01-31-2011, 12:00 AM
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:
" I would be curious to hear more about your thoughts on "escaping death". How do you yourself define this? Do you see it as a function of the double or dreaming body - shifting awareness from the human body into the energy body? If so, is that what you would see as darting past the eagle to be free - that moment of transference of awareness from organic to inorganic Self?" Alien
Escaping death is the real reason I was fascinated with the Teachings of Don Juan. We as humans can will our own death. I can stop my heart with my mind. I can restart my heart. What does this tell me? I can intend death. I believe also I can shift when the death event begins and shed my body. For I learned when the heart beat stops awareness still continues. The body no longer will contain the spirit and the spirit is freed. What happens next is the big question. The description of "darting past the eagle" which is pretty much inaccurate meaning that we are this fast moving being and avoiding the talons reaching for us. This description is from the old seers. They wanted power, power over their fellow men, black magicians in dreaming and in real life they were. The eagle/spirit played their game but in the end wanted them to lose for the main ingredient of nature/universe is advancing, mutating, adapting and overcoming. Since the first living being we have been a experiment in survival. The spirit favors those who have heart, who see with tears and know their love is absorbing the manifestations of its intent.
Who gives humans dreaming bodies at birth? I can see this old fellow with a bag full of dreaming doubles handing them out to each new person being born on their way to the womb.. All beings dream. They have these bubbles of awareness that go out into the world in dreaming. One has to advance in dreaming to create the dreaming double. The dreaming double often resembles their body but it is not always the case. The double of a nagual being can actually advance to having its own personality/awareness which is independent of the human. The dreaming double is used to escape death but that ability is not just "given" to it. It must advance through stalking the eagle or with the aid of the inorganics.
The old Seers used the double to cheat death and they also used major shifts by shapeshifting to cheat death with their human bodies. When a Nagual party leaves the world they take their bodies but their bodies are shed once they shift and they give it to the eagle and go on..thus the "darting" for after their bodies are shed they DO move much faster.
The symbolic death Eilias mentions is another way of describing the birth of the double in dreaming.
I had to laugh at the image of some guy with a sackful of dreaming bodies, handing them out. Somehow made me think of Santa and his bag of toys for good girls and boys I personally don't *see* that there is anything "out there" other than Intent and Will. No deities. No demons. Just the warrior and the foreign installation - and the opportunity to create our dreaming body (double) seeming to be the only real "way out" that enables us to keep our awareness.
Was reading something on another forum recently, where a couple of guys were arguing about karma and reincarnation. Both seemed to be stuck on the idea that there is "something out there" handing out karma and regulating reincarnation. Personally I can't get to that, but to each his own. That's why the Toltec path seems to be a good starting place for those who are ready to let go of their belief systems - especially religious belief systems which, ultimately, only rob man of his power by encouraging him to place his "faith" in some extant force or intelligence. The only thing I've ever heard from that line of thinking that makes any sense came from a Buddhist monk, who said, "if I create a deity outside myself, does that make the deity any less real than if it was created by someone else, or self-created?" I thought about that for a long time, but came to the conclusion that if we create a deity outside the self, then the deity is still the Self at the end of the day.
With regard to the double taking on a life of its own, I can attest to this firsthand. Of course, I would say to anyone who might disagree, it's just my own experience and as such is only information to anyone other than myself. To me, and obviously to you, it is Knowledge. The main reason I think this "matters" (if it does) is because I see a lot of people taking the Castaneda books as gospel, concluding that the double can only be this way or that way based on what Carlos reported, when the reality of it is that the double (and, indeed, ALL aspects of sorcery) are as unique as the practitioner. If someone is limited by what Castaneda said, it's because they have chosen to limit themselves by believing as opposed to experiencing the phenomenon directly.
You said: The spirit favors those who have heart, who see with tears and know their love is absorbing the manifestations of its intent.
Yes, absolutely. Someone asked me last week to define "spirit". Kinda like being asked to define love or time without using the word love or time in the definition. All I could say was that I personally see spirit as the ethereal manifestation of our organic and inorganic intent. It is the force, to borrow from Yoda.
" I would be curious to hear more about your thoughts on "escaping death". How do you yourself define this? Do you see it as a function of the double or dreaming body - shifting awareness from the human body into the energy body? If so, is that what you would see as darting past the eagle to be free - that moment of transference of awareness from organic to inorganic Self?" Alien
Escaping death is the real reason I was fascinated with the Teachings of Don Juan. We as humans can will our own death. I can stop my heart with my mind. I can restart my heart. What does this tell me? I can intend death. I believe also I can shift when the death event begins and shed my body. For I learned when the heart beat stops awareness still continues. The body no longer will contain the spirit and the spirit is freed. What happens next is the big question. The description of "darting past the eagle" which is pretty much inaccurate meaning that we are this fast moving being and avoiding the talons reaching for us. This description is from the old seers. They wanted power, power over their fellow men, black magicians in dreaming and in real life they were. The eagle/spirit played their game but in the end wanted them to lose for the main ingredient of nature/universe is advancing, mutating, adapting and overcoming. Since the first living being we have been a experiment in survival. The spirit favors those who have heart, who see with tears and know their love is absorbing the manifestations of its intent.
Who gives humans dreaming bodies at birth? I can see this old fellow with a bag full of dreaming doubles handing them out to each new person being born on their way to the womb.. All beings dream. They have these bubbles of awareness that go out into the world in dreaming. One has to advance in dreaming to create the dreaming double. The dreaming double often resembles their body but it is not always the case. The double of a nagual being can actually advance to having its own personality/awareness which is independent of the human. The dreaming double is used to escape death but that ability is not just "given" to it. It must advance through stalking the eagle or with the aid of the inorganics.
The old Seers used the double to cheat death and they also used major shifts by shapeshifting to cheat death with their human bodies. When a Nagual party leaves the world they take their bodies but their bodies are shed once they shift and they give it to the eagle and go on..thus the "darting" for after their bodies are shed they DO move much faster.
The symbolic death Eilias mentions is another way of describing the birth of the double in dreaming.
I had to laugh at the image of some guy with a sackful of dreaming bodies, handing them out. Somehow made me think of Santa and his bag of toys for good girls and boys I personally don't *see* that there is anything "out there" other than Intent and Will. No deities. No demons. Just the warrior and the foreign installation - and the opportunity to create our dreaming body (double) seeming to be the only real "way out" that enables us to keep our awareness.
Was reading something on another forum recently, where a couple of guys were arguing about karma and reincarnation. Both seemed to be stuck on the idea that there is "something out there" handing out karma and regulating reincarnation. Personally I can't get to that, but to each his own. That's why the Toltec path seems to be a good starting place for those who are ready to let go of their belief systems - especially religious belief systems which, ultimately, only rob man of his power by encouraging him to place his "faith" in some extant force or intelligence. The only thing I've ever heard from that line of thinking that makes any sense came from a Buddhist monk, who said, "if I create a deity outside myself, does that make the deity any less real than if it was created by someone else, or self-created?" I thought about that for a long time, but came to the conclusion that if we create a deity outside the self, then the deity is still the Self at the end of the day.
With regard to the double taking on a life of its own, I can attest to this firsthand. Of course, I would say to anyone who might disagree, it's just my own experience and as such is only information to anyone other than myself. To me, and obviously to you, it is Knowledge. The main reason I think this "matters" (if it does) is because I see a lot of people taking the Castaneda books as gospel, concluding that the double can only be this way or that way based on what Carlos reported, when the reality of it is that the double (and, indeed, ALL aspects of sorcery) are as unique as the practitioner. If someone is limited by what Castaneda said, it's because they have chosen to limit themselves by believing as opposed to experiencing the phenomenon directly.
You said: The spirit favors those who have heart, who see with tears and know their love is absorbing the manifestations of its intent.
Yes, absolutely. Someone asked me last week to define "spirit". Kinda like being asked to define love or time without using the word love or time in the definition. All I could say was that I personally see spirit as the ethereal manifestation of our organic and inorganic intent. It is the force, to borrow from Yoda.