01-27-2011, 12:00 AM
Hi Lex,
""Then we get “spiritual” about it and then insist that the opposite of form is formless and it is the formless that is emptiness, not form. But really all we have to do is to look at this world of form more closely and be more attentive.""
And again, I would say that silence is the key here. Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog was the most important thing he taught Carlos. Jesus said "if these should hold their peace the very rocks would cry out." Stopping the internal dialog is not a matter of just curtailing words. It is a suspension of judgement. I think this certain type of judgement (I think it may be the craving your speaking of) is what makes us see and understand the world in the way that we do.
As far as the word spiritual goes we all put our own interpretation on that. Also faith and many other terms. Some take those terms as spooky. I look at the bible as a very technical book.
""It is precisely this kind of talk that leads “spiritual” people to think they are superior to the “unenlightened”. To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.""
My point is that what the term "mystery" means is something that most people have not experienced. Another term that has been twisted to mean something it was not intended to mean. That is the subject matter that both Jesus and Don Juan cover. That is the reason we study what we do. Nothing superior about it. It is preference or "predilection", I think Don Juan called it.
""If we can get a handle on this we will be in a better position to corroborate what Don Juan is talking about. Understanding the craving will help us see it as it happens. If we can simply refrain from exaggeration and catch ourselves as we go to talk about something we actually do not know (and then call it faith for example). If we can resist this spiritual embellishment and just stick to this world of objects we would have a better chance of cutting through the levels of interpretation and see directly, with primordial starkness.""
Faith is nothing more than believing. If I tell you it is 11:39 PM in Illinois as I am writing this, there is nothing spooky about it and you have no reason to doubt what I am saying. If it is in the bible, for some reason it gets misinterpreted.
Spiritual does not necesarily mean formless, it depends on the context. Dreams and visions can be spiritual experiences but have form. Angels which are spirits can manifest in matter as flesh and blood men.
When I use the terms together, "spiritual experience" it is to denote having had direct experience with something beyond the five senses.
Ro 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Ro 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Now if I believe the bible verse above (in red) I would have to have the same faith in what you said above (in red). It's all very technical. Not spooky, not embelished.
"" To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.""
I am not trying to confuse things. Just showing parallels to different systems of knowledge. I have always done that on this forum, though I have not been active here for some time. I am not trying to show you up or shout you down. Just adding my two cents.
If I offended you It was not my intent. If I interupted the flow of what was going to be more of an essay than a discussion, please let me know and I will not post again on this particular thread. It's not a problem either way.
""Then we get “spiritual” about it and then insist that the opposite of form is formless and it is the formless that is emptiness, not form. But really all we have to do is to look at this world of form more closely and be more attentive.""
And again, I would say that silence is the key here. Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog was the most important thing he taught Carlos. Jesus said "if these should hold their peace the very rocks would cry out." Stopping the internal dialog is not a matter of just curtailing words. It is a suspension of judgement. I think this certain type of judgement (I think it may be the craving your speaking of) is what makes us see and understand the world in the way that we do.
As far as the word spiritual goes we all put our own interpretation on that. Also faith and many other terms. Some take those terms as spooky. I look at the bible as a very technical book.
""It is precisely this kind of talk that leads “spiritual” people to think they are superior to the “unenlightened”. To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.""
My point is that what the term "mystery" means is something that most people have not experienced. Another term that has been twisted to mean something it was not intended to mean. That is the subject matter that both Jesus and Don Juan cover. That is the reason we study what we do. Nothing superior about it. It is preference or "predilection", I think Don Juan called it.
""If we can get a handle on this we will be in a better position to corroborate what Don Juan is talking about. Understanding the craving will help us see it as it happens. If we can simply refrain from exaggeration and catch ourselves as we go to talk about something we actually do not know (and then call it faith for example). If we can resist this spiritual embellishment and just stick to this world of objects we would have a better chance of cutting through the levels of interpretation and see directly, with primordial starkness.""
Faith is nothing more than believing. If I tell you it is 11:39 PM in Illinois as I am writing this, there is nothing spooky about it and you have no reason to doubt what I am saying. If it is in the bible, for some reason it gets misinterpreted.
Spiritual does not necesarily mean formless, it depends on the context. Dreams and visions can be spiritual experiences but have form. Angels which are spirits can manifest in matter as flesh and blood men.
When I use the terms together, "spiritual experience" it is to denote having had direct experience with something beyond the five senses.
Ro 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Ro 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Now if I believe the bible verse above (in red) I would have to have the same faith in what you said above (in red). It's all very technical. Not spooky, not embelished.
"" To heap up mystical, metaphysical knowledge upon what already appears obscured and interpret experience in light of such knowledge has only minor benefit and lots of pitfalls.""
I am not trying to confuse things. Just showing parallels to different systems of knowledge. I have always done that on this forum, though I have not been active here for some time. I am not trying to show you up or shout you down. Just adding my two cents.
If I offended you It was not my intent. If I interupted the flow of what was going to be more of an essay than a discussion, please let me know and I will not post again on this particular thread. It's not a problem either way.