If you real want to master it, then

[Mornings Son]

One has to put forth Intent and act continuously on it - If you wanna master dreaming or other skills

[Eilias123]

Orly?

[Eilias123]

In other words. Look for synchronicity or signs of spirit and follow them without question. if anything just do that. Write your dreams down in dtail. Even the seemingly insignificant ones. Get lucid and talk to allies, share dreams with people, learn lessons from existing members of the tenant. Find simple things from dreams that you can repeat in your waking life.



Q. but Elias what will people think of me? they'll call me crazy.



A. So what, are you really going to let what others think of you prevent you from your own personal freedom?



Q. But Elias, What if this path leads to me being on the street for a while?



A. As long as it has heart trust the path you are following will lead you to enlightening situations no matter how bad it seems.



Q. but Elias, I read somewhere that doing these things will lead to blah blah blah flying spaghetti monster.



A. Are you really going to let what people say or some book define your own experience and defy what your your own very senses are telling you? Why don't you find out for yourself what is what?

[SelfHealedMadman]

~
Hi Elias!  Some great information you present here coming from an excellent Dreamer!
As I've just a bit more time, may I ask you a few more questions in regards to Dreaming?  Please stick with me as I'm a questioning fool today    I'd just like you to break this down a bit further, as again, what you state is excellent advice, but it seems you're giving the information out in pretty big chunks.  If you could break it down for us it would be much appreciated!
Let's see....
"Get Lucid."  Ah, good.  I may sound truly idiotic for asking this, but can you explain your definition of lucidity?  I've heard it's knowing one's Dreaming, being awake in Dreaming, but then I've also heard that this may not be Dreaming the Energetic Body and such.  Can you clarify this?  I've also heard of Dreaming specific chakras and such.  How's that accomplished and does it have anything to do with lucidity?  Also, how does one know if the Dreaming Scene is of ones own imigination or another world?  Thank you sir.
"...and talk to allies".  I'm assuming you're referring to allies as mentioned in Castaneda's work?  As well as, why talk to them?  Where are they and how does one go about finding them?  Of what value do they hold?  I also recall from The Art of Dreaming that IB's are allies, right?  Or, are they just another variety of IB's?  From what CC said, talking in Dreaming is very powerful, and what one says is pretty set in stone.  So of course this leads me to, what would one say to an ally?  Should one choose ones words wisely, or just talk to them as you mention?
"...share dreams with people..."  I know I'm thick in the head today, but what people?  Your life partner?  Other people in Dreaming?  Why would you share them?  Clarification?  I've also heard that talking about ones Dreams makes the Dreams lose its power, or makes it tougher to reach Dreaming again.  Is this true? 
"...learn lessons from existing members of the tenant."  Ok, now you've stumped me.  I've not read that thread on exisiting members of the tenant, so my bad.  Can you give us a quick run-down on who these are?  What lessons do they provide?  Where does one find in Dreaming these existing members?  How do you summon them if you can't find them?  If one does find them, are they willing to 'share' the lessons or do we have to get out the can of cosmic whoop-ass and water-board them?  Are these existing members of the tenant like people, or allies, in which we just hold a conversation with them?  Do we speak to them or communicate telepathically? 
"...Find simple things from dreams that you can repeat in your waking life."  An, nice!  What if I'm Dreaming of another world, or something that can't be repeated in this waking world?  Also, let's assume I have poor Dream recall.  What tips do you have to recall Dreams?  Also, what's the value of repeating simple things from Dreams in our waking life?
Thanks man!
SHM

[Mornings Son]

Eilias: 'orly?'
MS:'Yeah rly!'
If you do not put forth Intent and act continuously on it (like year out year in) then whatever you do will be half baked.
A firm determination is needed to realize results!

[Eilias123]

That's a lot of questions SHM. The thing is I know that you already know a lot of the answers to those questions. I don't consider myself a foremost authority on anything really. so my advice for people is to find out those answers themselves. I have posted a lot of articles in the dreaming section written by me and some others that also help answer those questions as well. My challenge to people is that they find out for themselves what is what. The information is definitely out there. if one seeks one shall find.



to answer some of those questions in short: Every dreaming place is "real". You can visit someones dream "inner world" and be in the dream they are having inside their head, and it is a solid dreaming place. and they can also visit your inner world.



For recall and lucidity: there is a wealth of books written by people and also a number of websites and forums that have many techniques for achieving this. Start with Stephen Laberge, Robert waggoner, Lucid blog, and Dreamviews.com forums. Everyone is different so the same technique won't work for everyone. find what works for you.



Existing members of the Tenant are the ones from Don Juan's crow lineage that "jumped past the eagle free" so to speak. They are available in dreaming. You know them by Juan matus, don genaro, Silvio Manuel, Elias, just to name a few. What do they have to offer? Go find out. They aren't as easy to recall as your best friend, so be patient when learning to recall them.



for allies: I call any dream friend an ally. My advice is to don't be limited to thinking that the only real beings that exist in dreams are Inorganic beings that carlos interacted with and other dreamers. The dream Universe is teaming with sentience of all kinds.



It all begins and ends with intent. This isn't something you answer after dreaming for a week or months or even a year. you have to be on the ball for a long time before many things become clear.

[SelfHealedMadman]

~
"That's a lot of questions SHM".  It was.  Wasn't the Intent to bury you or anyone with them, either 
"The thing is I know that you already know a lot of the answers to those questions".  Ah, I was rushed and just put the questions out there.  Regardless of what I know or don't know, not the issue.  The Intent was, further clarification, step-by-step, for those who may need it broken down a bit further.  As I mentioned, what you said, IMHO, was provided in big chunks. 
Here's the thing, imho of course    Most who I speak to in regards to Dreaming, cannot Dream at will.  If this were me, and it was at one time, I'd put everything else aside and focus on just this.  How can one do anything in Dreaming if they can't reach it, or manage the Dreaming attention one has?  Once again, my opinion and what worked for me.
"...so my advice for people is to find out those answers themselves".  This is a re-occuring theme in your reply and I agree.  Yet, if this is the case, why mention anything at all about Dreaming or anything else? 
A logical answer to this would be, "well, when one does encounter this or that in Dreaming, one would then be prepared to handle the situation with prior knowledge or advice".  Yet, doesn't that fly in the face of, well, just find the answers for yourself as we say?
It's circular thinking.  How could one possibly know what to do if they didn't have any prior knowledge, yet, doesn't that prior knowledge tait what they will then see?  If Carlos tells us Allies look like candle sticks, and we have no other information on what an Ally looks like, if one encounters a said Ally won't it look like what we've already been told it looks like, a candle stick? 
What's 'real'?  Does our perception create reality?  Is there anything 'real' 'out there'?  Is there any seperation between 'us' and 'it'?  Is there an infinite amount of worlds or is it just one world, split infinitely by perception?  Just a few 'thoughts' to take with us on our journey 
As to the existing members of the Tenant, I've Dreamed with a group that sounds similiar.  I'm not going to label them as it's really not the point.  I'm in the process of transcribing the conversations we have and learning from it. 
Thanks again for your reply!
SHM
P.S. - Elias, could I ask you to hop over to the unconcerned Nagual thread and reply there as well?  What's your Intent for stating you're a Nagual?  What do the exisiting members of the Tenant say about this?

[Eilias123]

SHM. I'm not going to invest time in an intellectual debate with you.



I went into my dreaming with only CC's prior knowledge. and much of that I had to throw away in order to come to the place i am at right now, myself. A lot I learned from testing what others said. But most of it I learned on my own based on personal experience. Anyone can learn this for themselves, the tools are out there, No one needs me or anyone else to clarify what their own senses are telling them. The tools that I, and many others have laid out are out there. Many of them are in the New dreaming folder. If you and other people are too lazy to read and apply them, that's not my problem. And I'm not going to repeat myself over and over when the information is already there.
 As to A nagual status: I never stated that I was. What I said that APERRENTLY, I was pointed out to OTHERS as being one. I don't really KNOW the answer myself. I'm leaving it open. And what I can tell you, is that I don't really wish to be one.

[SelfHealedMadman]

~
"SHM. I'm not going to invest time in an intellectual debate with you".
Did I propose a debate?  If so, I didn't see it.  Above, I was just putting my two cents worth, my opinions out there. 
"If you and other people are too lazy to read and apply them, that's not my problem. And I'm not going to repeat myself over and over when the information is already there".
Defensive much?
"As to A nagual status: I never stated that I was. What I said that APERRENTLY, I was pointed out to OTHERS as being one. I don't really KNOW the answer myself".
Ok, I read somewhere that you stated you were a Nagual.  My bad. 
Not my Intent to ruffle your feathers, I thought we'd have a discussion.
Thanks again for your time!
SHM

[SelfHealedMadman]

~ 
Oh, here it is, your comments that led me astray.  (No worries, it happens to me all the time  )  
Elias:  “Had a rather abstract dream about manuel last night. Apperntly I've been pointed out to a few of becoming a four pronged Nagual. In this dream our energy bodies seemed to be sized up. His was much larger than mine, but still the same feeling that we are both Naguals”.  
Modern Nagualism Folder  
Topic:  The Nagual Manuel, reply #76

[Eilias123]

I was just repeating what the dream told me. Often I write dreams down and let information flow without thinking about it or judging it, this way the information is less biased to what I'm thinking.
 i'll answer the question about prior knowledge. I think having lots of Prior knowledge about dreams doesn't really adequately prepare you for the experience. In fact prior knowledge can actually hinder people's progress because they walk into the experience with certain expectations, only to find again and again their expectations aren't met. Many wind up frustrated because of this and give up altogether because they are trying to pit their own experience against someone elses experience. and because the picture doesn't match, they think they are doing something wrong. They, in fact,  aren't doing anything wrong, but they don't realize it, because they aren't trusting what their own experience is telling them. They trust someone elses picture and model completely without learning to rely on their own... That's insanity. The only thing that can prepare you is more experience. In the start it is like navigating the woods in complete darkness, it's blind and scary, but if you don't give up and you don't die, you begin to see clearer picture as to where you are going.
 you can read and have prior knowledge about any skill but that won't prepare you for the experience. You can read all you want about learning to ski, how to turn and slow down etc. But none of that helps you until you take the time looking like a baffoon on the ski hill.  You read in the manual "to slow down or turn shift one foot down the slope and slowly turn" So you try it but you turn too much at first, you begin losing control. You begin falling off the ski's alot on the beginner hill, until after much frustration, something in your body clicks. and you make a correct turn and slow down. Now you know what it feels like in your body to turn the skiis and slow to a stop. Everything you read about skiing before is now just black letters. Now you truly know what it FEELS like to turn on your skiis. After that you search for the same feeling and technique to slow down and then it works again. Then you do it over and over again without thinking about it.
 dreaming is a skill set just like any other skill that you learn. people can provide tools on how to reach and explore dreaming, but not one can tell you exactly what will happen or what you will experience.

[SelfHealedMadman]

~



Thanks for the reply, Elias! Yes, I understand your first paragraph.



As to the rest, great! I've the same example as you use, just substitute skiing for swimming



Thanks again!

[another spirit]

shm - knowledge like dj mentions is on the same footing. known or unknown. perhaps this answers your question about getting knowledge without having it on the basis of having it.

just sent you some mescalito hope it helps answer your questions better.

its crazy some people dont want to be a nagual. having a psychic conversation with this kid yesterday as he tries to *** me with a flyer. just kept repeating about how he knows he doesnt have a heart. and i say like wtf are you doing? and he points to a chair and laughs. 'look, its a chair'. stupid.

just saying if you want to sell your energy for something else then go ahead. but the nagual is a part of ourself - nagual * tonal - and to say that we wont be that is idiotic.

elias. without judging. dont waste your energy. unless literally you have no heart. which is understandable too. 'poison kiddos' theyre called. by this guy. but for this guy just letting you know that there is a position where one has literally no idea about themself. their desires. any terminology. their own power or nagual. their own dream capabilities. their own heart. future & energy. all of that can be obscured. hopefully not just by an injured spirit, no, though that was a part of it for 'this guy'. it was just a matter of being lost in the unknown. know on another thread you claimed that you never claimed to be impeccable. still hoping that doesn't mean you aren't. if you are impeccable no matter how lost you are you will turn up right.

[another spirit]

[Guest]