the end never justifies the means

[shamanka]

living the path of heart, know that each moment is a beginning and middle and and end in itself, therefore lack of self responsibility about the methods that you use to reach your goal, lead to accumulated consequences of your actions. each moment of choice may be checked for perspective and personal agenda.

one mistake can be rectified by going back and unpicking the effects on others...but a stream of choices made from an illusionary right of individual'will' can cause multiple effects on self, others and the bigger picture.


Aligning of all your universes requires acting from this understanding. You wish to receive your highest potential?, own your full empowerment? Then each and every step has to align with that intent, to the best of your ability in every 'now' moment.

[watergaze]

I totally agree. This has been on my mind for weeks now as I have been observing things recently. I think many forget this simple and true proverb.

For example, since we are in the Stalking section let's go into that, many think shaking and breaking others in order to get them where they want them is a good method. The terrible kind of stalkers justify their means by claiming they have helped the person achieve a better state-end (or that they wanted that but it went south lol). Another person should never be the judge of that - never be a judge of whether something was/will be worth it for you or not.

[Guest]

To propose a scenario:

1. Person A is in the midst of an emotional moment.

2. Person B shows up to fix Person A through cruel stalking.

3. Person A defends themselves by engaging the stalk, to push back Person B, so that emotional turmoil will end.

4. Person B defends themselves by engaging the stalk, to push back Person A, so that emotional turmoil will end.

Neither Person A or Person B are perfect. Each is working on something. Each is justified within their own perspectives. Each are not justified by external perspectives. Everyone is trying to judge what is right, correct, appropriate, or decent behavior.

Maybe it is time to stop judging and thinking--and act.

If someone is inappropriate, address it. If someone hurts your feelings, say so. Cruel stalks occur when people are not giving themselves enough time to rest and recover from emotional turmoil. If feelings are hurt, express it, allow the person committing the offense to acknowledge and re-direct themselves, and when this occurs forgive them. If it doesn't occur, then implement the step program (limit posts, warn, ban--or any other procedure).

Personally, I know I often turn something minor (for others) into something huge (for me). Some things which are huge (for others), don't bother me at all. Everyone is different. Individuals vary in terms of personal principles, values, ethics, discipline, and appropriateness. Those things likely can't be enforced as they are internal mechanisms. We can't force people to change, we can only say, "These are our expectations for behavior, if you want to be here follow them. If not, we'll give you an opportunity to adapt to our rules and if you still can't learn our culture then you'll be removed." This approach makes it very impersonal and keeps the judgement focused on addressing the behavioral features instead of the internal mechanisms.

WG, will you be addressing internal mechanisms?

I'm uncertain how you would govern internal mechanisms in others. I can't imagine many people who would admit to being a monster. It's one of those things which often goes unseen within the self. I admit it because I recognize my monster tendencies. I'm willing and able to put those tendencies into words and share them with others to help them better understand me. I haven't met many who are willing to do this. For those unwilling to acknowledge, share, and address those tendencies then you'll need to devise a way to do this on your own (which is tedious). It's easier to address the behavior component instead of internal mechanisms. Internal mechanisms eventually find a way of manifesting into behavior anyhow. If there is an issue, it'll surface eventually.

With Regard to the Site:
Governing or placing judgment on internal mechanisms is almost the same as trying to govern or place judgement on dreaming experiences with a group. There are some areas we can't reach via the tonal. As owner of Sorcery, your realm is the site. It's inefficient to address every individual's internal mechanisms--restricting judgement to behavior will make things easier and more manageable.

With Regard to Personal Life:
The moments when judging internal mechanisms is useful is for personal boundaries. If there are people who cause you an excessive degree of inner turmoil, then distancing yourself is likely an excellent idea.

Personal Note and Opinion (my two-cents):
I recognize I'm someone who causes and has caused you a lot of inner turmoil. Distancing yourself from me was/is an appropriate response. Your personal friendship with me does create a conflict of interest between how you manage me within the scope of the site. Finding a way to separate the two will lessen the turmoil. You seem to have found an approach to this by being impersonal; I noticed the ADMIN tag has been removed That was a productive decision. You've separated friendship from duty.

I've been in positions where I was forced to do that (and thank God it never was internet based, but career based). It's not easy separating duty from emotions. Friends will understand when you discipline them for screwing up (after they've had time to cool off). If they don't understand, then they don't deserve you as a friend. That's been my perspective on things, which may or may not be ideal for others. The way I see things is I have a responsibility to many. If I put the MANY at risk for the FEW, then I'm doing something wrong. I'm hurting more than I'm supporting. I aim to help the MANY at the expense of the FEW.

In this respect, maybe the end justifies the means--I'm uncertain.

In a global perspective, if we were a planet of peace then we would not need to go to war. However, we are not a planet of peace yet. We can live in individual peace, but when the war arrives on our doorstep, action or inaction must occur. Inaction results in death. Action results in war. If a country is unwilling to fight for independence and/or survival, they'll be overtaken. I know it seems backwards, but the way to peace sometimes can be war. Just as the way to order, sometimes involves chaos. These aren't typically nice ways either.

Context and what we're hoping to achieve is important to consider when deciding if we're taking a personal or impersonal approach to judging others. When thinking of the ends, means, and justification it's ideal to consider that our personal opinions should be impersonal assessments when performing a duty. When we're determining something personal then opinions should weigh more heavily.

It's easy to say the end never justifies the means when the perspective is entirely personal. It's easy to say the end justifies the means when the perspective is entirely duty oriented. In the scope of the site (Sorcery) it's better to decide if that's a service of duty or services the self--once that's known then the actions flowing from that perspective will be easier to identify.

There are things greater than the self. Sometimes we have to choose whether we support the whole (the many) or the part (the self). Ideally we can support both. Unfortunately there are times when we're forced to choose. The only wrong choice is the choice made in opposition to the self. Accountability resides internally, not externally. Unfortunately duty has a tendency to be isolating as duty frequently requires the sacrifice of niceties.

[glance left]

I've got the karmic net running every which-a-way in terms of accumulation of "misaligning my universes", it's clear. I guess we all do in one way or another. What a mess! Where to start picking at the knot? It easy for me to fret over stuff like this...which, of course, leads to me putting it off....numbing out to momentarily forget that its there. Anything to avoid the seemingly impossible task.

Silence brought a solution, thankfully.....start in the center of the karmic mess and just stay there, in that center. The center being the "moment" moment at hand, as alluded to above. The mess just seems to unravel from the inside out when I simply acquiesce right smack in the middle of what's going on.

[Amy Teroczi]

(watergaze) "I totally agree.."   
 
  Huh? You seem to misunderstand shamanka.

   I agree completely with shamanka too (in her syntax).  Think carefully here:  "each moment is a beginning and middle and end in itself"

The key here hinges on the words "lack of self responsibility" (about the methods).

What is the context?  shamanka's answer- "living the path of heart"
In this thread title she is not speaking to a moral or social context which you imply.   

  To understand shamanka, know she assigns no stipulations as to what means or methods; no restrictions are insinuated.   

   "There will be an accumulation of consequences for actions that go unchecked {in conjunction with lack of self responsibility}"  Clearly, a self that lacks cognizance of responsibility assumes an illusary position, or an 'ill will,' that likely causes detrimental effects.  
   Too, this doesn't preclude that acting in conjunction with sufficient self responsibility could not disrupt others, or that such avoidance would even be a required standard.


   shamanka indicates to align your universes, your potential, and your empowerment with THE understanding articulated.  She is effectively saying: make it your intent (before all other intentions) to practice each moment in awareness of responsibility... that this is how one owns empowerment and properly aligns their own universe.



    

  ESPECIALLY- Given the nature of this forum, (whatever the methods) it is pointless (and antithetical) to judge whether or not an individual acted faithfully to his or her understood self responsibility.  

    

   Now, this matter is quite apart from the protocol of how others wish to administer the site.  That is an entirely different subject.  The work you and other moderators do is appreciated.




  (watergaze)  "...Another person should never be the judge of that - never be a judge of whether something was/will be worth it for you or not."  

      I disagree.  A very simple example:  You let go of the bicycle against your child's wishes.  The child discovers they are now riding a bicycle for the first time.  Sure, it could be the child falls.  
   If one clearly perceives an auspicious opportunity, one can (and sometimes should) be the judge for another.   Duly considering risk/reward, stalking another into an advantageous position, is more of an obligatory responsibility than a transgression.

   Shaking and breaking, huh?  {Laughter}   


"Where you choose to place your feet , Others shall follow, Watch your own step Arise from within your heart , cup held steady ,

Take your inheritance , souls purpose , Anything so easy for you , for me, natural , make now each component aware of its connection , bring union of each into whole , no longer flooded by sounds of weakness , overcome by the authentic which has come , Dust settles , sight clears for what must be done , ears hear for what belongs or not in its place to become"

(messengerpidgeon)

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