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I don't want to confuse things by starting another post about a post, but I also do not want to cover up Doktor Green's post with mine. I have a bad
habit of commenting too quickly and I think maybe others miss his ideas because my name is there.
Entering into the filaments sounds like a good idea to me. In fact I think that has happened to me at some level. (See the great bands of Emanations and the
Coat of many colors post) Though I believe Doktor Green is speaking about a higher level of the same experience. I did not lose my individuality, but the
experience seemed to fit the description of several different things. The Great Bands of Emanations, The Coat of Many Colors of Joseph and the Baptism of Fire.
It also fit Jacob's description of a ladder set up that reached from heaven to earth upon which angels ascended and descended.
In the Qabala there are 4 worlds and a Tree in each world. The "same" experience can be had in the third world and repeated in the second and yet the
experience would be so far above the first as to be almost unrecognizable.
There is also the "belief" or "method" that states that to view the Tree ( the pattern of all there is) objectively is a completely
different experience than to "back into the Tree" which is to experience it subjectively.
In other words, you can become "One With" the Emanations.
The parallels to the above experiences are too numerous to mention here, but also too similar to ignore.
The only way I can understand it is that they are speaking of the same experiences only possibly in more than one world.
The "worlds" are;
Emanation, or divine world.
Creation, where Biblical description begins. Where Archangels dwell.
Formation, where Carlos' dreaming occurs
Making, where normal people reside.
Lines are not hard and fast and different schools of thought have different terminology.
The Eagle itself is just a way of speaking. There is no Eagle. Don Juan said it looked like an eagle and so they called it that. Doktor Green's vortex
seems to fit the bill.
But whatever it is, in my mind it is obviously a line to be crossed into "Something Else"
Possibly the divide between the World of Formation and the World of Creation in Qabalistic terms.
To be caught inside the great bands of Emanations in one world may be what I experienced.
To be "One With" those lines in a higher world may be the loss of individuality.
But I still say something of us survives to appreciate the Oneness.
Otherwise, what's the point?
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Thanks for posting that.
In Vajrayana Buddhism they have a similar view.
There are Three Bodies, the Dharmakaya or Wisdom Body, the
Sambhogakaya or Enjoyment Body or Emanation Body, and Nirmanakaya or Active (Physical) body.
These 3 bodies are the bodies of a Buddha or a Christ, we all have all of these bodies. But most people don't recognize more than that the Nirmanakaya in
this life.
A Bodhisattva, an immortal, goes as far down as the Sambhogakaya generally. So if we want to contact them we have to Dream, or enter Samadhi state at their
Sambhogakaya level.
There are Ten Bhumis or levels of Bodhsattvas in
Sambhogakaya.
Some are at pretty high levels and not really accessible to most of us. If we drop Sambhogakaya and enter pure Dharmakaya, we transcend this world and
can't return.
Bodhisattva, hand out at the higher end of the spectrum unless they choose rebirth. Which is pretty rare.
So, what is the Eagle? According to Doc's explanation the Eagle is probably the process of Rebirth or Recursion into Samsara. Bascially if we don't
get if right our consciousness is cleansed of our former personality and a new one incarnates, according to our karmic circumstances. So the Eagle is the
Black Hole, that's why know one remembers their former lives. Although I have regressed people, I can't attest to whether they their experiences were
their actual past lives or someone else's or what.
The really creepy thing is that I remember the Eagle process. Through my process of recapitulation I re-membered the birth/death process.
But ... I went through the Eagle and I am still Here. We all did. If you recap properly you will remember it. But there is no memory prior to that event.
It is a singularity. So avoiding it would be really the goal. The Tibetans say that recognizing the Dharmakaya body or Clear Light consciousness at the
moment of death is the only antidote.
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"It is a singularity. So avoiding it would be really the goal."
"...because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it..."
Man is body, soul and spirit according to the Bible.
The quote above in the book of Ecclesiastes. says that when the silver cord is loosed the spirit returns to God.
But as you say the spirit returning to God is not necessarily a "good" thing.
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the SECOND DEATH."
Here in the book of Revelations it mentions the second death or death of the soul. (the first death being that of the physical body)
My point being that if your soul (everything you think and feel, all of your memories and experiences, etc.) dies and your spirit returns to God, how would you
know or even benefit? It would be like pouring a cup of water back into the ocean. Eaten by the Eagle.
On the other hand if you "overcome" as stated above, your soul does not die and your soul and spirit return together to that ocean of consciousness
we call Spirit, God or Nagual. That, I would equate with "slipping past the Eagle" or "becoming one with God."
There has to be something of us there or all would die the same and dissolve back into Spirit for no reason whatever.
Paul said it best, "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink;
for tomorrow we die."
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Yes well if at the time of death we are not identified with our personality, our body, "our stuff", then we have the opportunity to notice the clear
light consciousness, and become "one with God".
Mark 6 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where
thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart
be also.
So wherever our heart is at time of death is critical, and that will depend lawfully on how we spent our time on Earth and what we have
"understood", and what kind of wisdom we accrued during our stay. The final act is not that important, as our whole life shapes the final act, so to
speak, in that our whole life shapes the outcome. Whatever that is.
On the other hand if you "overcome" as stated above, your soul does not die and your soul and spirit return together to that ocean of consciousness
we call Spirit, God or Nagual. That, I would equate with "slipping past the Eagle" or "becoming one with God."
That's what the Tibetans call the Dharmakaya or Wisdom Body, "becoming one with God". If we identify with that at time of death, we
slip past the Eagle, we "go Beyond" as they say.
The easiest way through is to not identify with your "stuff". Eventually it becomes clear that there is something beyond "stuff" not some
just kind of nihilistic voidness.
Recognizing that our "treasures upon Earth" are impermanent is essential here. So if we are attached to them at the time of death there will be a
reluctance to see Reality, and an attachment, or grasping to what we are loosing.
I agree with you, we have a possibility to continue on. And I feel it's completely lawful, and there is very little chance involved in the outcome.
What do you think the Second Death refers to? The end of the planet, end of the physical universe, some Cosmic event?
Eventually the entire universe goes through a Singularity and is reborn in a Big Bang according to the Upanishads.
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Interesting comments here. Respectfully speaking, I might venture that all of them,.... even the biblical quotes and Eastern traditional assumptions are
composed from the Tonal. I mean to say that there is an assumption of relativity inherent in these ideas. Relativity is an aspect of duality. Separate
perspectives. Unfortunately, just speaking about these things fixes the perspective in an observing capacity.
Instead of speculating, why not take the plunge? Awaken in dreaming. Point at objects until you find an energy generating item/entity. How do you know? It
doesn't waver or disappear! It gets clear and concise! Lock you attention on it. Command the 2nd attention to "awaken"; out loud. (If you awaken
in the bed, hunt and save power. You need more to stay in the 2nd attention.) Now, take an inventory of your location. Find an object again. Again, command the
2nd attention to "awaken"; out loud! Look around again. Continue this method through all the layers of duality and upon reaching that limit, one
'sees' the filaments,... the web,... the Eagle's emanations.
Examine the fibers. Pick one. Stop the world (stop the expectations that tie us to duality). Again, examine the filament. Look close. Move very close. Look at
the pulsing that is occurring. Look inside the fiber. Move close to what you see inside the filament. Flowing, pulsing. Look! You are the fiber! You are all
filaments! You/we/me are everything. See and feel the currents of energy that we are, underlying all. Recognize the sparkling, twinkling activity on the edge
of duality that is what we call life here. Duality is so obvious from there. Its a monstrous, thick, tangle of fibers that compose a wall or shoreline in the
energetic sea. Constant struggle and pressure going on in that thickness.
We are consuming it, little by little. We are the Eagle, consuming and transforming duality into oneness.......
Don't take my word for it....
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Hi Vrill,
I agree with you completely but only want to make clear that the "stuff" I assume we bring with is not desire for physical or even psychic, soul
stuff. These things are difficult to put into words. But the sense that we "are", ...our own consciousness mixing with the One Spirit. Not becoming
nothing, but a sense that we still "are" and experiencing.
What do you think the Second Death refers to? The end of the planet, end of the physical universe, some Cosmic event?
I think the second death or death of the soul is losing the sense that we "are". Oblivion, back to the raw material of the one Spirit without keeping
our separate coscoiusness, and watching as it dissolves, knowing we will never be again.
It may involve pain, or it may not. But I believe it would be a truely fearful awareness. Utter hopelessness.
Eventually the entire universe goes through a Singularity and is reborn in a Big Bang according to the Upanishads.
Like the rounds of manifestation and unmanifestation. Kaliyuga? God sleeping and awakening in unbelievably long cycles?
I'll worry about one cycle at a time, thank you. This one is complicated enough.
"end of the physical universe, some Cosmic event?"
I don't look at the end times as most do. It doesn't add up if compared to some of the things Jesus said.
In my way of looking at it it is an individual Spiritual experience. I don't have time now, have to go to work, but I would direct you to read Margaret
Macdonald's vision. (you can find it with a web search. A 16 year old girl in 1800's Scotland, in my opinion, had an awareness really, not a vision,
that fits best what I believe.
I would be glad to discuss it later.
It is not the end of the planet, but our awareness of the end of "our personal world."
The book of Revelation of Jesus Christ is John's personal vision. We are to have our own. It was not the Revelation of John, it was the Revelation TO John.
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It is not the end of the planet, but our awareness of the end of "our personal world."
Bob: That's what I think too. It's always personal.
Doc:
Thanks for the suggestions. Yeah, I get that, when one tries to explain this stuff, it usually devolves into conceptualization which comes from the Tonal.
It's even harder if you come from one Tradition or another, and it has no meaning if not experiential.
Most of my working with non-duality comes when I am doing meditation or walking. It's like what you say however.
If I am walking outside I might come upon the lake near my house, a tree, a rose ... if one stops and listens
... there is this sometimes sense of the Separation inside with what is outside, which if one can go into it very deeply turns into an end of the separation
with what is outside, or simply "What Is". I don't know if this makes sense, but ending the separation, really ending it, brings about a
reintegration of the Self.
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Hi Doktor,
"even the biblical quotes and Eastern traditional assumptions are composed from the Tonal. I mean to say that there is an assumption of relativity
inherent in these ideas. Relativity is an aspect of duality. Separate perspectives. Unfortunately, just speaking about these things fixes the perspective in an
observing capacity. "
The assumptions are composed from the Tonal, but as an atttempt at communicating experiences of the Nagual.
But you are right. Speaking or writing about these things dilutes and changes them, and almost ruins the experience.
But communicating seems as important as experience in the respect that if it is all just for our own benefit it is, in the end, not even helping us.
"There is a time to speak and a time to keep silent."
"Instead of speculating, why not take the plunge? Awaken in dreaming."
I am working on that, but my progress is almost a mystery to me as I remember very little of my dreams. To my recollection I have had very few lucid dreams or
definite out of body type dreams. But I have had some.
"Examine the fibers. Pick one."
"We are consuming it, little by little. We are the Eagle, consuming and transforming duality into oneness....... "
Interesting perspective and excercise. I will try to remember it if I ever run across the Eagle in dreaming.
Most of my experiences, (but not all), with Spirtual things have taken the form of waking visions, understandings or revelations. And have come as the result
of meditation, prayer for wisdom and understanding and speculation on previous experiences and scriptual passages that seem to relate to these experiences. I
have also had dreams that began while sleeping and continued after I awakened only to find that they were "visitations" (I don't like that word
really. Too Catholic sounding, but it hits the nail on the head.)
If you have any tips on remembering my dreams I will be glad to hear them. I am reading The Eagle's Gift again and I am convinced that the book is mainly
about this problem of remembering the Second Attention experiences had while dreaming. I feel many times that something important has happened but watch it
fade upon awakening. It is like trying to hold a handful of air.
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Astute comments, as always, Bob. I will offer one suggestion for dream recall. Get a small recorder. Put it within inches of you. Set your alarm to go off 2
hours after falling asleep. Upon waking, grab the recorder and describe your dreaming. On days off, set the alarm for 2 hours before normal awakening time.
Record briefly and go back to sleep with the plan of returning to the same dream. Next time you wake, record again. And record every AM first thing. Even
feelings, colors, people, .... whatever. After a short time, you will be dreaming and recalling regularly. Its like learning anything.
Now, if you REALLY want to accelerate your dreaming process, go to this link and spend some cash!
http://thedreammask.com/
I have used this device and I attribute much success to it! Several lucid dreams in a night, at times! Beware. It requires a warrior's lifestyle, or it
will eat you power and then eat your physical power......
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