06-07-2011, 12:01 AM
Hi all,
watergaze wrote,
""The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).""
Shamanka wrote,
""speak from your knowing NU Lang..no reason to seperate..that is not clarity..it is not the truth. There is no 'shamanka' that is correct.....there are no individual parts once aligned and integrated and then dropped.
there is no inside/outside..you know all this...why do you find it useful? my suggestion is not to play a self defined role.....give it up and just be, the 'spirits will' in action...
forget the 'shamanka' and forget the 'Nu lang' and then there are no hurdles...just empty vessels of no self..walking the path of freedom..which is the power of the nagual.""
Don Juan covered this in the idea of a "tonal" and a "tonal of the times." The cultural and scientific and collective unconscious of the society we live in has a lot to do with our individual tonals. Some societies for instance believe in inorganic beings and spirit possessions and communicating with relatives who have died. Some do not. But all societies agree on the world of matter we are surrounded by. If we hit ourselves in the head with a stick or a hammer or a laptop computer it is still going to hurt.
It is only by dealing with our personal "tonal" will we we get to the point of being able to walk through walls or on water.
Both ideas are limitations or prisons of a sort but the collective is easier to get out of than the personal tonal.
watergaze wrote,
""The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).""
Shamanka wrote,
""speak from your knowing NU Lang..no reason to seperate..that is not clarity..it is not the truth. There is no 'shamanka' that is correct.....there are no individual parts once aligned and integrated and then dropped.
there is no inside/outside..you know all this...why do you find it useful? my suggestion is not to play a self defined role.....give it up and just be, the 'spirits will' in action...
forget the 'shamanka' and forget the 'Nu lang' and then there are no hurdles...just empty vessels of no self..walking the path of freedom..which is the power of the nagual.""
Don Juan covered this in the idea of a "tonal" and a "tonal of the times." The cultural and scientific and collective unconscious of the society we live in has a lot to do with our individual tonals. Some societies for instance believe in inorganic beings and spirit possessions and communicating with relatives who have died. Some do not. But all societies agree on the world of matter we are surrounded by. If we hit ourselves in the head with a stick or a hammer or a laptop computer it is still going to hurt.
It is only by dealing with our personal "tonal" will we we get to the point of being able to walk through walls or on water.
Both ideas are limitations or prisons of a sort but the collective is easier to get out of than the personal tonal.