02-08-2011, 12:01 AM
scout1 wrote:
Bob, can You tell me please about punishment in Hell ?
Hi Scout,
Yes, it is not necessary.
It really gets to the heart of the bible as a whole. There are really two completely different covenants in the bible. Agreements, contracts between god and mankind. These two contracts or "covenants" are layed out in the old and new Testaments.
The first Covenant is all about effort. Do good get good do bad, get bad. Cause and effect. You see we live in a cause and effect world because of the "Fall". Or as you would call it a predatory world. We were originally spiritual beings. Adam (the race of mankind) were a race of spirtual beings. We were cast out of the Garden and given coats of skins which are vehicles appropriate to this earth plane.
There were/is also another race of beings called angels. Some of them fell also. Though they are invisible most of the time they also walk to and fro in this same plane with us, the earth plane. With a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point we can actually see them sometimes. There is no need to "rise to another plane", to see them. Just open up a little and they are here. They influence peoples thoughts and actions. They hate us with a passion because we were given a chance to escape this world, they were not.
God gave us a Law that we could understand. Do good, get good do bad and die. The goal of that Law was to reach perfection by our own efforts. This includes our thoughts. (Now remember that our thoughts are being influenced by fallen angels) They may be fallen, but they still have the powers that angels have. In other words, WE ARE HELPLESS.
Keeping the Law is impossible. The last book of the Old Covenant/Testament clearly states that no one was ever able to keep the Law. So, since if you break one law you are counted guilty of all the law, we were all worthy of Death, not of our bodies, but of our souls. That was the contract.
As Paul said the law was brought in to bring every man guilty before God. Total humility. Total lack of self importance, in other words we come to a knowledge of the Truth.
Then enters The New Covenant. Since one man sinned (allegorically Adam is one man), only one man had to be perfect to fulfill the contract.
We sinned and he died. Contract fulfilled.
It is a predatory universe. But the "predators" are stuck here in the lower planes. This would include the physical earth plane and the lower astral planes. There is a saying in the Qabala that the Serpent's head can only reach to the Abyss, Daath (which means Knowledge= actual biblical experiential knowlege).
We are either under Grace (which means a gift) or under the Law. There are no in betweens they are mutually exclusive.
If you are under the Old Covenant everthing is effort and performance. And everyone naturally draws to this because it is the way everthing that we've ever known works.
But Jesus came and pointed out that we had been reading the scripture and looking at the world completely wrong.
"Consider the RAVENS: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?"
This and many other things he said seem to run entirely against the Old Testament Law. That is because he is pointing toward the Spirit rather than the Letter both in scripture and in the world around us.
Anyone can see that the world is predatory. That is obvious. We have to learn to see what is not obvious, what lies behind the veils.
Then even the Old Testament begins to tell us it's secrets. That it has been pointing to Grace the entire time. It is mankind that has been misinterpreting from the beginning.
Zec 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.It is then that life becomes effortless and the predators lose there hold over us.
I found myself in a plane of darkness once. I could not feel God or light or anything good only darkness. Jesus felt the same thing on the Cross.
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN ME?"
All I had to hang on to was the thought that God would not have brought me this far to let me go out this way. Again I was not afraid of dying but of the death of my soul. As far as appearances it looked hopeless. But in reality God was there with me.
Ps 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Ps 16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Ps 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:11
Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Though some of the lines quoted above are prophecies about Jesus, it does not mean they don't apply to us. Believers (those that come to an awareness of Grace) are "fellow heirs" with Christ. We get what he gets.
Maybe that is why I ended up in that plane in the first place. To have the oppotunity to go through some of what he went through. Both good and bad. Much more good came later.
Don't worry so much about predators and hell. Begin to look at the Ravens.
The seers of the Old Testament only saw far off in the future what the seers of the New Testament would experience.
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them AFAR OFF, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
If you look for the negative you will find it. It is all around us. Look beyond the veils, beyond appearances and you will find what is hidden there,...treasures.
Too much talk of hell and predators gives them more power than they actually have. They are more powerfull than us but not more powerful than He who gave us promises. And we are fellow heirs with him. Believe it. Because if you believe that it is true.
That is all the effort required.
Bob, can You tell me please about punishment in Hell ?
Hi Scout,
Yes, it is not necessary.
It really gets to the heart of the bible as a whole. There are really two completely different covenants in the bible. Agreements, contracts between god and mankind. These two contracts or "covenants" are layed out in the old and new Testaments.
The first Covenant is all about effort. Do good get good do bad, get bad. Cause and effect. You see we live in a cause and effect world because of the "Fall". Or as you would call it a predatory world. We were originally spiritual beings. Adam (the race of mankind) were a race of spirtual beings. We were cast out of the Garden and given coats of skins which are vehicles appropriate to this earth plane.
There were/is also another race of beings called angels. Some of them fell also. Though they are invisible most of the time they also walk to and fro in this same plane with us, the earth plane. With a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point we can actually see them sometimes. There is no need to "rise to another plane", to see them. Just open up a little and they are here. They influence peoples thoughts and actions. They hate us with a passion because we were given a chance to escape this world, they were not.
God gave us a Law that we could understand. Do good, get good do bad and die. The goal of that Law was to reach perfection by our own efforts. This includes our thoughts. (Now remember that our thoughts are being influenced by fallen angels) They may be fallen, but they still have the powers that angels have. In other words, WE ARE HELPLESS.
Keeping the Law is impossible. The last book of the Old Covenant/Testament clearly states that no one was ever able to keep the Law. So, since if you break one law you are counted guilty of all the law, we were all worthy of Death, not of our bodies, but of our souls. That was the contract.
As Paul said the law was brought in to bring every man guilty before God. Total humility. Total lack of self importance, in other words we come to a knowledge of the Truth.
Then enters The New Covenant. Since one man sinned (allegorically Adam is one man), only one man had to be perfect to fulfill the contract.
We sinned and he died. Contract fulfilled.
It is a predatory universe. But the "predators" are stuck here in the lower planes. This would include the physical earth plane and the lower astral planes. There is a saying in the Qabala that the Serpent's head can only reach to the Abyss, Daath (which means Knowledge= actual biblical experiential knowlege).
We are either under Grace (which means a gift) or under the Law. There are no in betweens they are mutually exclusive.
If you are under the Old Covenant everthing is effort and performance. And everyone naturally draws to this because it is the way everthing that we've ever known works.
But Jesus came and pointed out that we had been reading the scripture and looking at the world completely wrong.
"Consider the RAVENS: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?"
This and many other things he said seem to run entirely against the Old Testament Law. That is because he is pointing toward the Spirit rather than the Letter both in scripture and in the world around us.
Anyone can see that the world is predatory. That is obvious. We have to learn to see what is not obvious, what lies behind the veils.
Then even the Old Testament begins to tell us it's secrets. That it has been pointing to Grace the entire time. It is mankind that has been misinterpreting from the beginning.
Zec 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.It is then that life becomes effortless and the predators lose there hold over us.
I found myself in a plane of darkness once. I could not feel God or light or anything good only darkness. Jesus felt the same thing on the Cross.
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN ME?"
All I had to hang on to was the thought that God would not have brought me this far to let me go out this way. Again I was not afraid of dying but of the death of my soul. As far as appearances it looked hopeless. But in reality God was there with me.
Ps 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Ps 16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Ps 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:11
Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Though some of the lines quoted above are prophecies about Jesus, it does not mean they don't apply to us. Believers (those that come to an awareness of Grace) are "fellow heirs" with Christ. We get what he gets.
Maybe that is why I ended up in that plane in the first place. To have the oppotunity to go through some of what he went through. Both good and bad. Much more good came later.
Don't worry so much about predators and hell. Begin to look at the Ravens.
The seers of the Old Testament only saw far off in the future what the seers of the New Testament would experience.
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them AFAR OFF, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
If you look for the negative you will find it. It is all around us. Look beyond the veils, beyond appearances and you will find what is hidden there,...treasures.
Too much talk of hell and predators gives them more power than they actually have. They are more powerfull than us but not more powerful than He who gave us promises. And we are fellow heirs with him. Believe it. Because if you believe that it is true.
That is all the effort required.