11-21-2010, 12:00 AM
~
Seren: "As I see it, the purpose of these forums is communication, however, this is thwarted if, the contributors use terms others cannot understand. Could we please, have a rational discussion? I'm a simpleton, and cannot get my head around your obscure New Age abstractions".
SHM: Now, here's my disclaimer prior to any comments. Please understand that I'm not picking on anyone with my comments. Not even Shamwow, in which your post Seren was directed. I've not read the initial post nor do I care to. If something read below thumps your ego a bit, perhaps it's something to be recapped. I've read enough here to get the gist of what's occuring though...
Terms that others cannot understand. Good one. Long ago several of us created another forum (actually it was a mailing list, pre-dating forums) using this concept call Syntax. Another syntax, or The Other Syntax or something like that. It's a common theme in just about everything. As I'm in marketing I take notice as it's a great selling point. Create a bunch of new words no-one understands, lump them together with some emotional keywords that drive straight at what the target market wants and you've got a winner! They come running, eyes glazed over, drool dripping off their chin, wallets and purses open just begging you to take their money. I chuckle, but I'm also dead serious.
New Age mumbo jumbo, Zen, Spirituality, Nagualism....heck, even established religions. Create your own line of bullshit and you're a winner! It's based in positioning, differentiation and focusing on the target market. Who wants to be main-stream? Pffft. Not I! I'm special! I need special treatment, and since you're spewing a bunch of **** that I don't or could ever understand, that's for me! Heaven forbid you sit your ass down and meditate or gaze or whatever for an hour a day.
Now, a couple of key points in regards to this. What's really cool if you are the one making up the terms is that you can use them anyway you'd like! Seldom is there a clear definition of said words, so of course the author can use them anyway they want. It's kind of like making up the rules as you go along. How cool is that?? You can never get pinned down, even with your own words! "Oh, I didn't mean that..." "It's not like that..." See how this goes? It can never be validated either! Who the hell wants that? It's much more fun spewing lines of bullshit than to ever accomplish anything! What's to accomplish?? I've got it all right here in manby pamby land!
Oh, and of course the benefit mentioned above: differentiation. It's an attention getter, that's all. Join my cult and drink more kool-aid.
Now what's really entertaining is to watch the dipshits who follow along, assuming they understand this rubbish. "Oh yes, it's like that..." "I agree and had the same exact experience last week!" How could they possibly understand it when so few of the authors even do? It's tough enough to get consensus on an established word, let alone a new one.
Now the trick to all of this, the true key that unlocks all the doors to a great following (which it's all about, of course), is to again make up some cool sounding word and have it tie, indirectly, to another known word, a word that's usually powerful. Here are a few good words that would relate to this group: Nagual. The Double. Dreaming. Stalking. (n)agual.
Let's take the Double. Let's now call it the Other. Oh, and I forgot to mention, you can also directly label the concept with a direct name. Like, my Double's name is Enrique. Now, the Other or even Enrique can do all sorts of cool ****. Why? Well, it's my name or label! I'm now exempt from having to follow what CC wrote. I make my own rules! Again, isn't this cool???
Now another important aspect of this, well for the good ones at least, is you've got to be creative. You also have to have a core understanding to some degree of the prelinary concept you are changing the name of. Then, wala! You've got it! You can now spin your line of **** from here to the moon! You can't be questioned. You can't be verified. "No, I'm not a Nagual like CC, I'm based on, bla, bla, bla." "Oh, the rule of the Double in meeting face to face with myself doesn't apply, we have tea and krumpets daily and get along right fine!" "Oh yes, there are fifty six kinds of Dreaming, astral, energetic, etc., etc., and to manage one's way through the gates of Dreaming (oh, and btw, there's not only 7 gates, but 7 gates for each of the 14 trillion levels of attention) you must send out your chakras to the 18th attention, slay fifteen virgins at the house of the rising sun and circle back around yer anus. Or is that Uranus?
Now of course, as you can tell, Dreaming is my favorite topic. Well, my favorite really isn't Dreaming but what I'll call habitual lying. I've watched over the years how the dreamers are starting to unfold. I've read some pretty wild ass stuff. Why is dreaming cool? Well of course, it can't be verified! Well, actually it can if you're a true Dreamer, but that's not the topic. The topic is habitual liars. Why would you even think of making **** up? To gain a following? Doesn't this sort of ring true with the copied post below? Keep this in mind: You're not lying to us but to yourself. Let me know how that works out for ya' when the Eagle's nibbling on your toes.
Why isn't talking about the mud, blood and beer cool? Or, Stalking? Well ****, who wants to talk about their own problems, right? It's much more cool to make **** up. Or just slather the love and light topping on it and call it spiritual evolution. Pppffffttt. This is why I just love Docta Lee. He's one of the few 'true' ones in chat. He got a problem, you're going to hear about it. There's no spiritual mumbo jumbo sugar coated bullshit there. He's a question, he asks. Something bothering him, it comes out. Thanks, Doc.
Let's continue on....
Now don't get me wrong, new experiences and new terms are needed. (Although I'm unsure if there's ever anything new. Perhaps discovering or unconvering something that is 'new' may be a better way to put it.) The real issue is that people just really don't got it. Not, they don't get it. Sure, on an intellectual level they get it. But then haven't got it. Furthermore it never will be 'got' until they die. Sure, it can be 'got' while still living, but who wants to do that?? That takes effort. Effort in looking at the Self, then of course, doing something with it.
Of course this leads me to re-post, yet again, an oldie. Read very carefully please and understand this. Now of course this is in regards to book learning. Yet, it's the same as creating your own line of **** in your head.
"Book learning, like any other sort of second-hand learning, while perfect for things of an academic nature, is far, far less than perfect for things of an experiential nature.
Two down sides of book learning concerning things of an experiential nature are: (1) less than the full experience itself gets into the book and (2) things other than the experience itself become identified as the experience. [Pay attention to this second point. First, from what I see, there's a serious lack of ANY experience, thus the need for making words up.]
The struggle of Carlos Castaneda in this regard can be seen in his reinterpretation of events described in early books when he wrote the later books. An intellectualization of the experience results for the reader. The serious reader who attempts to take it all to heart can become the academic king of the words in the books and still not get the message, for the study of the books relies on linear thought while the subject and message are completely non-linear. Dilucidation is the de-intellectualization of the experience, the process through which the reader can build his or her own bridge to the experience. It, the experience itself, is available. Getting it through the intellectualizations of the writer is the challenge, and Carlos Castaneda is a very intellectual fellow. [....which the reader can build his or her own bridge to the experience.] [This is the same for the assknobs who choose to 'agree' with pure mumbo jumbo, let alone an actual experience.]
Yet "getting it" is only the beginning of the challenge. Getting that you got it is the other half. "Getting it" itself will happen to any reader who gives a few hours to the writings of Carlos Castaneda, briefly, from time to time, when something happens in the reader's life which takes him or her back to the moments of the similar experience which the writer shared. That "getting it" lasts until something happens, although the reader will accumulate a string of such moments over time if the thoughts of the writer stick within his or her awareness. From that string of moments of "getting it" the reader builds confidence that what he or she got is "it". [It's the same with the fairy tale tellers and their followers.]
A reader may even come to believe that they got it. That is a pity. All they have is a structure which supports itself. That self-supporting structure they can carry around and draw from to show themselves and others how everything all fits so well into that intellectual understanding of the non-linear they derived from their reading. They have nothing. The very structure they carry around is the enemy of the purpose(s) which brought about the writings in the first place. Their academic success in the mastery of the finer points of the intellectualizations in the writings, in their mains, makes them immune to the basic tests which don Juan put forth for Carlos Castaneda to face early on, the enemies. Fear makes them hold on to their book learning. Clarity makes their book learning seem adequate. Power results from their mastery of the intellectualizations in the books. Knowledge, to some extent, comes with that package as well. There they are, thinking they are the masters of the teachings, and they are stuck before all the enemies yet once again. What a pity. Dillucidation is their way out. Yet they are terrified of Dillucidation. They would have to turn in their diploma and start all over again, learning to unwalk the rules in order to find the truths beneath them that bind them altogether with a simple picture that holds it all yet has no rules. Only then do they truly get it and get that they got it. Until then their plight is such a great pity".
Now, what have I missed?
A random thought comes to mind. I’m basically a marketer of information. In marketing, we’re taught to provoke people’s emotions, as that’s what they buy with. People buy with emotion and justify it with their logic. Focus on their wants, not their needs.
This is basically what I see here.
You focus on your wants, not what you need. Yet, shouldn’t it be the other way around? Do what you need to do, not what you want to do? Work hard enough on what you need to do then you can do what you want to do? Makes sense to me…
There are two courses of action for you now.
Get pissed off and re-act to this post.
Or…
Get fucking real. Stop lying to yourself and everyone else about your Dreaming abilities or your Zen beliefs or your path of love and light or whatever you’re hung up on. Do something other than give advice. (Shitty advice at that.)
Now, regardless of your option, here’s what you need to do if you’ve made it this far through all this mental masturbation.
First, grab a pencil and a piece of paper. Off the top of your head, write down your exact feelings in regards to this post. All of it. Then, add this to your recapitulation list and figure out what your problems are and resolve them. Yes, these are your issues, not mine. Any ‘speed-bump’ that occurred while reading this in your mind is an issue for you.
Second, re-read this post and take notes on every speculative thought, judgmental attitude, condescending attitude, name calling wanker statements, etc., etc. Can you see any of this in yourself? Add THIS to your recap list and deal with it.
Third, please post your own ***-ups in this thread. What do you have to hide? Who are you hiding it from?
Us, our yourself?
Now, perhaps, we can have a discussion that resides outside mamby-pamby land, ya’ jackwagon!
SHM
Seren: "As I see it, the purpose of these forums is communication, however, this is thwarted if, the contributors use terms others cannot understand. Could we please, have a rational discussion? I'm a simpleton, and cannot get my head around your obscure New Age abstractions".
SHM: Now, here's my disclaimer prior to any comments. Please understand that I'm not picking on anyone with my comments. Not even Shamwow, in which your post Seren was directed. I've not read the initial post nor do I care to. If something read below thumps your ego a bit, perhaps it's something to be recapped. I've read enough here to get the gist of what's occuring though...
Terms that others cannot understand. Good one. Long ago several of us created another forum (actually it was a mailing list, pre-dating forums) using this concept call Syntax. Another syntax, or The Other Syntax or something like that. It's a common theme in just about everything. As I'm in marketing I take notice as it's a great selling point. Create a bunch of new words no-one understands, lump them together with some emotional keywords that drive straight at what the target market wants and you've got a winner! They come running, eyes glazed over, drool dripping off their chin, wallets and purses open just begging you to take their money. I chuckle, but I'm also dead serious.
New Age mumbo jumbo, Zen, Spirituality, Nagualism....heck, even established religions. Create your own line of bullshit and you're a winner! It's based in positioning, differentiation and focusing on the target market. Who wants to be main-stream? Pffft. Not I! I'm special! I need special treatment, and since you're spewing a bunch of **** that I don't or could ever understand, that's for me! Heaven forbid you sit your ass down and meditate or gaze or whatever for an hour a day.
Now, a couple of key points in regards to this. What's really cool if you are the one making up the terms is that you can use them anyway you'd like! Seldom is there a clear definition of said words, so of course the author can use them anyway they want. It's kind of like making up the rules as you go along. How cool is that?? You can never get pinned down, even with your own words! "Oh, I didn't mean that..." "It's not like that..." See how this goes? It can never be validated either! Who the hell wants that? It's much more fun spewing lines of bullshit than to ever accomplish anything! What's to accomplish?? I've got it all right here in manby pamby land!
Oh, and of course the benefit mentioned above: differentiation. It's an attention getter, that's all. Join my cult and drink more kool-aid.
Now what's really entertaining is to watch the dipshits who follow along, assuming they understand this rubbish. "Oh yes, it's like that..." "I agree and had the same exact experience last week!" How could they possibly understand it when so few of the authors even do? It's tough enough to get consensus on an established word, let alone a new one.
Now the trick to all of this, the true key that unlocks all the doors to a great following (which it's all about, of course), is to again make up some cool sounding word and have it tie, indirectly, to another known word, a word that's usually powerful. Here are a few good words that would relate to this group: Nagual. The Double. Dreaming. Stalking. (n)agual.
Let's take the Double. Let's now call it the Other. Oh, and I forgot to mention, you can also directly label the concept with a direct name. Like, my Double's name is Enrique. Now, the Other or even Enrique can do all sorts of cool ****. Why? Well, it's my name or label! I'm now exempt from having to follow what CC wrote. I make my own rules! Again, isn't this cool???
Now another important aspect of this, well for the good ones at least, is you've got to be creative. You also have to have a core understanding to some degree of the prelinary concept you are changing the name of. Then, wala! You've got it! You can now spin your line of **** from here to the moon! You can't be questioned. You can't be verified. "No, I'm not a Nagual like CC, I'm based on, bla, bla, bla." "Oh, the rule of the Double in meeting face to face with myself doesn't apply, we have tea and krumpets daily and get along right fine!" "Oh yes, there are fifty six kinds of Dreaming, astral, energetic, etc., etc., and to manage one's way through the gates of Dreaming (oh, and btw, there's not only 7 gates, but 7 gates for each of the 14 trillion levels of attention) you must send out your chakras to the 18th attention, slay fifteen virgins at the house of the rising sun and circle back around yer anus. Or is that Uranus?
Now of course, as you can tell, Dreaming is my favorite topic. Well, my favorite really isn't Dreaming but what I'll call habitual lying. I've watched over the years how the dreamers are starting to unfold. I've read some pretty wild ass stuff. Why is dreaming cool? Well of course, it can't be verified! Well, actually it can if you're a true Dreamer, but that's not the topic. The topic is habitual liars. Why would you even think of making **** up? To gain a following? Doesn't this sort of ring true with the copied post below? Keep this in mind: You're not lying to us but to yourself. Let me know how that works out for ya' when the Eagle's nibbling on your toes.
Why isn't talking about the mud, blood and beer cool? Or, Stalking? Well ****, who wants to talk about their own problems, right? It's much more cool to make **** up. Or just slather the love and light topping on it and call it spiritual evolution. Pppffffttt. This is why I just love Docta Lee. He's one of the few 'true' ones in chat. He got a problem, you're going to hear about it. There's no spiritual mumbo jumbo sugar coated bullshit there. He's a question, he asks. Something bothering him, it comes out. Thanks, Doc.
Let's continue on....
Now don't get me wrong, new experiences and new terms are needed. (Although I'm unsure if there's ever anything new. Perhaps discovering or unconvering something that is 'new' may be a better way to put it.) The real issue is that people just really don't got it. Not, they don't get it. Sure, on an intellectual level they get it. But then haven't got it. Furthermore it never will be 'got' until they die. Sure, it can be 'got' while still living, but who wants to do that?? That takes effort. Effort in looking at the Self, then of course, doing something with it.
Of course this leads me to re-post, yet again, an oldie. Read very carefully please and understand this. Now of course this is in regards to book learning. Yet, it's the same as creating your own line of **** in your head.
"Book learning, like any other sort of second-hand learning, while perfect for things of an academic nature, is far, far less than perfect for things of an experiential nature.
Two down sides of book learning concerning things of an experiential nature are: (1) less than the full experience itself gets into the book and (2) things other than the experience itself become identified as the experience. [Pay attention to this second point. First, from what I see, there's a serious lack of ANY experience, thus the need for making words up.]
The struggle of Carlos Castaneda in this regard can be seen in his reinterpretation of events described in early books when he wrote the later books. An intellectualization of the experience results for the reader. The serious reader who attempts to take it all to heart can become the academic king of the words in the books and still not get the message, for the study of the books relies on linear thought while the subject and message are completely non-linear. Dilucidation is the de-intellectualization of the experience, the process through which the reader can build his or her own bridge to the experience. It, the experience itself, is available. Getting it through the intellectualizations of the writer is the challenge, and Carlos Castaneda is a very intellectual fellow. [....which the reader can build his or her own bridge to the experience.] [This is the same for the assknobs who choose to 'agree' with pure mumbo jumbo, let alone an actual experience.]
Yet "getting it" is only the beginning of the challenge. Getting that you got it is the other half. "Getting it" itself will happen to any reader who gives a few hours to the writings of Carlos Castaneda, briefly, from time to time, when something happens in the reader's life which takes him or her back to the moments of the similar experience which the writer shared. That "getting it" lasts until something happens, although the reader will accumulate a string of such moments over time if the thoughts of the writer stick within his or her awareness. From that string of moments of "getting it" the reader builds confidence that what he or she got is "it". [It's the same with the fairy tale tellers and their followers.]
A reader may even come to believe that they got it. That is a pity. All they have is a structure which supports itself. That self-supporting structure they can carry around and draw from to show themselves and others how everything all fits so well into that intellectual understanding of the non-linear they derived from their reading. They have nothing. The very structure they carry around is the enemy of the purpose(s) which brought about the writings in the first place. Their academic success in the mastery of the finer points of the intellectualizations in the writings, in their mains, makes them immune to the basic tests which don Juan put forth for Carlos Castaneda to face early on, the enemies. Fear makes them hold on to their book learning. Clarity makes their book learning seem adequate. Power results from their mastery of the intellectualizations in the books. Knowledge, to some extent, comes with that package as well. There they are, thinking they are the masters of the teachings, and they are stuck before all the enemies yet once again. What a pity. Dillucidation is their way out. Yet they are terrified of Dillucidation. They would have to turn in their diploma and start all over again, learning to unwalk the rules in order to find the truths beneath them that bind them altogether with a simple picture that holds it all yet has no rules. Only then do they truly get it and get that they got it. Until then their plight is such a great pity".
Now, what have I missed?
A random thought comes to mind. I’m basically a marketer of information. In marketing, we’re taught to provoke people’s emotions, as that’s what they buy with. People buy with emotion and justify it with their logic. Focus on their wants, not their needs.
This is basically what I see here.
You focus on your wants, not what you need. Yet, shouldn’t it be the other way around? Do what you need to do, not what you want to do? Work hard enough on what you need to do then you can do what you want to do? Makes sense to me…
There are two courses of action for you now.
Get pissed off and re-act to this post.
Or…
Get fucking real. Stop lying to yourself and everyone else about your Dreaming abilities or your Zen beliefs or your path of love and light or whatever you’re hung up on. Do something other than give advice. (Shitty advice at that.)
Now, regardless of your option, here’s what you need to do if you’ve made it this far through all this mental masturbation.
First, grab a pencil and a piece of paper. Off the top of your head, write down your exact feelings in regards to this post. All of it. Then, add this to your recapitulation list and figure out what your problems are and resolve them. Yes, these are your issues, not mine. Any ‘speed-bump’ that occurred while reading this in your mind is an issue for you.
Second, re-read this post and take notes on every speculative thought, judgmental attitude, condescending attitude, name calling wanker statements, etc., etc. Can you see any of this in yourself? Add THIS to your recap list and deal with it.
Third, please post your own ***-ups in this thread. What do you have to hide? Who are you hiding it from?
Us, our yourself?
Now, perhaps, we can have a discussion that resides outside mamby-pamby land, ya’ jackwagon!
SHM