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The foreign installation has been the focus of this
discourse. It has been a concept, which took me awhile to catch onto. But now
that J has helped me become aware of it, many related issues are becoming
clear.
In the months following our initial talks, J and I had many conversations.
Characteristic of them all was J’s insistence in constantly making me aware of
the presence of an alien influence imposing itself on every aspect of my life
through controlling my thoughts and emotional reactions.
Further details of our conversations involve personal details, which are a
distraction from the purpose of this paper. To conclude this topic I will
summarize my own understandings gained so far. I am in no way professing any
expertise on the subject. Most of what I do know is based on J’s communications
with me. I take responsibility, however, for offering my own elaborations and
interpretations of his information. I recommend you always check my statements
against your own intuitions. That said, this is a fairly unique peek at a
subject that while it is very ancient knowledge which has been passed along
orally, has only recently surfaced publicly. What has been previously said
about it is sketchy at best. A novice is presenting this, but one who for all
intents and purposes is very much like yourself. I always feel that we learn
best from those who are in the same situation as ourselves. The expert does not
share the familiar vantage point a peer struggling along beside you, with
similar problems in common, can offer.
I started out explaining that I had considered myself a fairly studied,
well-versed occultist (occult not in popularized stereotyped, Gothic horror
sense, but what the definition of the word implies – the study of hidden truths,
especially the causes and relationships of things). I proceeded to describe how
I began to question all I know. Through describing my early encounters with J,
I described how he began to further expose the extent of my own true ignorance.
Now I must confess that most of what I know is terribly flawed, not through any
lack of diligence on my own part, nor of aptitude in the subjects I’ve studied
for many years now. Armed with these understandings about the mind as a foreign
installation, however, I have been lead to profoundly question the integrity of
every field of human knowledge as well as that of all society’s institutions.
It is now apparent that most of what humanity takes for reality is a common
dream reinforced collectively by all its social participants. Since we are all
indoctrinated into this common worldview from an early age through the
influence of our caretakers, at a time when dependence is not an option, we don’t
have much of a fighting chance to choose alternatives. We are stalked when very
young by the predator. It seduces us into depending on it and tricks us into
believing that its mind is our own. Any concerns we may have or suspicions
about its presence that we discuss with our parents are instantly explained
away or ridiculed by them, because they are controlled by their own parasite.
We are therefore socialized into a system that consists almost entirely of
people who depend utterly on a mind, which they believe to be their own, but is
in actuality that of an alien being who uses human beings for food. Therefore,
every aspect of this social system is conditioned around the priorities and
tastes of our true masters. We are further conditioned into mental and
emotional patterns that make us completely vulnerable to brainwashing. Now
further consider that this has been the human condition for thousands of years.
When regarded in total, it cannot escape ones attention that every detail of
human learning and history has been designed and conditioned to produce human
behavior favoring the needs of our predator. This program does not have our
needs and happiness in mind but rather priories like abundance of supply,
quality of taste and our docile cooperation as livestock.
I do have to observe that despite the predators program, life and spiritual
reality cannot be obstructed completely. Truth does find its course. How can it
be any other way? Evolution is a natural force that is in the end,
irresistible. I therefore am also aware that certain spiritual truths studied
have been instrumental in understanding these further revelations. It will,
however, be a long process of sorting things out and questioning everything. My
understanding about the power of the mind has been invaluable. Most modern
occultists know that what we believe in has a powerful influence over every
detail of our daily lives including, our behavior, our bodies and
circumstances. Occultists further understand that the mind even influences
events and circumstances that aren’t even under our direct physical control.
Jung coined the phrase synchronicity to account for this phenomenon. I still do
believe in this powerful magical influence of the mind. But this fact just
makes the predator’s strategy of giving us its own mind so devastatingly
effective. It even implies that through the influence of the mind, the actual
structure of our bodies and subtler vehicles have been reconfigured to imprison
us from our true spiritual potential as free magical beings, and suit us to the
function of being convenient feeding vessels for our parasites.
A number of the participants in the Foreign Installation forum have made
observations that sick, morbid or perverted acts are a product of influence
from one’s parasite. While in most cases this is true, in my estimation, it isn’t
the sole cause of such acts. What’s also implied here is that such acts
generate the kind of energy that the mind parasite prefers and finds most
satisfying. Though this may also be true, one cannot help but notice that such
extreme acts are isolated and not in the realm of average human behavior.
Granted, we all entertain morbid fascinations in one form or another and this
does point out one aspect of our parasite’s predilection. Much subtler,
however, are the full spectrum of tastes and tendencies of the mind tyrant. 99%
of all normal, well-adjusted people, relatively happy with their lives are
nevertheless under constant control of their parasite. If we are to make some
progress in freeing ourselves from this foreign influence and achieving our
full, truly individual potential, we must assume that the most insignificant
details of our daily lives are always under its fierce and ruthless grip.
Stalking oneself, that is, being ever vigilant of thoughts, feelings, emotional
reactions and actions, is the “grist for the mill”, from which insight is
gained and freedom is eventually one.
The mind, or what is believed to be our mind is the real battleground. Contrary
to first impressions, the smarter one is and the more powerful their intellect,
the more vulnerable to enslavement by the parasite. It perverts logic into a weapon
for deception. Its tactic is often to lead an intellectual into a maze of
tantalizing mental exertions. In the process of wasting your time and energy in
compelling, intricate conundrums, it also feeds you the rationalizations that
delicately twist your thinking in a direction of its choosing, so that no
matter what position you started out taking, you end up drawing the conclusions
it would have you make. The parasite has a subtle way of jamming our awareness
and discrimination so that its presence remains off our radar. A warrior’s
task, therefore, is to start to become consciously aware of this foreign
influence and develop discrimination between such and impulses originating from
our true mind. There really is no mystery to technique in such work. One
intends to reveal it and makes careful observations. The difficulties arise
because the parasite is so intent on concealing its presence from us that it
has developed a whole arsenal of maneuvers to distract us from our task. One
common dodge is to cause us to become bored with constant vigilance. We get
attracted to obsessive, exciting, intriguing or entertaining ideas, which end
up consuming all our attention.
Consider also, that all our concepts of reality have been conditioned by our
mind tyrant and reinforced socially by everyone else. So an equally challenging
task is to lose our worldview beginning by questioning the veracity of our
habitual assumptions as they arise in our daily routines. Erasing personal
history is connected with this task. So are the techniques of recapitulation,
not-doings and stopping internal dialogue. It is beyond the scope of this paper
to get into these details. Check out the writings of Theun Mares as well as
Carlos Castaneda for more information.
Equally important is to begin to re-establish a link between our brain and our
own essence. Because the strategy of the predator is to impose itself between
our brains and that essence, this link has become atrophied. I believe this is
what Don Juan was communicating in Active Side of Infinity when he stated
"There is a secret option to the recapitulation. Just like I told you that
there is a secret option to dying, an option that only sorcerers take. In the
case of dying, the secret option is that human beings could retain their life
force and relinquish only their awareness, the product of their lives. In the
case of the recapitulation, the secret option that only sorcerers take is to
choose to enhance their true minds.” I see every reason, however, to pursue
both recapitulation and enhancement of the true mind simultaneously in our bid
for freedom from the influence of our parasite. Don Juan doesn’t elaborate any
further on techniques for doing so. J encouraged me to do certain exercises
that were basically writing assignments in which I asked my essence certain
questions. Contained in the repository of the true mind are the answers to any
problem which might be plaguing one. The first answer that instantaneously
occurs is usually coming from that source. It takes the foreign installation
some time to recover the ball and revise the picture. It’s helpful to quiet the
mind after asking a question and then expect communication from one’s essence.
A final observation is that discipline is key. In Active Side of Infinity, Don
Juan said “The only alternative left for mankind is discipline. Discipline is
the only deterrent. Sorcerers say that discipline makes the glowing coat of
awareness unpalatable to the flyer.” It is, however, a type of mental
discipline, which takes back control from our foreign influence which is
necessary. This combined with the discipline to take action impeccably.
I have become convinced that addressing this issue of the mind as the foreign
installation should be the first priority of every spiritual aspirant. Otherwise
any other effort regarding the many esoteric disciplines one can pursue will
ultimately fail or even worse, serve to strengthen the grip of the mind
parasite. There is much more to the picture, but the bottom line is that
everyone needs to find their own unique strategy for prevailing against this
invisible enemy. Only those who do so with unbending intent have any chance of
succeeding.
- Toltechie
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hi there Toltechie,
In battling the flyer, I used the following tactic, although I do not put it forward as a 'solution' (solution=discipline) still I would like your results on it.
Knowing that the Flyers win by the ultimate strategy: that of giving us their mind (to think with)
our understandable response when encountering it is to 'not' let it overrun our mind and we pull our mind back from it- but what are we afraid of- so Instead I did the opposite- as an experiment
Instead of thinking with the Flyers mind give the Flyer YOUR true mind! having it think with THAT instead LOL.
You may find the results interesting. Id like your feedback on this.
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i dont know exactly what you mean
i suppose with enough awareness and unbending intent one can play many mind games
loluv
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hi there Toltechie,
Hi kwestor.
In battling the flyer, I used the following tactic
Tactics or strategies are, in the most general terms, our only tools to bring to bear in becoming free from our flyers.
although I do not put it forward as a 'solution' (solution=discipline)
Any time we take decisive action we are exercising some form of discipline.
still I would like your results on it.
Thank you for sharing your ideas and offering your proposal. I have indeed given your ideas consideration.
Knowing that the Flyers win by the ultimate strategy: that of giving us their mind (to think with)
Win. Think about your use of terms. Is your flyer coloring your/our situation with finality?
our understandable response when encountering it is to 'not' let it overrun our mind
Along with developing discrimination about when the flyer is doing our thinking for us, I still think this is the place to start.
and we pull our mind back from it
Our mind? If we were really using our own mind, we wouldnt be in this mess in the first place.
- but what are we afraid of-
Good point. Fear is failure.
so Instead I did the opposite- as an experiment
Can you share more with us on exactly what you did and how you accomplished this feat? It would help.
Instead of thinking with the Flyers mind give the Flyer YOUR true mind! having it think with THAT instead LOL.
You may find the results interesting. Id like your feedback on this.
The flyer is intangible to most of us. Could you tell us more about how to give it our true mind?
Im not saying you definitely didnt do what you are describing. After giving what you say much consideration, however, I think it much more likely and in fact very beneficial and educational to us all, to observe how your flyer has revealed a very subtle and divisive strategy. First, it is distracting your attention and actions away from gaining control of your mind and seeking freedom from its influence. Secondly, it is baiting you into considering an ongoing relationship with it. And lastly, it is actually getting your permission to continue enslaving and controlling you by enticing you to condone the possible scenario where you are its master and it is the slave. Granted my analysis is only a humble approximation of the true subtleties and ruthless cunning at work. In general, it realizes that fighting your desire and actions to get rid of it directly is futile. Instead, it tries to twist your efforts in a direction that suites its purposes.
My main point here is to realize that our F.I. has established itself on such intimate terms with us, that it can lead our thinking without us even being aware that it is doing so. Step one remains discriminating its influence upon us and assuming it will try to make us think its ideas as if they are our own.
To Freedom,
Toltechie
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from your considerate reply it is fairly obvious that you are familiar with the subtleties of the FI's modus operandi.good.
you make 3 points:
1)
"First, it is distracting your attention and actions away from gaining control of your mind and seeking freedom from its influence."
this is true of your flyer and every other flyer also so I will not coment on this
3) your third point:
"And lastly, it is actually getting your permission to continue enslaving and controlling you by enticing you to condone the possible scenario where you are its master and it is the slave."
This is not the case in this instance. I can tell you that without a cavil of doubt; I have never nor do I, want to make the flyer, nor any other being, my slave.
furthermore, although plausible such a ploy by a flyer could not work on any person aware of the distinction between the FI and his own mind since to make a slave of anyone in this sense is to invade their mind (to bend their thoughts to do your will) and that is the 'thinking' of a flyer and only an FI (the 5th column) would deliciously accept such an agreement.
It would in effect entail my True mind's being instantly overrun once again by the Flyer and I would not then be aware of the state of mind-freedom which accompanies my free and deliberate choice to do the experiment which I mentioned in my post.
2) more interesting is your second point:
Secondly, it is baiting you into considering an ongoing relationship with it.
This "could" be correct. Let me clarify:
a) it is not baiting me to "begin" a relationship with it, since I already had* that.
b) The experiment was my idea, not the flyers. This I know. perhaps "bargaining" would be a better word than "baiting" (though you could be damn sure it would mercilessly overrun the whole show again the instant it got the slightest chance).
c) The FI is subtle, but it is not invincibly so. If, for example, you were on the point of actually getting rid of your Flyer, you could find yourself thinking: "I have gotten rid of my flyer" and then thinking: ".. but wait, maybe that's just the flyer fooling me into thinking I've gotten rid of it so that I will remain unaware that that it is still there... Oh! that clever clever Flyer" LOL.
obviously there comes a point where you MUST distinguish your true mind from the FI.
a little story:
supposing you were too fat and you needed to stop eating cake. there is a slice of cake in front of you. and suppose your flyer wanted you to eat it.
you say to yourself: " I dont think I'LL have that piece of cake 'cos Im too fat"
the Flyer wouldn't say " go on have the piece of cake. you can have it if you want to"
it will first do the opposite:
it will align with what you want; but it wont say: " you 're right, dont have that piece of cake".
since you already cant distinguish between yourself and it, it will align in the 1st person it will say " I don't want that piece of cake 'cos I'm too fat!! "
then It will say: " I'm not going to have it. no matter How difficult it is "
then: " no matter HOW much I want to "
then: ".. even though I REALLY REALLY want to "
then it will say " jeez! I really really want it"
then: ".. O alright, just one last piece, I'll give it up later" thus gives itself permission LOL
then it moves you hand, grabs the piece of cake, pushes it into your mouth and says "mmm! that was lovely" !
This is how they overcome us: first they align with whatever we think then with what they want us to do. First they run in the same direction that we are running then we find ourselves going along in theirs!- but not if we are energetically awake.
otherwise it doesn't matter which you think, the Flyer plays BOTH opposites of every thought, and unless you are awake, you'll be reeled in by it; if not on the one side then on the opposite; If not on agreement with something then it will "take your side" and disagree with whatever it is that you happen to be disagreeing with at the time.
It doesn't matter to the Flyer; all it cares about is where your yummy awareness is going (i.e. down its throat)....so it might be safer not to 'think' at all LOL.
I make the story about the piece of cake, though, with particular reference to part c) above. For even at the final act of getting rid of the Flyer, it can use your acknowledgement of the fact, (that you had just gotten rid of the Flyer) agree with you, then in order to helpfully make sure it would have you doubt or at least question whether or not you had in fact done it, (because you have to be SURE don't you) and thus begin a frothing bubbling babbling 'self' debate thus walking right back in to its 'former' position using its typical strategy.
You could obviously argue that this very state of affairs would in fact be EVIDENCE that you had NOT gotten rid of the flyer in the first place - the Flyer would revel in such an argument.-
[though this would not necessarily be the case: "return" of Flyer is not the same as the Flyer never having left, even though the end state looks the same i.e. "Flyer present" ]
you could even say that the entire senario was INVENTED by the Flyer for just that purpose (of energy wastage and entanglement)
- or would that be just the Flyer claiming that about the flyer- etc etc and so on ad infinitum.
Why do I go to this length in my reply?
Because accrediting the FI with 'every' thought you have would ensure that you would NEVER escape its clutches and never be able to get rid of it. Obsessive worry about every thought being due to the machinations of the FI is therefore equally dangerous. the FI would absolutely LUXURIATE in such delicious 'worry' thoughts! not to mention the huge amount of mental energy such 'thinking' would expend.
again you might like to consider whether such attribution were not made BY the FI itself for just that purpose.
- W H E W ! -
now on to the other issues:
"The flyer is intangible to most of us. Could you tell us more about how to give it our true mind?"
The Flyer is about as intangible as your mind; neither more nor less. we can only speak 'metaphorically' when we talk of such things because we must borrow from the language of sensory perception, which deals mainly with 'objects' in space and time.
The Important thing about the Flyers, as far as we are concerned, is that they feed on us.i.e. they are PREDATORS and we are PREY. There is NO PLACATING them. Their Intent is to reduce your awareness to nothing. whether they eat it or just play with it is about as relevant to us as whether one is killed by enemy fire or killed by 'friendly' fire.
The important thing is the direction OF THE INTENT.
Their INTENT is to reduce your awareness to nothing (if they actually managed the last bit you'd die) that is the salient point, because the intent of your true mind is just the opposite: ie to not be reduced by any amount whatsoever!
naturally you dont want your mind being overrun by an alien intelligence; the very thought is repugnant to us. If you could see the approach of a flyer and were to 'pull your mind in', so to speak, like a tortoise into its shell, so as to not present an opportunity for it to 'invade' or enter your mind ..you would in fact be making a mistake because for all that has been said about the subtleties of the flyer's intelligence, it is STILL the case that your true mind belongs to YOU and nobody and nothing else. Your command IS the eagle's command and always has been. and the flyer can do nothing with your mind unless you are sloppy and not energetically awake.
the flyer is a bogey, and to retreat from it is to allow it to encroach on what was once your territory. as far as the experiment which I mentioned to you is concerned, the ONLY thing of importance is that amount of your terrain that has been overrun, how much of your terrain your true mind still holds or occupies and particularly the boundary between the two.
My point is sort of like this: for as long as you continue to retreat, by that very act you lose ground that was once yours. It WANTS to have you think in these terms consistent with what is, (from its point of view) 'advance', because for as long as you retreat it gets to 'advance'; it CANNOT advance on it's own; it requires an agreement from you; it requires that you 'invite' it in by your retreat!
and the more you 'close' your mind against it, paradoxically, the more powerful you believe it to be, and the more its power (which is actually NIL) over you becomes!
The ONLY important thing about the fliers is not that they are alien beings or where they came from, (who cares?) the only important thing about them is that their intent is the exact opposite of ourS (namely we want to live, freedom, energy)
nOW if you intend that the battle-line move the other way, so that you can reclaim the territory that is rightfully yours - that is rightfully YOU - you move towardss freedom.
you cannot force it to think with your mind ( no more than it ever forced you to think according to its predillection in the direction of ITs intent), for the act of forceing sets up the intent of opposition, but you can ALLOW it to think with your mind, convert it into more of you, allow it to see and feel the benefits of being 'human', as an act of total generosity to it.
-to convert IT into more of you, to have you inside IT, to fill it with you; to have no part of it that is not filled with you (your essence?).. to have in essence - no flyer
[ This is possible because the "substance" (again we have to borrow language from everyday use) of "mind" and the "substance" out of which the Flyers are made, is the same "substance". awareness that also has/is energy]
however If you act with less than complete generosity to it, then once again it exists, opposing your true intent with its intent; its intent that you cease to exist against your true intent for total freedom.
although in metaphor, this is as best as I can explain it. You might have a better chance of making sense of it if you try to understand it with your awareness instead of with your thoughts.
according to Don Juan, the flyers have no understanding of Discipline - they can't merge with that. and Discipline is still the way I'd recommend to get rid of them -even were it to take a life time.
They have no understanding of true kindness either- they cannot co-exist with it because their intent cannot co-exist with it.
( Ive used a fair bit of energy in this reply to you, I hope you get some good out of it. this is my gift to you )
Let me know if it makes sense to you. ...or maybe it just sounds nuts! LOL
w
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(taking a relaxing pause on its journey to heroxtlan, floating lazily belly-up on the clear, tranquil waters of a wonderful recess of the river)
Nhaic. Kwestor, croco here is a bit confused perhaps you could help croco here to sort out its confusion (dont worry, croco wont bite you, nhac, nhac, nhac)
You said:
> -to convert IT into more of you, to have you inside IT, to fill it with you; to have no part of it that is not filled with you (your essence?).. to have in essence - no flyer
Er how do you propose to get yourself into it, to fill it with you, to have no part of it that is not filled with you, when you also said that it has no substance and that we can only speak of it metaphorically?
But assuming that we could do what you are saying what you are actually proposing, is to literally exterminate the predator. For if you fill it up totally with you to the point where there is no more predator, the predator ceased to exist as the individuality it was. It doesnt matter that it has changed, merged with you or whatever. The end result is that it will cease to be what it is. And it would have been you, whom would have brought about such ceasing of being. Therefore, the obvious question has to be asked: what different would you then be from the predator? You wouldnt be any better than it. For you would have done to it what you fear it to do to you, that is, to make you cease to be the individuality that you are, to kill you.
Is this your proposition for the challenges that Life lovingly throws into your path? To kill the opponent? To kill or be killed? The age old religious brain washing dementia of an eye for an eye? Havent you progressed, evolved any bit over that barbaric stage? Is that how much you value Life? How much you respect Life? Is that how far your present intellectual development and prowess allow you to go in tackling such a mighty challenge, as is the dealing with a predator? To fight it? To kill it? To exterminate it?
Havent you learn yet that Life never creates anything purposelessly, or uselessly and therefore if it created an entity such as the predator, a higher function and purpose that predator might have in the vast scheme of things? Or are your sights so short and clouded that your intellect isnt capable of distinguishing an elephant from an ant if it stands farther than two inches away from your eyes?
How can you talk and preach peace and freedom, when you are openly and irresponsibly suggesting and advocating such an abhorrent proposition of fight, war, death and extermination, huh?
Ah, my dear lad, how very little you understand of Life and of. Yourself and what you are. How very little indeed
Croco is indeed confused lets see you further said that:
> They have no understanding of true kindness either- they cannot co-exist with it because their intent cannot co-exist with it
So what are you actually saying here, huh? Croco always gets confused with ambiguities, so has to squeeze them until they give off all they have to give off. Lets see
By being kind to it, it will - again - cease to exist (since you say that it can not co-exist with kindness and since you said that we cannot talk about it other than metaphorically). No good solution to croco. If it exists, a reason must be for its existence and croco here for one, has no business playing God or whatever alike, determining what shall and what shall not continue to exist.
But it might be that you are hinting at a strategy to achive the feat of turning it into more of you, by filling it more and more with you until it is completely filled with you and hence it is no longer predator anymore. End result still the same, its extermination. Nope, no good to croco either. Croco here values and loves Life and ALL its manifestations in all its infinitely varied forms, shapes and flavors without exception, above anything else.
It might yet be that you are suggesting that by being kind to it, it will simply stir away from you, due to not being able to co-exist with kindness, in which case you are simply pushing it away from you and not harming it or intending to harm it in any way or manner. OK, if this is the case, croco can go along with it without any troubles at all. Good.
But it might yet be something else cant it, kwestor?
It might be that you are actually not considering the predator at all on this instance, but considering simply and strictly yourself. Reaching out shyly through the disguised cape of this sentence, to ask for kindness towards yourself kindness of being given what you feel you need the most clarification. And thats OK, you know we all need clarifications but honesty is always the best road and if you feel like needing clarification, all you have to do is to ask, you know
What? You fear the ridicule and the mockery that might be thrown at you, such a knowledgeable lad, for asking for clarification in a department where you pose yourself as being quite deeply experienced? Then, with all due respect, croco must tell you that you dont understand the first thing about the very subject you talk about so much: learning.
For only the imbeciles, the cretins and the highly ignorant indeed, ever mock and ridicule an individual who openly asks for clarification. For only an imbecile, a cretin and a downright ignorant individual fails to understand that the only real difference between any two individuals, is not their degree of knowledge or understanding about anything, but simply their degree of ignorance. For in Infinity, there is an infinite amount of knowledge to be grasped and therefore theres never the possibility of any individual ever coming to know or understand all that there is to be known or understood. Therefore, all individuals are always in a perennial state of ignorance in relation to whats still ahead of them to be known and understood. Only the degree of such ignorance varies between them, nothing else.
Theres no shame in asking for clarification. There is shame only when one feels the need of being clarified and doesnt have the courage to ask for the clarification. For that lack of courage is a blatant statement of the individuals fear and of the dimension of that individuals pride.
There might have been something else, though, that led you to make that statement about kindness, which you probably didnt consider. It might have not come from you at all. It might very well have come from something which loves you more than what you care to believe it possible, which understands better than yourself what is it that you might need - rather than want - at this very moment and therefore lovingly handled you into saying it, for it did know and understood that some fool out there might very well catch the appeal and accept to stretch out a helping hand. Not saying this was the case, huh just saying that the possibility exists for it to might have happened and therefore it would be unwise not to consider it
But then again, croco here is just a croco nhac, nhac
Anyway. As you can see, croco got indeed quite confused with this post of yours. Care to clarify croco? Thanks upfront, whatever your decision might be.
(rolling over itself lazily, enjoying the warm waters and the sunshine)
Croco
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Thank you kwestor, w, etc. You have indeed presented us with material we can learn from.
this is true of your flyer and every other flyer also so I will not coment on this
And of yours too? Youve made comment enough in acknowledging my first point.
This is not the case in this instance. I can tell you that without a cavil of doubt; I have never nor do I, want to make the flyer, nor any other being, my slave.
Not even one little cavil? Im very relieved to hear that. So in foisting your true mind on your F.I., or in completely consuming it with your own essence, youre satisfied just to be itsummaster?
furthermore, although plausible such a ploy by a flyer could not work on any person aware of the distinction between the FI and his own mind
How do you propose to be aware of the distinction between the FI and your own mind, if the mind that you believe to be yours is actually the FI's mind in the first place? You may never have been, for as long as you can recall, using, or thinking with and through your own true mind.
since to make a slave of anyone in this sense is to invade their mind (to bend their thoughts to do your will)
My humble opinion is that ones mind isnt something that can be invaded much less can it be converted into the mind of another entity. Manipulated, yes. The thoughts can indeed be lead as you have well illustrated in your cake story.
and that is the 'thinking' of a flyer and only an FI (the 5th column) would deliciously accept such an agreement.
Ok, the flyer originates such thinking. However, constantly being induced to think our FIs thoughts, we so often entertain such as if they are our own predilections. Your predator is performing an interesting maneuver. By playing the part of the one who would deliciously accept such an agreement, it is baiting you and us to form an agreement with it.
It would in effect entail my True mind's being instantly overrun once again by the Flyer
Study this last phrase carefully. It is a good example of the FIs skillful use of words to create powerful subliminal suggestions. NLP most expertly applied!
and I would not then be aware of the state of mind-freedom which accompanies my free and deliberate choice to do the experiment which I mentioned in my post.
Oryour flyer is so completely in control of you that it has you totally convinced that you are acting out of free and deliberate choice to do exactly what it wants you to do in performing your experiment and getting even cozier with it as I proposed originally.
This "could" be correct.
*Is* correct as far as I can tell.
Let me clarify:
From all of what Ive read in this post of yours, kwestor may I humbly suggest that you would really benefit from working on your *clairity*. This is where your FI really messes with you.
a) it is not baiting me to "begin" a relationship with it, since I already had* that.
I rest my case. I said it is baiting you into *considering an ongoing* relationship with it, not as you say begin one. So your argument shows how your predator is able to blur your clarifications to be meaningless. Friend, there is a high probability that you still *have* an ongoing relationship with yours.
b) The experiment was my idea, not the flyers. This I know.
Please *do* tell us more about what makes you so sure of this.
perhaps "bargaining" would be a better word than "baiting"
Soyou bought the bargain instead of taking the bait? Well, thats completely different
(though you could be damn sure it would mercilessly overrun the whole show again the instant it got the slightest chance).
Youve just made a noteworthy point. Those who are rid of their predator are never immune from being stalked by it.
c) The FI is subtle, but it is not invincibly so.
True.
If, for example, you were on the point of actually getting rid of your Flyer, you could find yourself thinking: "I have gotten rid of my flyer" and then thinking: ".. but wait, maybe that's just the flyer fooling me into thinking I've gotten rid of it so that I will remain unaware that that it is still there... Oh! that clever clever Flyer" LOL.
If your mind is revolving in such unsure circles, its a clear indication that you havent gotten rid of your flyer.
obviously there comes a point where you MUST distinguish your true mind from the FI.
That is indeed a very necessary step, but achieving such does not mean you have rid yourself of your FI.
a little story:
Your cake story is indeed an excellent example worthy our study of how the FI maneuvers. In NLP, this technique is called pacing and leading.
so it might be safer not to 'think' at all
Here is another technique for dealing with the predator. Stopping the internal dialogue.
frothing bubbling babbling 'self' debate
Why dont you reread that whole section you wrote and ask yourself who is talking?
Because accrediting the FI with 'every' thought you have would ensure that you would NEVER escape its clutches and never be able to get rid of it. Obsessive worry about every thought being due to the machinations of the FI is therefore equally dangerous. the FI would absolutely LUXURIATE in such delicious 'worry' thoughts! not to mention the huge amount of mental energy such 'thinking' would expend.
Gathering ones awareness, being vigilant and stalking ones predator is very different from worry thoughts. But you make some good points about not being obsessed with the FI and giving it all your power. We are indeed caught in a difficult struggle. If one is to prevail, one must be armed with unbending intent to be free, coupled with patience and perseverance.
- W H E W !
You said it, kwestor! Much more to comment on and out of time tonight. Ill tackle the rest soon enough.
Peace,
- Toltechie
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Kwestor wrote:
"The Flyer is about as intangible as your mind; neither more nor less."
So the flyer is exactly as intangible to you as your mind? Seers perceive it energetically as an entity as real and distinct as you and me.
"we can only speak 'metaphorically' when we talk of such things because we must borrow from the language of sensory perception, which deals mainly with 'objects' in space and time."
What do you mean by such things? Its one matter to clarify the nature of energetic realities through the use of metaphor. Its entirely different to use it to pile up more ambiguities.
The Important thing about the Flyers, as far as we are concerned, is that they feed on us.i.e. they are PREDATORS and we are PREY. There is NO PLACATING them. Their Intent is to reduce your awareness to nothing. whether they eat it or just play with it is about as relevant to us as whether one is killed by enemy fire or killed by 'friendly' fire.
The important thing is the direction OF THE INTENT.
When one carefully stalks the predator, one discovers many things about their nature as well as their modus operandi. I for one would like to know exactly where the bullets are flying from and the precise intent behind such. Understanding details about our predator is highly relevant. I'm sure that they are not just some mental antithesis of our own intent to be aware, alive and free. They are beings with a will to survive and a whole compliment of tastes and tendencies, which one can deduce. They are for instance, formidable stalkers and experts at manipulating and controlling the mind.
Their INTENT is to reduce your awareness to nothing (if they actually managed the last bit you'd die)
Does a farmer intend to starve his/her milking cows until they are all dead? Neither does the predator intend to reduce our awareness to nothing until we are dead.
that is the salient point, because the intent of your true mind is just the opposite: ie to not be reduced by any amount whatsoever!
Our true mind gets obscured and consigned to lethargy through lack of use by our predator. Perhaps you might want to get your own out of mothballs before your start imagining what its intent is?
If you could see the approach of a flyer
How likely is that if your flyer is as intangible as your mind?
and were to 'pull your mind in', so to speak, like a tortoise into its shell,
The mind which you think is yours? And where/what is this tortoise shell to pull it into?
so as to not present an opportunity for it to 'invade' or enter your mind
We do not get our mind entered or invaded, physically or even metaphorically. And we already endure an alien presence, which performed the stupendous maneuver of tricking us into using its mind as our own.
the flyer can do nothing with your mind unless you are sloppy and not energetically awake over you becomes!
Speaking of sloppy and not energetically awake, it is my humble opinion that your whole imaginative scenario here is so much mental gymnastics that your predator is pacing you through, and has no real, energetic basis at all.
The ONLY important thing about the fliers is not that they are alien beings or where they came from, (who cares?)
I care! You should too if really want to get free from your predator.
the only important thing about them is that their intent is the exact opposite of ourS (namely we want to live, freedom, energy)
This simplistic notion of antithesis has already been commented on.
nOW if you intend that the battle-line move the other way, so that you can reclaim the territory that is rightfully yours - that is rightfully YOU - you move towardss freedom.
More mental gymnastics.
you cannot force it to think with your mind
No you cant, and Im inclined to conclude that you cant give it your true mind, as you originally proposed, either.
( no more than it ever forced you to think according to its predillection in the direction of ITs intent), for the act of forceing sets up the intent of opposition, but you can ALLOW it to think with your mind,
Examine this carefully. The whole surface argument going on here and elsewhere seems to be: fearing or being negatively obsessed by the predator is a mistake, which acts to empower it. While we start to run along with this basically valid premise, and try to somehow pursue its opposite, we are now being coaxed into accepting a more insidious notion: resistance is futile. And we are further being lead to the suggestion: you can ALLOW it to think with your mind. This is masterful NLP wording. Your predator is now giving us all a subliminal command to keep allowing it to think for us with the mind, which is our Foreign Installation!
convert it into more of you, allow it to see and feel the benefits of being 'human', as an act of total generosity to it.
Through controlling us for millennia, the predator has been allowed to color our perception of what it means to be human. The predator is therefore constantly being fulfilled through human behavior already by its own design of our social conditioning.
-to convert IT into more of you, to have you inside IT, to fill it with you; to have no part of it that is not filled with you (your essence?).. to have in essence - no flyer
I look forward to your response to Crocossaurios perceptive questions regarding this statement of yours.
[ This is possible because the "substance" (again we have to borrow language from everyday use) of "mind" and the "substance" out of which the Flyers are made, is the same "substance". awareness that also has/is energy]
We do indeed all share the same basic cosmic substance, but we are still distinct entities with our own individual essences. I suggest, therefore that what you propose is quite impossible to accomplish. You are treating the flyer as if it is some alienated complex of your psyche which you can just reclaim as yourself.
however If you act with less than complete generosity to it, then once again it exists, opposing your true intent with its intent; its intent that you cease to exist against your true intent for total freedom.
The message from the predator is: dont fight it or even think about it, be nice to it and even get cozy with itto the point where we cant distinguish between it and ourselves.
although in metaphor, this is as best as I can explain it. You might have a better chance of making sense of it if you try to understand it with your awareness instead of with your thoughts.
Wakeup kwestor. I sincerely hope you can move beyond mere thinking and focus your own awareness and intent on gaining a deeper understanding of yourself and your predator.
according to Don Juan, the flyers have no understanding of Discipline - they can't merge with that.
The predator is highly disciplined in its own way, and a very patient and inventive stalker. Don Juan was referring to discipline of ones thoughts and emotions to defeat the fulcrum of control the predator exploits in us. Discipline further build awareness and personal power, two important allies to aid in ones bid for freedom from predatorial influence a much different scenario than retreating from it.
and Discipline is still the way I'd recommend to get rid of them -even were it to take a life time.
This is another suggestion by the FI that we take a whole lifetime to get rid of it.
( Ive used a fair bit of energy in this reply to you, I hope you get some good out of it. this is my gift to you )
This is the first post where someone reminds me of how much theyve put into it and that it is generously given. Do you leave the price tags on presents too? I certainly hope you didnt overtax yourself beyond your capacities. A warrior should act out of impeccability and not be concerned about results. I am however moved to gratitude for not only your efforts, but everyone else who has contributed to this forum on behalf of all those who may benefit from the accumulated information. And indeed we have received a wealth of material to study and learn from out of your generous offering. I cant help speculating, however, that what is in parentheses is in reality a special message form your predator to mine
All the best,
- Toltechie
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"frothing bubbling babbling 'self' debate"
"Why dont you reread that whole section you wrote and ask yourself who is talking?"
why dont YOU ? then you might notice that I wrote all that as a scenario of what "COULD" happen "IF" one had a flyer. as-a-hypothetical-case. not as a statement of what is actually happening or has happened in either you or me. "IF" that "babbling" were taking place then it would be the flyer.
OR are you trying to suggest that only a FI would give a hypothetical example of how things might be if one was under the influence of a FI? that would mean we could not talk about this topic at all. That would be just Dumb!
--------------------------------
"Not even one little cavil? Im very relieved to hear that. So in foisting your true mind on your F.I., or in completely consuming it with your own essence, youre satisfied just to be itsummaster?"
No! not even a teensy-weensy cavil LOL. .: when you do it the FI ceases to EXIST! (in you) - and that is not a master-slave relationship..... although when you stop, it returns. that's why I said I did not put it forward as a solution.
*************
by analogy: ( for crocco too )
if you blow up a balloon and regard all the region of space inside the balloon as "Balloon" and press your finger into the side of it, then your finger now occupies some space, of what was formerly, "Balloon". your finger is a "Foreign Installation" to the balloon.
(though your finger is not foreign to itself)
If the balloon now expands again, "converting" the region of what was formerly "Foreign"(finger) into more "Balloon", it regains its proper shape and in no way can the balloon be construed as wanting or having a master-slave relationship with your finger! - yet "Balloonness" has been "given" to that "region" of space that was all "Finger"- there is no part of that region that is now not "Balloon"
your finger will, however, continue to exist, and can poke into the balloon again as soon as the pressure inside the balloon drops a bit again (or the finger can push a little harder- which, producing a similar visual effect, could easily be misconstrued as being the same thing, to the casual observer)
all until the balloon gets a hard outer coat that's just no fun to poke anymore.!
no "master-slave thing " it just wants to be a happy little balloon being the proper shape it was meant to be.
*************
you could argue that it is precisely the return of the flyer that "causes" me to stop (the experiment). That would imply that the flyer was in fact "stronger" than my experimental action, which would FURTHER imply therefore that it WILLINGLY retreated in the face of it in the first place SO AS TO CREATE THE ILLUSION that it was my action that "made" it (the FI) (temporarily) dissappear.
I could not know whether or not that was the case unless I knew the difference between my mind and the FI. And I do know this difference
perhaps it is because you don't know your own mind (because your FI has you so hopelessly caught) that you find it difficult to accept that anyone else can know THEIR own mind.
When you get rid of YOUR FI, Toltechie, you'll just KNOW the difference!
HOW do I know when it's my true mind?
well , you know when you're dreaming ( the ordinary kind, not the lucid or sorcery kind ) and you don't know you're dreaming, but when you wake up in the morning you DO KNOW that you're awake and that it WAS a dream?
well its THAT KIND OF DIFFERENCE IN AWARENESS that lets you know when you're NOT under the influence of the FI.
and when you ARE under its influence, you too Toltechie are just as f*&ked as the rest of us!
and NO the FI's influence is NOT continuous.
--------------------
"My humble opinion is that ones mind isnt something that can be invaded much less can it be converted into the mind of another entity. Manipulated, yes. The thoughts can indeed be lead as you have well illustrated in your cake story."
when one has been "Manipulated" into thinking 'foreign' thoughts by a 'Foreign Installation'
I described that as "invaded" (just different terminology - one's "mind" isn't a "spatial" "object" occupying "volume" so neither can it be "Manipulated" like a physical object, so in my "humble" opinion one's mind cannot be "manipulated" either)
and people have been known to have been "converted", say, into "muslims" or "christians" and other arbitrary "isms".
-----------------------
my argument doesn't show "how my predator is able to blur my clarifications to be meaningless."
re: [it *could* be the case]
(that ".. it is baiting [me] into considering an ongoing relationship with it.")
it COULD be" in the sense that
(1) " it COULD be.. IF I had a flyer"
NOT
"it COULD be " in the sense that
(2) "it could be ... but-i-dont-know-whether-it-is-or-is-not-the-case-(that it might be the FI's subtle doings)"
sense (1) does not logically necessarily imply that a FI is present
whereas
sense (2) does! because if FI were absent I would just KNOW it! And (2) could not logically be true.(*see above)
I meant (1) , in the sense that "for all you know " it "could" be the case. However I KNOW that it isnt.
further..
"baiting someone into considering an ongoing relationship" is ambiguous:
it could mean;
(3) baiting someone into considering "entering into an" ongoing relationship
OR
(4) baiting someone into considering "maintaining an" ongoing relationship that is already in place
I was merely pointing out, by my use of "..I already had* that..." [in a) of my last post] that the FI would not be doing (3).
and that "..already had*.." implies that IF EITHER (3) or (4) were correct, the usage of the word "could" could only be refering to a (4)-type structure. which precision cannot be applied until the ambiguity in your statement is made explicit so as to render (3) and (4) in the first place.
my argument doesn't show how my predator is able to blur my clarifications to be meaningless;
on the contrary
it shows how YOUR preditor is able to blur your meaning [(3)or(4)?] to be subtlely ambiguous and
prevent you from noticing your sentence's semantic ambiguity by deletion.
And furthermore, once you DO notice it, Your FI will, if you let it, trivialize this "unimportant" difference in meaning, it is "hair-splitting", "profitless", "not-worth-paying-attention-to".
But it is precisely in these types of fine differences , these "hairline cracks" that the FI uses to leverage us.
"from small acorns, giant oak trees grow" and "a small leak can sink a battleship" etc.
If you want to know WHY the FI is SO much more proficient than us (initially) at this battle, its because we tend to couch our thoughts in words whereas the FI is not thusly hampered: it knows and works with meaning directly. Meanings which we couch in our own native languages: French, Greman, etc.
We have language barriers, the flyers do not.
But we can do this too.
its the difference between moving the assemblage point with Ritual and incantation and moving it directly by wordless INTENT.
The fact that you yourself did not notice this ambiguity in your reply was probably due to YOUR FI deliberately blurring your thinking to convince you that my statements are all due to a FI, thereby making it less likely that you will consider them from any point of view other than
"your own " (which is really your FI's point of view- which you are defending vigourously - remember your FI is very subtle)
-------------------------------------------------------
I suggested the term "bargaining" as a better alternative to "baiting", because it better represents the hypothetical situation under discussion.
"baiting" is something you do to lure something INTO a trap
"bargaining" is more like what you do when you're ALREADY IN a trap and the trapper comes along.
and with regard to the FI:
"baiting" is something it might do TO GAIN a hold over us.
"bargaining" is something it might do to get us to allow it TO STAY.
"Soyou bought the bargain instead of taking the bait? Well, thats completely different"
I did neither:
Your post:
" I think it much more likely and in fact very beneficial and educational to us all, to observe how your flyer has revealed a very subtle and divisive strategy."
you seem to be clinging to the assumption (as true) that it is my FI that speaks, and doing all your interpreting so as to conform to that assumption. Obviously you may do so if you wish, but even you must concede, that my ability to sense my own mind outranks your ability to claim that it is not my true mind that speaks. Though you may not want to admit that since it would mean that it is quite possible that you are, quite simply, wrong!
your use of the term "observe how... " linguistically presupposes everything that follows it, in particular that it "is" "my flyer" that is using this "strategy"
I think we could all learn from your FI's subtle use of NLP techniques to presuppose whatever it is that it doesn't want questioned.
but it IS so WONDEFULLY "beneficial and educational" to "observe how" your flyer has skillfully used language and twisted it to make it seem that what I originally proposed was in fact the machinations of a flyer, of which I am a hapless victim, and not in fact the free choice of a free being.
also notice how your Flyer continues to side with you (same old strategy) by holding up "Freedom" as a worthy goal and yet sabotaging all your attempts in that direction by labelling all freedom as illusory.[while swearing blindly that "we must be dedicated and have unbending intent toward freedom"]
and by passing on such "self-sabotaging" thought patterns would also have everyone else enclose themselves in a prison of their own making! get lost!
i.e. when you finally get free of your flyer, how will you know that its not just your FI making you falsely think that you're free so as to have you even more cosily enslaved?
----------------------------------------
here's a question:
after you have set up dreaming ( or indeed while you are lucid dreaming) where is the FI's influence then huh? huh? where?
----------------------------------------------------------
"By playing the part of the one who would deliciously accept such an agreement, it is baiting you and us to form an agreement with it."
S1:="It would in effect entail my True mind's being instantly overrun once again by the Flyer"
"Study this last phrase carefully. It is a good example of the FIs skillful use of words to create powerful subliminal suggestions. NLP most expertly applied!"
2 questions:
A) what "agreement" do you think MY flyer (presupposition) is trying to get YOU (Toltechie) to form with it? precisely?
B) could you parse, deconstruct and analyse sentence S1 for me. I don't see any "powerful subliminal suggestions" therein. Take S1 apart with a fine comb and explain its expert use of NLP
*** That would be REALLY helpful to all of us. ***
-------------------------------------------------------
Do you really think that a FI could not tell you the EXACT opposite of what it IN FACT wanted you to agree TO?
And would "disagreeing" with the FI therefore be a path to freedom? (I dont think so)
there are two usages of the word "agreement" here:
one is A1:
"agreement" as to the truth or falsity of various statements (which may or may not be the FI's )
and the other is A2:
the "agreement" to let the FI IN in the first place! it is this latter type which we must undo and unconditionally disagree with. (different type from A1)
however, if you unconditionally and unthinkingly disagree with all A1 (on the grounds, for example, that it as a FI which utters them), the FI can just play polarities (better than you?) and "reversedly" walk you right back into A2.
---------------------------------
"You are treating the flyer as if it is some alienated complex of your psyche which you can just reclaim as yourself."
And you are treating it as if it isnt!; - every thought that you have, every feeling that you feel is an event or process within your own psyche.- regardless of its "origin".
"I cant help speculating, however, that what is in parentheses is in reality a special message form your predator to mine"
You speculate this crazy type of "special communication" because it is in conformity with your assumption that I am ruled by my preditor and that therefore everything I say to you is in fact coming from my preditor and must be "dissagreed" with because "agreements" with the preditor are dangerous.
maybe you'll be wearing the tinfoil helmet next to prevent my preditor from sending mind-control rays into your head !
I would say "listen to what your preditor is telling you" but you'd probably say that that was a command from my preditor for you to acquiess to yours.
so I could say: "don't listen to your preditor" but you'd probably say that that was a hypnotic command given in the negative for the same purpose .
I could frame it "positively" and say: " listen to me" but you'd say that it was only my predator talking.
you, in complete unwitting obedience to your predator, are interpreting everything I say to conform to what you already have accepted from your predator.
Your predator has tricked you into thinking that you are battling to get rid of your predator. Whereas "your" actions against it are really its actions, and they have no more chance of getting rid of your preditor that howling at the moon!
In response to this your predator will make you think that THAT was just my predator, so as to reinforce your belief that the actions you take are yours and that your predator is not directing either your acts or your interpretations.
a warrior takes responsibility for himself. "nobody is doing anything to anyone"- Don Juan.
take full responsibility for your own mind Toltechie.
To Freedom!
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(lazily stretching its scaled carcass, enjoying the warmth of the waters)
(nhuckling - that's croc's chuckling)
So very predictable, kwestor, sigh...
You know kwestor... it never ceases to amaze croco here, the fact that some lads are blind enough to start chats for which they do not have baggage to carry on in mature ways... forget the fact that you failed to answer my questions, whilst yet arrogantly blasting a few more questions of your own... in a blatant demonstration that neither do you have understnding enough with and through which to supply such answers, nor do you have any understanding of what the concept of respect is.
Where you indeed stepped over the line, was in your reply to Toltechie, namely (quoting you)
kwestor > and by passing on such "self-sabotaging" thought patterns would also have everyone else enclose themselves in a prison of their own making! get lost!
Get lost? Are you aware of how immature one has to be in order to reach for such expression, when the prowess of intellect fails in allowing one to maturely reply another one? Well, whatever... it would obviously be a waste of energies attempting to clarify you here... after all, every piece of fruit needs its moments to mature from a green state into a ripe one...
You also said in that reply to Toltechie, that (quoting you again)
Kwestor > here's a question:
nhac, nhac, nhac... you're a full plate, lad... you put up the show you do, pretending to be oh so very expert in these matters, with all the rubbish talk you dump (oh, yes, for all you have done so far, was to babble inanities which are not aproduct of your own understanding, but merely the product of your parroting of other people's understandings), so as to show off how much you know and understand and how much right you are and yet... instead of sanctioning your arguments when you are given the opportunity to do so, by replying the questions you are asked (and which you simply can't answer), you clumsily try to divert attentions for the fact you're not answering (with a mountain of innanities) and you go on asking more questions.
hah! what a plate... mighty kwestor, whom is too superior to provide the inferior ones with answers and stands in so high a pedestal that everybody MUST answer your questions regardless, huh... wha a plate...
But here's something for you (quoting you yet again)
Kwestor > after you have set up dreaming ( or indeed while you are lucid dreaming) where is the FI's influence then huh? huh? where?
Ah, my lad, how very lttle do you understand about Life, about yourself, what you yourself are and... and about virtually everything else, if you ask croco here. In truth croco must tell you, that as far as croco's understanding goes, you are as aware of yourself and of all the matters about which you talk here, as an onion or a carrot are. You are going through Life as an ambulatory vegetable, kwestor. Which is fine, since it is your business and your business alone... Where it stops being fine, is when you start offending folks, as soon as intelligence starts to falter you...
Not good, huh, lad... not thatyou should give a fig about what anbody might think of you, oh, no, no.... Simply because it REVEALS the true dimension and extent of your personal ignorance. Which is exactly what you have struggled for so long to hidde from everybody... sigh... let it be as you wish, though... your path, your concern...
Thank you for the bit of your reply to Toltechie, which you addressed to croco here, but croco will decline to reply to you that one, for one reason and one reason alone... contrary to what collective belief dictates, croco here is all but a heartless bugger... and therefore croco will spare you the ominous embarassment that would befall upon you, were croco here to reply you back that one.
To placate your curiosity a tiny bit, though, allow me to tell you that the influence of the FI upon you (or anybody else, for that matter) while one is dreaming (lucidly or otherwise, although in the case of the lucid condition, matters get even worst for the dreamer and far simpler for the predator) is far more intense and far easier for the **** (the predator) to accomplish and to handle, than when one is in the so called "awake state".
Since you are so knowledgeable, certain and secure of your knowledge on these matters, though, croco here shall respect your convictions and leave you alone for you to live your lfe through them, as you see fit. A friendly suggestion, nevertheless, tough: review your convictions. Specially when it comes to mind influencing. Your baloon example is inadequate and even a physically blind individual to whom croco read your example, couldn't help but to laugh at your inability to understand how inadequate and "why" that example is. But... croco is croco and the other chap is physically blind, so.... all the best to you kwestor. Be happy. if you can (smile)
CROCOSSAURIO (see? your mightyness doesn't intimidate croco.... why do you insist in feeding it and sustaining it, only you can help yourself understand, but.... the odds of such happening are incredibly huge for croco to believe you could succeed... sigh...)
(lazily splashing water all over)
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Kwestor,
Thanks for your efforts in your latest reply. I chose to delay my reply back to be polite and allow you some space to respond to the latest posts to you from Crocossaurio.
Ill be brief, since I wish to end our further discussions for obvious reasons regarding the tone and direction that you have chosen. Most importantly, I refuse to cooperate with a cabal between our respective flyers (yes, they are all in communication with each other) to degenerate and twist the conversation in an attempt to obscure certain revelations, which have been made. Secondly, I simply do not owe someone the courtesy of answering new questions and issues they pose after refusing to adequately address those of mine asked previously. Also, I will not further indulge your emotional need to be treated as a superior. Lastly, it was never my intention to win a petty debate contest with you. It is out of a sense of compassion that I save you further embarrassment by refraining from analyzing your latest post point by point. Ill leave other readers to test their own awareness in evaluating such. My only aim has been and continues to be sorting out truth from fiction. I have endeavored to cultivate honesty with myself and others as to where exactly Im at in my process of discovery. I freely admit being a relative newcomer to the subject of the Foreign Installation. Through self-honesty, discipline, vigilance and persistence, Ive gained certain hard won understandings that no one can talk me out of. Despite your rationalizations, you cannot obscure the fact that I fully recognize in certain individuals, who I have the good fortune of knowing, the progress they have made in their bid to be free from the predator. Those individuals display distinct behavior, which cannot be faked nor mimicked. It a sad fact that despite your protests, your behavior blatantly follows the patterns of one who is wrapped around their predators little finger. The troublesome question you must ask yourself is this: If a beginner like myself can see through your false claims and empty sophisms, how many others will draw the same conclusions after reading your posts?
Peace,
- Toltechie
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Wolf - I've just edited this last part of my paper because I noticed that you or your board software has mangled original punctuations of its archives. I make this note because even in the comments that follow, with quote marks missing, it's now hard to tell what are excerpts from another participant's comments and one's own replies to such comments. I don't have time to edit such now, but readers beware!
Nice work Wolf.
Peace out,
Toltechie
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Toltechie. Any such mangled punctuation's were not my doing. I believe you did some truly nice work in this series and hope to see you produce more valuable essays.
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Toltechie, this is helpful , thanks. I would like to read more from you too.
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I'd like to comment here. Toltechie's posts are most interesting, however, I continue not to take the FI seriously, nor the theory of Flyers. That is not to say we as humans are not subjected to social programming. Robert Monroe described similar notions when he talked about Loosh, and used the same analogy of milk cows being tended for their output.
I came across the following, in the introduction to Deepak Chopra's novel, "The Return of Merlin".Deepak Chopra wrote:"..."The Return of Merlin" is about waking up the wizard that sleeps deep within all of us, so that we can reclaim the field of pure knowledge and dream a new world into reality, from the purity of our hearts.
What society thinks of as reality today is the hypnosis of social conditioning, an induced fiction in which we are all collectively participating. It is the melodrama of a humdrum existence, filled with trite obsessions and trivial pursuits, wherein our only fate is to be born, grow old, and die.
If we could just realize it, the keys to the miracle of life lie in our own consciousness.
Life will bestow miracles on us when we begin to see it as an expression of the miraculous. Life itself is a miracle. We are here and now--that is a miracle.
The wizard's tower is that sacred place inside us, where there are gods and goddesses in embryo; their only desire is to be born, to manifest into form."
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I continue not to take the FI seriously, nor the theory of Flyers. That is not to say we as humans are not subjected to social programming. Robert Monroe described similar notions when he talked about Loosh, and used the same analogy of milk cows being tended for their output.
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I suppose I can recognize that my interpretation of these things is unique to me, no doubt. Too much talk of it among the masses would make me appear insane.
Here is how I see it: To undestand the Flyers, one must suspend the Rationality of modern thought found, in universities. The Flyers, like Jesus' ressurection, or my main interest, Native American lore, is legend or mythology. The trick here is that there are some thing unexplainable by science, although there may be resonance; String Theory, or the energy behind matter, in physics. Existence is infinity, beyond the ability of mortals to know-don Juan's 'the unknowable'. Infinity is where God, or the Eagle if you so choose, reside. My point is, it is just a handy way to explain the madness seen among humanity over the mellinia, and a signpost to the way out of madness. And before I forget, the Flyers concept is also non-dualistic. It removes the error of good and evil, tells us only to be aware of predators and act accordingly. As CC wrote, one can't blame a lion for the attack; it is the predator's nature and, human beings are now the dominant predator. ( can't help an aside here: I have seen 50 lab mice stuffed into a little 12 by 8 inch plastic container- they become cannibalistic and feed on each other from overpopulation)
I just find lore and sorcerers' stories useful, and, for so many generations, this oral tradition was the way knowledge and wisdom were passed on. It is my opinion that we have lost much as this tradition has faded, as well as the distance we now have from organic creation. That is, I follow don Juan's suggestion of talking to plants; as we should know as well, talking to animals is productive in our relations with them, so why not plants?
I have often said, to myself at least, that it does not matter if the Bible is true; same for Castaneda. First, this is a good way to avoid legalism, and secondly, wisdom can be found anywhere, if one has a 'landmark' and is sensitive to the information. This is part of Seeing, in my opinion. The secret is to accept the possibility of the existence of a thing. Since things of spirit cannot be proved, we test possibilities and affirm our personal experience. This is the meaning of the Biblical Hebrews 11:1-3, or Romans 1:20
So, don Juan sees grids of energy in and through everything as the source of our consciousness and perception. I see it as an ocean of spirit, not unlike the Earth's atmosphere; we swim in it and live or die by it.
There is no rational reason to be a warrior stalking the path with heart, other than an alignment with that 'ocean of spirit'.
Of course there is social programming, of all kinds. Our parents start it, we reinforce it in many ways. The idea is to 'shift the assemblage point' and step away from it. That is one reason you won't catch me in a Civil War(USA or CSA) reenactment. I've had enough of that and could care less! Tradition has its place, as well as its limitations. The Flyers are like sticky flypaper to ensnare us.
Happy Easter!
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Well said and thought out post Hawkeye. The crimes by humans upon this planet are the result of the FI. Read Jacque Cousteau's book about the history of marine life for a case in point.
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Thanks , Lonewolf. I'm glad we're on the same page here.
I return to this topic to explain myself more.
I have never been an atheist, but I had many questions about Christian dogma, ghosts, ESP, astrology and so on, kind of just hanging in the background. There were incidents nagging at my experience. Then, one day, surrounding the death of a friend, I was confronted with phenomena, which I thought was my own mind, but learned was from outside of myself. This made me a seeker of information about WHAT'S GOING ON? Leading me to Castaneda ,currently.
Some have more sensitivity to these things than I do. (some have less) And, I draw my own conclusions about things like astrology (it is likely a tool of sorcery, but not for me). This sensitivity can be painful for some. Some others come here by a different stimulus, like SSil.
My point here is that there is an unseen element; religions have attempted to define it, rather unsuccessfully. CC laid it out: do what works. Why get mad when you put water in your gas tank and the car won't run. Here is human folly, and we are full of it! We are all guilty of it, and that knowledge is the heart of the warriors' way, which leads us to 'Controlled Folly' . ie: we know we can be foolish, so when we experience success, be humble. There but for fortune go I.
Then, let us turn our attention to gratitude and responsibility for the gift of creation, and the forgotten magic of our lives in the other side. Native Americans swam in this sea of the Nagual. So did Australian Natives, with emphasis on non-violence; also the Pueblo of SW America.
My time is limited. Please forgive any mistakes in this post.
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Toltechie wrote:
I have become convinced that addressing this issue of the mind as the
foreign
installation should be the first priority of every spiritual aspirant.
Otherwise
any other effort regarding the many esoteric disciplines one can pursue
will
ultimately fail or even worse, serve to strengthen the grip of the mind
parasite. There is much more to the picture, but the bottom line is that
everyone needs to find their own unique strategy for prevailing against
this
invisible enemy. Only those who do so with unbending intent have any
chance of
succeeding.Having no experience with the FI or parasite I have had difficult to accept the concept. Rather I seen it as a metaphor for 'desires, anger and delusions' - the 3 buddhist poisons.
Resently I saw the parasit as I let go in of me in dreaming. What a creepy huge insect thing!!
Getting the grip on the source my emotional and thinking responses to situations has been my way for long time.
Im not a master of it, every moment is a battle. Cutting the inner dialog helps a lot.
Recaping emotional situations is a must - to dig out the fucker in the back of the head.
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Mornings Son wrote:Toltechie wrote:
I have become convinced that addressing this issue of the mind as the
foreign
installation should be the first priority of every spiritual aspirant.
Otherwise
any other effort regarding the many esoteric disciplines one can pursue
will
ultimately fail or even worse, serve to strengthen the grip of the mind
parasite. There is much more to the picture, but the bottom line is that
everyone needs to find their own unique strategy for prevailing against
this
invisible enemy. Only those who do so with unbending intent have any
chance of
succeeding.Having no experience with the FI or parasite I have had difficult to accept the concept. Rather I seen it as a metaphor for 'desires, anger and delusions' - the 3 buddhist poisons.
Resently I saw the parasit as I let go in of me in dreaming. What a creepy huge insect thing!!
Getting the grip on the source my emotional and thinking responses to situations has been my way for long time.
Im not a master of it, every moment is a battle. Cutting the inner dialog helps a lot.
Recaping emotional situations is a must - to dig out the fucker in the back of the head.
Don't forget, rejecting the flyer's thoughts.
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Mornings Son--
I would suggest that Flyers are the source of those Buddhist poisons you speak of. From birth, we are filled with social imperatives which encourage desires and anxieties. Once we are grown, we no longer associate these things with our life behaviors; they are forgotten. Recapitulation seems to help pull the roots of these programmed beliefs. Things were/are not always as seem to us in the present. Humans proudly proclaim progress, while blind to the consequences all around.
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Hawkeye Crow wrote:Mornings Son--
I would suggest that Flyers are the source of those Buddhist poisons you speak of. From birth, we are filled with social imperatives which encourage desires and anxieties. Once we are grown, we no longer associate these things with our life behaviors; they are forgotten. Recapitulation seems to help pull the roots of these programmed beliefs. Things were/are not always as seem to us in the present. Humans proudly proclaim progress, while blind to the consequences all around.
I Seen these Flyers you talk about resently, but would rather focus on programed belief contra spontaneity springing from no-mind instantly.
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