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Nu Lang wrote:You are right, common man is not concerned with power spots and if you were to talk to a person about it, they may laugh in your face, call you crazy, get scared, etc.
When I stared talking to my "normal friends" about some of this stuff, they, not a single one, made fun of me. They would just shut up and listen (ask a question or two). The atmosphere shifts into attention, I feel them listening (I feel sometimes that something in them is listening more than usually, the part that is often just off, and that another part is sometimes unsure, insecure, losing ground a bit). Then they go back into their worlds (sometimes it is like a big contrast, we finish this topic and there is like a split and they reach and try to bring the continuity of the usual back and for a few seconds there is silence till they switch), but the interest/attention has been there for that moment. Other times it fluidly merges with another normal topic (but I still feel the split happening, like something breathes out, as if in relief, when it reaches common ground). It is interesting. It is very rare of course that something like this happens, because I am not the one to open such subjects on my own. But if somebody asks then I answer - I do not believe in keeping secrets/knowledge to myself. Everyone deserves a chance.
I think the key to having people listen to you is to talk about such stuff only when you feel it is coming from them, either curiosity (but not the most shallow one, the one where the mind is just seeking stuff to babble about) or deeper interest, both are fine, but one needs to kind of regulate what one says. What exactly and how much, not to talk too much. Just the right amount. It is not a matter of controlling anything though, apart from our own selves, our perception of what is going on. We need to be fully tuned in. It is also most important to be aware of a certain margin in all things. When the cup is full so to speak (when the spirit is out of the speech, when something changes) then not to keep pouring into it afterwards, to feel when this moment is passing and changing into something else and respect that (I sometimes find it harder to do /see this in a discussion forum, because it is not a real time discussion, the time and space are different here, different pace).
Hence we need to take care of how we interact with people, but in no way am I saying that we should indulge weakness. We should just see it and work with it, or around it, if possible. Sometimes there is some form of love involved. Love for the Spirit, love for the spirit of the other, even if the person is not close to us (or even if we don't want anything to do with the person). Or love for our own selves, that we can open doors for other people if we allow ourselves to. We allow ourselves to be used / of use to something beyond us. And we can serve this purpose in extraordinary ways. Someone can see us on the bus and the person's life is changed by it (we might not even notice). The world is magical and we are magical beings.
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Yes, I agree with you actually. We must approach everyone with an open heart and open mind. My mention of power spots is only to say that its not considered "accepted" talk the way scientific principles are. Yet scientific principles are limited by comparison to power spots.
I was thinking this the other day. That when out in public, in a crowd lets say...is everyone "one of the masses"? My answer was no, not to me. When I am out in public, I am seeking the nagual spark in others. Everyone I approach to talk, or who approaches me is potentially linked with the nagual and I am looking for it, hoping for it. I'd rather it be this case, and am always exhilarated when I have a magical interaction with someone, even if I don't know them, the link is evident.
The terms 'masses' and 'common' or 'average' are basically used for discussion purposes to refer to events that transpired for example and also useful that, when recognized in interaction, it helps put things in perspective in controlled folly. Such as, if one's attention is linked with a collective ap position, you could say that person tends to follow the mass perception, and it would not be untrue.
In truth no one is exactly the same or a hopeless member of a mass because always one is able to exercise their will. It depends on awareness and power.
But I want to go back to the term "collective ap position" for a minute...what would that be? Well, one example of this is the belief that science is the final word on how our reality is constructed at a core level. Many people think this way, this is a collective ap position in our current times. 600 years ago, it was religion, not science that was the collective position and scientifically inclined people were considered rebels and outcasts.
Its this mass acceptance that makes it tedious to offer alternate views on perception to those who adhere to the momentum of established beliefs. There is no need to try or not try with them though. Each situation will inform a sorcerer how to proceed if s/he is open to power. Theres no talk of leaving anyone behind. Power decides anyway. It decides each within everyone, at the most personal level...our awareness.
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Nice posts Watergaze and Nu Lang.
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i love the thread. i have a question though..are the two following quotes from two different stances?
"because always one is able to exercise their will"
from the individual?
"Each situation will inform a sorcerer how to proceed if s/he is open to power."
from the collective?
and how is it that you can be both, at the same time..ie if you have merged with the collective..how do you become individualised again?
shamanka xx
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"because always one is able to exercise their will"
By this I meant the will of power which has descended upon the life of a warrior, thus operates through the warrior as a guiding force. Our task is being open to it and clearing away any hurdles.
We/I don't HAVE to speak in these terms, however for clarity sake I find it useful to separate personal and impersonal attention, since both are valid and vital in cooperation.
If you forgot you were Shamanka, there would be no Shamanka, if I forgot I was Nu Lang, there would be no Nu Lang. But within these contours we know power outside and within. Spirit is all there is yes, but it dances a dance of illusion to know itself through individual parts meeting one another.
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Nu Lang wrote:Such as, if one's attention is linked with a collective ap position, you could say that person tends to follow the mass perception, and it would not be untrue.
Actually the thinking of it as an AP is quite helpful. I did not label it like that for myself, though it logically comes from what I think and know (and I knew it before you said it, but did not work with it like that in language). In this sense we all are, or can be the "common man." Makes it quite scary and emphasizes the importance of being able to hold a more magical AP position. This is also why it is helpful to interact with fellow sorcerers..
It is our preconceptions that are of the realm of the "common man." Suspending judgment is very important.
But, sadly, I see it on myself that it also might be a kind of laziness. Because sometimes I just do not bother to judge (and I am not sure it is good then), maybe some things are best judged. I would like to hear some thoughts on this, if you or anyone else has some regarding this topic.
Nu Land wrote:But I want to go back to the term "collective ap position" for a minute...what would that be? Well, one example of this is the belief that science is the final word on how our reality is constructed at a core level. Many people think this way, this is a collective ap position in our current times. 600 years ago, it was religion, not science that was the collective position and scientifically inclined people were considered rebels and outcasts.
Surely science is part of the common AP today, but that is not all there is to it. Also, religion is not out of the picture either, it just somehow adapted to be along science, that is all (but I know what you meant, and I agree).
The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).
I am starting to think that the AP shift happening now closer to a more pure type of spirituality, the type of know yourself and evolve your consciousness kind of thing, is really something that the society is starting to realize, and this is the big shift from the state before. Before it was only a few people, the select, the weird, who went on paths of self discovery in our society. The general population was numb. Now a lot of people start to feel the need to it, although they do not know how to go about it or how to achieve it. I have not lived in the past, so I do not know if these kind of generalization are truth or just our perception of history, but I feel that a change is occurring in the direction that I speak of nevertheless. Somehow 'common' AP is becoming more close to the sorcerer’s. The sorcerer's AP is becoming more widespread. Which is truly wonderful. Though I am aware that the mainstream society still has a long way to go, the change is occurring.
Well having said all this, I am trying to find some resulting helpful result that would open up some kind of a way here.. If I look at it as working with the AP then for me this is always about fluidity and grounding. This would nicely lead into an answer to Shamanka:
”shamanka” wrote:and how is it that you can be both, at the same time..ie if you have merged with the collective..how do you become individualised again?
I think you can only merge with the collective in two ways, logically too. You either do it unconsciously, you are just pulled by the masses, or you do it consciously for some reason. Sometimes the collective AP might not be desirable, but if a sorcerer needs to do it, then how does he get out, provided he is impeccable and merges with all his being with that AP?
Once we have merged and are completely in the collective, how do we individualize again? I think this is where we have to have the pull from the other side so to speak. I think this triggers a sort of remembering, which brings us out of the state. I am not sure if I can call this pull will, it might be, would make sense, but am not so set on/sure of this yet. Because the way I use the term will is for something else. And this other type of pull I am inclined to call the pull of my self, or something to that effect .
But there are also times when a collective AP is desirable, as in a sorceric/shamanic circle. Here we need to find ourselves in that AP. So there are two directions. One is to remember who we are and come back to ourselves from before. The other is to bring ourselves, the parts that can make the shift (which cleanses us of heavier stuff), to the new position, which also entails a certain form remembering.
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speak from your knowing NU Lang..no reason to seperate..that is not clarity..it is not the truth. There is no 'shamanka' that is correct.....there are no individual parts once aligned and integrated and then dropped.
there is no inside/outside..you know all this...why do you find it useful? my suggestion is not to play a self defined role.....give it up and just be, the 'spirits will' in action...
forget the 'shamanka' and forget the 'Nu lang' and then there are no hurdles...just empty vessels of no self..walking the path of freedom..which is the power of the nagual.
Naguals have no individual will to exert when they become part of the collective..they express the collectives requirement for remembering at this level..this becomes the 'I' and is guided in expression, by those seeking the collective for themselves.
it has no flavour of its own, to be owned..it is a flow that is constant, fluid and limitless. the only intent required, is when you are remembering, that, you are aligned to the bigger picture in the first place. The rest is just allowing....
let the receiver of your knowing resonate through all levels of consciousness and anchor your unification though every consciousness thread you already are..
xx
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Nice posts Watergaze about the collective ap. The ap's available to mankind are many and the range goes from dark to light if there was a scale, of course we can access other life form ap's as well. Not having ones ap fixed is the first challenge but it does have some drawbacks when the foreign installation influences the movements.
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Hi all,
watergaze wrote,
""The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).""
Shamanka wrote,
""speak from your knowing NU Lang..no reason to seperate..that is not clarity..it is not the truth. There is no 'shamanka' that is correct.....there are no individual parts once aligned and integrated and then dropped.
there is no inside/outside..you know all this...why do you find it useful? my suggestion is not to play a self defined role.....give it up and just be, the 'spirits will' in action...
forget the 'shamanka' and forget the 'Nu lang' and then there are no hurdles...just empty vessels of no self..walking the path of freedom..which is the power of the nagual.""
Don Juan covered this in the idea of a "tonal" and a "tonal of the times." The cultural and scientific and collective unconscious of the society we live in has a lot to do with our individual tonals. Some societies for instance believe in inorganic beings and spirit possessions and communicating with relatives who have died. Some do not. But all societies agree on the world of matter we are surrounded by. If we hit ourselves in the head with a stick or a hammer or a laptop computer it is still going to hurt.
It is only by dealing with our personal "tonal" will we we get to the point of being able to walk through walls or on water.
Both ideas are limitations or prisons of a sort but the collective is easier to get out of than the personal tonal.
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watergaze wrote:Nu Lang wrote:Such as, if one's attention is linked with a collective ap position, you could say that person tends to follow the mass perception, and it would not be untrue.
Actually the thinking of it as an AP is quite helpful. I did not label it like that for myself, though it logically comes from what I think and know (and I knew it before you said it, but did not work with it like that in language). In this sense we all are, or can be the "common man." Makes it quite scary and emphasizes the importance of being able to hold a more magical AP position. This is also why it is helpful to interact with fellow sorcerers..
It is our preconceptions that are of the realm of the "common man." Suspending judgment is very important.
But, sadly, I see it on myself that it also might be a kind of laziness. Because sometimes I just do not bother to judge (and I am not sure it is good then), maybe some things are best judged. I would like to hear some thoughts on this, if you or anyone else has some regarding this topic.
Nu Land wrote:But I want to go back to the term "collective ap position" for a minute...what would that be? Well, one example of this is the belief that science is the final word on how our reality is constructed at a core level. Many people think this way, this is a collective ap position in our current times. 600 years ago, it was religion, not science that was the collective position and scientifically inclined people were considered rebels and outcasts.
Surely science is part of the common AP today, but that is not all there is to it. Also, religion is not out of the picture either, it just somehow adapted to be along science, that is all (but I know what you meant, and I agree).
The common AP position has to do with the way society is. Society takes what it can use, but its general intent and aim is the same whether the dominant was science or religion. Lives of common men did not change that much (it does not matter much to the man plowing the field if it is the priest telling him how the world is or if it is a scientist). So, I am inclined to think it is about holding the AP/intent of the society we live in. Because the AP of the indigenous population, when living in a secluded spot (not polluted by our western culture) was different. And they have different societal structure, different concepts/perception of time for example, their ‘common’ man is different from ours.
However it is not possible to disregard the society we live in. Even DJ and shamans of today have to somehow make their peace with the culture they live in (for example they went to mass/church).
I am starting to think that the AP shift happening now closer to a more pure type of spirituality, the type of know yourself and evolve your consciousness kind of thing, is really something that the society is starting to realize, and this is the big shift from the state before. Before it was only a few people, the select, the weird, who went on paths of self discovery in our society. The general population was numb. Now a lot of people start to feel the need to it, although they do not know how to go about it or how to achieve it. I have not lived in the past, so I do not know if these kind of generalization are truth or just our perception of history, but I feel that a change is occurring in the direction that I speak of nevertheless. Somehow 'common' AP is becoming more close to the sorcerer’s. The sorcerer's AP is becoming more widespread. Which is truly wonderful. Though I am aware that the mainstream society still has a long way to go, the change is occurring.
Well having said all this, I am trying to find some resulting helpful result that would open up some kind of a way here.. If I look at it as working with the AP then for me this is always about fluidity and grounding. This would nicely lead into an answer to Shamanka:
”shamanka” wrote:and how is it that you can be both, at the same time..ie if you have merged with the collective..how do you become individualised again?
I think you can only merge with the collective in two ways, logically too. You either do it unconsciously, you are just pulled by the masses, or you do it consciously for some reason. Sometimes the collective AP might not be desirable, but if a sorcerer needs to do it, then how does he get out, provided he is impeccable and merges with all his being with that AP?
Once we have merged and are completely in the collective, how do we individualize again? I think this is where we have to have the pull from the other side so to speak. I think this triggers a sort of remembering, which brings us out of the state. I am not sure if I can call this pull will, it might be, would make sense, but am not so set on/sure of this yet. Because the way I use the term will is for something else. And this other type of pull I am inclined to call the pull of my self, or something to that effect .
But there are also times when a collective AP is desirable, as in a sorceric/shamanic circle. Here we need to find ourselves in that AP. So there are two directions. One is to remember who we are and come back to ourselves from before. The other is to bring ourselves, the parts that can make the shift (which cleanses us of heavier stuff), to the new position, which also entails a certain form remembering.Yes, a great post watergaze, to follow up on what I said and point out more dimensions to it. I agree with what Wolf pointed out you emphasized which is there is not simply a singular collective, but rather a range. And so as sorcerers we can shift and thus choose, where as non sorcerers would not be likely aware of this option. Being a sorcerer doing this, its important to curtail self importance (this would rid of judgements you mentioned about)lest the shifts be influenced by the foreign installation. The ap can be compared to different parts on earth, some locations we would not want to visit.
"Sometimes the collective AP might not be desirable, but if a sorcerer
needs to do it, then how does he get out, provided he is impeccable and
merges with all his being with that AP?"
Its our individuality and its link with the nagual (these two combined become personal power) that is this cooperative navigational system. That means we are always aware of the nature of awareness itself and its interplay of individual and collective upon us and others. So if a sorcerer is practicing controlled folly, which is what I think you were referring to above, and merges with a collective position, you asked how does he get out of that merging. My answer would be that he never completely merged, only enough to express the sentiment of that position, however his personal power kept him free from annihilation (of his sorcerer awareness) into that collective.
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"I am starting to think that the AP shift happening now closer to a more pure type of spirituality, the type of know yourself and evolve your consciousness kind of thing, is really something that the society is starting to realize, and this is the big shift from the state before. Before it was only a few people, the select, the weird, who went on paths of self discovery in our society. The general population was numb. Now a lot of people start to feel the need to it, although they do not know how to go about it or how to achieve it. I have not lived in the past, so I do not know if these kind of generalization are truth or just our perception of history, but I feel that a change is occurring in the direction that I speak of nevertheless. Somehow 'common' AP is becoming more close to the sorcerer’s. The sorcerer's AP is becoming more widespread. Which is truly wonderful. Though I am aware that the mainstream society still has a long way to go, the change is occurring." Watergaze
Just a quick mention...that recently I was observing that something occurred in the 1960s that caused a shift, along the lines of what you say here. It was called flower power and other names...certainly a very tangible shift towards magical beingness. This is also the decade Carlos was apprentice to DJ...interesting... and disseminating the knowledge to public.
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“Bob May” wrote  on Juan covered this in the idea of a "tonal" and a "tonal of the times." The cultural and scientific and collective unconscious of the society we live in has a lot to do with our individual tonals. Some societies for instance believe in inorganic beings and spirit possessions and communicating with relatives who have died. Some do not. But all societies agree on the world of matter we are surrounded by. If we hit ourselves in the head with a stick or a hammer or a laptop computer it is still going to hurt.
It is only by dealing with our personal "tonal" will we we get to the point of being able to walk through walls or on water.
Both ideas are limitations or prisons of a sort but the collective is easier to get out of than the personal tonal.
I agree that mankind has something that we generally agree upon. Like a set of rules of the reality world. I do not know if what I am about to say is humbug, but I read from a woman visiting some monastery or something of that kind in Asia, do not know if Taoist or Buddhist, that she was passing by a classroom where they were teaching children and that some were actually not standing on the ground (levitating). Not sure how true this account is, but I am going to work with that a bit for discussions sake at least, because I could see something like that as being true. This would mean that we are able to learn in a different way. But it still must be hard to go against all the other people who believe gravity is solid, so to speak. Because so much energy goes into keeping gravity real. So, according to what you say that would be in the part of deleting our personal tonal. And once we delete the personal tonal then it will not be difficult.
Well, collective is easier to get out of, you say, but isn’t it the collective that is in the personal that we need to get rid of in order to walk on water? In this sense it is the collective that made the personal. So deleting the personal is actually deleting the collective, and remembering the purest form. Sorry to twist it like this, I kind of enjoy twisting ideas around to see what I get .
Let me lead my example of levitating somewhere else as well though. That maybe it is easier to get out of the clutches of the collective matrix in some secluded spots. In the mountains where the density of the population is scarce one can feel a sort of lightening of the hm wanted to say spirit, but not sure, maybe attention or better consciousness, maybe something else, but it is a shift one realizes if one stays there long enough. Maybe this is why it was a functional path to be a hermit and thus attain enlightenment. If one gets down from these places then one might feel the change when arriving at civilization .
But there is another thing involved. It is not as it might seem that it is easier to live up there (so to speak), actually it takes more discipline than living down here. Only consciousness that is at a certain level can survive there for long periods of time (this link to consciousness is not my own, but I agree with it). it is inhuman environment to a big extent, depends where exactly we are. but it is a kind of purity as well. Also, for sake of precision I will add that different places might have slight differences. And this might not only apply to mountains, but sadly there is not much left where the human has not spread where I am at and where it is allowed to live, or where I have visited .
Nu Lang wrote:Just a quick mention...that recently I was observing that something occurred in the 1960s that caused a shift, along the lines of what you say here. It was called flower power and other names...certainly a very tangible shift towards magical beingness. This is also the decade Carlos was apprentice to DJ...interesting... and disseminating the knowledge to public.
Makes sense . So it all started with flower power, how nice .
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”LoneWolf” wrote:Not having ones ap fixed is the first challenge but it does have some drawbacks when the foreign installation influences the movements.
Not having a fixed AP… Yes, but there has to be some other element involved for it to be good. Not sure what this element is, wondering if it could not be called sobriety, or just some form of control, or hm awareness of it happening, so that one can also ‘unhappen’ it, if needed.
Because I remember from my earlier days, when I could not control the AP movement as I can now (and even now it basically depends how hard or easy or natural it is to get to a position) that at that time it was often quite uncomfortable. It would shift somewhere and for some moment, day even, I would be impacted. Many times it was magical, made the moment magical, but often it would get in my way if I wanted to focus on something else. To have a somewhat looser AP, in this sense, and not being able to fix it where you wish, to jump to somewhere else with both feet and ground yourself on the ground there… well if one cannot, then I would not see it as such a practical thing.
I remember there was a time when I was in a somewhat in-between state, not being able to bring myself wholly into a required situation. This might not just have to do with fixing the AP, but also with some kind of feel for oneself, what all one needs to take to the desired spot (in order to feel one is completely there). Because as I started to get a better feel and understanding of myself it got better.
I would go with the idea that I had difficulty to move to the other position and stayed in some in betweenness not because of a lack of fluidity, but because of a lack of control and because of an inability to fully move to the desired spot. And that I did not know how to ground myself in that new spot and kept "flying off". Because if I got to a spot naturally then I was complete, but if I wanted to change it somewhere on my own it was very hard.
I am actually quite sensitive to when the AP starts to wiggle, I feel it often for example when I am ill and with this I often know if an illness is coming. But it also happens in other type of situations. Maybe this is not precisely the AP what I am talking about here (if we take AP to be outside the physical body, I never really looked into where exactly it is, I just remember that the blow DJ was giving to CC to dislocate his AP was not a real physical blow), because I feel it physically (although I could also say it goes both ways), but somehow I see it connected, because then I change focus. And it also makes sense that the AP would be a bit looser when we are ill, at those times it is known changing levels of perception is very easy.
”Nu Lang” wrote: And so as sorcerers we can shift and thus choose, where as non sorcerers would not be likely aware of this option. Being a sorcerer doing this, its important to curtail self importance (this would rid of judgements you mentioned about)lest the shifts be influenced by the foreign installation. The ap can be compared to different parts on earth, some locations we would not want to visit.
Nice linking suspending judgment with preventing shifts influenced by the FI (I am turning this around again). Yes, I could see a range where that applies; I am thinking if that is all it takes to prevent it. Somehow seems too easy . This surely is true, partially, and then there is another part. A different way that the FI can do this, some other lever that it can use. Thinking what it might be… hm are preconceptions basically judgments? They indeed are, just that we are less aware of them, because a lot of them got learned with the whole matrix. Interesting… And of course, there are other forms of self importance than just the thinking that one knows it all and can judge it all. But it is a good link that getting rid of self importance would rid us of judgments, wonder if it would rid us of preconceptions as well, how do you see this?
”Nu Lang” wrote:"Sometimes the collective AP might not be desirable, but if a sorcerer needs to do it, then how does he get out, provided he is impeccable and merges with all his being with that AP?"
Its our individuality and its link with the nagual (these two combined become personal power) that is this cooperative navigational system. That means we are always aware of the nature of awareness itself and its interplay of individual and collective upon us and others. So if a sorcerer is practicing controlled folly, which is what I think you were referring to above, and merges with a collective position, you asked how does he get out of that merging. My answer would be that he never completely merged, only enough to express the sentiment of that position, however his personal power kept him free from annihilation (of his sorcerer awareness) into that collective.
I agree, controlled folly creates this kind of space in between. Between the nothing and the mask. In this space we have the knowledge (somewhere) and intent that it is a mask and this pulls us out. So yes, in this sense one would never completely merge, even if it is looking as any other person. Maybe it is helpful to introduce the notion of personal and impersonal here, as Nu Lang did. That the personal shifts to hold the AP, but the more impersonal keeps the overall stuff, intent, and helps pull us back.
Here I would tie back to what I said before:
I wrote: I think this is where we have to have the pull from the other side so to speak. I think this triggers a sort of remembering, which brings us out of the state. I am not sure if I can call this pull will, it might be, would make sense, but … I am inclined to call [it] the pull of my self, or something to that effect .
So now I have an answer to where more exactly this pull comes from.
This led me to another interesting thought. If even as we are now (most of us) ignorant to our true potential and no self being, if it is not about realizing this space of nothingness in between. This space that we slowly start to make use of, but maybe the biggest feat is to really go there, or be there.
Is that the void? Hm possibly not, I thought this pull is what gets one out of there back into the me, so it would not make sense . Maybe from that space we are closer to the void, maybe from there we can peek into the unknown.
I am most possibly mixing things here that should not be mixed.. but I got a bit exited for a second as these thoughts emerged in me while I was writing my reply. Still I know the mind is not enough to figure stuff out, so I am just leaving this here hanging a bit (because I am not sure I can digest all this now to make sense of it).
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”LoneWolf” wrote:The ap's available to mankind are many and the range goes from dark to light if there was a scale, of course we can access other life form ap's as well.
Interesting to mention other life forms (I thought immediately of animals, though it is broader than that) APs in this context, puts the discussion into a somewhat larger territory.
By dark and light do you mean something similar as to dark and light magicians, or more connected to flowing energy and less connected (the same way it can be observed in our eyes), or do you mean just that it looks different, has different shades when one looks at it in seeing?
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Maybe it is helpful to introduce the notion of personal and impersonal here, as Nu Lang did. That the personal shifts to hold the AP, but the more impersonal keeps the overall stuff, intent, and helps pull us back. Nice Watergaze. Its what I was seeing too. So being a sorcerer is, in large part, about balancing these aspects personal/impersonal (harmony) in order to navigate smoothly in this ever challenging exisitence.
Ok and this transitions nicely into your question:
And of course, there are other forms of self importance than just the thinking that one knows it all and can judge it all. But it is a good link that getting rid of self importance would rid us of judgments, wonder if it would rid us of preconceptions as well, how do you see this?
Ok, my thoughts...Short answer...yes it would!
And now for long answer
Self importance is a term CC began, and we all know it to means basically...self-reflection or absorption in personal interest at the expense sometimes of others, and certainly at our own spiritual expense. So many examples, one comes to mind... a more affluent civilization will take advantage of a less educated civilization (e.g. African diamond mines and exploration of African workers). What is created first is an imbalance. And if the goal of sorcerers is balance of personal/impersonal...that is...self will aligned with Spirit will (merged), we can see a stance of self-importance (better than/lesser than) would cut off the possibility of merging with Spirit, and instead form a link with FI preconceptions. Because, in my opinion is there is either Spirits link or FI link...no others besides these two and within each is a range of course and interwoven complexity, but still these basic two awareness's (the two minds..ref CC). To make things a bit harder (more challenging), warriors learn to see that its never just black and white though. One is rarely intending from only Spirit or FI. Often its a mixture, but I say our goal is to reinforce Spirit intent and thus concentrate our intent this way and it becomes more powerful (purified of the other influence).
The FI is maintained by mankind's collective energy and FI has its own set of intents that it enacts upon mankind who are open to be influenced (perpetual cycle). In order to be open to the FI one has to be imbalanced (better than/lesser than world view). Once this occurs...in early childhood for example, our parents and guardians scare us into a state of imbalance (the intents they push upon us...often only on a subconscious awareness level not openly malicious), ...so once this occurs, we are fed a link and this link carries forth the preconceptions you talk about that are weakening in nature, the entire body of FI influence and perpetuation.
To end self-importance would make one's awareness impalpable to the FI (it flees) and with it flees preconception (which belongs in the arena of FI). I say this shift away only happens after a complete 'eviction' of the flyer in one's person. So until that time, even those who are aware of the flyer and seek to personally rid it from their minds, still are subject to hear its voice as an inner voice, even if they don't respond to it, as they should not respond to it. The advantage being that, yes they hear preconceptions, inside themselves, but they recognize its that of the flyers mind, not theirs. Not 'doing battle' with it at this time is helpful. To have an inner struggle is taxing on energy. The FI is inside us because it was foreign installed, and intent put it there and intent shall remove it, in time, with discipline.
I like this question you came up with. I cannot recall any mention before about preconceptions! Very worthwhile to consider thoughts that come seemly out of nowhere and are 'up to no good' (imbalanced in origin). So how to deal with them so as to not give them a further life? I say, know them, know they are foreign in origin and not of Spirit, and do not act upon the thoughts which would only supply them with your energy (practice the intent of power instead). The way to know them is to have a good relationship with Spirit by contrast so as to recognize its voice. It takes time/trail and error and there is no perfection, just we do our best to be our best, I say, and thats enough for power to notice us and respond to move us forward (grant us insights and direction amongst all the complexity).
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"To end self-importance would make one's awareness impalpable to the FI (it flees)"
And this statement is based on observations...I saw how the FI operates solely off imbalance. Self-importance is a state of imbalance (individual will not in harmony with Spirit's will). Correcting it makes ones awareness/intent impalpable to the flyer mind which feeds only from imbalance.
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Maybe it is helpful to introduce the notion of personal and impersonal here, as Nu Lang did. That the personal shifts to hold the AP, but the more impersonal keeps the overall stuff, intent, and helps pull us back. Nice Watergaze. Its what I was seeing too. So being a sorcerer is, in large part, about balancing these aspects personal/impersonal (harmony) in order to navigate smoothly in this ever challenging exisitence.
And I just want to elaborate on what I meant. The reason I see the personal holds the ap is due to self-purpose (path with heart) and the desire for individual existence which is to experience the wonders being alive. To do this we need to 'be' ...an individual. What warriors learn is to be a fluid individual, so they journey farther into the abstract/spiritual planes.
So ap positions are sought/held and even released by personal will/heart desire. The impersonal has the broader view (eternal, knows past/present/future as one) and thus guides us and lends us its perceptual consciousness (we see the future before it comes about, we read minds, we understand lessons of the past) all from this broader impersonal perspective that hold us and responds to our will especially as we align with it. Its the mystery (how does a seed grow?) that we can count on even if we don't understand its operations entirely, it seems it understand entirety, in the most astounding unimaginable and encompassing way. To lose the self and become entirely it would end the journey, as I see it. Its better to lose human form and continue the journey of self this way.
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Nu Lang wrote:
Maybe it is helpful to introduce the notion of personal and impersonal here, as Nu Lang did. That the personal shifts to hold the AP, but the more impersonal keeps the overall stuff, intent, and helps pull us back. Nice Watergaze. Its what I was seeing too. So being a sorcerer is, in large part, about balancing these aspects personal/impersonal (harmony) in order to navigate smoothly in this ever challenging exisitence.
And I just want to elaborate on what I meant. The reason I see the personal holds the ap is due to self-purpose (path with heart) and the desire for individual existence which is to experience the wonders being alive. To do this we need to 'be' ...an individual. What warriors learn is to be a fluid individual, so they journey farther into the abstract/spiritual planes.
So ap positions are sought/held and even released by personal will/heart desire. The impersonal has the broader view (eternal, knows past/present/future as one) and thus guides us and lends us its perceptual consciousness (we see the future before it comes about, we read minds, we understand lessons of the past) all from this broader impersonal perspective that hold us and responds to our will especially as we align with it. Its the mystery (how does a seed grow?) that we can count on even if we don't understand its operations entirely, it seems it understand entirety, in the most astounding unimaginable and encompassing way. To lose the self and become entirely it would end the journey, as I see it. Its better to lose human form and continue the journey of self this way.So now I have an answer to where more exactly this pull comes from.
This led me to another interesting thought. If even as we are now (most of us) ignorant to our true potential and no self being, if it is not about realizing this space of nothingness in between. This space that we slowly start to make use of, but maybe the biggest feat is to really go there, or be there.
Is that the void? Hm possibly not, I thought this pull is what gets one out of there back into the me, so it would not make sense . Maybe from that space we are closer to the void, maybe from there we can peek into the unknown.
I am most possibly mixing things here that should not be mixed.. but I got a bit exited for a second as these thoughts emerged in me while I was writing my reply. Still I know the mind is not enough to figure stuff out, so I am just leaving this here hanging a bit (because I am not sure I can digest all this now to make sense of it).
The reason I look more at the personal is because the collective is made up of many personals. And becasue I cannot change the collective.
We are empty vessels waiting to be filled either with the Spirit or A spirit. That is our nature as human beings. Jesus said he was the Way, the Truth. and the Door. To the Father, Creator. He not only had a different AP than the Collective unconscious and Conscious, his AP had a direct link to That which IS. That which started all of this we see and become aware of and opperating from normal men in normal men's consciousness or soercerer's, adept's Magi or anything else we could name by any other cultural handle.
Ge 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
I Qabalistic terms, earth and heaven here are of a very fine nature. Not yet what we call matter. More like potential spirit and matter. The bible begins by describing the second World or "World of Creation",... "at the beginning" because it is the beginning of time and space. Before Beyond that, only God, pure exisistence, cannot be either described os understood if described. I find it better sometimes to think of levels as opposed to Time.
In Tales of Power Don Juan points out that all of the methods and techniques that he taught Carlos were only accelerants to the one all important technique of stopping the internal dialog.
This technique of stopping the internal dialog can be experienced on many levels. There are many levels of existence and experience between the Creation quoted above and being banished from the Garden to this physical plane and given coats of skins in Genesis 3.
But to hold the idea of Silence is to keep the goal of that level from which the Father first spoke the words "let there be."
Jesus was not showing off when he walked on water. He was illustrating the place from which he had come. Where the Spirit hovered over or moved across the face of the water. Where the first word came out of the Eternal Silence. The only messenger that came straight from that level of existence to show us the way back to that existence.
We now talk about moving the AP because we are encased in coats of skins (plural) but we can bypass all of that through silence. Many schools of meditation both of the Eastern and Western types attest to the illusory nature of both the physical plane and the so called Astral planes and the need to recognise that they are illusion. Don Juan agreed in that he said he did not want Carlos to get hung up in the Second attention but merely give him a taste and then move on.
The collective consciousness is changing because many of the hippie generation experienced some things and have shared those experiences and their research into those subjects through books and movies etc.,. I was amazed the last time I went to a large bookstore, at how much has been published in recent years.
Back in the 70's I had to travel many miles to find a bookstore that dealt with anything occult. The Theosphical bookstore in Wheaton IL, a bookstore in Chicago Heights dealing mostly in Witchcraft and an Occult bookstore on north Clark street in Chicago.
That was it! There was no internet or libraries dealing with this stuff.
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We are empty vessels waiting to be filled either with the Spirit or A spirit.Thats an interesting statement. And the timing too. Last night I was thinking about this very thing. Because I am working with astrology charts, and in astrology you have so many influences...sun signs, then all the planets, and then how they synergize (combinations of) where they fall in one's houses in chart, aspects with other planets, it goes on and on.
Then I was observing a TV program. A very colorful character came on. His personality is very animated, even the actor who plays the character seems colorful in real life. I was then imagining what that person is like on the movie set (when not filming) then I was asking...what planet would represent his mood? And it was Jupiter, which means jovial. Then it seemed like a 'spirit' not The Spirit but a spirit, an influence. So the inorganic realm, and then the organic realm inorganics find expression through, all the complexity of perceiving and this is like the gradients of the rainbow talked about. But I realized its not what we refer to as Spirit or Power. When we speak of this we speak of that which transcends all descriptions.
So we arrive at the indescribable. But we must describe our world to know it, even this, even the Spirit that cannot be described. So we describe it through the multitude of spirits effects (inorganic), and fluidity is knowing one never will arrive at the definition they seek, yet seek we must (path with heart).
Such as, Jupiter is called the God of the Gods. So head honcho right? But its nothing, not in light of The Spirit. Some would confuse Jupiter with God. But God is not set apart from others to rule over them. It seems that way but that is only the essence of what Jupiter feels like and we know 'a' God aspect through Jupiter but not encompass by any means God or Spirit. So God is just as much in Pluto, Hades of the underworld (death) or in Venus (love) or Mars (war) or Mercury (Messenger)... These are spirits, influences.
Having a link to the Spirit is having the direct route to a voice/force that will always transcend a fixed perception. It can't make itself known except through the myriad of things its not because such things are mere fragments of it. As sorcerers, we consciously link our intent to this force, its the nagual we seek. It teaches us to know the FI and its limitations and it also teaches us the limitations of perception itself (gradients of ap) so we avoid following false Gods (and ideas) and getting absorbed by a fixed position in knowledge. It also will show us, the need to ground ourselves because within its fluid knowledge is the dynamic of chaos and one would go insane if unable to stabilize their ap at will, here is where personal self saves us, an abstract personal self grounds us, a controlled folly self, the warrior in us. If one is a warrior, even if their ap becomes very fluid they will not go insane where as other people may.
Ok, back to Spirit.
How can Spirit be 'a thing' that teaches us? This I do not know. I'm just glad it is.
I'll give a specific example of how Spirit is a liberator in our lives. Lets go back to the jovial person. Lets say at work you know a jovial person, and all the co-workers like this person...the person is always smiling, has a kind word and a joke to make everyone laugh, is friends and good conversationalist. Then you have a more sullen type (Saturn or Plutonian influence) and the co-workers by contrast do not like this person. Its like the general consensus is 'life is about kindness, sharing caring. So and so is a real downer, does not joke or care, is not very nice." Jupiter is god-like now. "God is like this person, this person is closer to God. This other person is not." Now we have the imbalance, and so its actually not as it appears, rather its actually an ap position that is FI influenced. The feeling we have "the answer" and understand what is most true..."its better to be like this person (jovial) then that person (sullen)" Its a worship of traits and characteristics (false gods). We are filled with 'a' spirit (in this case Jupiter qualities) rather then the Spirit.
The Spirit will inform us of the value in both the jovial and sullen (and all inbetween perspectives too). Lets say you are a manager of this group of co-workers. The jovial guy is great but he slacks off on his work, and the sullen guy no one likes but you can depend on him to get his work done.
If you are a sorcerer (linked to Spirit) you will see then your own folly...that to prefer one or the other is merely fixing you ap in a right/wrong perspective...again FI influenced. So then you learn to stalk instead. You seek to get the most out of each person. The jovial guy can boost office morale, and the sullen guy needs to feel appreciated lest he give up and leave, thus you lose a responsible worker. So you quit caring about moral right and wrong or personal preferences (supposed superior traits)...what personalities are 'better than" or "worse than" and instead see God in all of the design and see also the directional movements and your part in it to make it most dynamically effective and balanced (harmonious environment). You also see where the other co-workers are fixing their ap. Maybe they gossip abotu the sullen one and compare his habits to the jovial one. Or maybe some don't; even like the jovial one, perceive he is too popular and thus envy the favoritism he receives. So you see all this playing out and your detached perspective informs you again and again and within this you make choices,--when to support whom and why, and its never to make one characteristic (employee win out), its always about harmony of the entire environment,God IS the design itself. Its better to make a peaceful environment and give the best opportunity for Power (the Spirit) to manifest (to manifest your internal and external simultaneously), but its not about enforcing any personal will, its always power decides and informs you how to proceed.
Controlled folly it is, but its not like you don't care, you do care, its just you are so fluid, it makes life more beautiful and fun to be liberated this way. To not worship false Gods or idols, to instead be plugged into a link with the Spirit that always keeps you informed amid the complexity of spirits seeking attention.
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Hi Nu Lang,
What you just wrote above is pure Qabalistic theory. For each Sephirah coming down the tree thhere is a God name an Achangelic name, an order of angels, an elemental. The planets are also hung on the tree and personalities can fit very well also for the reasons you stated.
You hang things on the tree to get an understanding of how things work in all 4 worlds. You first applied it to the personalities and appropriate planets and then to business and human interaction. It is the blue print or wiring diagram, so to speak, of how things work in the four worlds.
A mystic's concerns deal with the tree of life in the first world (Divine world). But we also apply it to the higher spiritual (Creative world of Archangels), The Formative world (Angels, paranormal, emotional, etc) and Physical (World of matter). There are four worlds and a tree in each world.
What you just wrote could have been a chapter in Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalah.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/pdf/mystical_qabala.pdf
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Bob May wrote:Hi Nu Lang,
What
you just wrote above is pure Qabalistic theory. For each Sephirah
coming down the tree thhere is a God name an Achangelic name, an order
of angels, an elemental. The planets are also hung on the tree and
personalities can fit very well also for the reasons you stated.
You
hang things on the tree to get an understanding of how things work in
all 4 worlds. You first applied it to the personalities and appropriate
planets and then to business and human interaction. It is the blue print
or wiring diagram, so to speak, of how things work in the four worlds.
A
mystic's concerns deal with the tree of life in the first world (Divine
world). But we also apply it to the higher spiritual (Creative world of
Archangels), The Formative world (Angels, paranormal, emotional, etc)
and Physical (World of matter). There are four worlds and a tree in each
world.
What you just wrote could have been a chapter in Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalah.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/pdf/myst...ala.pdfYes, glad you shared that, it reminds me that all we all are really doing is putting words and descriptions (bringing order and systems of classification) to very real,tangible expereinces (seeing energy), designs of an era or environments experienced during our time span. I will look at the Qabbalah pdf, thanks 
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Sorry lone wolf but i do not see any nagual in your opening post, only the flow of a river of gargoyles.
Im just a passing visitor though. Dont worry I'll be gone soon and you can feel comfortable and safe again soon.
As for being open to power, that depends on how upset you get.
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Hi jezebel
Duality. Yes, that is something I found attractive in the Castaneda works; not good and evil, but naturally existing PREDATORS. It makes sense.
I just saw a news item about Leopard attacks on Indian villagers . Castaneda wrote that such things are the nature of a predator, and getting angry, placing blame, are worse than useless.
In such cases, it seems that the Nagual method is to be aware and not be available.
Good advice, a lifetime of application required.
HC
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Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Once a warrior becomes aware of power he/she has decided these things:One: I will be my own person and whatever happens I will be true to my self.
Two: I will be open to the world with a open heart and mind.
Three: I know there is something out there. Something called power. I know that it is aware of me.
Four: I will stalk this power and see if I can find knowledge.
Five: I will cleanse my thoughts and body to be as open I can to power.
Six: I know power can come to me in many ways. Dreams, Omens, People, Animals, Elements, Inorganic Beings,Etc,
Seven: I know if I am open power will connect with me in many ways.
Eight: I realize that if I believe and intend these beliefs I will change and maybe change forever.
Nine: Power is power and it affects those like me who seek it.
Ten: Death is my advisor.
How does power connect with me you may ask? The world's teachings of Jesus Christ, Zen Masters, Yoga, Hindu and the rest all try and teach you how to change, how to be, how to live and what happens when you die. Truth is death like life is uncertain. There maybe a heaven and hell, a rebirth of spirit (reincarnation), a world where we go to as spirits and do on in a karma ascension but there is also perhaps an end. Death. Nothing. OR...the Toltec belief that one is "eaten" for their awareness by the Eagle (Nagual Creator).
Only when you die will you know what will be your fate.
A warrior maybe see all or some of these death endings but a warrior CELEBRATES LIFE when he/she dies. The warrior knows of what he/she believes. A warrior knows that in death will they meet power. Power will wait for them, it may want your awareness, it may want you to go on, it may become one with you AGAIN.
Impossible to comment TT
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Oh sol, now we join the time of the child my glass only half fills, but time it is, and I find vindictive, and trickery with playfulness and duty. In the depth of the eternities of everyday does power reside. So in the touch of one moment how could I ever forget you. Command it, it shall be yours maybe in a way you have always known it. Roll with the force of power and attempt to integrate it into your existing energy. Powers where you seek it spyspyspy.see it. intend with it, forget the self. If we relinguish control maybe us can escape the perishing cold. In one sense we will be children forever but for all the sons and daughters of power you will feel that sadness. If we bang on the door long enough it is bound to open. For every fish we eat there are ten more in the basket. When we have two we begin to flow into powers divine response we begin to know and sense what it is we are seeking. Firstly this might be the ability to command the right and left sides. For a nagual it is enhanced as the power to remember but for both it is same .the ability to gain heightened awareness. This may be as simple as being the dreamer and stalking the stalkers
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