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Zen
practice is a pursuit where the goal is to experience the Buddha nature – A
major point is to enter a state of no internal dialogue and no-dual
awareness. That means that there is no longer a self and a world –
but that All is one. To keep that going every moment after Enlightenment is the futher training.
The
practice of Zen to reach Enlightenment is fundamentaly Zazen.
(Meditation. )
All
thinking, discussing and reflecting on Zen very easy gets one into
concepts, dualistic thinking and ego attachments and therefore further away from the
experience of Zen.
As
with many other Paths – keeping steady and grounded in practice is
difficult and challenging. So easy to be let astray by words and
talking…
So
for me – I will refocus on walking the Path rather than talking the
Path.
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Good post MS
I find that Zen is a way to experience the here and now. In Zazen time stops.
In no other way can I make an hour pass like it was 10 minutes...
To observe the silent energy body
unite with the source, is quite magical...
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Once, Taizen Deshimaru was asked to give a lecture on zen.
So he arrived at the conference hall full of people.
He adressed the audience and said; this is zen,
so he sat in the lotus position and started zazen.
He stayed there on and on.
Gradually the croud got smaller and smaller,
until there was no one left...
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"Once, Taizen Deshimaru was asked to give a lecture on zen.
So he arrived at the conference hall full of people.
He adressed the audience and said; this is zen,
so he sat in the lotus position and started zazen.
He stayed there on and on.
Gradually the croud got smaler and smaler,
until there was no one left..."
Maybe he just had a little Bourbon too much that day and once locked in zazen he couldn't even move his jaws?...
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The Fool wrote:"Once, Taizen Deshimaru was asked to give a lecture on zen.
So he arrived at the conference hall full of people.
He adressed the audience and said; this is zen,
so he sat in the lotus position and started zazen.
He stayed there on and on.
Gradually the croud got smaler and smaler,
until there was no one left..."
Maybe he just had a little Bourbon too much that day and once locked in zazen he couldn't even move his jaws?...hehehehehe!
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The Fool wrote:
"Once, Taizen Deshimaru was asked to give a lecture on zen.
So he arrived at the conference hall full of people.
He adressed the audience and said; this is zen,
so he sat in the lotus position and started zazen.
He stayed there on and on.
Gradually the croud got smaler and smaler,
until there was no one left..."
Maybe he just had a little Bourbon too much that day and once locked in zazen he couldn't even move his jaws?...
Well, everyone knows that zen masters are all drunk,
just look at the koans they come up with.
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Did they came up with the idea that one can get enlightened (whatever that means) sitting like a statue (and for most westerners killing their knees) because they were drunk? Was Dogen a drunkard?! (but a productive one considering his Shobogenzo) How about Bodhidharma, Seng T'san, Ma Tzu, Huang Po, Lin Chi, Hui Hai? Drunkards?
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Mornings Son wrote:
Zen
practice is a pursuit where the goal is to experience the Buddha nature – A
major point is to enter a state of no internal dialogue and no-dual
awareness. That means that there is no longer a self and a world –
but that All is one. To keep that going every moment after Enlightenment is the futher training.
The
practice of Zen to reach Enlightenment is fundamentaly Zazen.
(Meditation. )
All
thinking, discussing and reflecting on Zen very easy gets one into
concepts, dualistic thinking and ego attachments and therefore further away from the
experience of Zen.
As
with many other Paths – keeping steady and grounded in practice is
difficult and challenging. So easy to be let astray by words and
talking…
So
for me – I will refocus on walking the Path rather than talking the
Path.
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Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
The Fool wrote:
Did they came up with the idea that one can get enlightened (whatever that means) sitting like a statue (and for most westerners killing their knees) because they were drunk? Was Dogen a drunkard?! (but a productive one considering his Shobogenzo) How about Bodhidharma, Seng T'san, Ma Tzu, Huang Po, Lin Chi, Hui Hai? Drunkards?Yes, all drunk...
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Oh...so that's probably why Mahakasyapa smiled at the flower...
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Morning Sons,
I agree with what you say about the path and that too much talking can fill one with more concepts than there are already and furthermore puffing up one's ego in the belief that one "got it". Nonetheless i feel it is important and necessary to share one's own experience with an elder on the path one has chosen to clarify one's experience because of the numerous mistakes in understanding one can make regarding one's experience, that can consequently puffing up one's ego as much as talking. Sharing in an open manner with one's brothers and sisters on the path is also a way to see one's mistakes and a help to work on them so that they don't become hindering obstacles.
That said, may the Buddha's blessing be with you.
Gassho
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The Fool.
Good points and approach to the forum here and on being so-cool-cos-me-go-to-da-master ego attachment.
I will read some more post and look after the experiences that people share, must admit that I judge&feel that most of posts here is based on second hand knowledge rather than experience.
Gassho
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"We must study the Buddha's teachings and learn to think logically and clearly so that we can investigate them and reach accurate conclusions. For this reason, Tibetan monastics spend years debating and discussing the scriptures. The formalized structure of debate teaches us how to examine the teachings clearly and test their validity It also draws out deeper meanings of the teachings, shows us what we do and don't understand, and elucidates diverse perspectives. Although we may not engage in formal debate, discussing topics with Dharma friends serves the same purpose. In this way we can clarify what we believe, and having done that, we begin to practice accordingly." ~Tibetan nun
The whole idea that zen is this or zen is that just complicates the matter and then a person begins to argue that others are not following zen. As if zen is something to be possessed as "this way" or "that way" to follow. Examination of what we believe and observation of what others believe will help clear this.
Is zen really a "topic"? Our beliefs are what's important to look at. They determine our actions, our perception. If we believe zen is "something" then its certainly not empty according to that belief. Then there is an attachment to the concept of what zen is and then the idea of following that particular way. Free the idea there is even a concept of zen to be accessed. Sitting in silence, or talking, it makes no difference. One is not "more zen" then the other. Both silence and discussing have functional purposes.
Zen masters, being so, actually become more humble the further they progress. They go deeper into gratitude of the power that surrounds them rather then their having their own power. They disappear. So those who seek this must understand what this implies. Being upset with one's surroundings whatever the case, points to an area to be resolved in order to become a zen master. Yet the zen master is more like a small mouse then a roaring lion. In the process of "becoming" one may perceive it the other way around. In which case, the letting go of becoming is what needs to occur.
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Ah Tiff...wouldn't you exist that i would have to create you with my thoughts.
Ever-fresh women's wisdom...
Namaste
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The Fool, Mornings Son
Namaste
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When the doing of the self, becomes a not doing, then becomes a doing again, it matters not, because the journey has been made, and another can begin.
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Zen
practice is a pursuit where the goal is to experience the Buddha nature – A
major point is to enter a state of no internal dialogue and no-dual
awareness. That means that there is no longer a self and a world –
but that All is one. To keep that going every moment after Enlightenment is the further training. Mornings Son
"but that All is one." Mornings Son would you please tell us what you understand this statement to mean? This idea of ONENESS is very popular. In what way does no-self and no world contribute to the idea of oneness? How is the idea of no-world arrived at? If there is no-self and no world what is there to be one and how is that arrived at? These are distinct questions.
I point this out because the oneness that Buddhism speaks of is very important. However in the west we tend to think of this as a union between self and this mysterious world..."I am one with everything" and "everything (ALL) is one". But what exactly does that mean, especially when mentioned in the same breath as no-self and no world?
It is common in Zen that after periods of zazen the student talks with the teacher/master, the one supposedly who has achieved what the student is in training for. Students are usually put on the spot by the teacher and asked questions like, "What is going on in your practice, your zazen?" This is not done to embarrass the student or to dominate the student, these questions are asked so as to gauge the students progress! Based on the students response the teacher spontaneously knows how to respond with skillful means. Usually there are very long periods of clearing away erroneous ideas concerning one's nature before a direct introduction can take place. Also the teacher wants to make sure the student is not just "zoning out" in attempts to stop thought.
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lex icon wrote:Zen
practice is a pursuit where the goal is to experience the Buddha nature – A
major point is to enter a state of no internal dialogue and no-dual
awareness. That means that there is no longer a self and a world –
but that All is one. To keep that going every moment after Enlightenment is the further training. Mornings Son
"but that All is one." Mornings Son would you please tell us what you understand this statement to mean? This idea of ONENESS is very popular. In what way does no-self and no world contribute to the idea of oneness? How is the idea of no-world arrived at? If there is no-self and no world what is there to be one and how is that arrived at? These are distinct questions.
I point this out because the oneness that Buddhism speaks of is very important. However in the west we tend to think of this as a union between self and this mysterious world..."I am one with everything" and "everything (ALL) is one". But what exactly does that mean, especially when mentioned in the same breath as no-self and no world?
It is common in Zen that after periods of zazen the student talks with the teacher/master, the one supposedly who has achieved what the student is in training for. Students are usually put on the spot by the teacher and asked questions like, "What is going on in your practice, your zazen?" This is not done to embarrass the student or to dominate the student, these questions are asked so as to gauge the students progress! Based on the students response the teacher spontaneously knows how to respond with skillful means. Usually there are very long periods of clearing away erroneous ideas concerning one's nature before a direct introduction can take place. Also the teacher wants to make sure the student is not just "zoning out" in attempts to stop thought.
In what way does no-self and no world contribute to the idea of oneness? How is the idea of no-world arrived at?
These words are merrily pointing to the Moon, not the Truth
no-self and no-world is Emptiness experienced as Now and Here.
There is many path to arrive at no-world experience. In Zen Zazen is the method.
emptiness is form, form is emptiness
***
Edit:
Zen is about experiencing Truth beyonds words and concepts. This makes is difficult to talk about as concepts and ideas easy leads into fixations of the Mind, when what is needed is the Mind to be free of all fixations.
Lex it is a paradox to be experienced - Oneness, no-self and no-world, its not something to understand.
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form is emptiness because without form there would be no way at all to know emptiness because emptiness is empty. But more then just saying its "empty" it is complete...oblivion!!! It can't be seen or experienced; it is void of all conceivable possibilities, really unfathomable...but since form is that, then we do experience it!
When we awaken to know form as empty...form too becomes unfathomable
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Tiff wrote:
The Fool, Mornings Son
Namaste
Gassho to you too Tiff
Gassho to Fool and Lex too
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Wei - Emptiness can be experienced. Your post is to the point of the matter of Emptiness (not emptiness) - thank you!
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Mornings Son, yes! The point of emptiness would be mute if not for the experience of. In other words, it would be just an empty concept (pardon the pun) without any practical value. I think the misconception...if any, that has occurred in discussions here is the idea its just a discussion. We have to discuss it of course in order to communicate it, but outside of this lies experiencing it which is the reason to discuss it in the first place. And I think many people know this, just in words its hard to express this knowing or have it be apparent. So there's the teachings and there's the doings. They are different but directly related and complimentary. The teachings lead to the doings and the doings lead to more sophisticated teachings.
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Zen practice is a pursuit where the goal is to experience the Buddha nature – A major point is to enter a state of no internal dialogue and no-dual awareness. That means that there is no longer a self and a world – but that All is one. To keep that going every moment after Enlightenment is the further training. Mornings Son
"but that All is one." Mornings Son would you please tell us what you understand this statement to mean? This idea of ONENESS is very popular. Lex
MS-response
In what way does no-self and no world contribute to the idea of oneness? How is the idea of no-world arrived at?
These words are merrily pointing to the Moon, not the Truth
no-self and no-world is Emptiness experienced as Now and Here.
There is many path to arrive at no-world experience. In Zen Zazen is the method.
emptiness is form, form is emptiness
***
Edit:
Zen is about experiencing Truth beyonds words and concepts. This makes is difficult to talk about as concepts and ideas easy leads into fixations of the Mind, when what is needed is the Mind to be free of all fixations.
Lex it is a paradox to be experienced - Oneness, no-self and no-world, its not something to understand.
MS I just saw your response.
When I asked for an elucidation concerning your statement “All is one” I am aware that what led to such a statement may lay beyond words and concepts. However what I am addressing is the engaging of words to express a concept “All is one”. You did not say “the table has many legs”, you specifically said “All is one”. So these words were chosen to express specifically!
Zen is about experiencing Truth beyonds words and concepts. This makes is difficult to talk about as concepts and ideas easy leads into fixations of the Mind, MS
You see I did not ask you about Zen. I asked you about your concept “All is one”. Did you think that the idea “All is one” was Zen and not just a concept?
I think by now we are all aware that words and concepts cannot fully express the inconceivable.
I would just like to explore with you your concept that all is one, which I too endorse.
Lex
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Hey Lex.
Yeah lets look at this 'All is One'
All = including everything in the universe/multiverse
is One = means here that there is no cutting it up in parts. Like a paining that has many strokes of different colors - most of the time only the motive is seen.
Possible you are familiar with this.
The point is experiencing that 'All is One' - to be the painting 'seeing'/experiencing the painting. It is told that this can happen when there is no longer any selfconscious awareness.
We are all part of this huge ever changing Lifeenergy that gives life to all these marvelous beings in the world. This is also 'All is One'.
Does this make it any more clear? If not I give it another go.
Gassho
MS
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