01-30-2011, 12:00 AM
lex icon wrote:
The equivocation between cosmology and psychology is particular clear in a passage of the Kevaddha-sutta.(26) The Buddha tells of a certain bhikkhu (disciple) who wished to discover where the four great elements(mahabhuta) ceased without remainder (aparisesa nirujjhanti). It seems that we must understand this as wishing to know the full extent of the conditioned world-both physical and mental. The bhikkhu appears to have been a master of meditation, for we are told that he attained a state of concentration in which the path leading to the gods appeared to his concentrated mind ("tatharupam samadhim samapajji yatha samahite citte deva-yaniyo maggo paturahosi"). He then proceeds to approach the gods of ever higher levels to pose his question until eventually he finds himself in the presence of Mahabrahma himself, who confesses that he cannot answer the question and suggests that he return to the Buddha to put this question to him. The Buddha answers that the four elements cease, not "out there" in some remote outpost of the universe, but in "consciousness" (vinnana).(27) This account states very clearly how specific psychological states--in this instance, the mind concentrated in the various levels of meditation--give access to particular cosmological realms. Thus the bhikkhu is explicitly described as at once making a journey through various levels of the cosmos and making an inner, spiritual journey--a journey of the mind.
Commenting on the phrase, "when the world contracts beings are for the most part born in the realm of Radiance," as it
occurs in the Brahmajala Sutta, Buddhaghosa states that " for the most part" [yebhuyyena] is said because there are other beings who are born either in higher Brahma realms or in the formless realms."
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/rupert.htm
This reminds me also of a story told by LM of ParallelPerception in his book. He says that one of his benefactors helped him recover the memory of an experience. He remembered being shown a gateway that he believed was his ultimate destiny after this life. He was flanked by two beings as he was ushered into the wonders of that realm which as the beings informed him, were not beyond his comprehension. He comments that he was very excited by this prospect and also knowing something more (wonders) than he did not prior to this event. All pointing to beyond.
LM’s reaction to this seems to be that he was quite taken with this event and the promise it held, not much different than Jacob and his ladder or Abraham or any of the Biblical prophets. It is as if that from such experience one can see the way into this realm. Some may even go as far as to think that because of the magnitude of such an event that a portal to that realm has been opened and that even they themselves are that portal through which they can usher others. Certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Looking at LM’s event through a Buddhist perspective it would seem that he is to be reincarnated as a god in a Brahma or Deva realm he seems to have already achieved formless realms.
But what I want to point out here is the difference between LM and the Bhikkhu. The Bhikkhu, who it was assumed was a meditation master and had unbridled access to the realm which LM seems to have glimpsed, was not so taken with the wonders of that realm. He was more concerned with the parameters of existence itself both of this world and any higher realm. After discussion with an exalted member of that wondrous realm he remained unsatisfied, his questions unanswered. However the exalted being with whom he spoke seemed sympathetic to his inquiry and steered him back to this realm to inquire of the Buddha, who it was believed would know, which turned out to be the case.
I offer this for consideration here because there has been much mentioned of Jacob’s ladder etc. and I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable. For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.Hi Lex,
Good post your examples are to the point at hand. I highlighted what I though was most important to the discussion.
It is inner experience we are talking of. Perceptions.
If we are looking to map this physical world we may use the Rock analogy. Go three steps left of the rock at the corner of Mainstreet
and vine and dig three feet down to where the treasure is etc., etc.
The importance of a map is to lead you to a goal the goal. It is impossible to find the goal unless you know where you are on the map.
When I go into the Mall and find the map at the entrance, the first thing I look for is the YOU ARE HERE on the map.
Those are the stories in the bible. When you have an experience that was had by another in the bible you have found the YOU ARE HERE SIGN.
There are realms beyond what you have just experienced, and unlike the rock at Mainstreet and Vine, you may never see the same YOU ARE HERE sign again. The sign is not a place in consciousness. It is the token of a promise. A signature.
It is not a stationary sign.
Noah was given a rainbow (a bow in the heavens that also touched the earth) as a token of a covenant. A promise.
Jacob was given another promise or covenant promised to his seed after him. His token was a ladder that reached from earth to heaven.
Joseph was given a coat of many colors.
Jesus promised Nathanael he would see the same thing because he believed. (He also said he would see "greater things than these.")
So is it "Real" in the same sense as the rock? No, it is Real in another sense that is even greater.
It is a guarantee. An assurance. A signature to the seed of Jacob. (Believers both Jews and Gentiles) That the awareness (which is more important than the vision) that "God is in this place but I knew it not..", is always with the recipient of the token. And that that person will experience greater things than these and that they Are actually on the "Path."
It is in Western Mystic Tradition terms, an initiation.
In Eastern terminology, I suppose, not being that familiar with it, your descripion is probably correct. An experience of the Realm of Radiance that promises further experiences to come of the Formless realms. It is good not to get too hung up on it. (as my teacher warned) But to understand what it is is important. That does not mean you re-experience the Radiance thing each time on the way to the Formless. It is not that kind of map.
""I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable.""
I noticed whenever Jesus would tell what the Kingdom he did not describe it. It used to frustrate the hell out of me.
But then I saw what he was doing. He was telling us how we would recognise what was happening to us "after the fact."
Some things cannot be described "in substance", but a lot of spiritual experiences can be recognised when the process or how it came about is related by another person who went through the same thing,.. but only AFTER we also go through it can we recognise it.
Mr 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
I would add, that in my experience, the world is a very different place for a period of time, sometimes weeks, days, after a spiritual experience. This is a further evidence or token of the veracity of the experience.
""For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.""
Instead of being shoulder to shoulder with the Buddha who was, in my estimation, unable to explain what he saw. And what he saw might not be what the student would see when he "got there", anyway.
Anyhow, I think you are right in that only the Know and Unknown can be mapped, (whatever map you are following). I don't think the Unknowable can.
The equivocation between cosmology and psychology is particular clear in a passage of the Kevaddha-sutta.(26) The Buddha tells of a certain bhikkhu (disciple) who wished to discover where the four great elements(mahabhuta) ceased without remainder (aparisesa nirujjhanti). It seems that we must understand this as wishing to know the full extent of the conditioned world-both physical and mental. The bhikkhu appears to have been a master of meditation, for we are told that he attained a state of concentration in which the path leading to the gods appeared to his concentrated mind ("tatharupam samadhim samapajji yatha samahite citte deva-yaniyo maggo paturahosi"). He then proceeds to approach the gods of ever higher levels to pose his question until eventually he finds himself in the presence of Mahabrahma himself, who confesses that he cannot answer the question and suggests that he return to the Buddha to put this question to him. The Buddha answers that the four elements cease, not "out there" in some remote outpost of the universe, but in "consciousness" (vinnana).(27) This account states very clearly how specific psychological states--in this instance, the mind concentrated in the various levels of meditation--give access to particular cosmological realms. Thus the bhikkhu is explicitly described as at once making a journey through various levels of the cosmos and making an inner, spiritual journey--a journey of the mind.
Commenting on the phrase, "when the world contracts beings are for the most part born in the realm of Radiance," as it
occurs in the Brahmajala Sutta, Buddhaghosa states that " for the most part" [yebhuyyena] is said because there are other beings who are born either in higher Brahma realms or in the formless realms."
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/rupert.htm
This reminds me also of a story told by LM of ParallelPerception in his book. He says that one of his benefactors helped him recover the memory of an experience. He remembered being shown a gateway that he believed was his ultimate destiny after this life. He was flanked by two beings as he was ushered into the wonders of that realm which as the beings informed him, were not beyond his comprehension. He comments that he was very excited by this prospect and also knowing something more (wonders) than he did not prior to this event. All pointing to beyond.
LM’s reaction to this seems to be that he was quite taken with this event and the promise it held, not much different than Jacob and his ladder or Abraham or any of the Biblical prophets. It is as if that from such experience one can see the way into this realm. Some may even go as far as to think that because of the magnitude of such an event that a portal to that realm has been opened and that even they themselves are that portal through which they can usher others. Certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Looking at LM’s event through a Buddhist perspective it would seem that he is to be reincarnated as a god in a Brahma or Deva realm he seems to have already achieved formless realms.
But what I want to point out here is the difference between LM and the Bhikkhu. The Bhikkhu, who it was assumed was a meditation master and had unbridled access to the realm which LM seems to have glimpsed, was not so taken with the wonders of that realm. He was more concerned with the parameters of existence itself both of this world and any higher realm. After discussion with an exalted member of that wondrous realm he remained unsatisfied, his questions unanswered. However the exalted being with whom he spoke seemed sympathetic to his inquiry and steered him back to this realm to inquire of the Buddha, who it was believed would know, which turned out to be the case.
I offer this for consideration here because there has been much mentioned of Jacob’s ladder etc. and I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable. For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.Hi Lex,
Good post your examples are to the point at hand. I highlighted what I though was most important to the discussion.
It is inner experience we are talking of. Perceptions.
If we are looking to map this physical world we may use the Rock analogy. Go three steps left of the rock at the corner of Mainstreet
and vine and dig three feet down to where the treasure is etc., etc.
The importance of a map is to lead you to a goal the goal. It is impossible to find the goal unless you know where you are on the map.
When I go into the Mall and find the map at the entrance, the first thing I look for is the YOU ARE HERE on the map.
Those are the stories in the bible. When you have an experience that was had by another in the bible you have found the YOU ARE HERE SIGN.
There are realms beyond what you have just experienced, and unlike the rock at Mainstreet and Vine, you may never see the same YOU ARE HERE sign again. The sign is not a place in consciousness. It is the token of a promise. A signature.
It is not a stationary sign.
Noah was given a rainbow (a bow in the heavens that also touched the earth) as a token of a covenant. A promise.
Jacob was given another promise or covenant promised to his seed after him. His token was a ladder that reached from earth to heaven.
Joseph was given a coat of many colors.
Jesus promised Nathanael he would see the same thing because he believed. (He also said he would see "greater things than these.")
So is it "Real" in the same sense as the rock? No, it is Real in another sense that is even greater.
It is a guarantee. An assurance. A signature to the seed of Jacob. (Believers both Jews and Gentiles) That the awareness (which is more important than the vision) that "God is in this place but I knew it not..", is always with the recipient of the token. And that that person will experience greater things than these and that they Are actually on the "Path."
It is in Western Mystic Tradition terms, an initiation.
In Eastern terminology, I suppose, not being that familiar with it, your descripion is probably correct. An experience of the Realm of Radiance that promises further experiences to come of the Formless realms. It is good not to get too hung up on it. (as my teacher warned) But to understand what it is is important. That does not mean you re-experience the Radiance thing each time on the way to the Formless. It is not that kind of map.
""I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable.""
I noticed whenever Jesus would tell what the Kingdom he did not describe it. It used to frustrate the hell out of me.
But then I saw what he was doing. He was telling us how we would recognise what was happening to us "after the fact."
Some things cannot be described "in substance", but a lot of spiritual experiences can be recognised when the process or how it came about is related by another person who went through the same thing,.. but only AFTER we also go through it can we recognise it.
Mr 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
I would add, that in my experience, the world is a very different place for a period of time, sometimes weeks, days, after a spiritual experience. This is a further evidence or token of the veracity of the experience.
""For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.""
Instead of being shoulder to shoulder with the Buddha who was, in my estimation, unable to explain what he saw. And what he saw might not be what the student would see when he "got there", anyway.
Anyhow, I think you are right in that only the Know and Unknown can be mapped, (whatever map you are following). I don't think the Unknowable can.