Questions for Lone Wolf

[Guest]

phe wrote:

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I will just respond to help with this, it appears a simple misunderstanding is going on with the particular words.

You are confusing the word "nahuatl" which means language and is the name of a langauge, with the nahuatl word "nahualli" which means "nagual" in that language. when exploring these things it helps to remember there are many different cultures, tribes and languages within mexico alone, let alone central america and then south america. For example there are 12 still existing mayan languages around the small area of south mexico, belize & guatemala. In south mexico the word "nagual" is very well known and understood. i cannot comment on northern parts of mexico as i haven't been there. the northern parts have very different indigenous people to the southern part where the maya are. The high density fusion of various tribes & languages in central america + interference of conquest with catholicism explains to me the widely varying cultural & individual interpretations of the extensive mythology & history of a being like 'quetzalcoatl'. Many of the indigenous beliefs were woven in with catholic mythologies on purpose to protect the old knowledge yet disguise it as catholic. this was a matter of life and death for many who followed their traditional beliefs.



love
Thanks for this Phe

[BarefootInTheSand]

Thanks Phe. With all due respect, however, I am still going to place my trust in the people I have spoken to from those various backgrounds over anything published on the internet...hope you can understand. I will also continue to contend that Castaneda did not use the word nahualli in his books and that the link between the two words is a human construction. While I am sure that you did your research, I doubt that you spoke to native speakers to verify if what you were reading was true or bore any resembelence to the truth. It might not seem like it, and you may feel that I am being nit picky, but there is a freedom in accepting responsibility for having made a false connection or attributing a meaning that wasn't there...having found that freedom I am now protective of my own tendency to slip into making false connections or giving meanings. I also wish to acknowledge Wolf's answer to the question about what the word meant to him which has nothing to do with anything else that has been raised in an attempt to sidetrack and derail the conversation. It seems to be a frequent problem in these forums and I wish I could find Lujan's response that I read the other day about the effect it has.

[Gonzo]

BarefootInTheSand
wrote:Thanks Phe. With all due respect,
however, I am still going to place my trust in the people I have
spoken to from those various backgrounds over anything published on the
internet...hope you can understand. I will also continue
to contend that Castaneda did not use the word nahualli in his books
and that the link between the two words is a human construction.
While I am sure that you did your research, I doubt that you spoke to
native speakers to verify if what you were reading was true or bore
any resembelence(sic) to the truth. It might not seem like it, and
you may feel that I am being nit picky, but there is a freedom in
accepting responsibility for having made a false connection or
attributing a meaning that wasn't there...having found that freedom I
am now protective of my own tendency to slip into making false
connections or giving meanings. I also wish to acknowledge Wolf's answer to the question
about what the word meant to him which has nothing to do with
anything else that has been raised in an attempt to sidetrack and
derail the conversation. It seems to be a frequent
problem in these forums and I wish I could find Lujan's response that
I read the other day about the effect it has.

All due
respect, the information noted re the definitions was not posted on
the internet, if you read the response. If not, it was “The study
of Nagualism was initiated by noted archaeologist, linguist and
ethnologist Daniel Garrison Brinton who published a treatise called
"Nagualism: A Study in Native-American Folklore and History"
which chronicled historical interpretations of the word and those who
practiced nagualism in Mexico in 1894 “. I have a copy if you would
like to read it.
The name of the thread is
“Questions for Lone Wolf”. It seems appropriate to me, in any
discussion, to define terms. Where has it been sidetracked or
derailed, except by your posts?
I stated at the
very beginning my suspicions. They have been satisfied. The fact
remains the current definition of “Nagual” comes from the works
of Castaneda, despite its earlier definition which don Juan himself
said was incorrect. The notion of four energetic compartments as
well is from Castaneda, and LW has essentially expanded upon that
definition in a rather plausible manner.

[phe]

barefoot wrote "Thanks Phe. With all due respect, however, I am still going to place my trust in the people I have spoken to from those various backgrounds over anything published on the internet...hope you can understand. I will also continue to contend that Castaneda did not use the word nahualli in his books and that the link between the two words is a human construction. While I am sure that you did your research, I doubt that you spoke to native speakers to verify if what you were reading was true or bore any resembelence to the truth. It might not seem like it, and you may feel that I am being nit picky, but there is a freedom in accepting responsibility for having made a false connection or attributing a meaning that wasn't there.."



false connection. interesting that you have inserted the idea that my experience is purely from the internet. I am writing from my experience when i was living in south mexico. I made the distinction that i do not know if the word nagual is recognised in north mexico because i have not been there (the north end). I have no idea what carlos wrote about nagual or nahualli. that doesn't matter in terms of the actual usage of the word nagual in its native lands.

lovelovelove

[BarefootInTheSand]

Phe, I read YOU on the internet. Thus, for ME, that constitutes information from the internet. I don't know YOU from Adam, however, I have shaken hands with, spoken to, looked in the eyes and eaten with the people I have asked. Wherever you got your knowledge I would still have to take YOUR word for it over MY experience...and this is something that I am just not going to do. I don't believe that anyone should do that. I meant nothing by it. Do you understand what I am saying?

[phe]

Aloha Barefoot, ok yes i understand now, you don't mean i got my info from the internet you doubted i spoke to native speakers, and i can clarify for you that yes i did. my work over there was with healers and native maya, to speak with them was the purpose of my time there. i agree with you to follow your own experiences. im not commenting on anything to do with castaneda's representation of the word, i thought i might help you to know that the word nagual, as derived from nahualli, is in regular use in the mayan territories where i lived. lovelovelove

[BarefootInTheSand]

DJ was a "yaqui" indian according to Castaneda...he was very clear about that. Their history is very similar to what Castaneda described in his books. They do substitute g for w (which I suspect contributes to the common pronounciation of the fictious word nagual). However, the yaqui word for sorcerer is "yee sisibome" There is a handy language guide here: http://wold.livingsources.org/vocabulary/32 Their spiritual beliefs, however, have no resembalance to anything Castaneda described.



My point in this conversation, however, has been to notice that although Wolf answered the question his answer has been disregarded. Gonzo wants to push his point that the only description is Castanedas. Phe wants to push the point that it has nothing to do with Castaneda or the but some other culture who has a word that starts with an N. My point was that the word was made up. Wolf shared what Wolf made up that it meant to him.



I get that you want to make me wrong...but I challenge you to find any word that wasn't made up.

[Guest]

BarefootInTheSand wrote:



I get that you want to make me wrong...but I challenge you to find any word that wasn't made up. (Imagine that is an eye rolling smiley) 
Ok, you are right, and nobody else needs to have an opinion.  Can we move on now?

[BarefootInTheSand]

phe wrote:Aloha Barefoot, ok yes i understand now, you don't mean i got my info from the internet you doubted i spoke to native speakers, and i can clarify for you that yes i did. my work over there was with healers and native maya, to speak with them was the purpose of my time there. i agree with you to follow your own experiences. im not commenting on anything to do with castaneda's representation of the word, i thought i might help you to know that the word nagual, as derived from nahualli, is in regular use in the mayan territories where i lived. lovelovelove
One further correction.  I did not doubt (or give credit to) your experience...because for me YOU are an internet source.  I am not going to overlay my own personal experience just because I read something on the internet (meaning your experience).

[BarefootInTheSand]

songbird wrote:Can we move on now?

Good question...my guess is since it seems no one could acknowledge Wolfs answer and instead continues to try to overlay their own meaning that communication in this forum will probably continue to go in circles.  I happen to agree with Lujan on this matter that these types of questions and answers detract from the participants continued growth.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Thus we come to a conclusion of some sorts as Barefoot states above. So if there are new questions for me your host please make them on a separate post/thread in this subforum: Tales Of Power.

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