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What Sexy, Consciously Awake Women NEED & Don’t WANT from Men By Kelly Marceau I’d like to allow my vulnerability to shine through in this piece.It’s rare that I let down my guard, and come from the heart or speak from the feminine, especially publicly. My masculine has been ruling for so long, I didn’t even realize how hardened I have become, until about a month ago when someone came into my life for a brief moment, blasted some serious perspective, and awoke the sleeping feminine in me.
I’m here, today, ready to show how strong VULNERABILITY truly is.
It’s my coming out party BITCHES.
What, what? REPRESENT.
The word Consciously Awake might trip some of you up. What the heck does that mean and why the hell is it so important? Let me put it to you bluntly, when you are not dealing with a Consciously Awake woman you are dealing with crazy bitches, women with emotional problems and severe insecurity issues.
Isn’t that all women? You might be thinking.
NO.If you love drama and women who leak massive amounts of insecurity at you then you might have no business reading this, but if you want to actually be with a woman that you can grow a relationship with, you might want to settle into your seat for the next ten minutes, cause I’m about to lay down some meaningful ****.
If you’re smart you’ll consider what I am conveying and digest then reflect.
If you’re dumb you’ll go back to the same old bullshit that doesn’t work.
The choice is yours.Before I fall too deep down the rabbit hole, let me express that EVERYONE has issues, but what sets Consciously Awake women apart from every other type of woman on this planet is something called SELF AWARENESS. Yes, Consciously Awake means Self Aware. It is the complete antithesis of SELF CONSCIOUS.
All women start out a little off. Whether it is childhood trauma, sexual abuse, mommy and daddy didn’t teach you much about self respect or worth, bad choices in men, insecurities, doubt, self deprecation—all women have to navigate these waters until they personally decide how they want to view themselves.
I see a lot of self hate in this world, and I, for one, have never struggled with self hate. Self hate is just plain weird and a waste of time in my opinion. I get there will always be someone better, faster, stronger, prettier than me, but there is no one exactly like me. Just like there is no one like you and that alone is worthy of self love and celebration.
When I was twenty-three I discovered I had some issues I needed to examine and work out. I had no idea that my past was playing itself out in my present or why I chose the guys I did. The only thing I had gotten right and didn’t *** around with when it came to my worth was my ability to not compromise what I wanted out of life. I had a fine relationship with my outer life, but my romantic life kept tripping me up. I chose men that were ambitious and driven, but complete pricks. I liked men that were wicked smart and some of those fools were too wicked for their own good.
Then I met Adam. Adam and I just clicked. There wasn’t a single thing that I couldn’t talk to Adam about, which was such a relief. Adam was a Consciously Awake man, the first I had ever encountered in my life, and his self awareness opened my own world to an expansion of SELF I had been craving for a long time. At twenty three, I got very real with myself. My desire to AWAKEN was bigger than my desire to stay unconscious and I decided to confront my demons and do the work to become a more Consciously Awake human being.
Choosing Conscious Awareness was fuuucking brutal.Real Self Examination requires COURAGE and DISCIPLINE.
You don’t know what courage looks like until you are sinking in piles of your own **** and you have to figure a way out before it suffocates you.Let’s make no mistake—Consciously Awake Women don’t just exist—we have evolved through enormous effort and courage to confront the tumultuous waters of our own emotional landscape and social conditioning. Women like us are not entitled or self righteous, we are confident and love ourselves. Don’t mistake self-love and self-care for selfish. Women like us are not selfish, we just have boundaries, and we trust our intuition.
THE SOLUTION TO MODERN DAY DYSFUNCTION
Consciously Awake Women are not your average woman. We will not allow fear to prohibit us from looking into the fires of our own souls and own our emotional triggers, past wounds, flaws, mistakes, or pain. We aren’t afraid of therapy or coaching. We have consciously chosen to grow and evolve our beings and take pride in our personal development.
We care about our health, attitude, style, and connections. You can talk to women like us, even if you piss us off and a situation gets heated we are reasonable. We can admit when we are wrong. We will come around and we are always willing to talk things out once the dust has settled, unless we have decided you’re not worth our time or energy.
Consciously Awake Women are not flawless, stuff does come up, and we slip up from time to time, but what sets us apart is deep down we are psychologically healthy and sane, even if we like to get crazy at a good party, enjoy a fabulous cocktail or the occasional puff. Awake doesn’t mean boring, it doesn’t mean goodie goodie, it means that we deal with our issues and our problems are workable.
Consciously Awake Women are relationship material and the kind of women MEN want.
Listen MEN, WE NEED YOU.All this – WE DON’T NEED YOU – **** is a big fat fucking lie.
The problem is a lot of you are lame, unreliable, emotional stunted, and impossible to date.
There is a reason a lot women have every right to think the vast majority of men are cavemen, stupid, and a headache.
Ever since the Women’s Lib movement women have been trying so hard to compete with men for the respect and equality we deserve that women have only begun to fully understand how the over-arching male ego of our greater reality and history has fractured our femininity. Women’s Lib made women more masculine, not feminine. If women wanted to play with the BIG BOYS we had to play a man’s game. We had to armor up. Women turned to masculinity for strength to compete in a man’s world, making us hard, bitter, aggressive, angry bitches who have little to no faith in the emotional maturity or acknowledgement of men. It’s age long conundrum and situation that I personally feel is about to come to a very big HEAD.
Consciously Awake Women are tired of fighting and shrinking for the right to seen and honored for the magnitude of what and who we are. We want you to take your blinders off. We want you to actually treat women the way you would want men to treat your daughters.
I, for one, am tired to fighting and shrinking.
Today, I am taking off the armor and the boxing gloves.
I no longer need to self protect to be STRONG. I am STRONG.
I’m not afraid to feel. I am emotional. I can be hurt and it is okay.
Strong Consciously Awake Women seek emotionally mature MEN who value personal and emotional growth.
THE PROBLEM WOMEN FACE WITH SOME MEN
There is nothing unsexier to a woman who is capable of owning her own **** and having a healthy functional relationship than a guy who is still potty training emotionally, and yet these types are running rampant in our culture. I have to address these types of guys so that the ones who are like this can be called out and the women still toying with these dudes can see the signs and make better choices.
Let this be noted, emotionally messed up women fall into the same category as these emotional challenged men. They’re merely opposite ends of a spectrum, so keep that in mind if as you read and find yourself wanting to argue that women have issues too! Yes, a lot of women have issues just like men. When you see me writing about the dysfunction in men, it goes both ways.
There is a big difference between a MAN who can harness his boy spirit, and be playful, loving, funny, and obnoxious, and a man who has the emotional intelligence of a teenage boy.
3 SIGNS A MAN IS STILL POTTY TRAINING EMOTIONALLY
1). He’s never explored his emotional landscape or done inner personal work, meaning gone through extensive therapy or personal and emotional coaching.
2). He can’t own his ****, meaning his emotional issues, triggers, unresolved childhood stuff or dysfunctional family imprinting.
3) He’s insecure and projects his fear and emotional wounds onto you, but tries to spin it like you’re the one with issues.
Emotionally stunted MEN are an epidemic in our culture.
A lot of these emotionally stunted guys have awesome personalities, cause they’re cool in every other way than how they choose to deal with their emotions. ALL WOMEN get caught up with these types at one stage or another until they wise up. WHY? Cause we aren’t living in a culture where the emotional intelligence of men is predominately great and sometimes it takes awhile to see people for who they actually are.
A lot of women are so starved for connection that they make excuses and then get roped into year long love affairs when WARNING SIGNS have been flashing the entire time. It gets lonely out there for women when 9 out of 10 guys have fractured male egos. The choices for women are not exactly far reaching.
Listen up ladies, stop falling for a guy’s potential or what he could be. If he has major emotional issues (like the ones I highlighted), you will be baby siting, playing mommy, and living with a headache larger than life! Unless he is willing to work his **** out without you nagging him to man up, or he has his own personal desire to grow himself, you will suffer his shortcomings. I can guarantee that.
In my opinion, guys like these are an EPIC WASTE OF TIME and are best left to girls who just don’t get it.
Don’t get duped by looks, good sex, or whatever fun qualities these guys posses. You need to find a man who is constantly growing himself or else you will wind up in a one sided relationship, bitter, and unfulfilled. A lot of women want to be with the idea of someone, but unless you want your delusions to come crashing down and be in the worst emotional pain of your life, LISTEN TO ME. I have seen more than you can imagine and I have dedicated my psyche to awakening since I was twenty-four.
Consciously Awake Women might be attracted to these types for a couple days, even weeks if you rarely hang out, but the second she sees your bullshit she will lose interest. We’ve already been down that road and we aren’t looking for disappointment. We are looking for someone who stands out. Women like us are not afraid of a man who challenges us to grow our being. If you are not growing and rising up to the level you want you to living in your fears and I, for one, didn’t come here to live in fears.
It is a daily choice to confront what scares you. You can either choose to live in fear or you can choose to get the life you crave and need to fully experience what you are capable of.
Only fucked up women want to babysit or play mommy to men, the rest of us want the real deal and evolved men.
Good women need MEN that can self reflect, own their ****, and take responsibility for their emotional wounds or else women are stuck in a world full of emotional and mental midgets.
Women need MEN who have the courage to confront their demons.We are not asking for perfection, but we have high standards. You can have issues but you better be dealing with them. We want to be with men who take your emotional maturity seriously.
If you have ever heard a women you cared for tell you that you need to:
1). Man Up
2). Become more Aware, Accountable, or Responsible
3). Go to Counseling
4). Own Your ****
5). Stop Projecting, Controlling, and Criticizing
6). Hear not Listen
7). That you act like a Baby, a Queen or a ****, and have Severe Emotional Problems
YOU NEED TO CHECK YOURSELF BEFORE YOU RIIIGGEDY WRECK YOURSELF.TIPS FOR MEN WHO HAVE ISSUES
We want men we can rely on and can compliment us. We don’t want to COMPETE with you. We want men who will take the time to get to know us, honor our brilliance, beauty, personalities, and capabilities without tearing us down or not showing up the way a lot of men do. Men who are hard on themselves or beat themselves up will be hard on you. And that **** ain’t kosher, you feel me?
All this self deprecation and abuse in our culture has to end. What good does beating yourself up do? If you want to be GREAT at something just do it, keep at it, and be patient with your process. If you suck or have a lot of growth ahead of you, just own it and move forward. Why would you be your own slave driver? Why would you want to cut someone that you care about down to size so you don’t have to own the fact that you are in dire need of emotional growth?
Beating yourself down, feeling bad, insecure, not good enough, or worthy is a waste. It solves nothing. The only thing it does is make you feel horrible, so if someone is doing this to you or to themselves—BAIL. Don’t wait around for that person to figure themselves out. If you choose to be friends with men who have emotional issues, let them do their thing, but don’t have delusions about their growth and what that could mean for you.
We need to look toward SOLUTIONS and get to where we want to be and stop wasting time. You don’t have a lot of time on this planet.
Women who have gone to great lengths to develop themselves emotionally and who have worked for what they have in life are not about to apologize, minimize their feelings or sell themselves short for these self entitled little brat boys who want to be the prize. Evolved women don’t chase men, girls do. Girls that don’t know their own worth will put guys on a pedastool and if you need that, man, you have a VERY LOW SELF ESTEEM.
You might as well tell everyone you need a fluffer in life in order to get an erection, cause that is the kind of guy you are emotionally. If a woman is bold enough to tell you she wants you or likes you, you need take the reigns dude, on EVERY LEVEL, or else she is not going to chase you, and she will start to think you are not man enough. No woman worth having is ever going to dote on you when you haven’t given her a reason to. She won’t cater to insecurities when you don’t posses the ability in your heart to feel her love. And she sure as **** won’t shovel reassurance at you when she can tell that reassuring you is going to be a full time job.
If you want a woman, go get her, cause Consciously Awake Women don’t wait around. We look for authentic qualities and men who represent. We want the real deal and only give three chances (if that). If you blow it, that’s it.
Some men like to call women nags, bitches, crazy, cunts, intense and whatever else you can muster, but let me be the first to tell you that our feelings have an origin. Women aren’t bitches or intense for no reason. We are not crazy either. We are tired of dealing with emotional and mental morons we can’t grow a relationship with.
It’s lonely and exhausting for powerful women who can’t find men that are our emotional equal. And you guys who just want what they want without working for it aren’t going to EVER get GREAT.
In all fairness, not all men have their head in the sand. Some men take a proactive stance about their inner personal work and self reflect, look at the common theme and failures in their relationships, and actively seek evolution without mommy dearest having to spank them into shape, but for those of you that are stubborn, caught up in image, have Peter Pan Syndrome, think your **** don’t stink, always blame the woman and never take ownership of the part you play in your twisted dynamics, I’m telling you now, that you can have the kind of woman you want if you choose to become the kind of man a woman like that could actually be with.
You will never get an amazing women if YOU’RE LAME. Period.
Getting what you want and need doesn’t have to be so difficult or challenging.
ALL OF US ARE LOOKING TO BE LOVED AND LOVED IN RETURN.If you love someone or want someone and you think they’re out of your league or you look at them and see how far you have to grow and cower, that is ON YOU. Don’t ever try to be something you are not. We are all flawed and in need of growth. Honoring the truth and doing what it takes daily is all that anyone can ask. You have to be the one to decide how much you are willing to give and devote of your being to what your heart truly desires. Fear of pain, hurt, loss is not an excuse.
You are here to LIVE and LOVE not hide under the bed. Let someone stand by you, but take some fucking responsibility for yourself. You cannot ever ask something of someone you are not willing to do with yourself.
Right now, I’m pioneering a path to empower a new breed of women. Women who can stand in their power and be enough for themselves, so that they stop hurting themselves unintentionally. Men will always be a problem, they’re men, but I think that the heart of a woman’s issues is her own worth. If you stop looking outside of yourself and start looking at how you create your reality you have to ask yourself what you are and aren’t willing to put up with?
No man on this planet is worth half the heart ache you feel. The right ones take care of you and don’t *** with you and you need to gravitate toward those kinds of men with all your heart. If you don’t know when to trust yourself or how to trust yourself and love yourself to choose better, ask yourself these 3 things:
1). Do I feel good about myself around this person?
2). Does this person serve my highest good?
3). Does this person treat me with respect and compassion?
If you answer NO to any of these questions: GET THE *** OUT!There are way too many men in this world to SETTLE for bullshit. And if he’s hot, honey there will be another. There are always others.
Let’s be allies and let’s help each other out. Life is challenging enough.
Good Talk, YO!
- See more at: http://yoganonymous.com/what-sexy-consc ... rJSSI.dpuf
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When will Sexy, Consciously Awake Women realize they can't insult and degrade men into respecting them?
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Also by Kelly Marceau
Men Who Don’t Pay For First Dates Are Cheap Bastards!
by Kelly Marceau | Jan 30, 2014 | RANTS, RELATIONSHIPS, SEX, SPIRITUALITY, STATES OF BEING | 27 comments
You are a Cheap Bastard if you ask a woman on a date and don’t pay or worse, expect her to go DUTCH.
First impressions ARE EVERYTHING!
If you own a business and you are wooing potential clients you pay the WHOLE CHECK. It’s customary… Why would it be any different when you are trying to court a woman?
The Cheap Bastards of the WORLD are UNATTRACTIVE and GROSS.
A man who actually describes himself as cheap probably has control
issues with money. Cheap is not frugal. Cheap is CHEAP and a cheap
tipper will get me to bounce faster than a bad kisser. He’s either
broke, weird about money, a tight ass, or something else is going on
that I, personally, want no part of.
WHO PAYS ON FIRST DATES MATTERS. IT MATTERS A LOT.
Some men resent the traditions that have locked them in the role of
provider. A lot men don’t want to work that hard and don’t want the
responsibility. The mentality is— women are taking on the world, earning
just as much as men now, so shouldn’t who pays be redefined? SERIOUSLY? No
matter what women do you still have your part to play. Some men ****
about how much it costs them to date. Listen, if you can’t afford a BMW
you don’t buy one. You have to live within your means. If you can’t
afford to serial date, then date sparingly.
MOST WOMEN ARE LOOKING FOR GENTLEMAN AND LOVE WHEN THEY DATE.
A man who doesn’t want to pay on the first date is NOT a KEEPER.
If you’re a woman and you want to throw down on the first date, you
better be prepared to act like a man in your relationship. When a woman
denies a man his generosity he is less likely to want to give it or try
as hard. So just remember that when you are out on first dates and
offering up your cash.
If you are a man and you want to make a good first impression PAY THE CHECK DUDE. Most men I have spoken to say this shouldn’t even be a question, true gentleman WANT TO PAY. If
you truly cannot afford to pay, stop whining and get creative!!!!! You
can do cool **** that doesn’t cost money but you need to think outside
the box.
A generous or creative man is way more appealing to a woman than a penny pitching tightwad with no vision.
For those of you men who are looking for a woman to be your sugar
mama and float your existence, and you have no problem joining the
parade of man-women who make you their ****, just know that eventually
she will outsource your ass because women who have to pay, especially
for men, are often looking for the next best thing. If she has to pay,
you can guarantee she will get what she wants and have HIGH EXPECTATIONS. Women who act like men, act like men in more ways than one.
I realize that not ALL WOMEN are remarkable. Some
women are so lame they are not worth your money, time or energy. If you
are a man out on date with a woman who talks non-stop about herself and
has no real remote interest in you, then by all means, allow her to pay
for torturing you with the worst date EVER. If you go on a date with a NARCISSISTIC ****
it is okay to excuse yourself to the restroom and bounce. You don’t
have to pay for that ****. Narcissists need a dose of their own medicine
and since almost nothing gets them to awaken, a rude awakening is just
the kind of wake up call these women need. (THIS IS THE ONE EXCEPTION YOU DON’T HAVE TO PAY.)
JUST TO BE CLEAR: I didn’t say you could be a jerk to the women who are decent but you don’t want to date again. ONLY the narcissists get the bounce.
MEN… if you go out on a first date with a woman who insists on paying
you need to realize that this woman is never going to let you be the
man and if you like that kind of thing, alright. If you want to be with a
woman who doesn’t always need to wear the pants, you’d better pay.
Not all STRONG INDEPENDENT WOMEN are
extreme feminists who want to act like dudes in the dating world. Just
because you are a strong independent woman doesn’t mean you don’t
appreciate certain traditional male roles.
Many traditional male roles embody the DIVINE MASCULINE. I
would never give a man the time of day if he wanted to be the woman in
the dynamic. I am not a lesbian. I don’t want to be with a feminine man
who wants to be courted and treated like a lady. I want to be with a
masculine man who knows how to and WANTS to properly court women.
All you people who want to blur the lines of gender and make men and
women the same are damaging the profound understanding it requires to
acknowledge the DIFFERENCES between MEN and WOMEN. Whether you like it or not, WE ARE NOT THE SAME!
If you want to be a woman, get a sex change, but don’t subject us to your bullshit.
I like MEN who act LIKE MEN and use their feminine wisely.
When a man offers to walk with me somewhere, just to be by my side
because there is some part of him that wants to make sure I am safe I
feel cherished. When a man opens my door, brings me flowers, or takes me
to UNCER racing for a first date rather the typical dinner date it
makes FEELS GOOD! Men who go out of their way ROCK.
I’m not a great planner and I spend so much time doing things for others it’s really nice when a man SHOWS UP and takes the reigns. I like a man who thinks outside the box. I want to be treated like a GODDESS and so DO MOST WOMEN. Gentlemanly
qualities and charm are not outdated. We women need to revive the
desire for chivalry, romance, and courting. These things make A LOT of
women feel good. The fact that some women have done away with
appreciating such tokens of affection and respect is so tragic.
I think ALL WOMEN need to cherish their femininity and look at it as
empowering, rather than trying to prove something to men that we don’t
need to prove. I don’t think all tradition is bullshit. I also don’t
think that by expressing the value I see in certain traditional male and
female roles that I’m giving away my power. I can RECEIVE and not feel
like I owe someone something. I don’t need to prove just how self
sufficient I am. I see myself in action every fucking day.
Men and Women have relationships for a reason. I see so many people
in denial about what they need, what they want, and what truly matters
to them. We need to get beyond all the bullshit and GET REAL about what we really want and be okay with it.
Some UBER feminists have told me that I cannot call myself an
independent woman and expect men to pay. I think that is utter bullshit
propaganda from women who have suffocated their own femininity. Women
who have lost sight of the value of allowing men to act like MEN need to
get off their THRONE and come back down to Earth. If
you are an extreme feminist who needs to prove who is boss in your world
and you find it demeaning when a man tries to treat you to a date,
don’t ruin it for the rest of us who aren’t competing with men or
threatened by men.
So what if you can open your own door and you don’t need a man for
this or that. If you are having sex or relationships with men then stop
wearing the “I DON’T NEED A MAN FACADE.” Let down your
guard, and realize that you don’t need to prove you can make your own
way to show just how capable you are. Women who go out with men but then
treat men like they don’t need them are robbing themselves of something
that is meant to elicit joy. It is also sending mixed messages to men.
Maybe one of the reasons a lot of men avoid strong women is because
they’ve been castrated by too many obnoxious hard core feminists who
don’t see the value in what men actually have to offer.
Just so you MEN know, not all of us are tainted.
I believe that women need men. Women NEED MEN TO ACT LIKE MEN.
Let’s not lose those values… We can embrace some traditions without losing our worth.
The men who fight me on this are misogynists at heart.
The men who see the VALUE in what I am saying are gentlemen and were raised properly.
There is no way to eliminate the Cheap Bastards of the world, but you can stop dating them and the narcissists. Eventually the loneliness will get them to wake the ****.
Good Talk, Kelly Marceau
P.S. I would love to create a dialogue around this just to see what
women and men think about this topic. Please tell me your perspective in
the box below so that everyone can begin to see what is on your mind
regarding this topic.
You go girl! I mean that. Go! Go away! Shoo! You ain't wanted here. Git!
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maybe you'd like to write your own philosophy here JJ..im sure you are confident enough.. x
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I have seen a couple of things posted about this, do I need to man up Shamanka?
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Littlepaw wrote:I have seen a couple of things posted about this, do I need to man up Shamanka?Nah. You don't need to do anything Littlepaw.
You, (and others), probably remember my comments from several weeks back in the "Feminine Appreciation" thread in which I mentioned I was going to make a new thread explaining my views on gender issues. I imagine some people have wondered what happened with that and why the thread never came to be. Well, the truth is I did over 2 hours of audio recording explaining my views, trying to back them up as well as I could being very out of practice on discussing these things and arguing from a position that is pretty much the opposite of what everyone here has been told is the morally correct way to view things, and with evidence completely contrary to what the TV has told everyone to believe about gender issues. But, in the end I didn't post it. The reason was because I really, really didn't want to.
Discussing these issues cost me a lot in the past. I was a fanatic, I was determined to push everyone to agreeing with me and I lost friends and isolated myself from people because of it. Yes, I got a lot of respect from many people in the men's rights movement online, but what good did that ever do me? I've got a little bit of a legacy. If you've ever heard of MGTOW, (Men Going Their Own Way), well it was in part my writings that inspired it, (the main creator actually listed me as one of the founding members, although I never was actively involved with them). Also if you've ever seen anyone rant "feminazi ****!" at someone on youtube well I'll take credit for that as a partial legacy from some of the stuff I did in my activist days. I don't agree with the ranting approach now, but I know how easy it can be to find oneself doing that. So I guess I gained a little. But it really felt like so little compared to what I was doing to myself back then.
Anyway, its been years since I really talked about these issues, and I didn't come to these forums for that purpose. So that's why I didn't post it. I thought it would be distracting from my real goals and that it might isolate me from everyone here as it has done sometimes in the past. And I didn't want that to happen either, because I see this place and the people who come here as important to my path. But I guess the fact that I don't want to discuss this stuff is irrelevent. I hate saying that I felt moved by the spirit to reply to shamanka in here because I think it sounds generic and stupid, but its what happened. So, I guess I need to talk in these forums about this stuff and see where it goes. You, Littlepaw, are free of course to join in the discussion as you wish, but for me at this moment I feel like this is "my fight" so to speak, and that I shouldn't hesitate any longer on it.
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Sounds like you have some History that just wont go away! The Warriors path includes the technique of erasing personal History using the technique of not - doing. I know you feel this your fight but who is the enemy? Shamanka? Women? I have to be honest and say my feeling is that Shamanka will be better off without something else to fight but I bet she is ready for one.
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shamanka wrote:maybe you'd like to write your own philosophy here JJ..im sure you are confident enough.. xIf you wish. My philosophy on this topic, specifically how men and women "should" relate to each other romantically, is based on everyone having as much freedom as possible and seeing people as individuals; not as members of groups with specific rules for behaving. Find whatever you can that works best for you, and let other people do it for themselves without trying to fit their relationships into the mold that you think they should be.
That really should be all that needs to be said about it, but unfortunately people have these expectations and roles that they feel a right to assign to others based on what they were born and this causes problems. Worse still, these roles are heavily enforced by society and especially the God-forsaken television so people end up identifying with them. People have extreme trouble being rational and open-minded towards ideas that contradict their identity beliefs. Even when those beliefs are harmful to themselves, people still often protect the heirarchy in which they've placed their own self-identity; when those heirarchical rules are to one's benefit its a rare person indeed who has the ability to object to them on principal. So when others fail to provide them with things the heirarchy teaches them are their entitlements, women such as Kelly Marceau blame others rather than question the reasonableness of their own demand that men conform to the heirarchical rules. If only all women would be like her, "good", and refuse to date all the bad, unattractive, icky men who aren't acting the way that she wants them to then all those unacceptable men would be forced to be what she wants them to be.
Of course, those rules really aren't serving anyone well, (the powers that be who designed them planned it that way). Its no real surprise that Kelly is having trouble finding men who meet her standard for "real man" while simultaneously cowtailing to her every demand and ignoring her verbal abuse. When she tells men that if they don't pay for the first date with her they won't get a second one every man who hasn't totally let himself be brainwashed into accepting his position in the heirarcy and has any self esteem would ask himself "What's the down side?". Men who do keep paying for dates have ego issues, (which of course women like Kelly use as another weapon to attack them, rather than looking at how her contribution in putting them into a lesser position in the heirarchy has contributed to the problem), because simply adults with good egos don't feel obligated to pay for some other adult to eat dinner just because of what kind of body you were born with.
I feel Kelly, and anyone else, would be much better served by dropping any expectations and just seeing who the people she meets really are. If she finds herself attracted to someone and it turns romantic, great! Lets hope she keeps her demands from getting in the way and preventing her from experiencing that happiness.
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Littlepaw wrote:Sounds like you have some History that just wont go away! The Warriors path includes the technique of erasing personal History using the technique of not - doing. I know you feel this your fight but who is the enemy? Shamanka? Women? I have to be honest and say my feeling is that Shamanka will be better off without something else to fight but I bet she is ready for one.I don't see shamanka as an enemy. I'm fighting this one FOR her, even if it doesn't look like it so much at the moment. I'm fighting it for everyone else as well; I don't see how we're going to avoid getting rolled up by the eagle if we can't even manage not to get ROLE'd up by social expectations, but the spirit is sort of making me engage with shamanka this way right now.
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The Eagle! I doubt many of us are going to avoid that Lol. I know you have not discussed this issue for some years and it concerns me that you are reluctant to do so. Am I wrong in thinking that you chose a watered down version of your views to present above? Have you kept something back in reserve if needed if the fight gets serious? Our last discussion about gender roles got me thinking. I marked you down as someone who is not afraid to speak passionately about what he believes, great! but is this really the right time? What is going on with Shamanka? I really don't know her well enough to asses what kind of place she is in, if she is feeling empowered or vulnerable, full of resolve or uncertain about things? Have you considered that by trashing Kelly Marceau you are trashing Shamankas voice of expression? What I am trying to say is is it for Shamankas benefit that you correct her on this issue?
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Littlepaw wrote:The Eagle! I doubt many of us are going to avoid that Lol. I know you have not discussed this issue for some years and it concerns me that you are reluctant to do so. Am I wrong in thinking that you chose a watered down version of your views to present above? Have you kept something back in reserve if needed if the fight gets serious?I don't think is accurate to call what I gave above a watered down version of my views. Obviously I didn't write down all of my thoughts on gender issues. First I wanted to remain on topic with the thread and stay away from tangents. Secondly, I wanted to start with the very basics. Find out where any disagreements are with the fundamentals before trying to build from them.
Have you kept something back in reserve if needed if the fight gets serious?I really don't like the word fight used as a synonym for debate. In part, because the implications of "serious debate" and "serious fight" are pretty much opposites. I have reasons for my views, and if I don't state them all it isn't out of trying to keep some ammo in reserve but out of finding where the disagreement is in the first place before presenting the argument, (using the logical definition of argument, and not the more modern use where argument is a synonym for "shouting match").
Our last discussion about gender roles got me thinking. I marked you
down as someone who is not afraid to speak passionately about what he
believes, great! but is this really the right time? What is going on
with Shamanka? I really don't know her well enough to asses what kind
of place she is in, if she is feeling empowered or vulnerable, full of
resolve or uncertain about things?This is getting a little uncomfortable because I'm feeling like we're talking about shamanka as if she wasn't here, which people usually find to be rude. So let me address shamanka directly here for a moment, and say I hope you don't feel offended by being talked about like this as that isn't my intent, (and I doubt its Littlepaw's intent either).
To answer the questions, I didn't choose the time like a military strategist or anything. As I didn't like saying before and I still don't like the way it sounds now, I felt moved by the spirit to respond. It chose the time.
Have you considered that by trashing Kelly Marceau you are trashing
Shamankas voice of expression? What I am trying to say is is it for
Shamankas benefit that you correct her on this issue?
Have you considered that having one's voice of expression trashed might be a good thing? She's chosen a woman who promotes views that hurt innocent people for her expression. And those views hurt those who embrace them most of all. If everyone around her agrees, and all the men she talks to cower and meekly accept such things, they are doing her a disservice. She, and others here, may never have seen a man stand tall in his own energy and tell a female bully "No, I won't accept that from you. I am not your inferior, not morally, not as far as my sexual and parental value is concerned, and not in any other way. I owe you nothing. I was not born owing any woman anything and whatever needs you think you have do not create an obligation upon me. If you continue to push views that assume female supremacy I want nothing to do with you.". I certainly never saw anything like that on television. Now, at least the people following this thread know what that looks like.
So, that's why I see my discussion of this here as being primarily for her benefit. I'll likely make some other threads on gender issues, which won't be primarily for her sake, but because I've been feeling a building push to discuss them in these forums.
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I talk in sorcery terms when it comes to relationships....i talk from the space of being, not from a tonal space at all....what you do or do not do in the tonal doesnt interest me..
its harmonious energetic flow expressing itself, as a sovereign being, and understanding that and how, if one wishes that can be utilized, for folly on the tonal..as the tonal is nothing but folly...
so taking the tonal out of it, you have no gender, but males and females, are in form, holding different configurations of energy..the man works horizontally and the woman vertically..along with predispositions, set out in 'the rule' (which is a blueprint for how harmonious exchange and tonal groups can function...energetically, most efficiently allowing, for all opposites to be uniquely accommodated for, in balance..only to know the totality of self at that level...
no one has to do this...i don't feel they should do this either, but i have had the joy to experience relationships/interactions with this flow and they are beautiful exchanges...
i dont like 'rules' either...however, rebelling against ones own best tonal folly is futile...because you are not in control....
i understand your hesitance to give up your sovereign being..and i would say, i was the same...then i realized the folly...
atm my folly is to, stand with group 'I's...this is just a matter of perception, its not better or worse it is just where, this being is gaining awareness/power from....soon this will also turn to folly...
so seeing difficulties with interactions in such situations, what i count as a total waste of energy,i attempted to express an alternative.
whether now, or in the future if warriors on this path, become seers and then people of knowledge..they will understand the validity of the rule, and what i have written, what CC wrote, and, what Theun Mares wrote on the subject,will come into their attention...because its part (notice i said part) of the path to freedom...
becoming unconcerned with such things as gender issues, is the dropping of a mass consciousness concept, at that point however, you are willing to go with what works as folly on the tonal, rather than fight the good fight of sovereignty and your 'rights' of that..that 'status' doesn't interest you anymore..you've done it and, you wish to gain awareness of something else.
my something else, i am now starting to experience on all levels with some people. This for me is great..i am experiencing this phase of my awareness remembering folly...i require to do this to achieve greater sorcery feats in the future....they also, will become follies...
to gain awareness is to be free...and freedom is my unbending intent....which i already have, so, this is another folly...
to all else i am unconcerned...
i play at folly, because there is only folly...gender included..but what isn't folly, is freedom, all stages must be completely remembered as a folly... how i do them, is this beings joy... how i play along this path, is no one else's concern...
i cannot hurt anyone here on the tonal, unless they choose to be hurt. i cannot make them feel, think or act any different to what they choose to experience. but that is not my concern, as they have their own path to complete..one day they too will see it all as folly...
i share and express my journey as a folly, because that's what it is. Some feel it helps to explore the alternatives i express and some don't...there is no judgement..no one is wrong, and all are completely harmless....and as totally invalid as each other...
to answer some of the points....
romance..to me is a folly...enjoy it if you desire to...
i dont have identity beliefs...but i don't have a penis, therefore on the tonal..err i cant act with a penis...i admit i havent learnt the total act of changing sex in form, to my will yet...energetically yes..in form, no...and i kinda like the female folly, so i wont be saving for a tonal sex change..
please dont fight anything for me, do not be concerned over me..for that would be a pointless folly, for i am in folly anyway....
i have already got past the eagle, when i leave, as before, i shall leave consciously with my awareness intact....so the whole path to me is a folly, in some respects...
LP, what place i am in, depends on the folly you wish to play, interacting with me..but im goo thanks i play at being both empowered and vulnerable and quite ok, with my folly of both.x
trashing my expression isnt possible...i expressed as err, an expression...i has been done..the moment is over...i held no expectations, because i made no point...although i 'knew' JJ would get a nudge to express too...and i am cool with that....
there are no disagreements..this is folly...
i am not offended because there is nothing to offend...that would be a total waste of a folly, for me. one step too far....although i may play it in other circumstances..
its not my concern, whether you talk about 'shamanka' or not..that is a label designed to hang in front of the being, you will only get to see the being, if you slip into being.. we are the same at that point...just energy. at that point we would be silent..and have no requirement for this interaction..but that would be another type of fun, for another time maybe...
don't do things for me..that's a waste of energy..do stuff for your 'totality of self'..that way you wont get offended, if i don't play any more..huh?
btw..recapping is fabulous..i recommend it totally.
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I'll just let you know how parts of your most recent post here sounds to me and the questions I have about them, and you can do what you want with that. I know I'm being critical, but remember I know the difference between what you've written and your being. It isn't your being that I disagree with, its what you've presented here.
I talk in sorcery terms when it comes to relationships....i talk from
the space of being, not from a tonal space at all....what you do or do
not do in the tonal doesnt interest me..its harmonious energetic flow expressing itself, as a sovereign being,
and understanding that and how, if one wishes that can be utilized, for
folly on the tonal..as the tonal is nothing but folly..This seems to be sort of a catch-all that you've gotten into the habit of employing for all disagreements. It reads like "I'm coming from a higher awareness, thus my belief can't be wrong." Combined with your renowned dismissal of evidence and logical arguments as being "from mind" and thus beneath you, that doesn't leave those who disagree any room to work with you. Either they accept what you say on your word alone, dogmatically, or they don't. That's the extent of what your framing of disagreements in this fashion allows. The worst part of it, as it looks to me, is that it forces you to remain completely blind to any errors in your beliefs. Of course, you say you don't have beliefs, but if not then what is it that you have that appear to be beliefs? Isn't the idea that you have no beliefs a belief in itself? I don't know what its like to have no beliefs, but I can imagine what it would be like to pretend not to have them as a defense against being shown to have believed something in error. Are you absolutely sure that isn't what you're doing, and if so is there any way you can explain what it is you are doing so those of us not in the same awareness as you could understand it?
so taking the tonal out of it, you have no gender, but males and
females, are in form, holding different configurations of energy..This reminds me of an argument I came across a lot in my activist days. Except in that case it was usually about men and women being physically different. Basically its "Men and women are different. Thus wo/men should do X". Unless the physical differences between men and women actually relate to X the argument is a non sequitur. The same holds true with energetic differences. I agree that we are energetically configured differently. I don't agree that this fact means that if any woman ever told me that I needed to man up I need to check myself before I riiggedy wreck myself. Is this really just because I'm less aware?i dont like 'rules' either...however, rebelling against ones own best tonal folly is futile...because you are not in control....A question about any rule that I feel should be asked is who authored it? Is it really the spirit/nagual/universe that came up with the rule that women are a prize and that men who think they might be prizes are just emotional potty training spoiled brats, and this is why men should be required to pay for consciously awake women's companionship should they want to date one as that's our best tonal folly? It sure doesn't feel that way. From my awareness, it looks like Kelly and others throughout history have been authoring rules like this themselves, not out of trying to conform with the rules of the universe but out of their own personal motivations and self-interests. Can you explain this a little better or am I still stuck either with dogmatically taking your word for it or not?
so seeing difficulties with interactions in such situations, what i
count as a total waste of energy,i attempted to express an alternative.Well, I've seen others offer traditional anti-male sexism as an alternative to our modern feminist-inspired anti-male sexism, and I've never cared for either alternative. Why not just treat people as human beings? That seems like a good alternative.becoming unconcerned with such things as gender issuesI'm much less concerned about them than I used to be though I still them as problems causing great pain to billions of people. But from my awareness I don't understand why you post so much on things that you are completely unconcerned about.
at that point however, you are willing to go with what works as folly on
the tonal, rather than fight the good fight of sovereignty and your
'rights' of that..that 'status' doesn't interest you anymore..you've
done it and, you wish to gain awareness of something else.It has nothing to do with my status and everything to do with trying to help others. Mostly, I just want others to see the issues for what they are. Once people seem to understand that a problem exists I tend to lose interest, (not sure exactly why, I just tend to work that way).don't do things for me..that's a waste of energy..I promise nothing! Not doing things for other people just doesn't feel right to me.
do stuff for your
'totality of self'..Well yes, I'll do that too.that way you wont get offended, if i don't play any
more..huh?I'll do my best, but I hope you gain something from this regardless of when you choose to stop playing.
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I felt much the same way as Julio about your post Shamanka. You portray yourself as beyond our reach. Are you going to abandon your initial impulse? I disagree with Julio about the meaning of Kelly Marceaus post. I think that we all have needs in relationships and it is our right to express ourselves if these needs are not met. I cant remember a time I felt the need to protest that my relationship needs are not being met and on the other hand I know women personally who do not have their needs met and It is clear to me that women in general do not seem to have their relationship needs met.
I would like to make the comparison between business relationships and romantic relationships. We might have different values on what constitutes a good business relationship but usually if someone feels they are not getting what they originally signed up to in business don't they have the right to speak up about it? they may even have a case legally. Here is a customer complaint.
'' The list of issues goes on and on, and sadly as I write having had my complaints escalated (my premier manager agreed with all the issues) I am still waiting for a proper response having raised the matter in early December. Their own policy promises to keep you informed!!
I have never experienced such terrible service nor such a lack of interest , I will update when and if I actually get some professional response.''
In my experience working in business customers like this usually have the wrong end of the stick and will say anything to get their message across because they feel they are not being listened to. Here is my issue with what Julio is saying I think women in general feel like they are not listened to. I know it is a sweeping statement but this why I think people like Kelly Marceau are posting. To me Kelly is like a poorly treated customer, she knows our business could be improved but we are all individuals so what Kelly has to say is not going to fit for many people.
I know it happens but I've never been mistreated by a women (except my mother) I have always been the one who needs to treat other better. Julio I think the message here is about being more considerate and hearing people out. What i would like to know is why you feel Kelly Marceau views are hurtful?
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Very nice knowledgeful discussion,
hmmm... but what all this written has to do anyhow,
with the fact that women are vertical and man horizontal ?
Seems, very easy to overlook the name of the topic.
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NagualHuman wrote:Very nice knowledgeful discussion,
hmmm... but what all this written has to do anyhow,
with the fact that women are vertical and man horizontal ?
Seems, very easy to overlook the name of the topic.When I was reading the thread http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/5383/harm ... zLshoVWq1wI saw the energy in there. It looked like a group of energetic mostly vertical pillars seperated and all sticking up out of a mostly horizontal fog-like energy mist. The verticle pillars were male and the horizontal mist was female. Since then I've read others say that women "work" vertically and men "work" horizontally, but I took that to mean that's where they either can or need to move, not what their energetic configuration looks like. Because I've seen it exactly the opposite.
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Littlepaw wrote:I felt much the same way as Julio about your post Shamanka. You portray yourself as beyond our reach. Are you going to abandon your initial impulse? I disagree with Julio about the meaning of Kelly Marceaus post. I think that we all have needs in relationships and it is our right to express ourselves if these needs are not met. I cant remember a time I felt the need to protest that my relationship needs are not being met and on the other hand I know women personally who do not have their needs met and It is clear to me that women in general do not seem to have their relationship needs met.
I would like to make the comparison between business relationships and romantic relationships. We might have different values on what constitutes a good business relationship but usually if someone feels they are not getting what they originally signed up to in business don't they have the right to speak up about it? they may even have a case legally. Here is a customer complaint.
'' The list of issues goes on and on, and sadly as I write having had my complaints escalated (my premier manager agreed with all the issues) I am still waiting for a proper response having raised the matter in early December. Their own policy promises to keep you informed!!
I have never experienced such terrible service nor such a lack of interest , I will update when and if I actually get some professional response.''
In my experience working in business customers like this usually have the wrong end of the stick and will say anything to get their message across because they feel they are not being listened to. Here is my issue with what Julio is saying I think women in general feel like they are not listened to. I know it is a sweeping statement but this why I think people like Kelly Marceau are posting. To me Kelly is like a poorly treated customer, she knows our business could be improved but we are all individuals so what Kelly has to say is not going to fit for many people.
I know it happens but I've never been mistreated by a women (except my mother) I have always been the one who needs to treat other better. Julio I think the message here is about being more considerate and hearing people out. What i would like to know is why you feel Kelly Marceau views are hurtful?There's an awful lot I disagree with in what you've written. Before I begin explaining it, I want to tell you the same thing I told Shamanka. I like you and respect your being, even though I disagree with your views. Let me start by pointing out that I never questioned Kelly's right to speak about whatever she wants. I'm a big believer in free speech and would not wish anyone to be censored. I trust you also respect my right to say whatever I want about what she says.
I'd like you to think about your metaphor a bit. What you're doing is putting men in the position of a business that has an obligation to listen to and try to resolve the complaints of people who gave them money for a product and might even have a legal case! To me, this is setting the metaphor up in an extremely biased way. You could have just as easily made women the business, in which case it would be a business demanding people buy products they don't want and insulting them for not doing so. How reasonable would that be?
This next point is going to take a bit to explain. I contend that just because you hear women complain and you don't hear men, this doesn't tell you where the legitimate grievances are. How does the media depict men who complain about women? Or who complain about their issues as men? If a man complains about a woman in his relationship, doesn't he very often have people try to turn it around and blame him? For example, a common sort of conversation might go... "My wife cheated on me", "That sucks, but maybe you should look at what you could have done to better meet her needs and keep her from cheating". I have a hard time imagining someone saying that to a woman complaining about her cheating husband. People don't complain so much when they feel they'll be blamed for doing so.
Additionally, part of men's imprisoning social role is to be the protectors; that doesn't allow room for even acknowledging their own pain, much less talking about it. The anti-role used to keep men in that social role prison is the "wimp" or "whiner". It holds just as much shaming power over men's behavior as "slut" held over women's behavior a hundred years ago when it was an anti-role to their social role. "Wimps" or "whiners" are not treated kindly by society. Because of all these things men tend to just suffer stoicly in silence, like the TV shows us men are supposed to, whatever problems they have. Case in point, a while back I had seen several statistics that women accounted for 75% of all failed suicide attempts. When you look closely at the data of what those attempts were it's pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority were just desperate calls for help; they wanted to be stopped from actually committing suicide. While these actions definitely deserve to be taken seriously and help should be offered to anyone you might find in those situations, the truth is those who actually want to commit suicide usually succeed in doing so. And 7 out of 8 people who skip the cry for help and actually kill themselves are men. They learned to stop asking for help a long time ago.
So, it should be no surprise that men aren't telling you their relationship troubles. Meanwhile, it seems like whenever a woman wants to complain about a man people shove a mic in front of her and turn the TV camera's on. Women, whose social role includes being protected, have learned that the more they complain the more stuff people give them for free. So of course they're going to complain more. But if we look at actions instead of just words, doesn't the much talked about marraige strike men have been on sort of suggest maybe a lot of them aren't so happy with their relationships either even if they don't risk being blamed and shamed by talking to people, including you, about it?
I think there's a pretty good chance if I knew your history I would disagree with you about women never having mistreated you in a relationship. I think there are a combination of psychological things that you do, which I've seen many men do and used to do to a degree myself before I started becoming educated by the side of gender issues you don't ever hear on TV, and these things are skewing your perception. Don't take this as me saying you're stupid, because I don't believe that at all, but rather that there are social pressures that require psychological adaptations by men if they're going to get along in society and most all men do them. I won't get into that here though because that would be better put in a thread of it's own.
Finally, why do I say Kelly's expressions are hurtful? Well, just switch all the gender words in them, (change all instances of men to women and vice versa), and you'll see exactly why I say that. In fact I recommed doing that every time you read anything about men and women. It makes the sexism and the hurtful propaganda more obvious. Those who will argue "well that would be different" either believe that men really aren't equal to women or that something men have done justifies them being treated in a sexist way. I disagree on both counts.
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Hi Julio, I like and respect you too and apologize in advance if my wording in this thread seems like i'm trying to push your buttons. I am hoping we are both copper headed enough to head butt a few times and not get any permanent damage : ) RAMJulio Juliopolis wrote:There's an awful lot I disagree with in what you've written. Before I begin explaining it, I want to tell you the same thing I told Shamanka. I like you and respect your being, even though I disagree with your views. Let me start by pointing out that I never questioned Kelly's right to speak about whatever she wants. I'm a big believer in free speech and would not wish anyone to be censored. I trust you also respect my right to say whatever I want about what she says.Maybe I have not understood what was written in an earlier post so maybe you can clarify what '' You go girl! I mean that. Go! Go away! Shoo! You ain't wanted here. Git! '' means? I took this to mean that you do not want to hear views like Kelly's. I interpret the meaning that she should take her views somewhere else? I'd like you to think about your metaphor a bit. What you're doing is putting men in the position of a business that has an obligation to listen to and try to resolve the complaints of people who gave them money for a product and might even have a legal case! To me, this is setting the metaphor up in an extremely biased way. You could have just as easily made women the business, in which case it would be a business demanding people buy products they don't want and insulting them for not doing so. How reasonable would that be?I'd like to stand by my comparison. Business today is not gender specific with success and failures on both sides. Regardless of males or females being proprietors or customers I believe the ideal of good business is a cooperative exchange between partners and associates. The subject of grievances within business is as vast and multifaceted as in romantic relationships and at the end of the day a letter of complaint should be acknowledged in a polite timely manner to keep those pesky customers happy.This next point is going to take a bit to explain. I contend that just because you hear women complain and you don't hear men, this doesn't tell you where the legitimate grievances are. How does the media depict men who complain about women? Or who complain about their issues as men? If a man complains about a woman in his relationship, doesn't he very often have people try to turn it around and blame him? For example, a common sort of conversation might go... "My wife cheated on me", "That sucks, but maybe you should look at what you could have done to better meet her needs and keep her from cheating". I have a hard time imagining someone saying that to a woman complaining about her cheating husband. People don't complain so much when they feel they'll be blamed for doing so.hmmm, isn't a legitimate grievance one that is voiced? It surely is a problem if men are made to feel like they are to keep their grievances to themselves but is it right to condemn women for voicing theirs?Additionally, part of men's imprisoning social role is to be the protectors; that doesn't allow room for even acknowledging their own pain, much less talking about it. The anti-role used to keep men in that social role prison is the "wimp" or "whiner". It holds just as much shaming power over men's behavior as "slut" held over women's behavior a hundred years ago when it was an anti-role to their social role. "Wimps" or "whiners" are not treated kindly by society. Because of all these things men tend to just suffer stoicly in silence, like the TV shows us men are supposed to, whatever problems they have. Case in point, a while back I had seen several statistics that women accounted for 75% of all failed suicide attempts. When you look closely at the data of what those attempts were it's pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority were just desperate calls for help; they wanted to be stopped from actually committing suicide. While these actions definitely deserve to be taken seriously and help should be offered to anyone you might find in those situations, the truth is those who actually want to commit suicide usually succeed in doing so. And 7 out of 8 people who skip the cry for help and actually kill themselves are men. They learned to stop asking for help a long time ago.
So, it should be no surprise that men aren't telling you their relationship troubles. Meanwhile, it seems like whenever a woman wants to complain about a man people shove a mic in front of her and turn the TV camera's on. Women, whose social role includes being protected, have learned that the more they complain the more stuff people give them for free. So of course they're going to complain more. But if we look at actions instead of just words, doesn't the much talked about marraige strike men have been on sort of suggest maybe a lot of them aren't so happy with their relationships either even if they don't risk being blamed and shamed by talking to people, including you, about it?I think there's a pretty good chance if I knew your history I would disagree with you about women never having mistreated you in a relationship. I think there are a combination of psychological things that you do, which I've seen many men do and used to do to a degree myself before I started becoming educated by the side of gender issues you don't ever hear on TV, and these things are skewing your perception. Don't take this as me saying you're stupid, because I don't believe that at all, but rather that there are social pressures that require psychological adaptations by men if they're going to get along in society and most all men do them. I won't get into that here though because that would be better put in a thread of it's own.
Finally, why do I say Kelly's expressions are hurtful? Well, just switch all the gender words in them, (change all instances of men to women and vice versa), and you'll see exactly why I say that. In fact I recommed doing that every time you read anything about men and women. It makes the sexism and the hurtful propaganda more obvious. Those who will argue "well that would be different" either believe that men really aren't equal to women or that something men have done justifies them being treated in a sexist way. I disagree on both counts.Personal History is an important concept on the Warriors path. We are in the area of not just how we are treated by others but what we believe about ourselves, our self image, what feel we are worth and what we deserve. Our own perception of the world plays the largest part in what meaning we give to other peoples behavior. I was in love with a girl a while ago. I used to visit her, spend time with her, give her my undivided attention. A friend of mine believed that she was leading me on and treated me badly which is of course true. The twist however is that I wanted her to lead me on and who would not like a devoted person like me hanging on her every move? Subsequently I have learned that I made her nervous. She saw me as an overwhelming character who she did not know how to handle. One day after a long silence I told her that I loved her spontaneously, I definitely did not plan too. We sat closely on the bed, it was an intense moment and I could hardly look at her. I got up and left. The next day we spoke on the phone and I told her that I did not want to see her for a while. Cazy huh! I believed that she had rejected me and acted this part to perfection. I insistently believed that she did not, could not love me back, not because of her but because of me. My History has written that she was a **** for leading me on and rejecting me, but personal History is written by what we think happened. Personal History changes when our true feelings come to light. I did not even know I though she was a ****, the reality is that she has only ever been nice to me but like my teacher has said on many occasions if you cannot love yourself who else will? You have raised some really interesting points. I had no idea about the suicide stats in men and women. I know that our social climate gives us limiting beliefs and that this extends to men equally as women and that men suffer as much as women albeit in different ways. It seems to me like you see posts from people like kelly as nothing more than an attack on men. I take them as an opportunity for me to look at my behavior and see if any of what is said rings true. Funnily enough the one thing I have realized in the last few years is that I am more in control than I think and really do need to man up, for me admitting this is half the battle.Lastly I took your recommendation and selected three lines at random from Shamankas 1st post. Let me put it to you bluntly, when you are not dealing with a Consciously Awake man you are dealing with a crazy bastard, men with emotional problems and severe insecurity issues.Consciously Awake men are not your average men. They will not allow fear to prohibit them from looking into the fires of their own souls and own their emotional triggers, past wounds, flaws, mistakes, or pain.Some Women like to call men complainers, bastards, ignorant, wankers, idiots and whatever else you can muster, but let me be the first to tell you Mens feelings have an origin. men aren’t bastards or ignorant for no reason. Women are not crazy either. Women are tired of dealing with emotional and mental morons we can’t grow a relationship with.
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Here are those lines again...
Let me put it to you bluntly, when you are not dealing with a Consciously Awake man you are dealing with a crazy bastard, men with emotional problems and severe insecurity issues.
Consciously Awake men are not your average men. They will not allow fear to prohibit them from looking into the fires of their own souls and own their emotional triggers, past wounds, flaws, mistakes, or pain.
Some Women like to call men complainers, bastards, ignorant, wankers, idiots and whatever else you can muster, but let me be the first to tell you Mens feelings have an origin. men aren’t bastards or ignorant for no reason. Women are not crazy either. Women are tired of dealing with emotional and mental morons they can’t grow a relationship with.
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Maybe I have not understood what was written in an earlier post so maybe you can clarify what '' You go girl! I mean that. Go! Go away! Shoo! You ain't wanted here. Git! '' means?
I took this to mean that you do not want to hear views like Kelly's.
I interpret the meaning that she should take her views somewhere else? I don't want to hear views like Kelly's as I don't enjoy listening to people promoting bigotry. Its been a while so let me remind you of how I define, (and how I think its sensible to define), bigotry. Bigotry is the belief that certain people, based solely upon which group they were born into, are deserving of entitlements that other people, based solely on what group they were born into, have an obligation to meet those entitlements. It doesn't require hatred, which is what really makes it so dangerous. Owning slaves is bigotry even if you don't hate them.
In the article of Kelly's that I wrote that as a reply too, (the one I posted), she promotes men as having an obligation to pay for women on dates and uses all kinds of shaming techniques, (questioning the masculinity of any man who doesn't conform to the bigotry being her apparent favorite), in order to emasculate men into it. Like all the "consciously awake" women she speaks for, she wants "to be treated like a GODDESS" and reminds us that in her heirarchy "Women are the prize, men need to impress you" and that men who "want to be the prize" are "self-entitled little brat boys". Its all bigotry, and I don't care for it.
Kelly is a gender elitist, and I would say she is a narcissist. She wrote that "Narcissists need a dose of their own medicine
and since almost nothing gets them to awaken, a rude awakening is just
the kind of wake up call these women need." Well, she should have no issue with my shooing her away here then.
I'd like to stand by my comparison.Its you're right to stand by it, but everything in the comparison that demonstrates a business having an obligation to it's customers fails as a reason why I should treat the media-manufactured grievances of women that men are failing to meet all their birthright entitlements as legitimate.
keep those pesky customers happy.That assumes I want to do business with them and keep them from going elsewhere. I'm only interested in "customers" who value me as an equal and will treat me that way, even when that means going against social standards that benefit them at my expense.
hmmm, isn't a legitimate grievance one that is voiced? If I were to say "Littlepaw, I have a grievance against you for not having come over and painted my house last week" would you think that just because I said it that it was legitimate?
It surely is a problem if men are made to feel like they are to keep
their grievances to themselves but is it right to condemn women for
voicing theirs? I'll condemn anyone for promoting bigotry.
Lastly I took your recommendation and selected three lines at random No, it doesn't work that way. You have to do it to the entire thing to see the big picture. Sure you might be able to spot the sexism when reversing a line like...
"Emotionally stunted MEN are an epidemic in our culture."... to read "Emotionally stunted WOMEN are an epidemic in our culture", but you see so much more when you reverse a whole paragraph...
"A
lot of these emotionally stunted gals have awesome personalities, cause
they’re cool in every other way than how they choose to deal with their
emotions. ALL MEN get caught up with these types at one stage or
another until they wise up. WHY? Cause we aren’t living in a culture
where the emotional intelligence of women is predominately great and
sometimes it takes awhile to see people for who they actually are.
A
lot of men are so starved for connection that they make excuses and
then get roped into year long love affairs when WARNING SIGNS have been
flashing the entire time. It gets lonely out there for men when 9 out
of 10 gals have fractured female egos. The choices for men are not
exactly far reaching.
Listen
up lords, stop falling for a gal’s potential or what she could be. If
she has major emotional issues (like the ones I highlighted), you will be
baby siting, playing daddy, and living with a headache larger than
life! Unless she is willing to work her **** out without you nagging her
to woman up, or she has her own personal desire to grow herself, you will
suffer her shortcomings. I can guarantee that."
One last point. You didn't reverse everthing int the last quote you randomly chose. It should have read...
"Some Women like to call men complainers, bastards, ignorant, wankers,
idiots and whatever else you can muster, but let me be the first to tell
you Mens feelings have an origin. Men aren’t bastards or ignorant for
no reason. Men are not crazy either. Men are tired of dealing with
emotional and mental morons they can’t grow a relationship with."
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Julio,
Men treat women like ****!!!! Fact. What difficulty could you possibly have accepting this? Wishing that the world was free from gender equality and bigotry does not change the fact that the world is not like that at all! Your opinions will only work with people with similar opinions, screw everybody else.
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Littlepaw wrote:Julio,
Men treat women like ****!!!!
No need to get mad bro. It looks like we're getting to the root of some of our disagreements here.Littlepaw wrote:Fact. Surely you don't think writing that strengthened your argument? Littlepaw wrote: What difficulty could you possibly have accepting this? Perhaps the fact that I'm not blinded by gender-selective empathy?
I've seen a few men treat some women like ****. I've certainly seen more women treat men like ****. I've seen a lot of men treat women very well. I've seen very few women treat men very well. When men treat women like ****, usually it amounts to hurting their feelings. When women treat men like ****, usually it amounts to ruining them financially and/or taking their children away from them. Which would you rather experience?
Sometimes though, there is violence. Statistics show that men and women are equally guilty of domestic violence. Usually, domestic violence in a relationship is a two-way street. IOW, both parties in the relationship are guilty of it. Women are far more likely to use weapons, (including improvised weapons, like pots and pans), in domestic violence situations. If needed, I could go dig up those statistics for you.
How about cheating? Seems like just about everyone cheats nowadays. I imagine men and women are about equally guilty of cheating. If there is a disparity, I'd bet it would be women who cheat more just out of having more opportunities to do so. I'd also imagine that there are studies where they simply ask people how often they've cheated and I think women are more likely to lie on these studies; either out of rationalizations men are far less likely to make such as "well that one didn't count", or because they are taught to have political motivations to make women as a whole look better while very few men have such political motivations.
So in relationships it seems to me that most people are treating most people poorly in some way or another. This "women have the problems, men ARE the problems" view seems very one-sided and childish to me.Littlepaw wrote:Wishing that the world was free from gender equality and bigotry does
not change the fact that the world is not like that at all! Of course the world isn't like that. Its just that we seem to have a different idea of whom the majority of the bigotry is against.Littlepaw wrote:Your
opinions will only work with people with similar opinions, screw
everybody else.I don't even know what that means. I'm not screwing over anyone and there's no reason any open minded person might adopt similar opinions to my own. Nor are my opinions free from being modified if greater evidence is presented against them than for them. I'm not the one who says things like "Men are right and women are wrong!!! Fact.".
BTW, I notice your last reply here had nothing to do with my argument that Kelly was expressing bigotry but instead seemed like an attempted justification for the bigotry.
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