06-07-2011, 12:00 AM
Nu Lang wrote:Such as, if one's attention is linked with a collective ap position, you could say that person tends to follow the mass perception, and it would not be untrue.
Actually the thinking of it as an AP is quite helpful. I did not label it like that for myself, though it logically comes from what I think and know (and I knew it before you said it, but did not work with it like that in language). In this sense we all are, or can be the "common man." Makes it quite scary and emphasizes the importance of being able to hold a more magical AP position. This is also why it is helpful to interact with fellow sorcerers..
It is our preconceptions that are of the realm of the "common man." Suspending judgment is very important.
But, sadly, I see it on myself that it also might be a kind of laziness. Because sometimes I just do not bother to judge (and I am not sure it is good then), maybe some things are best judged. I would like to hear some thoughts on this, if you or anyone else has some regarding this topic.
Nu Land wrote:But I want to go back to the term "collective ap position" for a minute...what would that be? Well, one example of this is the belief that science is the final word on how our reality is constructed at a core level. Many people think this way, this is a collective ap position in our current times. 600 years ago, it was religion, not science that was the collective position and scientifically inclined people were considered rebels and outcasts.
Surely science is part of the common AP today, but that is not all there is to it. Also, religion is not out of the picture either, it just somehow adapted to be along science, that is all (but I know what you meant, and I agree).
The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).
I am starting to think that the AP shift happening now closer to a more pure type of spirituality, the type of know yourself and evolve your consciousness kind of thing, is really something that the society is starting to realize, and this is the big shift from the state before. Before it was only a few people, the select, the weird, who went on paths of self discovery in our society. The general population was numb. Now a lot of people start to feel the need to it, although they do not know how to go about it or how to achieve it. I have not lived in the past, so I do not know if these kind of generalization are truth or just our perception of history, but I feel that a change is occurring in the direction that I speak of nevertheless. Somehow 'common' AP is becoming more close to the sorcerer’s. The sorcerer's AP is becoming more widespread. Which is truly wonderful. Though I am aware that the mainstream society still has a long way to go, the change is occurring.
Well having said all this, I am trying to find some resulting helpful result that would open up some kind of a way here.. If I look at it as working with the AP then for me this is always about fluidity and grounding. This would nicely lead into an answer to Shamanka:
”shamanka” wrote:and how is it that you can be both, at the same time..ie if you have merged with the collective..how do you become individualised again?
I think you can only merge with the collective in two ways, logically too. You either do it unconsciously, you are just pulled by the masses, or you do it consciously for some reason. Sometimes the collective AP might not be desirable, but if a sorcerer needs to do it, then how does he get out, provided he is impeccable and merges with all his being with that AP?
Once we have merged and are completely in the collective, how do we individualize again? I think this is where we have to have the pull from the other side so to speak. I think this triggers a sort of remembering, which brings us out of the state. I am not sure if I can call this pull will, it might be, would make sense, but am not so set on/sure of this yet. Because the way I use the term will is for something else. And this other type of pull I am inclined to call the pull of my self, or something to that effect .
But there are also times when a collective AP is desirable, as in a sorceric/shamanic circle. Here we need to find ourselves in that AP. So there are two directions. One is to remember who we are and come back to ourselves from before. The other is to bring ourselves, the parts that can make the shift (which cleanses us of heavier stuff), to the new position, which also entails a certain form remembering.
Actually the thinking of it as an AP is quite helpful. I did not label it like that for myself, though it logically comes from what I think and know (and I knew it before you said it, but did not work with it like that in language). In this sense we all are, or can be the "common man." Makes it quite scary and emphasizes the importance of being able to hold a more magical AP position. This is also why it is helpful to interact with fellow sorcerers..
It is our preconceptions that are of the realm of the "common man." Suspending judgment is very important.
But, sadly, I see it on myself that it also might be a kind of laziness. Because sometimes I just do not bother to judge (and I am not sure it is good then), maybe some things are best judged. I would like to hear some thoughts on this, if you or anyone else has some regarding this topic.
Nu Land wrote:But I want to go back to the term "collective ap position" for a minute...what would that be? Well, one example of this is the belief that science is the final word on how our reality is constructed at a core level. Many people think this way, this is a collective ap position in our current times. 600 years ago, it was religion, not science that was the collective position and scientifically inclined people were considered rebels and outcasts.
Surely science is part of the common AP today, but that is not all there is to it. Also, religion is not out of the picture either, it just somehow adapted to be along science, that is all (but I know what you meant, and I agree).
The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).
I am starting to think that the AP shift happening now closer to a more pure type of spirituality, the type of know yourself and evolve your consciousness kind of thing, is really something that the society is starting to realize, and this is the big shift from the state before. Before it was only a few people, the select, the weird, who went on paths of self discovery in our society. The general population was numb. Now a lot of people start to feel the need to it, although they do not know how to go about it or how to achieve it. I have not lived in the past, so I do not know if these kind of generalization are truth or just our perception of history, but I feel that a change is occurring in the direction that I speak of nevertheless. Somehow 'common' AP is becoming more close to the sorcerer’s. The sorcerer's AP is becoming more widespread. Which is truly wonderful. Though I am aware that the mainstream society still has a long way to go, the change is occurring.
Well having said all this, I am trying to find some resulting helpful result that would open up some kind of a way here.. If I look at it as working with the AP then for me this is always about fluidity and grounding. This would nicely lead into an answer to Shamanka:
”shamanka” wrote:and how is it that you can be both, at the same time..ie if you have merged with the collective..how do you become individualised again?
I think you can only merge with the collective in two ways, logically too. You either do it unconsciously, you are just pulled by the masses, or you do it consciously for some reason. Sometimes the collective AP might not be desirable, but if a sorcerer needs to do it, then how does he get out, provided he is impeccable and merges with all his being with that AP?
Once we have merged and are completely in the collective, how do we individualize again? I think this is where we have to have the pull from the other side so to speak. I think this triggers a sort of remembering, which brings us out of the state. I am not sure if I can call this pull will, it might be, would make sense, but am not so set on/sure of this yet. Because the way I use the term will is for something else. And this other type of pull I am inclined to call the pull of my self, or something to that effect .
But there are also times when a collective AP is desirable, as in a sorceric/shamanic circle. Here we need to find ourselves in that AP. So there are two directions. One is to remember who we are and come back to ourselves from before. The other is to bring ourselves, the parts that can make the shift (which cleanses us of heavier stuff), to the new position, which also entails a certain form remembering.