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I had my doubts about the Lone Wolf thread - initially I had my doubts about Lone Wolf himself, having just finished engaging in battle with another "Nagual" on another forum. However, some lines from his first post got me. It was these, spoken to him by a respected elder:"You are a born medicine man and if you do not go crazy you will do much in the world"... "There have been many lone wolves in the world and now its your turn my son to be the lone wolf. Use your power for good and may you find peace but I highly doult(sic) it."
That leads me to this, a question for NLW - why the label of Nagual? The Elder said you were a born medicine man, or am I picking fly **** out of the pepper?
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Ah, been asked that before many times Gonzo. When I first came to ezboard, my purpose was to create a forum about the foreign installation and its study. Of course I had to create a user name. As I have been using "Lone Wolf" for most of my life I of course used it but added Nagual in the intent of " the nagual of Lone Wolf" meaning what I wrote came from my nagual aspect. Complicated? Made sense to me but I never wanted to "proclaim" myself as a nagual. Now I have no qualms in saying I am a nagual being for there is no other truth than that when being asked this question. Where people get hung up on the a person being a nagual is that they place way too much importance on it, looking rather to the description as a leader or even messiah. All nagual beings whether they have fins, four legs or two are born with a link to the nagual spirit that is evident at a young age or discovered later. Its knowing what it is all about that gives one meaning to their ah 'special talent.' Thus I seek not to convince you or anyone else and provide this forum for those on the path, in the study or who believe the tales of power.
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I've read the Castaneda books, and hours and hours of evaluations and opinions, many of which rage on still. As a result of that reading, I've always used the figure of don Juan as the epitome of Nagualhood. I think one of the finer of his attributes was his joy, and his sense of humor. (The statue of the fat little smiling Buddha comes to mind, reflecting that same sense.) Perhaps it is unfair to consider anyone accepting the label now of Nagual as needing to be like don Juan. I continue to dislike the label, perhaps for that reason. There ought to be something better, less restrictive, less narrow perhaps, but I can't think of one...keeper of The Information? ... he who points at the moon? ... the guy who sweeps the dust out of the monastery? Guru? Teacher? Savior? Buddha? Hmm.
What has finally dawned on me is regardless of the label, they are stuck with the thankless task of pouring piss down a rat hole. IOW, trying somehow to assist others on spiritual quests. That's really all that don Juan, et al, were doing...they were goddamned school teachers, and in dJ's case, with an especially thick headed student. They pull out the thorns and for their efforts, usually get bitten. A thankless task.
As the elder said to NLW, "...Use your power for good and may you find peace but I highly doubt it." Unlike don Juan, LW has always struck me with a rather profound and remote sadness, and perhaps now, I can see why.
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Yes agree in that Don Juan indeed set the bar for all of us/me/ those to come. The books were profound and as you say after "hours and hours of evaluations", they changed me. I believe we all see something in the tales we grab hold of. For me it was at last an answer to what I have seen and felt all my childhood and young teenage years when I first picked up "Tales of Power" and later was to find Separate Reality and Journey to Ixtlan. Others I assume read the books and do not believe a word and firmly deny existence of Don's Juan and Genaro. Still others read and believe portions and then read the other accounts such as Florinda's and Sustained Reaction's essays and believe Castaneda was a fraud or worse. However the depth and sheer descriptions of the works of Castaneda can be denied by no one and if one reads with a open mind and heart, they will go on a journey that will invoke laughter, fear, sadness, loss and the knowledge that there is more to this world then what we are taught or perceive as ordinary men.
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Interesting shift occuring, and perhaps I should leave well enough alone as it sounds like you two are agreeing to disagree...however, Wolf seemed to be describing a higher self or soul of himself and Gonzo a teacher with a duty to others as well as his expectation that as a teacher one should be buddha like in nature. Ironically, I haven't seen or felt any evidence that Wolf was attempting to act like a teacher...then again I haven't read the whole forum. I would agree, however, with Gonzo that the term "nagual" is probably not the best one to choose...it doesn't exist in the spanish language and there is a wider audience of people who are seeking their higher self or soul awareness that have not read Castaneda and a language that everyone would understand would have a greater benefit. I also get Wolf's point about using the name as a reminder to prop him to be in his higher self when posting...whatever works.
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BarefootInTheSand wrote: I would agree, however, with Gonzo that the term "nagual" is probably not the best one to choose...it doesn't exist in the spanish language and there is a wider audience of people who are seeking their higher self or soul awareness that have not read Castaneda and a language that everyone would understand would have a greater benefit. I also get Wolf's point about using the name as a reminder to prop him to be in his higher self when posting...whatever works.
Not only that, Barefoot, but I also wonder sometimes why folks would want to call themselves by that name. It would seem to be sort of a heavy cross to bear. Surely there are people that see the glamorous aspect of it, but when it comes down to it, being a leader and coaxing your own party of Warriors to Freedom's a bit of a job, wouldn't you say?
I like the idea of using the word as a reminder to prop oneself up, though.
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BarefootInTheSand wrote:Interesting shift occuring, and perhaps I should leave well enough alone as it sounds like you two are agreeing to disagree...however, Wolf seemed to be describing a higher self or soul of himself and Gonzo a teacher with a duty to others as well as his expectation that as a teacher one should be buddha like in nature. Ironically, I haven't seen or felt any evidence that Wolf was attempting to act like a teacher...then again I haven't read the whole forum. I would agree, however, with Gonzo that the term "nagual" is probably not the best one to choose...it doesn't exist in the spanish language and there is a wider audience of people who are seeking their higher self or soul awareness that have not read Castaneda and a language that everyone would understand would have a greater benefit. I also get Wolf's point about using the name as a reminder to prop him to be in his higher self when posting...whatever works.
To clarify a bit I wasn't suggesting LW be Buddhalike, rather that in a way they were stuck with a similar task: teaching. Each "teacher" has his own ways. Some manage to pontificate, draw disciples, etc, like Jesus, like Buddha, like Mohamed. Some manage to be written about, usually after they're dead, like some Zen masters. Some manage to remain obscure, somehow, and get scribes to get out their teachings as in the case of don Juan. LW does what he does primarily by hosting a forum that somehow draws a variety of folk. He doesn't pontificate, but he hosts...still, he's stuck with it.
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That said, a question for LW remains: what was the purpose in posting what is essentially an autobiography?
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I think too much importance and meaning is being given to what is essentially a made up word (it does not appear in any language). A heavy cross to bear, tasked with being a teacher, needing to lead a party...concepts you applied to a made up word out of a book and projected on Wolf.
Although Wolf's lower self will probably enjoy being recognized with so much significance, Wolf intended only to remind himself to stay in his highest...all the rest of this are projections you have placed upon him. The danger of this comes when your projections become more real to you than Wolf's statement and override the truth.
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I like this last post by Barefoot.Thanks. As for my thread about myself, I have created a lot of subforums here with the membership in mind such as the Zen forum which is not something I am into. I decided a long time ago to have my own forum, my little subforum and received many requests for my story.So over the years I have written it in parts and in my subforum is all.
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BarefootInTheSand wrote:I think too much importance and meaning is being given to what is essentially a made up word (it does not appear in any language). A heavy cross to bear, tasked with being a teacher, needing to lead a party...concepts you applied to a made up word out of a book and projected on Wolf.
Although Wolf's lower self will probably enjoy being recognized with so much significance, Wolf intended only to remind himself to stay in his highest...all the rest of this are projections you have placed upon him. The danger of this comes when your projections become more real to you than Wolf's statement and override the truth.
The origin of the word (Nagual) is irrelevant. It was defined in the works of Castaneda, and bears little resemblance to its original definition put forth in an old sociological paper. We deal here, now, with the definition as presented in CC. Therefore, anyone accepting the title of Nagual is going to be compared to the character of don Juan, don Genaro, Julian, Silvio Manuel, et al. LW has said nothing I'm aware of re leading a party. He has implied he has a role as a teacher, however...perhaps the word guide is better.
I'm projecting nothing. I'm reacting only to his own proclamations.
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The origin may not be important in your view, however, perhaps should be as you are projecting your conjuration of the meaning of the word onto someone while disregarding his statement about what it meant to him. In other words, you are imposing your invented reality over his invented reality.
In the books, if you remember, Castaneda was also considered a nagual...bumbling fool as he was. He also led people, poorly. However, this is not what DJ supposedly meant when he used an invented word...he was talking about compartments of one's energy body...the books were clear about this being something that some had and some did not.
Gonzo sez: "I am reacting only to his own proclamations." When actually you ignored his proclamations and what you are reacting to is your own beliefs in a moment when life is presenting you a contracdiction.
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In reflection we could invent a new word perhaps Guidual or even Teachual in reference to teachers and guides. I have no qualms being a guide and done so many many times through the years with an assortment of seekers and warriors. The word nagual I believe reflects an older word nahual which was used for shapechangers and sorcerers in toltec history. As CC was fluent in spanish I would be confident he realized his own changing of the word's spelling in his texts. However, if I used the name Nahual Lone Wolf I still believe we would be having this conversation.
An as for spiderwoman's post, "why would some folks call themselves that name?" Its not like that name is on my mail box or those who know me personally call me NLW, this name was created for use here only in this forum and other yuku/ezboard forums in the past. Welcome to the conversation.
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Here is the point of contention ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl), there isn't a word in the ancient languages that resembles nagual for a shapeshifter. There are other words for that, but they bear no resemblance to the word nagual or any of its variants. Same for Spanish and Arizona's Toltec indiginious peoples. The word, and the attempts to tie it in with other words, are familiar only to those who have read Castaneda or his offshoots. Outside of that context the word is meaningless...technically speaking. I have nothing against making up a word and giving it meaning or using it for a prop to help one's self out, however, it seems pointless to agrue over something that isn't real to begin with. Thank you, I get the sense that this conversation is an unending one.
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Can we all perhaps agree that words are only attempts at a description, and mean nothing of themselves. A series of grunts & clicks to which we have assigned meaning. So what?
NLW has posted some of his story, and kudos to him for doing so. In this cyberworld where every movement and every nuance must seemingly be analyzed to death, it's no wonder that genuine naguals, nahuals, nahuatls, witches, warriors, sorcerers, brujos, dreamers, stalkers, seekers, teachers, apprentices, gurus, mentors, benefactors and all the other beings living behind those wordy descriptions have all but vanished, leaving only the don Juannabes and other pseudo-beings hiding behind avatars and false identities ad nauseam *ahem*. So... if Wolf has the courage to put himself and his story out there, more power to him, and why do we care WHAT he calls himself? Does it matter? Really? If he called himself a Chevy or a monkey wrench, would it make any difference?
What matters is not the words but the worlds behind the words. We can argue about the labels, which is what the foreign installation aims for (distraction, dissipation, diversion), or we can boldly go beyond the descriptions and enter the experience. I, for one, am weary of the nit-picking, so I'll direct my next question to NLW in the hopes of redirecting this conversation.
Wolf... since the subject was raised about the energy compartments of a nagual-being, I'm curious as to your experience in this regard. I feel I was simply born this way. What about you? And even if one is born this way, what do you perceive that might mean, if anything? Do you see it as just a fluke of nature, just as some are born with blue eyes and others with brown? Is it the result of some quantum time entanglement wherein the double comes into this life with us when we are born? I'd be interested in your perspective on this. What MADE you a nagual/double-being?
Thanks,
QS
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Is it just me, or does this conversation seem to have taken a turn for the crazy to anyone else as well?
Wolf made no claim about energy compartments. Am I the only one who read his words?
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BarefootInTheSand wrote:
Is it just me, or does this conversation seem to have taken a turn for the crazy to anyone else as well?
Wolf made no claim about energy compartments. Am I the only one who read his words?Dear ForestWolf, Matt, River, John Spirit Warrior, Digital Noir, et al.
Thanks for responding to the prod. Heh. There you go again, diverting the energy away from the subject at hand. So, yes, I knew you would hop up squawking if I pushed that button, and I'm happy not to be disappointed. You are nothing, if not predictable.
Actually YOU are the one who mentioned energy compartments, and I was asking Wolf's opinion on that, since it is discussed extensively in Castaneda. You see, I'm actually interested in what NLW has to say, whereas it seems you are primarily interested in creating yet another intrigue and injecting yourself as the Agent Smith on duty. Frankly, I'd ignore you, but when I see you starting to escalate the same games you've played for years, there comes a point when I have to rat you out for who you are and what you are attempting to do.
So, yes, the conversation took a turn for the crazy the moment YOU came on board. Years ago. *rolls eyes*
Do you HONESTLY think anyone believes you are a "gay man"? Next thing you know, you'll be dying of malaria while ForestWolf combs your hair in the nuthouse where the brain tumor killed poor John Spirit Warrior. *yawns* There are enough REAL *seers* on this forum to know **** from shinola, so... game over.
Do they pay you to work for the foreign installation, or is it something you do as a diligent volunteer?
Sorry, sorry, love me, love me. (Where have I heard that before?)
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BarefootInTheSand wrote:
Wth?
Ah, the pretense of ignorance, the protest of innocence.
Truly amusing.
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excuse me, I don't usually read this forum, today i ended up here following a link. i probably wont be around to reply further, but if i may offer some linguistic etymology here it is.
BarefootinSand: The reason why your wikipedia article showed nothing is because you wrote "nahuatl)," instead of writing nahuatl. Focus your attention. The correct link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl
The word nagual comes from the Nahuatl word nahualli (Nagual & Nahualli are both pronounced na'wal)
The study of Nagualism was initiated by noted archaeologist, linguist and ethnologist Daniel Garrison Brinton who published a treatise called "Nagualism: A Study in Native-American Folklore and History" which chronicled historical interpretations of the word and those who practiced nagualism in Mexico in 1894. He identified the different beliefs associated with nagualism in some modern Mexican communities such as the Mixes, the Nahuas, the Zapotecs and Mixtecs.
Subsequently many studies have described Nagualism in many different Mesoamerican cultures such as the Zoques,the Jakaltek Maya, the K'iche', the Q'eqchi' and the Tzeltal.
Other nahuatl words have become common in english, via spanish, like avocado (from Nahuatl ahuacatl).
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Hi Phe, thank you. I spent some time looking for the link I offered because there is a lot of misinformation on the internet and many sites build off the misinformation. However, by asking around the people you know who are natives from Mexico or even the last remains of the Toltec tribe in Arizona you will find that they are unaware of any word sounding anything like that relating to shamans, witches, seers or anyone with special powers. The word means "language" and I am willing to take the people who I asked word for it.
Another example of this, and again you should ask around and verify this yourself, is that Mexican natives have a very different understanding of quazicotal (sp?) that is usually depicted as a winged serpent eating itself. This is the kind of misinformation that gets spread and others use to build on. However, Mexican natives consider quazicotal to have been a man, similar to Jesus, who came over a hill and imparted knowledge and left promising to return one day.
It is understandable that one may like to hold onto their inventions like how Gonzo couldn't really see through to Wolf's words...this has become an ingrained habit that the path encourages us to break free of.
Thank you Wolf about your point of the uselessness of entering into this discussion I think I will heed your advice as it echoes something written on another forum about not even entertaining the kind of question Gonzo posed as it seeks to derail and distract one from their growth. Wise words imho. I appreciated your response, however, about using it to remind yourself...something I will do more of in the future.
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BarefootInTheSand wrote:Hi Phe, thank you. I spent some time looking for the link I offered because there is a lot of misinformation on the internet and many sites build off the misinformation. However, by asking around the people you know who are natives from Mexico or even the last remains of the Toltec tribe in Arizona you will find that they are unaware of any word sounding anything like that relating to shamans, witches, seers or anyone with special powers. The word means "language" and I am willing to take the people who I asked word for it.
Another example of this, and again you should ask around and verify this yourself, is that Mexican natives have a very different understanding of quazicotal (sp?) that is usually depicted as a winged serpent eating itself. This is the kind of misinformation that gets spread and others use to build on. However, Mexican natives consider quazicotal to have been a man, similar to Jesus, who came over a hill and imparted knowledge and left promising to return one day.
It is understandable that one may like to hold onto their inventions like how Gonzo couldn't really see through to Wolf's words...this has become an ingrained habit that the path encourages us to break free of.
Thank you Wolf about your point of the uselessness of entering into this discussion I think I will heed your advice as it echoes something written on another forum about not even entertaining the kind of question Gonzo posed as it seeks to derail and distract one from their growth. Wise words imho. I appreciated your response, however, about using it to remind yourself...something I will do more of in the future.
Far be it from me to distract true seekers from their growth. Helluva thing if they are challenged to think about what they've been told.
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Barefoot wrote:
Hi Phe, thank you. I spent some time looking for the link I offered because there is a lot of misinformation on the internet and many sites build off the misinformation. However, by asking around the people you know who are natives from Mexico or even the last remains of the Toltec tribe in Arizona you will find that they are unaware of any word sounding anything like that relating to shamans, witches, seers or anyone with special powers. The word means "language" and I am willing to take the people who I asked word for it.
Another example of this, and again you should ask around and verify this yourself, is that Mexican natives have a very different understanding of quazicotal (sp?) that is usually depicted as a winged serpent eating itself. This is the kind of misinformation that gets spread and others use to build on. However, Mexican natives consider quazicotal to have been a man, similar to Jesus, who came over a hill and imparted knowledge and left promising to return one day.
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I will just respond to help with this, it appears a simple misunderstanding is going on with the particular words.
You are confusing the word "nahuatl" which means language and is the name of a langauge, with the nahuatl word "nahualli" which means "nagual" in that language. when exploring these things it helps to remember there are many different cultures, tribes and languages within mexico alone, let alone central america and then south america. For example there are 12 still existing mayan languages around the small area of south mexico, belize & guatemala. In south mexico the word "nagual" is very well known and understood. i cannot comment on northern parts of mexico as i haven't been there. the northern parts have very different indigenous people to the southern part where the maya are. The high density fusion of various tribes & languages in central america + interference of conquest with catholicism explains to me the widely varying cultural & individual interpretations of the extensive mythology & history of a being like 'quetzalcoatl'. Many of the indigenous beliefs were woven in with catholic mythologies on purpose to protect the old knowledge yet disguise it as catholic. this was a matter of life and death for many who followed their traditional beliefs.
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