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Emptiness and Objects
#1
The first truth, he said, was that our familiarity with the world we perceive compels us to believe that we are surrounded by objects, existing by themselves and as themselves, just as we perceive them, whereas in fact, there is no world of objects, but a universe of the Eagle’s emanations.
“The first truth about awareness, as I have already told you,” he began, “is that the world out there is not really as we think it is. We think is is a world of objects and it’s not.”
He paused as if to measure the effect of his words. I told him that I agreed with his premise, because everything could be reduced to being a field of energy.
“The first truth is that the world is as it looks and yet it isn’t,” he went on. It’s not as solid and as real as our perception has been led to believe, but it isn’t a mirage either. The world is not an illusion, as it has been said to be; it’s real on the one hand and unreal on the other. Pay close attention to this, for it must be understood, not just accepted. We perceive. This is a hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.”
Fire From Within.
        The world of objects that seemingly surrounds us must be accounted for and it must be assessed correctly. Don Juan does well to point this out to Castaneda but he does not go far enough and so Castaneda has trouble penetrating the truth of this first truth about awareness, as does Shamanism in general and particularly the teachings of Carlos Castaneda.
         Don Juan muddied the waters somewhat when he introduced the notion of an Eagle and an energetic universe. Although Don Juan was able to convince Carlos that the Eagle was merely an image and that in actuality there was no Eagle, Carlos was still left with the idea that there was an energetic reality that was the source of these mysterious emanations an entity even, because even when stripped of the image of an eagle this source still had attributes according to Don Juan.
          Now Don Juan has introduced Carlos to an energetic universe and he has tied this in Carlos’ mind to the attainment of “seeing”. So we see the result of this type of introduction when Carlos says, “He paused as if to measure the effect of his words. I told him that I agreed with his premise, because everything could be reduced to being a field of energy.”  This is unfortunate because the world of material objects has merely been exchanged for a world, a supposedly more real world, of energetic objects.
           This leaves us with the notion that the first truth about awareness will remain obscure to us unless we too are able to see objects as they really are that is to say as energetic realities. This does little to help us understand the nature of reality and the world of objects any objects, material, mental, energetic or otherwise.
           Coming to terms with emptiness is not easy. Yet if we can understand emptiness then we will understand objects. Many people when asked what is emptiness will respond with ideas of what they imagine to be the opposite of form. Just like Castaneda has done above. Emptiness is indeed difficult to speak of.
            It has been said in the Ghost Dog clip that,
“Emptiness is form and form is emptiness.” Now this is very true....but why is it true? And why is form not the opposite of emptiness?
            If we wish to understand this world of objects we need to understand the nature of their perceived existence.  Don Juan says, objects are not solid? Don Juan seems to be suggesting it is because they are “really” energetic. But why does the fact that someone can see energy directly lend credence to the idea that the energetic perception of an object is any more “real” that the sensational perception of the eyes? And after all even matter when broken down into its compound parts is seen to be energy.
           So again, what does it mean to say that form is emptiness? That objects are empty? To draw close to this question will entail looking into existence itself. Existence is another notion that Shamanism and Sorcery take for granted ie; that existence just is sort of thing and that is it very mysterious. But what has formed our sense of existence itself? In fact it is hardly noticed!
           For the purpose of this inquiry let us first examine material objects any object will do. When an object is perceived a cup, a chair a table a car etc. We cannot deny that we see it. The object is available to our senses. We become familiar with the object’s form. Then we start to discriminate the object. We start to name the objects and give meaning  based upon distinctions. Not only do the distinction separate the object from other perceived objects but the sense of a perceiver is implied.
           Along with this appearance of objects comes the idea that the objects exist as independent realities. For something to exist it had to come be. Now we have attributed to the object...being! No one told us to do this we just do it! We attribute being and realness to objects. We establish in our own minds substantiality where none can be found! Once an object has “come to be” in our minds we expect it to either sustain until it ceases to be or we expect it to evolve and become and transform. So along with our idea that something inherently exists more than just an appearance, comes the notions of birth, life and death.
            Now if we look at time, an entity without form. Can moments be isolated or is this illusion too? Is there any such thing as a ‘moment’? Take an hour. It is made up of 60 mins. A minute made up of 60 seconds. A second made up of even smaller units of measurement and so on and so on. The only thing we can take away from this view of time is that it is beginningless. It never actually began. If something never actually began how can it be said to exist?
            Back to our objects for a moment. As I said when we perceive an object if we do not look closely we will in an endeavor to substantiate it invest in it the value of having begun based on the discriminations of our minds. But if we look at any object closely we see that it is compounded just like the units by which we measure time. As we try to establish the absolute physical existence of an object we find we are unable to do so. Each material object is made up of many molecular units compounded to give an appearance. So can we point to any object and say that it has an inherent existence of its own? If we cannot find the beginning of a molecule either in time or space then how can we establish a cup or a car other than as a mere concept.
            Now this line of inquiry has deep implications. I will just throw one out there. Movement. How can anyone deny movement? Yet think about it. What would be moving and where would it be moving from and where would it be moving to and how long is it taking? You see what I mean? We all know the fundamentals of how a projector works, images being passed quickly before light and projected onto a screen through a lens. We all know there is not actually anybody on the screen that has being and is moving etc yet it has that appearance. Same with a mirror. We all know that what we see reflected in a mirror is not actually “real” and yet we have trouble see that the same is true when we look outwardly upon a world of objects. Because we do not look closely we actually believe something is happening.
       Long-short. Big-small. Far-near. Inside-outside. Up-down. This-that. Here-there. Finite-infinite. Eternal-temporal. Fast-slow. Beginning-end. Straight-crooked. Round-square. Being-non being. Birth-death. These are the ‘building blocks’ of our sense of an existence. You cannot have one without the other. They arise together. This is the essence of dependent origination. We cannot establish a single object as having an inherent reality of its own. Objects cannot be said to possess an essence of individuality particular to themselves in such a way that actual independence can be established.
       It is the mind that attributes substance to that which has none. It is the mind that grasps after existence attributing substantial inherent reality where none can be found. When objects are incorrectly assessed they disturb the mind, confusing and obscuring in their accumulation.
       When we look at the world of objects, we see that it is empty. This is emptiness. Form is emptiness and emptiness is form but in saying this we should not grasp after emptiness as if it too were a thing to be substantiated. Emptiness too does not exist as an independent reality.
       There are many trying to escape the world of form but it is this world of form that gives us the opportunity to know emptiness.
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#2
We are here to become what can't be named Mornings Son





So much is assumed by this statement......We..here...something that cannot be named....and most of all the idea that we can become.

If anything this statement serves to highlight things that obscure. Mornings Son is suggesting that we can become that which cannot be named. He is not suggesting that we already are that. He has a definite idea of that which cannot be named and what he knows of it he thinks that we are not that also based on very definite ideas about what he thinks we are at present. If possible I think it might be helpful if we could explore this idea of "becoming". Is it actually possible, this kind of activity?
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#3
Very good post Lex! And, Namaste!

Allow me to add this quote to it from the opening of Longchenpa's Treasury of Natural Perfection :

First let me tell you about "absence",
the absence that is essentially emptiness:
in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space
whatever appears is absent in reality.

In the universal womb that is boundless space
all forms of matter and energy occur as the flux of the four elements,
but all are empty forms, absent in reality:
all phenomena, arising in pure mind are like that.

Magical illusion, whatever its form,
lacks substance, empty in nature;
likewise, all experience of the world, arisen in the moment,
unstirring from pure mind, is insubstantial evanescence.

Just as dream is part of sleep,
unreal gossamer in its arising,
so all and everything is pure mind,
never separated from it,
and without substance or attribute.

Experience may arise in the mind
but it is neither mind nor anything but mind;
it is a vivid display of absence, like magical illusion,
in the very moment inconceivable and unutterable.
All experience arising in the mind,
at its inception, know it as absence!

Just as the objective field is absent in reality,
so "the knower"--in actuality pure mind,
in essence an absence--is like the clear sky:
know it in its ineffable reality!
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#4
becoming as sky mind or sky pilot...
could we really do away with words that label the things that become the objects? objects of desire, greed or want.
 Who tells us that it supposed to go this way not that way after it gets out of the box?
forgetting about the box with the object inside , the picture and instructions it comes with.
 good posting!
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#5
yeah, dependent origination is powerful stuff.



no beginnings, no endings, so where is the end of an object and the beginning of another? The glass holds water, so where the water ends the glass begins, and the table the glass is sitting on is where the glass ends and the table begins, and the floor the table is placed on is where the table ends and the floor begins. So this can be seen and said these objects exist separately...but none of these objects can be taken away to a void-like "place" where each object is the only object in existence. All objects are "here" simultaneously, together. The water may evaporate, the glass become sand, the table ash, the floor earth, but all still "here" together.
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#6
Fool, funny you should post those words from Longchenpa.
Just last year I was reading those very same words and the multiplicity of objects just dissolved leaving me with a sense of liberation from existence. Objects never returned!
When looking at reflections in a mirror, notice the perfect accommodation. It is not like one reflection of an object has to move over in order to make room for another. The objects that are reflected,  they cannot be said to be on the surface of the mirror as if the surface of the mirror is distinct and sitting just on top of it is the reflection of a distinct object. Neither can the object said to be in the mirror somewhere. No the reflection is indistinguishable from the reflectiveness of the mirror itself. Like the moon's reflection on a lake. One reflectiveness with the appearance of many objects that look individual and separate and multiple. The essence of mind is like that.....accommodating perfectly. But when the mind discriminates objects it becomes disturbed.
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#7
I don't have trouble believing in independent origination with objects but lets try to do this with human beings and things that are not man-made. We have the photon , a tiny quantum of light, that is present and in common with everything in the universe. Einstein and Planck understood this. Objects like rocks, wood, sand, time, don't hold memory fields or emotions -only humans try to make a something from  a nothing. Humans breathe life and memory into objects that become their monuments and man-made institutions.  Humans do breath and have memory bands or consciousness and this also has no beginning and no ending just like history.
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#8
Nobody ever mentioned independent origination, only you. If you were not so eager to speak you might be able to hear.
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#9
Experience may arise in the mind

but it is neither mind nor anything but mind;

it is a vivid display of absence, like magical illusion,

in the very moment inconceivable and unutterable.

All experience arising in the mind,

at its inception, know it as absence!



Just as the objective field is absent in reality,

so "the knower"--in actuality pure mind,

in essence an absence--is like the clear sky:

know it in its ineffable reality! Longchenpa







What is this absence Longchenpa is referring to?

This "vivid display of absence" ......look closely. Break through is in these very words!
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#10
"only you" is an assumption and shows quick discrimination with mind over another mind.
Sun in silent sky
Self in silent sky
Silently separate form
Imagination
Begin and end with silence
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#11
lex icon wrote:We are here to become what can't be named Mornings Son





So much is assumed by this statement......We..here...something that cannot be named....and most of all the idea that we can become.

If anything this statement serves to highlight things that obscure. Mornings Son is suggesting that we can become that which cannot be named. He is not suggesting that we already are that. He has a definite idea of that which cannot be named and what he knows of it he thinks that we are not that also based on very definite ideas about what he thinks we are at present. If possible I think it might be helpful if we could explore this idea of "becoming". Is it actually possible, this kind of activity?Can't recall I told you I got a definite idea of what that is that can't be named.
What I mean is to point to 'Beyond'  Tonal - word&concept land.
To become 'that' whatever it is, is for me a Realization of 'something' and its absurd to describe it.
Yes I believe we can 'become what can not be named'
When I read what I just typed - Im reminded that Im surrounded by Infinity and that I really knows ****. Still I love experiencing Life and feel a lot of gratitude for that.
Lex why are you here?
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#12
Can't recall I told you I got a definite idea of what that is that can't
be named.
Well yes, yes you did. You might not know exactly what it is you are referring to, but you have a very definite idea that it exists and that it is different from you at present and that you can become that which you imagine.
I think most of us are aware of the limitation of words.
To become 'that' whatever it is, is for me a Realization of 'something'
and its absurd to describe it.
Yes I believe we can 'become what can
not be named' MS
When you speak like this it reminds me of born again Christians when pressed for justification for their beliefs sooner or later play the faith card. It would be more helpful if you would describe not what it is (which you have stated cannot be done and would be absurd to even try) but why you believe you can become that which cannot be named and let us examine it together.
I am reminded that I am surrounded by Infinity...MS
This suggests a subject that is surrounded by an object called infinity. This is an assertion of a subject and an object. This is how you are expressing your experience of being.
Zen considers both these poles of experience illusory and assertions affirming such things delusional. I only point this out because after all this thread is called ZEN MAGNETIC.  I am assuming this thread is sympathetic to Zen and an appropriate place to speak of such things and explore the implications involved. If the implications of Zen are offensive to your beliefs I understand. The radical appreciation of awareness expressed by Zen is very dry!
Lex why are you here?MS
I received an email from Wolf inviting me to this new thread as I assume many were informed in like manner of this Zen Magnetic. From there I felt drawn to participate. Zen Magnetic I guess. If you could, allay your suspicions. I do not have an agenda that I am aware of.
LexSmile
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#13
First part of response to Lex.

Glad you are here Lex



- I meant not why you are on this forum Lex. Rather in the line..

MS: 'We are here to become what can't be named'

Why are you here?
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#14
Belief in the possibility is a tool for me on the path to realize that possibility. One day I can say Know instead of believe.



Zen do recognize that we experience life from a point - our body - and yes on the path to Enlightenment one must let go of that experience. To let go of Mind and Body completely.



Then one returns to experiencing Infinity and forms from the point of view of our individual Body and Mind.
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#15
Ohhh Why am I HERE lol? Not why am I posting here, lol?
I no longer ask myself this question. It is no longer a mystery. Buddhism speaks of Skandhas or the five aggregates.  There are four formless aggregates, sensation, perception, mental formations and consciousness and the fifth aggregate is form or matter.  These aggregates are empty of any substantial inherent existence of their own. They mutually condition one another. Once it is seen how they mutually condition so that a sense of a subjective self emerges surrounded by external objects one knows why one is here and appears to exist independently.  The subjective self is merely the product of this conditioning nothing more. The last thing we want to do is develop this sense of a subjective self in relation to a phenomenally perceived external existence that would only serve to affirm both subjective self and external existence as independently real. This would only obscure awareness further and add to the accumulations of beginningless time. I can no longer seek a purpose for this illusory idea of self.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha
However how to proceed in light of this? A good place to start is by understanding the extreme exaggerations and claims of metaphysicians in their attachments to such notions of being and non-being, Eternalism and nihilism etc.
Buddha offered a way to navigate this. He called it the Middle Way.  It is unfortunate that today many have heard of this Middle Way and yet insist on interpreting it in terms of a middle way life style that avoids the extreme of an ascetic life and the indulgence of a worldly life referring as they do to when Buddha gave up his extreme ascetic practices. (What a relief for them lol)
Instead the Middle Way offers us a way to avoid the four assertions and the entanglements they lead to. The four assertions when applied to any THING state;
It is
It is not
It is neither
It is both
These assertions only lead a person into indefensible positions of fantasy and imagination.
http://www.tibetanclassics.org/pdfs/SixtyStanzas.pdf
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#16
Lex how do you live/manifest that truth you state?
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#17
These truths liberate from existence.
If you believe Don Juan burned from within and left this world for an alternate reality, another layer of the onion, I assure you he will still have to deal with existence. Simply manipulating perceptions or exchanging one set of perceptions for another, ie; matter for energy does not help know the nature of reality!
The first major relief that came from the absence of objects is that the compulsion to establish being as substantial along with the imagined substantial and inherent being of objects instantly evaporates.
For instance do you imagine that you move and have your being in a mysterious universe that exists? If so ask yourself why you think this, what instantly is apparent is the compulsive grasping trying to affirm as “real” and substantial that which cannot be affirmed that way. It only appears that things are happening! Things appear to come into being, endure for awhile and then cease to be.
Now we are familiar with the Buddhist terminology of grasping. We usually associate this with the aggregate of sensation. When we do this we apply grasping to the notion of likes and dislikes that we like certain sensations and try to repeat those sensations because of the pleasure involved and avoid the ones we have aversion to because of the pain involved. However the compulsive grasping I am referring to is the confused reaction to a world of objects, where we do not stop ourselves but are driven to attribute an unsubstantiated ‘realness’ to the objects we perceive. Most of us are not aware of just how driven we are when it comes to this.  The relief I referred to is when this compulsion ceases completely and multiplicity gives way to sameness effortlessly.
If we do not understand the notion of existence and how it traps awareness we might not even look for relief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmEPXXJ4sKw
“You think that’s air your breathing now.....hmmm?” Morpheus
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#18
It is very liberating to experience all things as the same sameness. It appears that thought alone creates the idea of separateness of objects. Since these are just "ideas" about "objects" they can just as easily be dropped. Then what is the perceiver left with?



Freedom from being bound to the multitude of "things" that bind by thought of "things" alone.



So to act in a world of things, knowing first hand the experience of the emptiness of said things is the most crucial of all perceptions.



"Don Juan went on explaining that the moment one crosses a peculiar threshold in infinity, either deliberately or, as in my case, unwittingly, everything that happens to one from then on is no longer exclusively in one's own domain, but enters into the realm of infinity." ASOI



The problem with words is not the words...but the intended "beingness" of things. So infinity "becomes" a "thing" by the intended thought of it so and one has a very difficult time getting beyond this. Dependent origination is very liberating in this regard.



So what was "one's own domain" DJ refers to? An intended "beingness". And what is "entering into the realm of infinity"? Not intending beingness. Seeing that beingness is merely an intention.
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#19
English translation by Barron Padma Translation Committee (1998)
Barron's render an embedded quotation of this tantra within their translation of Lonchepa's "Way of Abiding"
Lonchepa's Way of Abiding
Ünderstand all aspects of awareness to be free of ordinary consciousness, which envolves concepts of identity.
Similarily, bring this understanding to the point of understanding that all phenomena are unceasing. Bring the understanding
of what manifests in any way whatsoever to the point of understanding that it is unborn. Bring the understanding what is
unborn to the point of understanding that it does not come and go. Bring the understanding of what does not come and go to
the point of understanding that it is nondual. Bring 
the understanding of what is nondual to the point of understanding that it is
absolutely free of limitations. Similarly, bring this understanding to the point of not conceptualizing or thinking about any
phenomenom in any way. Bring this understanding of all phenomenom to the point of experiencing their essence lucidly and 
without distraction.
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#20
hey ninth

you post make me remember this quote

before mountains was just mountains

then they became non-mountain

now mountain is mountains
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#21
T'was a good observation, Mornings Son.
 There does seem to be a simplistic nature to the mountain and to us even if it is a spec of dust or dirt. 
  An empty man an empty woman and an empty mountain.
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#22
MS What do you think the mountain thing means?
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#23
a mountain Lex
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#24
Perhaps it means there's no such thing as "awakening".
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#25
In the break thru
one recovers the natural mind.
A new form replaces the old form and
a simple reality is revealed.
Mountains are mountains again.
What happens to the mountain?
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