06-02-2011, 12:00 AM
Hi Nu Lang and Watergaze,
""So sorcery is not logical. Yet we can find some order/organization in it, its just one has to constantly adapt as there is a high level of unpredictability. So being accustomed to the unbelievable is key. Not expecting C to follow A and B helps. Man, fron his birth gets indocrinated into the linear path (C follows A and B), yet its but one path, very insignificant in the scope of what our human possibilities are. It helps us survive here (the rational thinking way), but the trick is to use it for that and learn sorcery aside from it so as to survive in other realities. Why? Because what else are you goign to do? Live out a logical exisitence and then expect when you die you will somehow survive another reality you are unfamiliar with? The only way to transcend to other realities is to give up linear/logical limitations.""
""
And thus yes it is a gift, but let us say that we welcome it, with our longing and intent and hoping and wishing and yearning all that..
I wonder what is the difference between a spiritual experience and an "astral level thing", if it is possible to explain I do not know, but I do not understand this difference, language wise at least. But I can grasp it when you link the spiritual to being different from what you had previously experienced. The question that comes to me now is (if you do not mind me asking questions) does it always change you? Could change be a helpful term here? Or does it come even after astral experiences? (i do not really know what is meant by astral, the terminology is not very clear to me). I could imagine experiences that expand our world view that are different from all we experienced up till then and where it is truly surprising even if we have heard or read something about it, then it changes us. But sometimes just kind of slightly in the real world of acting, but our mind/self is as if reborn in some way. That would go with my understanding of Spiritual, but interesting is I never called it spiritual. And astral, well i guess i do not know what is meant by that. Is it just the other plains? Where we go travel? Or are there more of those and only some are astral? I have to admit sometimes i drive myself crazy when i start thinking and asking myself stuff. So, i understand if you do not want to explain astral 1.0 to me . The thing is one can have an experience even if one does not know what it is called or how it is classified, but it is so much better to know it, or have some sort of system (even if personal)...[/quote]""
Both of your comments intertwine. Nu Lang spoke of A, B, and C. Watergaze asked about the Astral plane.
Because we find ourselves in a cause/effect world, because of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we expect as ordinary human beings to see A,B, and C. We always have even if it has to be explained by science. If we have to use a telescope or microscope to find the A that leads to B and then C we do so. We have come that far technologically to be able to see the "invisible causes" that lead to effects that are visible.
This is all still Earth Plane stuff. Matter.
Don Juan went beyond this right from the beginning when teaching Carlos. The very first thing he brought to his attention was what he called "the world agreeing with him" or "reaffirmations from the world around him. This phenomena consisted of seeming coincidences that actually had meaning. The more you pay attention to them the more they happen.
when we begin to see that those things actually happen we are seeing C, with no apparent A or B. But there is no denying that C, (the effect) we are witnessing is meaningful to us.
After a few years of practicing Don Juan's methods I "stopped the world." It is not just a nice phrase, it is an experience in which reaffirmations reach the point of being constant. In effect every phenomena experienced has two meanings. One is the normal person's viewpoint and the other is the "sorcerer's viewpoint." Two people can witness C, but only the apprentice/sorcerer will witness both B and C. His reference point has been expanded.
Let's say that the Aprentice/sorcerer has been immersed in the lower Astral plane.
Now to take it a step further. A man of knowledge or mystic sees the two worlds of B and C as illusion and realises that there is apparently some intelligent something "out there" as evidenced by Coincidences having meaning. This intelligent something makes apparently unconnected things line up in order to convey meaning to one who's eyes have opened to the point of being able to see both B and C. But he also realizes that both B and C are only part of the picture. The mystic calls this intelligent something God or Spirit. The man of knowledge calls it Spirit or Power or Nagual.
The normal man lives his life within the triangle of Malkuth, Hod and Netsach.
The sorcerer, within the area covered by Yesod, Hod, Netsach and Malkuth.
The man of knowledge or mystic tries to live in Tipareth which has access through the paths (awarenesses) to the entire tree.
Just outside of a normal man's worldview or descrition of this world (Malkuth) is the viewpoint of someone who has experienced something of the paranormal (Yesod) we could call that the astral world. Both the normal man's world view or description and the sorcerer's worldview and description are self reflective. We interpret them from past experience.
When you touch on the Sphere of Tipareth there is a direct path that leads to Chokmah across the Abyss of Daath. Here there is no need of interpretation. You just know something you did not know before. This is what I call a Spiritual experience.
An example would be that normal men look at another person and sees a physical body and can ascertain a lot about that other person by body language and age and the expression on their face.
A person operating from the second point of view might see them as an egg of energy or as a body surrounded by layers of light or auras. which they may or may not be able to interpret.
A person operating from the next level will be able to look at the other person and know what they are thinking, know whether or not they are lying and know when they are lying to themselves or just to you. So that both their general character and their momentary thoughts are layed bare at a level that even the person being observed
doesn't know about themselves. Also the person does not look at all like a human being.
Astral is a general term and can apply to probalby several levels. It is not so simple as I have presented it, but I have not experienced every possible level of anything. I have only touched on some things.
I see reality as more of a rainbow type of thing. One thing bleeds into another and another gradually. There are many shades of purple between red and blue.
I am not so interested in the bodies or vehicles as I am the awarenesses.
""So sorcery is not logical. Yet we can find some order/organization in it, its just one has to constantly adapt as there is a high level of unpredictability. So being accustomed to the unbelievable is key. Not expecting C to follow A and B helps. Man, fron his birth gets indocrinated into the linear path (C follows A and B), yet its but one path, very insignificant in the scope of what our human possibilities are. It helps us survive here (the rational thinking way), but the trick is to use it for that and learn sorcery aside from it so as to survive in other realities. Why? Because what else are you goign to do? Live out a logical exisitence and then expect when you die you will somehow survive another reality you are unfamiliar with? The only way to transcend to other realities is to give up linear/logical limitations.""
""
And thus yes it is a gift, but let us say that we welcome it, with our longing and intent and hoping and wishing and yearning all that..
I wonder what is the difference between a spiritual experience and an "astral level thing", if it is possible to explain I do not know, but I do not understand this difference, language wise at least. But I can grasp it when you link the spiritual to being different from what you had previously experienced. The question that comes to me now is (if you do not mind me asking questions) does it always change you? Could change be a helpful term here? Or does it come even after astral experiences? (i do not really know what is meant by astral, the terminology is not very clear to me). I could imagine experiences that expand our world view that are different from all we experienced up till then and where it is truly surprising even if we have heard or read something about it, then it changes us. But sometimes just kind of slightly in the real world of acting, but our mind/self is as if reborn in some way. That would go with my understanding of Spiritual, but interesting is I never called it spiritual. And astral, well i guess i do not know what is meant by that. Is it just the other plains? Where we go travel? Or are there more of those and only some are astral? I have to admit sometimes i drive myself crazy when i start thinking and asking myself stuff. So, i understand if you do not want to explain astral 1.0 to me . The thing is one can have an experience even if one does not know what it is called or how it is classified, but it is so much better to know it, or have some sort of system (even if personal)...[/quote]""
Both of your comments intertwine. Nu Lang spoke of A, B, and C. Watergaze asked about the Astral plane.
Because we find ourselves in a cause/effect world, because of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we expect as ordinary human beings to see A,B, and C. We always have even if it has to be explained by science. If we have to use a telescope or microscope to find the A that leads to B and then C we do so. We have come that far technologically to be able to see the "invisible causes" that lead to effects that are visible.
This is all still Earth Plane stuff. Matter.
Don Juan went beyond this right from the beginning when teaching Carlos. The very first thing he brought to his attention was what he called "the world agreeing with him" or "reaffirmations from the world around him. This phenomena consisted of seeming coincidences that actually had meaning. The more you pay attention to them the more they happen.
when we begin to see that those things actually happen we are seeing C, with no apparent A or B. But there is no denying that C, (the effect) we are witnessing is meaningful to us.
After a few years of practicing Don Juan's methods I "stopped the world." It is not just a nice phrase, it is an experience in which reaffirmations reach the point of being constant. In effect every phenomena experienced has two meanings. One is the normal person's viewpoint and the other is the "sorcerer's viewpoint." Two people can witness C, but only the apprentice/sorcerer will witness both B and C. His reference point has been expanded.
Let's say that the Aprentice/sorcerer has been immersed in the lower Astral plane.
Now to take it a step further. A man of knowledge or mystic sees the two worlds of B and C as illusion and realises that there is apparently some intelligent something "out there" as evidenced by Coincidences having meaning. This intelligent something makes apparently unconnected things line up in order to convey meaning to one who's eyes have opened to the point of being able to see both B and C. But he also realizes that both B and C are only part of the picture. The mystic calls this intelligent something God or Spirit. The man of knowledge calls it Spirit or Power or Nagual.
The normal man lives his life within the triangle of Malkuth, Hod and Netsach.
The sorcerer, within the area covered by Yesod, Hod, Netsach and Malkuth.
The man of knowledge or mystic tries to live in Tipareth which has access through the paths (awarenesses) to the entire tree.
Just outside of a normal man's worldview or descrition of this world (Malkuth) is the viewpoint of someone who has experienced something of the paranormal (Yesod) we could call that the astral world. Both the normal man's world view or description and the sorcerer's worldview and description are self reflective. We interpret them from past experience.
When you touch on the Sphere of Tipareth there is a direct path that leads to Chokmah across the Abyss of Daath. Here there is no need of interpretation. You just know something you did not know before. This is what I call a Spiritual experience.
An example would be that normal men look at another person and sees a physical body and can ascertain a lot about that other person by body language and age and the expression on their face.
A person operating from the second point of view might see them as an egg of energy or as a body surrounded by layers of light or auras. which they may or may not be able to interpret.
A person operating from the next level will be able to look at the other person and know what they are thinking, know whether or not they are lying and know when they are lying to themselves or just to you. So that both their general character and their momentary thoughts are layed bare at a level that even the person being observed
doesn't know about themselves. Also the person does not look at all like a human being.
Astral is a general term and can apply to probalby several levels. It is not so simple as I have presented it, but I have not experienced every possible level of anything. I have only touched on some things.
I see reality as more of a rainbow type of thing. One thing bleeds into another and another gradually. There are many shades of purple between red and blue.
I am not so interested in the bodies or vehicles as I am the awarenesses.