Zen Talk by billy

[Mornings Son]

EDIT: This post started some place else but found its way to here as the discussion changed.

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Bodhidharma's reputation as a Dhyana master was said to have preceded his arrival in China, and so and the Chinese Emperor Wu, a devout Buddhist, called upon Bodhidharma to visit the Imperial Palace to teach. Having sponsored the construction of a great many Buddhist monasteries and temples and patronizing the teachers of the various Buddhist sects, Emperor Wu—in accordance with his understanding of their teachings—assumed that he would gain much 'merit' in the form of a happy and prosperous reign. And he assumed he was earning an auspicious rebirth in what some Buddhist schools called a 'Pure Land' where, unlike on earth, all the conditions of life would be conducive to his attainment of Enlightenment.
Emperor Wu: "I have built many temples, copied innumerable Sutras and ordained many monks since becoming Emperor. Therefore, I ask you, what is my merit?"

Bodhidharma: "None whatsoever!" answered Bodhidharma.

Emperor Wu: "Why no merit?"

Bodhidharma:: "Doing things for merit has an impure motive and will only bare the puny fruit of rebirth."

Emperor Wu, a little put out: "What then is the most important principle of Buddhism?"

Bodhidharma: "Vast emptiness. Nothing sacred."

Emperor Wu, by now bewildered, and not a little indignant: "Who is this that stands before me?"

Bodhidharma: "I do not know."
(edit: removed white background to help readability)

[Billy]

Mornings Son wrote:".... earning an auspicious rebirth....where....all the conditions of life would be conducive to attainment of Enlightenment."
 
Captures what I meant in abrasive criticism.  {above is NOT REAL}  Conditions are irrelevant.  Sarcastically > What do you want to attain tomorrow??

In reason and practiced detachment, change needs to be a joke. 

Indifference starts with acquiescence to ANY present condition. 

   When calculation, and doing, and 'auspicious'flow, are availed in my discriminatory moment is a whole lot different than grasping for change that can NEVER happen as a fulfillment of wholeness.

God damn it > be authentic & SEE yourself as complete when life is messy.  I am talking REAL here!!! 

What helped me much, was to comprehend that my reason is FOR detachment 100%.  It has the propensity to remember myself bare, and identify useless self-reflection at all times. 

I use the particular word 'identify,' because I do not bother to remove useless thought, only its heaviness.  God knows what a joke it is goin' on inside MY fucking head.  {But, it is best to be very specific about that feeling,  line of thought, or state when detaching until it is a permeating habit}*

'Self-improvement' is a seriously misguided charade.  Being integrated is all that matters. You are already sufficient.  Not knowing this
brings endless exercises in self-pity.

*I will put basic detachment info as I practiced it in New Seer.

[Mornings Son]

OOii billy !!!!

Well spoken

zen master Obaku said:
So, if you students of the Way are mistaken about your own real Mind... you will indulge in various achievements and practices and expect to attain realization by such graduated practices. But, even after aeons of diligent searching, you will not be able to attain to the Way. These methods cannot be compared to the sudden elimination of conceptual thought, the certain knowledge that there is nothing at all which has absolute existence, nothing on which to lay hold, nothing on which to rely, nothing in which to abide, nothing subjective or objective. It is by preventing the rise of conceptual thought that you will realize Bodhi; and, when you do, you will just be realizing the Buddha who has always existed in your own Mind!

[Billy]

In case it slipped by, I am truly being pissy and not too fond of the nomenclatures for seeking and attaining.

Thank you Mornings Son for your compliment.

I mean to provoke so as to engage constructively--say some things.

[Mornings Son]

THis is the 3rd time I read your post.

I get you and got you

your dislike words for seeking and other new age dingledangle.

But you know, don't mistake the finger(words) for the moon(truth/knowledge) its pointing to

I got a few good chat friend who I believe you like and could find similar dislike

[Billy]

Mornings Son wrote:
   To be sure, I learn(ed) from guiding words.  Those that arise unanticipated and applied to the empirical moments are where understanding is most to be had. 

   And frankly, to be authentic requires a divorce from conventional wisdom.  Words reflect a world's view. 

   In authenticity the most suitable words arise genuinely.  Words are secondary to the presence that allows for them.

   As you implied yourself, the sense of seeking and myriad accompaniments tend to block real maturity.  My finger is pointing 'trap'
(tell your friend to join our forum and introduce himself to me)

   Better yet, you are my friend Mornings Son.  Please engage me in dialogue anytime.

[Mornings Son]

What is conventional wisdom?
I'll drop in at the Ixtlan chat

[Billy]

I am speaking of the philosophical view.  Finally, the world has to be your responsibility.  The intent of gathering of knowledge cannot remain a mainstay.  When do you ever have enough so that you principally move from inside out?  You must ground the knowing as your expressive self.  Finally, words in receipt and words parsed out are self-actualization, and not an exercise in futility.   Oh, I had to laugh at that description.  The vagary here--REALLY NOW: a difference between exercise in futility and controlled folly???

lol   Don't you love it? ......such  refinement!!

[Billy]

Remember the old town......   ...

[Billy]

The principle 'safeground':
I draw from a simple intention > I deserve negation because _ _ _ _ _ _  {Fill in endless blanks of what really amounts to self-pity.  (there I said it.)}
I attain to one affectation > being purely inadequate to exist.  
  This requires self-reflection to clarify one's separation from EVERYTHING (initially, by dredging up a sense of humiliation, loath, failure, deficiency, and rejections for a few moments).
{I do this to dispose of the worldly connectors so as to move onto self-consuming sense self-worthlessness (I drown myself)}

 PALPABLE TASTE & MELTING HEART >

  This sensation has to be a foundation for corresponding detachment because without it, such practice lacks the power of EMPTY wholeness.
   I do not detach to remove ego; I detach to empower it with needed space, high energy and awareness (especially that fascilitated through reason).  PLAY without ego???

Nirvana is ego optimally at PLAY!!!

Even stipulating to form being illusory, it is an illusion I desire.

[Billy]

You may ascertain I am occupied with the subject of shame.  That is incorrect.  And I am not occupied with the subject of detachment per se; I am talking about energy utilization, and the magnitude of energy lost in 'negative' states that is convertible to gains.

  The conventional wisdom is to avoid emotions envy, jealousy, anger, and so on.  That's ****.  The full range of emotions are desirable (if not necessary).
    Understanding how to 'flip' self-shame makes everything else a piece of cake. 

    I mokidokidoki too.

[Mornings Son]

The full range of emotions are desirable - you write

well it depends on wether you have emotions or emotions has you

Does emotions rise from self-importance or for sensing/Seeing

[Billy]

Mornings Son wrote:The full range of emotions are desirable .... emotions rise from self-importance...
 


Yes, my emotions do rise from self-import.  Though in controlled folly, I have an egoic/finite description of myself (I am not a ship without a port in the tonal).   You seem to forget that ego does not necessarily exclude SELF's encompassing awareness.  

Most people lack awareness, and so emotions, ego, and self-importance prevent authenticity that arises from underlying knowledge of one's being whole.

My emotions rise up for the textures and richness in being alive.  These are not diluted.  As I mean to be angry, I assure you the person I am engaging will know.  Emotions that rise spontaneously are given that capacity to do so, and yet immediately a sense of SELF rises spontaneously too.  (this comes from practice > REASON's detachment)

 
 P.S.  Emotion is a useful tool for survival (and it precedes reason and language).

[Billy]

Let me explain:   I do not DO any ****, faggoty ass, lame 'shame' **** {yuk,spit,spit > plus a slew of descriptions deprecating race, gender, religion and most anything human} 

   I mean to be serious here.....all of my self-negation stuff is a self-generated prop that I later discovered is from out of the dark ages...Thelema...Quietism... Monastic annihilatory...practices of St. Teresa,etc etc.

   Only I did it better 'cause I got right to the heart---in fact, I brutally ripped mine apart with complete abandon.  I'm not sure why I knew to trust myself to do that--I just did.  This is what I am putting out there (read Miguel de Molinos: Spiritual Guide which Disentantangles the Soul, or better yet > ask me).

    While I SEE through my prejudicial clothing, I have suits that I like to wear- those that I am most comfortable in. 

  Too, I dress life with my own judgements, and simultaneously disregard them.
Living in controlled folly is to like and dislike with impunity.

Reality's fabric is everything to me, and yet this f-o-r-m-a-l-i-t-y is not allowed to supersede my skin and bones. 

And let me begin to tell you a thing or two about how hollow I am underneath my clothing.......   ...

[bit shiny]

where are the new seers

Hiding in a closet ?

who is dealing the cards in the hand

from whence came to shall from whence return

all in good time

[Guest]