The Christian Cross

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Today I drove by a new church that is being constructed. I noticed they have some large wooden crosses they plan to erect.
The cross seems to be the dominant symbol of christ but I would say that Jesus would hate the symbol being associated with him. After dying on it in such a hateful fashion I would venture that he would never want to see such a thing again.
It is then my belief that this symbol was the flyers ideal and to feature christ nailed upon it is evil.

[koomw]

a perfect cross should symbolize human being. and healthy mind or something. Christianity should be burried into ground.

[HerbaMatey]

modern day churchs should have nuclear bomb symbols LoL

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Christmas christians say is a celebration of Jesus Christ.
Yet to me I see it still as holiday created by the flyer insane mind.

[explora]

I'm not so sure.
The symbol has been powerful for me. It came to me in a vision in the twilight zone.
Visualise the Christ symbol, above an arched doorway. This is a dreamgate - a way of self-realisation. Enter the dreamscape, and see why.
Nick

[Bob May]

I disagree. It may have been what the Flier wanted, but it didn't turn out the way he (or They) expected.
It is more in the lines of they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
God uses the "Evil people" as well as the "Good people" and situations to do His work.
Caiaphas, the High Priest at the time of the Crucifixion and also the man most responsible for the Crucifixion, Prophecied that it was ..."expedient for one man to die so that a whole people would be saved".
Again, it was a case of a man meaning evil by something and God meaning it for good.
It is interesting that not many days after the Crucifixion that the Apostles started doing miracles.
The Pharisees thought that they had "taken care of the problem" when they killed Jesus, ...Now they had eleven more just like him and Believers began to grow in numbers beyond anything they would have imagined.
"Unless a seed fall to the ground and die, it bringeth forth no fruit."Bright Flame

[Bob May]

As I said it may have been the flier's ideal before the fact, but it became the symbol for the greatest good ever done for mankind.
If you "look" at it, it was a sick, sad event.
If you "See" it, it was the greatest act of love in history.
Jesus said he could have had ten thousand angels there to help him if he wanted. But he didn't. He, of his own free will decided to go through with the shame, torture, and Crucifixion.
If I somehow could go back in time with the power to stop it, I would not.
If I did, I would be helping the Demons and harming mankind, and in the process, insulting God, Jesus, and his gift.
Bright Flame

[HerbaMatey]

Well alot of people put alot of energy into the christ symbol so if someone says something against that grain of inspiration they are bound to hit a wall of resent and disagreement.
The truth is as I see it that the sacrafice of christ did nothing. The world is still ruled by the fliers. Christ may have saved himself and offered people a path of freedom but this was nothing new to the time.
The roman cross is a symbol of blood lust and power mongering.
This same spirit has fueled christians all through the centuries!

[Nagual LoneWolf]

I do agree here with Matey. Who rules the world? They still feed on us. I "see" the cross and I see a distortion of what Christ stood for and I see evil. It is pure evil what the flyers did to Jesus and he thought/knew it to be "god's will" and he saw the flyers/demons and knew beyond us what was going to be but to have in our churches replicas of Jesus on the cross is a distortion rooted in evil.
The cross as a symbol as Explora sees it is different then I intend.
I say that Again the flyers take Jesus on the cross and make a statement of what is evil in us and make us worship it.
Jesus would not want his image worshipped as one that is nailed to a cross. The cross is a symbol of the flyers' victory and Jesus being cruciflied is not something I would say must happen. I would if possible go back in time and STOP this event.
That said let me add that I respect opposite views on this subject.

[Castor]

Very interesting discussion...
I think it was not Jesus who made Christianity to seem evil, it was not him who said that the cross is his necessary symbol.
He had only said and maybe showed that he had the way to reach the truth we all long for, that he can help us to find a way of peace, and that we shouldn't visit buildings of stone, nor to raise false statues to honor him; the only thing we really have to do is 'to raise a stone from the ground and we will find him'.
That is the meaning of the original Christianity, and the meaning of the origins of all religions. ''Open your eyes, 'see' what is surrounding you, realize that you are not the alpha and the omega of all. Don't get blind to all but your self and you will find a way.''
It is the man that corrupted all that good original ideas. Not the man like Jesus was - that lived with spirit and searched for truth, but the man as shallow as the rain on the road - that not only neglects spirit, but also thinks he will live forever and gives himself for right to underestimate all physical and metaphysical to his shallow personality and infinite selfasteamed ego.
The total sum of people like that is called SOCIETY. And that society is the way it is because money makes the world go around and all unnecessary is primary. People worship false values, they waste their lives in those false illusions.
The Catholic Churge is a political institution as any other, and is a part of the Society.
To have faith, to believe in is totally different thing and can't be socialized or institutionalized. It is an action, it sets up an intent, it collects power and gives a methods for a spiritual growth.
There really is a flyer in that all; Society, human politics, institutionalizing religion...
There maybe wasn't flyer present in Jesus, but was in everybody around him. And, even if Jesus had a flyer, he died fighting it, he tried to defeat it and reject it.
How did Castaneda die? The main question about Castaneda's legacy... All want to know how he died SO MUCH that they forget how he lived.
How he lived is what matters, how he fought to win freedom, how he lived his life full of constant battles with known and unknown. Did he finally manage? Did he escape the Eagle?
We don't know.
We can only say he truly tried to live like a warrior
After all Don Juan said that that being an impeccable warrior is a chance to have a chance.
The idea that Jesus had, was to show to people a way to deal with their flyers, a way for them to claim their freedom. His death was the example to people of that time (2000 years before today) that sometimes to die is the better choice than to live in slavery.
He has indeed chosen to die willingly. He had a power to escape but he didn't. He has made a choice and acted upon it.
Did it ever crossed your mind that he has died just to raise.
Has it ever occurred to you that only his body died, but his attention/spirit/awareness has gone into another domain, that the force of death didn't manage to disintegrate his awareness, that he was an impeccable warrior like Don Juan...Toltec's, true Buddhists, and true warriors in general, no matter how do they call that force that is leading them.
It isn't important how we call that force that creates and decreases; nagual, god, energy...important is that we are aware of its existence and of its presence in our lives and not to long only to define it and transform it to words, because words are mostly as shallow as the society that made them.
There is much more than this words and we know it, but our egos are sometimes hit by the flyer inside us.
There is an option, to fight it, or to let it beat us.
If we have to die fighting it, and we aren't meant to get freedom, than the most we can do is to die fighting it! That is the way of the warrior. Only average person will judge someone's attempts to claim freedom and someone's life full of battles for true power to see more, to be more.
Concerning cross; I don't see a reason why it should be bad or evil.
Some people can be bad and corrupted and the cross they made means nothing, but the cross Jesus died at, and the cross people like Explora see in their visions, people that fight for freedom, that means allot.
But this is only my opinion, consisted of words, that all in all, doesn't mean much.
Castor

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Well said Castor. Well said.

[Bob May]

I agree. And especially the part that he died to raise again.
I believe it was the night before the Crucifixion that he said: "For this reason came I into this world." He was speaking about the Crucifixion.
He also prayed that same night that we would be "One as He and the father were One."
The event of the Cross was actually three events in one that we are a part of. Reconciliation with God at the Cross, coming back to life at the Ressurection, and recieving a new Spirit at Pentecost.
All three of these events have far reaching effects upon us as human beings whether we understand them or not. I have been for years, and will be for probably the rest of my life, receiving awarenesses/revelations about these/this "three in one" events/event.
These realizations are to lead us to the final realization that we are "one with the Father" as Jesus was one with the Father. That is a positive symbol for me. But, as you have pointed out there will always be the "Fliers" yelling "Crucify him". That is the spirit of "Anti-Christ". He was revealed for who he really was in the "Midst of the Week" (when they screamed "crucify him"). Just as Jesus was revealed for who he really was at the end of the same week when he rose again from the dead and defeated death itself.
They were defeated, ...he came back to life! And he poured his Spirit upon "All Flesh".
When you begin to realize the magitude of what happened that week you can't help but feel sorry for those that were participants.
The Son of God stood before them about to give the greatest gift in history... and they killed him.
At some moment, not long after that, maybe at the moment of their deaths, or maybe before that they all came to the realization of what they had done.
And if reincarnation is a fact,... some of us may well have been there.

Bright Flame

[LillyMist]

The cross is a symbol that is about as universal and ancient as any symbol that has emerged out of man's psyche.
"The cross symbolizes the meeting at right angles of horizontals and perpendiculars. Forces going in quite opposite directions but meeting at a central point, a common ground.
It can symbolize the union of opposites and the dualism in nature. It can be the outstretch archetypal man with the infinite possibilities of growth being immortal.
It represents eternal life. The cross can symbolize the decent of Spirit into matter. It is the intersection of the level of time with the Eternity of the Spirit."
lilly

[HerbaMatey]

So it is like there are seperate realities to an understanding. At the cross murder is unforgiveable and a blessing of the spirit.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

It is a feeling...Explora looks at the cross and sees a doorway, Bob May sees Jesus Christ's and his sacriflice, I see it and see an evil symbol of humanity, Herbal sees it all.

[Bob May]

It is a feeling...Explora looks at the cross and sees a doorway, Bob May sees Jesus Christ's and his sacrifice, I see it and see an evil symbol of humanity, Herbal sees it all.
Yes that is my point.
We start our spiritual journey seeing things one way.
We gain other perspectives about humanity and the world around us as we go through veils and travel new paths.
These other viewpoints and perspectives are true in their own realms.
I've been surrounded by human beings Seeing their animal souls apparent in there faces. It was a true Seeing. But it was not all there is to humanity.
I choose not to live there. I can choose because I've been given choices. I do not lose the ability to see people as animals. I simply would rather look for somthing more in them.
During WWII General Patton moved more troups farther than any military commander in history. He did this to reach his goal...Germany...the heart of the problem.
One of his tactics was to by-pass certain Nazi occupied towns. Instead of staying and fighting, he simply went around them.
When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness he said "Get Thee behind me, Satan". And Satan left ihm "for a season", then Angels came and ministered to him. Then he went about doing his work.
Sometimes we fight. Sometimes we do not allow the fight to distract us from our goal.
We must always keep in mind that we are spiritual beings traveling in strange lands. Trying to make it back home. To the source.
Why waste time fighting those which we cannot destroy. Just leave them behind. They are angry because they "have but a short time. Leave them behind, they will be dealt with.Bright Flame

[toltechie]

Hi All,
Happy New Year!
Thanks for your observations on the Foreign Installations relationship to the Christian Cross. Here are some of my own humble offerings on the subject:
The symbol of the cross is ancient and most esoteric in its many layers of meanings. Here are some brief contemplations of my own on such:
The oldest cross was equal armed. It is a very ancient symbol for earth. It also implies the four directions the Toltecs refer to. It has compound implications. First, it is made of a horizontal line, which symbolizes the horizon and thus the planetary/form/matter/right side of creation. In Toltec terms this would imply the Tonal. The vertical line symbolizes the heavens and so the spirit/energy/power/left side. Thus, it would imply the Nagual. By joining the two lines, a central axis is formed implying the union of form and spirit or Tonal and Nagual. That center which creates the union and mediates between the two opposing principles is the heart of creation and the foundation/mystery of being. The symbol of the Christ, as originally formulated by seers represents the heart in us all and the path with a heart. It is indeed a symbol for humanitys potential as well as a symbol for our suffering. Most of us are born into this world in a state of bondage or slavery to material form and so suffer being nailed to the cross of earthly limitation. However, if one follows the hints implied by this symbol, one may see that the first ring of power or first attention/Tonal and the second ring or second attention/Nagual can be mastered through entering into the mystery of the third attention which controls both the others and is the third ring of power. To underscore this concept, the Christ was originally nailed to three locations on the cross. The geometric proportions of the Calvary Cross have its own further symbolic implications regarding the spiritual potential of humanity. It is in the dimensions of six squares arranged so that one could fold them up into a cube. The cube is yet another ancient symbol for earth or the form/matter side of creation. Folded out into the cross it is a symbol for human potential to spiritually unfold. The cross has five points, and 5 is a special and ancient symbol for man (humanity) as the microcosm or mirror of creation. The six squares in the Calvary Cross imply the ancient number for the universe or macrocosm. Six is also a Qabalistic symbol associated with the Messiah or Christ, which if it is understood as an esoteric formula symbolizes that center which unifies microcosm and macrocosm and thus is the Savior which liberates the Man and unfolds the God or full potential of the Magical Being.
Most religions were founded on esoteric principles by enlightened individuals and for a time helped liberate their devotees. But the Human Predator has always conspired to corrupt such liberating thinking into its evil opposite through cunning perversion of ideas, in order to keep humanity in a state of bondage/slavery. Hence the absolute mess, which, for example, modern exoteric Christianity has turned into with all its evil hypocrisy.
Peace,
Toltechie

[Crocossaurio]

(nhuckling...)
> Most religions were founded on esoteric principles by enlightened individuals and for a time helped liberate their devotees.
nhaic! croco here thought only croco was nuts... looks like ya're beating croco by large scales, oh Toltechie one...
da hell most of dem were founded on such principles... da hell most of deir founders were enlightened individuals (well, unless dey had some burning candle with dem, nhac, nhac...)... and da hell most of dem helped to liberate anybody other deir founders... from financial needs...
nhac, nhac... and techie... quit... ya won't hit croco with yer shotgun... fer croco is already pawing away... 'cos croco can see ya face... with all da smoke coming off yer ears an' all... nhaaaaaacc...nhac, nhac, nhac...

But the Human Predator has always conspired to corrupt such liberating thinking into its evil opposite through cunning perversion of ideas, in order to keep humanity in a state of bondage/slavery.

[toltechie]

Hi Croco,
> nhaic! croco here thought only croco was nuts... looks like ya're beating croco by large scales, oh Toltechie one...
Toltechie does not have large scales to beat you with...only croco has that
> da hell most of dem were founded on such principles... da hell most of deir founders were enlightened individuals (well, unless dey had some burning candle with dem, nhac, nhac...)... and da hell most of dem helped to liberate anybody other deir founders... from financial needs...
Point taken croco. I recognize your good intentions in keeping me honest. I was trying to make my response brief and so oversimplified the picture. I could have written a tome on the symbolism of the cross to do it proper justice also.
I should have said that most religions were inspired by spiritual traditions. In the case of Judeo-Christianity it would be Qabalah.
As far as the historical Jesus goes, he was possibly a political figure being of the royal bloodline of David. He road into Jerusalem on a white ass to fulfill earlier Old Testament prophesy regarding the coming of the Messiah. But are you implying that he also found it in his financial interest to be crucified?
I completely avoided dealing with him originally for a good reason. No one can historically substantiate much about him. He didnt leave us a single writing. There is historical evidence that he existed from Roman records. But for all intents and purposes the details of his life that have been recorded by the apostles in the New Testament are as mythical as the ancient Greeks stories of their gods.
Religiously, Jesus was himself a reformer of Judiasm. It was Paul who created Christianity and indeed everything you accuse him of being, he was and more!
I for one am not endorsing religiosity in any way. In fact Im completely opposed to that type of literal thinking.
Had the rest of the group participating in this thread not been blinded by their own personal prejudices, they would have seen, as me an Lilly did, universal spiritual meaning in the symbolism of the cross.
To say that the flyers invented the symbolism of Jesus crucified on the crossor to discuss the biblical account of Jesus as if it were literal factor even to scorn humanity as solely responsible for corrupting Christianitywake up folks! You are playing right into your predators hands. I could say more, but Ill leave it at that for now.
> nhac, nhac... and techie... quit... ya won't hit croco with yer shotgun... fer croco is already pawing away... 'cos croco can see ya face... with all da smoke coming off yer ears an' all... nhaaaaaacc...nhac, nhac, nhac...
Didnt know a croc with such a big toothy mouth as yours would scamper off so quickly. Crocos afraid of my shotgun? Perhaps the wheaties and aerobics every morning are paying off
Actually Im surprised at you for not finding fatter fish to fry in this thread.
> But the Human Predator has always conspired to corrupt such liberating thinking into its evil opposite through cunning perversion of ideas, in order to keep humanity in a state of bondage/slavery.
Does this mean you might agree with some of my points?
Peace,
Toltechie

[Crocossaurio]

(nhaucking uproarsly...)
> Point taken croco. I recognize your good intentions in keeping me honest.
point taken croco's tail (to be polite, nhac, nhac...)... croco has no such intentions, ya silly... croco has purposes fer having told ya wat croco did, but ya done it again and missed it... kapisce, oh hurried one? nhac, nhac, nhac... very well, croco'll do it again fer ya not to moan 'bout croco being an insesnsitive bugger... (dat's in croco's lingo)
> I could have written a tome on the symbolism of the cross to do it proper justice also.
there ya have it, oh hurried one... a "tome"? snap out of it, ya silly... a tome is a pile of many thousands of pages of info on an issue, a subject, a theme... ya don't have enough knowledge or understanding of yer own to write even a book of a hundred pages on da issue of da cross, let alone a tome... to write a tome on such issue, ya would have to heavily and boringly paraphrase and quote an awful lot of other sources and writers... so... ask yerself why in da name of crocoty (dat's croco's deity, croco's Infinity) did ya make such a bold and boasting suggestion here... 'bout "I could have written a tome..."... when ya know only too well dat ya can't do such a thingie even if ya wish it with all yer might... cut da bragging, ya silly, ya don't have no need nor use fer it...
'f course... ya don't have any need nor use fer such, but... ya **** certainly rejoyces in such boasting displays... do ya kapisce it now, oh hurried one? or does croco have to give ya some shaking bite on yer buttocks? (great goodness... da thought of it... of da taste of yer buttocks... haunting croco fer nights to end... nhac, nhac, nhac...)
and another thing, oh hurried one... ya said:
> It was Paul who created Christianity and indeed everything you accuse him of being, he was and more!
ya wreckless techie... when did croco accused dat bugger of whatever, huh... make no mistakes, croco does have more info on dat bugger dan wat ya can even dream with, but ya're saying dat croco accused him of whatever... when croco didn't do such a thingie... yet, anyways...
> No one can historically substantiate much about him. He didnt leave us a single writing. There is historical evidence that he existed from Roman records.
ya wreckless techie... how can ya make such a statement... haven't ya understood yet dat just because ya haven't ever come across anybody nor anything dat can offer proof of such a thingie, it doesn't necessarilly follow dat such a thingie is as ya're stating it to be? dat it just means exactly dat... meaning, dat ya haven't ever come across anybody nor anything offering ya such a proof... and of all people, ya should indeed be high on yer toes when ya make such statements in places where dis bugging croco swims around...
> Didnt know a croc with such a big toothy mouth as yours would scamper off so quickly.
oh... croco's toothless, ya see... and in croco's land da saying goes dat "insurance died of old age, but caution's still around"
> Crocos afraid of my shotgun?
yep.... 'cos croco doesn't wanna be anywhere near ya when ya shoot it and it blows in yer face... splatering yer surprise and annoyance all over... nhaaaaac....nhac, nhac, nhac, nhac, nhac.....
> Perhaps the wheaties and aerobics every morning are paying off
or perhaps yer **** is again clouding yer sights farther dan wat ya realize... which means dat it has already succeeded in starting to get a cunning, clever and efficient grip upon ya again... perhaps, mind ya, just perhaps...
> Actually Im surprised at you for not finding fatter fish to fry in this thread.
'f course ya are... no surprises there... would croco be a ****, croco would definitely make sure ya would be surprised at such...... fried food ain't healthy fer croco and neither is fat... croco has no business frying any fish... croco luves its fish fresh...
> But the Human Predator has always conspired to corrupt such liberating thinking into its evil opposite through cunning perversion of ideas, in order to keep humanity in a state of bondage/slavery.
> Does this mean you might agree with some of my points?
croco always finds it amuzing dat "points" stuff... points... wat points... when ya use something, make sure ya use it within da context in/through which it reached ya... otherwise ya'll be corrupting it... by taking it out of dat context... and when ya wish to make a "point", ya make sure ya use yer own blade, tempered by yer own hand and not somebody else's hand... by yer own fire, not somebody else's fire... in yer own forge, not somebody else's forge...
yes, croco agrees with some of da thingies ya say, but such agreement is absolutely irrelevant and worthless... fer wat matters is not whom or wat might agree with ya... kapisce, oh mighty hurried one? (snhile - dat's "smile" in croco's lingo)
ya know wat? croco's gonna swim away to another pond now... and if ya have some remaining good sense, ya'll leave this as is and won't tickle croco any further... croco might be toothless, but croco's damn gums sure are used to chew and bite hard nuts... nhac, nhac, nhac...
kind nhackings to ya...
Peace,

[Crocossaurio]

Toltechie, on a more serious note, here's something you have missed entirely. You said:
> Actually Im surprised at you for not finding fatter fish to fry in this thread.
I have no business frying any fish, fat or skin. You seem to completely disregard the fact that I'm not on any holly crusade nor am I any sort of saviour of any sort. If folks wish to swallow whatever they are told without using their brains to ponder upon what they are fed, it's their business and concern, not mine and I have no business trying to "convert" anybody to any ideas, mine or from whomever else's.
Kindest Regards
J.

[DoktorGreen]

Much of history is tainted, since it is written by the victors. In the early ages, when there was only one church, the nuns played a very important part. they were healers, using massage, pressures, and stones to help the parrish. There was a stone (called Chiastolite today) that formed in long tube-like sticks... several inches long. This stone was used as a healing massage tool. At the end of the stone (either end) was a cross that was naturally formed. This stone was sliced into small slices and carried by people as a symbol of the church and healing power. From this, the rosary and cross became a more prominent symbol in the church (even though the crucifix has always been a symbol).
As the nuns became more effective with their work, they began to become the center of the church. Rome was certainly upset by this and gradually instituted the Inquisition to remove this focus on the nuns. Some nuns refused to stop helping the people and were killed or cast out. Others went into hiding and the Pagan movement began. The Chiastolite stone tubes were the forerunner of the wand. This stone is still around today and still used.
Chiastolite
Again, the victors write the history books.For the Standing Mother,
DG

[Guest]