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MS, some questions to ask you...
First, you are the only member I can recall who has expressed unhappiness with this forum's direction.
My first question to you is, Was this forum creation your idea?
My next question is, since I can see Zen is a study you are passionate about and have experience in, why did you not be the moderator?
Since I am the moderator now I can only look at this sub-forum from the perspective of a learner. What is Zen? Is it anything at all? Once it becomes something then is it Zen any longer? If so, why have a forum on it if we can't make a nothing something? The forum would only reveal what its not. Maybe we can just rename it to the not-Zen forum.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
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MS, some questions to ask you...
First, you are the only member I can recall who has expressed unhappiness with this forum's direction.
Hi Wei .
My first question to you is, Was this forum creation your idea?
No it was not my idea.
My
next question is, since I can see Zen is a study you are passionate
about and have experience in, why did you not be the moderator?
I dislike discussion about zen, people shift into being in their head about phenomena they experience or worth about something they read in a book... The internal dialogue runs and the cultivation of Mind is lost. Hench the way to enlightenment is lost.
As I told Wolf - I would be a bad moderator. I would be shout KWATZ at peoples post and delete all that I found rubbish.
Since
I am the moderator now I can only look at this sub-forum from the
perspective of a learner. What is Zen? Is it anything at all? Once it
becomes something then is it Zen any longer? If so, why have a forum on
it if we can't make a nothing something? The forum would only reveal
what its not. Maybe we can just rename it to the not-Zen forum.
Yes I get the point, but for me Zen is a way of practice. Wax on Wax of. Wax on Wax of. Not much to talk about.
Of course there are question that could arise in the course of practice and I would be delighted to help to answer those.
I do read books on zen to get a better understanding and become inspired about how to practice and live zen in my daily doings and interactions.
Unfortunately a forum can hardly be used for anything but talk. In zen community I belong to we have a forum too, but there is hardly anybody that post there, not even asks the Roshi (zen master) questions...
What I find the problem about this forum is that people are not serious in to practicing zen.
There are people who are in the field playing the game and then there is those who watch and talk.
Wei please let me know if there is some question I could be of help to answer, as I don't read the post here.
HAHA )))) I saw my name on the front page, so that got me here.
Gassho.
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"Wei please let me know if there is some question I could be of help to answer, as I don't read the post here.
HAHA )))) I saw my name on the front page, so that got me here."
ok I will. I'm not actually here to run any Zen discussions though...I was mysteriously made moderator, lol, so just being proactive here is all.
"I dislike discussion about zen, people shift into being in their head about phenomena they experience or worth about something they read in a book... The internal dialogue runs and the cultivation of Mind is lost. Hench the way to enlightenment is lost."
Ok, then my hunch is Lonewolf started this forum, and in fact it has proven, as I see it, a good way to illustrate this very thing...so served it purpose? only time will tell.
In your Zen community, I wonder if your same like-mindedness serves you well though. Too much validation of "this way only"?--to reference that empty cup, its easy to see you're bothered by any way that diverges from the way endorsed in your group practice. Perhaps you think you just need to let go of the concern, but don't see that your group practice reinforces it again anyway by adherence to a "way" still. To me this is a mental state of reference you are making, the very thing you say you are against. Perhaps Zen has no way, and that's the rub.
Seems any path taken becomes, by necessity, a mental point of reference trying to reach this illusive Zen Void. Can we totally drop the reference point, the AP? Are we meant to? These are questions I ask myself. And in general to anyone interested.
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In your Zen community, I wonder if your same like-mindedness serves you well though. Too much validation of "this way only"?alas I'm a heretic... if not I would not be here at Shamanic Warrior.
Such a strange karma and personality I have... make me shake my head and laugh many times.
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Hey MS, see my edit as I expanded on it...while you replied
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You are right I'm selfimportantly attached to MY concept of TRUE Zen.
As for zen or any other practice (reference point?) it is like a walking stick when you reach your destination you led go of the walking stick. Miserable is the fellow who gets so attached to the walking stick that he believes it is a vital part of himself...
Thanks for bringing this to my attention Wei
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I appreciate this dialog MS. I am coming from a perspective of only being with Zen for a short while, Buddhism in general sporadically. Unlike you who has been in the study for decades.
Still, I think my fresh, naive perspective has one advantage, that being not too invested to ask...what would be the value of a destination with no reference point? I am asking this now whereas I was not asking it a month ago say.
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what would be the value of a destination with no reference point?True Freedom and Unity with All/Buddhanature/God/Nagual
But to talk of value, destination, reference point, freedom, unity and all/buddhanature/god/nagual is to try to fit what can't be described into description.
To reach that destination though is said to be the transcend birth and death as well as put and end to personal suffering.
yes the freshness of the beginners Mind is a great quality... soon after that most fall a sleep with the little knowledge they achieved as a pillow.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
*grumble* can't you see im sleeping Wei?? *grumble* don't disturb my dreams of being oh so realized and accomplished
Awakening is what?
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This Zen sub forum was started when initially GS posted something on zen, and we all followed and started to post a lot on the subject. So, after 4 of 5 topics with many replies, just on zen, Lone Wolf made a collection of these posts, and made a zen sub forum out of them. All this about 3 months ago.
Nobody had the idea, NLW just gathered some posts that were already there on the main forum.
Feelin better now guys?
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"To reach that destination though is said to be the transcend birth and death as well as put and end to personal suffering."
Yes, this is what Buddhism tells us. So its faith in Buddhism?
Beginners mind, lol. I do not think Zen is the only way to understand our all-ness. I may be a Zen beginner but not a beginner on the matters we ultimately speak of.
"Awakening is what?"
Many things to many people.
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"Nobody had the idea, NLW just gathered some posts that were already there on the main forum."
That was an idea
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The interesting thing about awakening is first you must come to the conclusion you are not awake. When considered fully, that's rather nonsensical. Here's a favorite quote from The Blue Cliff Record:
In clear illumination, there is no such thing as awakening. The concept of 'having awakened' turns around and deludes people. When you stretch out both feet and sleep, there's no false and no true - thus there isn't a single concern in one's heart. When hungry, one eats: when tired, one sleeps.
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This here you quoted does not take into account the unknown. We awaken to the unknown. Imagine the surprise of men and women when they realized the earth was not flat, and imagine their surprise when they understood the earth revolved around the sun instead of the other way. These were some of their awakenings.
We know all of these, so for us living now, there is...awakenings yet to come, which will change what we currently know.
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Yes..I saw the posts about zen and decided to create a zen forum which proved to be quite successful here. I do miss Lex's contributions lately but I believe MS has found a true calling even if he disagrees with the concept...to me its about communication not purists views of the abstract beliefs. The final cut is that I, myself want to learn what those who study zen have to teach me about the concept of zen. I was many years ago a student of Yoganda (Yogis) but never went past that into any Zen studies. So in the final analysis I seek knowledge and that is the end reason of mine to create a zen forum.
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communication=our individual insights meeting a collective, becoming a collective reflection, back to individual insights enhanced by the process. A way without a pre-known path, the path is unfolding now. We know what we know, and when we hear from others, we know something new. So the way is all of ours.
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I liked Lex's contributes too. Felt he brought in some unusual insights. He may be back, just is busy I think.
For me the energy toward Buddhism is not strong at the moment. My energy fluctuates so I follow that. But I am happy to moderate here, and now that I understand communication exchange is the starting point of this forum's conception, I can see my role here clearly, which is mainly to observe and support/encourage diversity of views. Which this sub-forum has done in the past also.
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Wei Shan Yang wrote:This here you quoted does not take into account the unknown. We awaken to the unknown. Imagine the surprise of men and women when they realized the earth was not flat, and imagine their surprise when they understood the earth revolved around the sun instead of the other way. These were some of their awakenings.
We know all of these, so for us living now, there is...awakenings yet to come, which will change what we currently know."We awaken to the unknown." I'm not sure that's what is meant usually by awakening. In the sense of the quote, I believe it's an oblique reference to "enlightenment", or to put it into the vernacular, he "got it". All of these are vague statements usually considered to be a superior state of being and awareness.
If all we awaken to are essentially useless pieces of information about the shape and movement of the planets, then it truly is delusional.
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I'm just saying, for example...we may awaken one day to see firewood is not firewood, water is not water. We have not exhausted the possibilities.
What I like about Buddhism is it gives us an ultimate truth, oneness or unity or whatever name. Completeness. But in the relative world, awakening is active, changing, impermanent. Endless possibilities.
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