Why do you think Carlos went nuts with power?

[docta lee]

Hi


Ok i first off i am not here to debunk Carlos...his works were and still are awesome


So save your attacks for your own personal war


From reading Amy Wallace's book The Sorcerers Apprentice a 2nd time i have concluded that Carlos lied to his disciples: he calls it controlled folly or
losing self importance...i think that is bullshit, this was a way he could get out of direct dealings with people a wimpy way of dealing with himself and
others A WARRIOR i think not ( not in his last 10 years anyway).




He was projectiing his fears onto his students, the oldest trick in the book for a cult leader.




I am not afraid to look at what is real with CC to say this i mean that his follwers in the end were not seeing the truith, he blured it on purpose.


So you may ask why is Amy truthful if she was one of the witches? well she is not now and she got out of it while others did not.


So her writings were from a place of balance, a place of reflection and a place of peace...this is why i believe her story.


Some of CC students went into mental wards when he cut them out of his inner circle and 4 of his closest ones took their own lives once he died!


They couldn't deal with life without him...how sad, how strange and how INSANE! WOW?????




Don Juan never spoke of suicide and if he did then he was a **** no matter how you look at it one should never take their life just because we can does not
mean we should.... EVER!


Florinda was apparently a student of Don Juan then she changed her story and said it was Carlos...come on that's a simple case of getting caught in your
own lies.


I suppose i get upset when i read her book, she loved Carlos and he loved her. I trust what she says is real...she has no reason to lie no reason to hurt just
to tell her story.


I get upset when i read how mean and ugly he was to his students and you know what! this was not sorcery! it was selfish and he did for personal gain . He told
his students to tell his/her parents to go to hell!! like c'mom thats just not cool people, unless these parents were abusive and sick but according to Amy
Carlos was was the one that was abusive


Or to say really disturbing things like your friends are only there for themselves so *** them! like that is really really scary **** to be putting into weak
minds of eager people who look up to you....HOW COULD HE DO THAT TO THEM?




I can truely say that i have been in postions where people have really looked up to me and i NEVER EVER did or would exploit that HOW COULD I ? HOW COULD YOU?
AND WHY DID CARLOS?


He could have


what happened to this man? was there just to many hot LA chicks around in his workshops and just wanted to *** like a monkey? so he lied and played games with
them all?


So i ask you my friends why do you think he went nuts with power?

[ARNWAY]

Maybe he did but not Juan Matus.




How would you handle such a gift of knowledge?




I think Carlos did OK considering and don't care what Amy stated unless she was a warrior, even though I have never read the book myself.




How can one assume that she was of balance and knowledgeable, and how would you act when you have a following?




I learned my true teachings from Juan Matus.

[seeitall]

what would Amy do if Castaneda would have thrown her in wild river not carrying


whether she will survive or not like Julian did to Juan ? Spent rest of her life


with psychoanalyst and wrote 5 books about it to get better ? I bet she would.


Sorry, but sorcery is not for wussies. They prefer to swim in warm cozy river of


**** until they suffocate.




BTW don Juan talked about suicide and yes he lied to his disciples too.


He was certainly a cult leader too.

[Bob May]

docta lee wrote:

"...what happened to this man? was there just to many hot LA chicks around in his workshops and just wanted to *** like a monkey? so he lied and played
games with them all?


So i ask you my friends why do you think he went nuts with power? ..."

Nothing out of the ordinary for cult leaders. His weaknesses concerning integrity and sex just showed themselves.


People at a certain level of learning seem to need someone to place between themselves and God.


Weak and dishonest teachers eat it up.

[Blue totem]

I`ve read Sorcerer`s Apprentice. It`s a dam shame what happened with Amy.


It`s simple, Carlos learned how to be an abusive cult leader by watching Don Juan.


Don Juan didn`t give a **** about anyone, and he had a very big ego...




Carlos learned from Don Juan...




Sometimes it amazes me to see people who want to be like Don Juan,


He was a lonely ass hole, somewhat knowledgeable, but not an example.

[ARNWAY]

Blue Totem your words are from a person that has armchair C.C. reader.>---------------------------Don Juan didn`t give a **** about anyone, and he had a
very big ego...




Carlos learned from Don Juan...




Sometimes it amazes me to see people who want to be like Don Juan,


He was a lonely ass hole, somewhat knowledgeable, but not an example.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




You my Sir are incorrect with your stupid assumption.




You have to be a warrior to understand.

[Blue totem]

arnway, why don't you take your head out of your ass.




I see that I hit a sweet spot with you, right...


You dum Don Juan wanna be.


Take example from Lone Wolf, he`s not an ass hole.


arnway, you unoriginal, pitiful ***...

[ARNWAY]

Blue Totem the difference between you and me is that I am content with my path as a warrior to point that I don't have to be guided or taught by anybody
anymore because of the movement of my AP.




You seemed confused about the teachings from Juan Matus from what you said.
.




Obviously you have missed the true teachings of Don Juan Matus if you were to state this.




Only a true warrior can really push my buttons.




It sounds like Asian or Zen is your path, you may fit better in Lujans club of non Toltecs.




I don't want to get into an argument about the integrity of Don Juan.

[Blue totem]

Much better Arway... You can express yourself without bad language and insults. Since you made an effort, I`ll erase my post on your warrior and druid songs.




You don't have to agree with me about Don Juan...




I have studied many path. I`ve read all CC`s book and CC related material. And many books by all of the witches. I think I have my place on shamanic warrior...




I love Castaneda`s books. But I don't agree with the philosophy of the characters. I think its obvious that many of CC`s characters have majors personality
flaws, including CC himself.




For that matter, the books are raw and dark, even violent, but very creative and original.

[seeitall]

What do you like about CC's boooks if you don't like the philosophy in them ?


Carlos being an **** ?

[docta lee]

i never said Carlos was an ****?

[grandspeculator]

Your question is quite appropiate Doc, so I'll put some effort in the answer:




For starters it never was a secret that Carlos was very indulgent in nature. Don Juan actually disliked him but in spite of that he trained him with all his
heart.




While he was under the direct influence of Don Juan Carlos was a fair apprentice. When Don Juan left him to work on his own Carlitos did as much as he could
but, in the end, like many others of that particular party of naguals, fell in indulgences and egotism.




But unlike the others of the "Brady Bunch" he was the apointed "nagual heir". This virtual crown made him much more self-important in his
own eyes and made him growingly deluded. To make things worst Don Juan stated that Carlos was the inheritor and all the others had to follow his lead.




As time went by and the party grew bored (this is my personal theory) they decided to disregard the long-standing rule of nagual apprenticeship: NO VOLUNTEERS




This was done in order to "end the line with style" and "help to bring about a general shift of the AP" but the truth of the matter is that
this single decision was the cause of the prophesied end.




The indulgences of Carlos grew with his following and finally gave him a premature death. He hurt his unprepared volunteers-disciples, destroyed himself and
ended HIS line of nagual seers. Aside of his books, Castaneda's legacy are a couple of institutions that teach magical passes, recapitulation and dreaming
to anyone.




For those who don't remember Don Juan once said in rather a violent manner to Carlos that DREAMING WAS NOT A GAME!




Not only it's not a game but a extremely dangerous thing to do if you are not sober about it.




For what is worth far better people fell in similar attitudes. Recently a greatly deluded Siddha Yogi that called himself Adi Da died. He was far more powerful
and evolved than Castaneda... and far more deluded. His first writings were regarded as great treaties of spirituality.




They can't handle their tonal... they don't bother to clean it up... and the so-called protector of the nagual ends up destroying them.




Wanna know something funny? Castaneda, at some point, thought to be a Death Defier. Funny as hell... with that degree of indulgence, how could he ever pull
that off?




No biggie... we can all try again in our next life.

[dreamways]

docta lee wrote:

i never said Carlos was an ****?
The one thing I thought was awesome about Carlos and his tensegrity circus was that it made fools out of everyone involved, it revealed
people's weakness of character very quickly. Carlos dealt with everyone according to what they were, Amy Wallace underestimated how much smarter Carlos
was than her, he treated her like a bimbo because that's all she is.

[grandspeculator]

dreamways wrote:


docta lee wrote:

i never said Carlos was an ****?
The one thing I thought was awesome about Carlos and his tensegrity circus was that it made fools out of everyone involved, it revealed
people's weakness of character very quickly. Carlos dealt with everyone according to what they were, Amy Wallace underestimated how much smarter Carlos
was than her, he treated her like a bimbo because that's all she is.

Well, the point that I usually want to make is that dealing with idiots is a waste of time and energy.




He was the smartest of all the dumb... big deal!




Smart is avoiding assholes and living at large, like Don Juan and the rest of the line did.




I'm thinking now that most of the so-called teachers are burn outs... people that tried the walk and at some point just gave up. For a consolation price
they use their occult development for tonal expansion.

[seeitall]

grandspeculator wrote:


dreamways wrote:


docta lee wrote:

i never said Carlos was an ****?
The one thing I thought was awesome about Carlos and his tensegrity circus was that it made fools out of everyone involved, it revealed
people's weakness of character very quickly. Carlos dealt with everyone according to what they were, Amy Wallace underestimated how much smarter Carlos
was than her, he treated her like a bimbo because that's all she is.

Well, the point that I usually want to make is that dealing with idiots is a waste of time and energy.




He was the smartest of all the dumb... big deal!




Smart is avoiding assholes and living at large, like Don Juan and the rest of the line did.





I find nothing smart in it. If you're impeccable, it does not matter whether you


deal with assholes or live like hermit Depends what you mission is.

[grandspeculator]

seeitall wrote:

I find nothing smart in it. If you're impeccable, it does not matter whether you


deal with assholes or live like hermit Depends what you mission is.

Nicely put. However not many real individuals have the mission of dealing with assholes. Within a crowd or on Antarctica, true individuals know
that assholes have little to learn from them.

[dreamways]

I think that you guys missed the point of what I was saying. Imagine how valuable it would be if you knew somebody who had the ability to hold up a mirror of
truth to you, to reveal to you exactly who and what you were. This is what Carlos was able to do for people, it was a transcendent gift, it was the nagual
working directly through him, sort of like the holy spirit if you like. What was the payoff for Carlos? He already got paid, he had an an iron clad bridge
across death given to him. Most people who try to do self analysis, for their own betterment, just lie to themselves, so they never improve anything, they
just rationalize everything. If you were fortunate enough to get anywhere near Carlos before he died, you had the possibility of being granted a quick, cold,
sober look at yourself, something you could take to the bank, a foundation of self knowledge. The people he treated as assholes were just being given the
right information. That was also true of the folks whom he identified as harboring exotic and unique energy. He was a goldmine of information really, but not
everyone wants to know the truth about themselves or anything else.

[grandspeculator]

dreamways wrote:

He was a goldmine of information really, but not everyone wants to know the truth about themselves or anything else.

That's my point. They approached the nagual with no will to change. They didn't want the truth. Castaneda's stupidity in this matter
was trying to give truth to someone who doesn't want it.






Don Juan: Volunteers are not welcome in the sorcerers' world, because they already
have a purpose of their own, which makes it particularly hard for them to relinquish their individuality. If the sorcerers' world demands ideas and
actions contrary to the volunteers' purpose, volunteers simply refuse to change.






In the end they all felt raped and abused. Some of them were, but it's their responsibility. They were ambitious
tonals, not awakening
naguals.




If your intent is not freedom, the result won't be freedom.




PS: As you know and did enlighten us in the matter, not all of Castaneda's students were fuck ups. Howard Lee learned the ways and was mature enough to
avoid being dragged into Castaneda's indulgent ****. One could say the same about Don Juan. The Nagual Julian was a warrior and a sorceror, but he
wasn't a seer. Don Juan out grew him.

[dreamways]

grandspeculator wrote:


dreamways wrote:

He was a goldmine of information really, but not everyone wants to know the truth about themselves or anything else.

That's my point. They approached the nagual with no will to change. They didn't want the truth. Castaneda's stupidity
in this matter was trying to give truth to someone who doesn't want it.






Don Juan: Volunteers are not welcome in the sorcerers' world, because they already
have a purpose of their own, which makes it particularly hard for them to relinquish their individuality. If the sorcerers' world demands ideas and
actions contrary to the volunteers' purpose, volunteers simply refuse to change.





In the end they all felt raped and abused. Some of them were, but it's their responsibility. They were ambitious
tonals, notawakening
naguals.




If your intent is not freedom, the result won't be freedom.




PS: As you know and did enlighten us in the matter, not all of Castaneda's students were fuck ups. Howard Lee learned the ways and was mature enough to
avoid being dragged into Castaneda's indulgent ****. One could say the same about Don Juan. The Nagual Julian was a warrior and a sorceror, but he
wasn't a seer. Don Juan out grew him.



Now, to unveil the biggest kick in the ass of all, just keep in mind that it was Carlos who presented everything that he, don Juan and Julian said
and did. The center of the entire story is don Juan, somebody who had a disdain for both humans and inorganic beings, both of god's creations, and
didn't believe in god either. But, everybody seems to think that he is the "good guy" in the story. Not even close.

[grandspeculator]

Now, to unveil the biggest kick in the ass of all, just keep in mind that it was Carlos who presented everything that he, don Juan and Julian said and did.
The center of the entire story is don Juan, somebody who had a disdain for both humans and inorganic beings, both of god's creations, and didn't
believe in god either. But, everybody seems to think that he is the "good guy" in the story. Not even close.
Don Juan was a good nagual, if anything. In his own words he didn't know how to help the tonal masses. He wanted, but just didn't know
how. Castaneda inadvertently help the tonal masses by giving out the ways of nagual seer-ship in the form of books. For every awakened nagual there is a number
of dozens of aberrated-tonals, but that's another history.




The "good guy/lady" in this puppet show is the puppeteer, The Death Defier




Ironically he/she is, at plain sight, the bad guy/lady.

[Bob May]

Hi Grand,




"Don Juan was a good nagual, if anything. In his own words he didn't know how to help the tonal masses. He wanted, but just didn't know how.
Castaneda inadvertently help the tonal masses by giving out the ways of nagual seer-ship in the form of books."




Don Juan knew the information would and in fact did go out through Carlos. It was Power that lead him to Carlos (or the other way round). And he also spoke of
the letting out of this knowledge not mattering too much because it was all dependent on personal power of the individual recieving the knowledge.


So in my way of seeing it Don Juan was "using" Carlos, Carlos was using Don Juan and Power was using both of them. It was time for the knowledge to
be made public.


I certainly made use of the knowledge.


No one was abusing anyone in his. (I'm strictly speaking here about the knowledge being published, though. Not Carlos' relationships with his followers
later on.)




As far as the knowledge itself, I believe much good and much damage has come as a result of it. It is dangerous knowledge and many got caught up in it too
early in life with no teacher or guidance available.

[grandspeculator]

Bob May wrote:

Hi Grand,




"Don Juan was a good nagual, if anything. In his own words he didn't know how to help the tonal masses. He wanted, but just didn't know how.
Castaneda inadvertently help the tonal masses by giving out the ways of nagual seer-ship in the form of books."




Don Juan knew the information would and in fact did go out through Carlos. It was Power that lead him to Carlos (or the other way round). And he also spoke
of the letting out of this knowledge not mattering too much because it was all dependent on personal power of the individual recieving the knowledge.


So in my way of seeing it Don Juan was "using" Carlos, Carlos was using Don Juan and Power was using both of them. It was time for the knowledge to
be made public.


I certainly made use of the knowledge.


No one was abusing anyone in his. (I'm strictly speaking here about the knowledge being published, though. Not Carlos' relationships with his
followers later on.)




As far as the knowledge itself, I believe much good and much damage has come as a result of it. It is dangerous knowledge and many got caught up in it too
early in life with no teacher or guidance available.
Yep, that's pretty much how things worked out. Everything worked as good as it could. Regrettably knowledge-of-power is forever a double edged
sword.




As for guidance you know how it works: If the apprentice is ready, the master appears.




Hopefully a number of individuals will become living nagual inheritors beyond Castaneda's line. There are quite a few, but most of them are self-important
tonals.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Western man is more given to caving into the pressure of the FI. As one becomes older and the FI has not been overcomed, the hold becomes wiser. It begins to
use different approaches into the warrior's mindset.




Castaneda became twisted by the effects of the death defier. Here the balance was shifted away from him once he returned from the hold of the Allies.


Not many of us including Don Juan could walk away from the allies and the death defier's power. He surpassed himself but lost his power in the end because
of what happened to him. Judge not too harshly. You walk in his shoes and see how well you fare.

[grandspeculator]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:

Western man is more given to caving into the pressure of the FI. As one becomes older and the FI has not been overcomed, the hold becomes wiser. It begins to
use different approaches into the warrior's mindset.




Castaneda became twisted by the effects of the death defier. Here the balance was shifted away from him once he returned from the hold of the Allies.


Not many of us including Don Juan could walk away from the allies and the death defier's power. He surpassed himself but lost his power in the end
because of what happened to him. Judge not too harshly. You walk in his shoes and see how well you fare.
I don't know about the rest of the guys and gals here, but the only thing that I disliked of Carlos was his cultish scheme. The rest is his
personal problem. If you are not harming anyone but yourself it's your problem alone. For his books I'm quite grateful and for his works he got quite a
lot (he was, after all, a millionaire).




As for the shoes: how can any of us walk in his, being ours quite heavy on their own?

[Mornings Son]

I still believe that Carlos was a tool to disperse the Knowledge of Toltec's Shamans.


He did that really impeccable and I very thankful for that.


Unlike Dreamways I never meet the guy so its a bit difficult to judge him for me...