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Hi Watergaze,
From the thread Exegesis; Watergaze said,
Interesting, again. I know the story of Babel, it is one of the most famous ones, so even I know it. Wasn't it presented as a bad thing in the Bible though? People building the tower to get to god, but the tower was blown down and they stopped understanding each other. With the interpretation put on it that it was a sort of punishment and preventing them to cooperate in such a way in the future.
The way you present it here it is truly organic with a state of consciousness and as such could be seen as a valid and good step on the stairway leading upwards where one wishes to climb. Then the element of punishment is off, but how about the striking down of the tower? how does that fit in? Is it like a sudden change in the perception of the person?
The first few chapters of Genesis have to do with creation and "involution." How we got here on this plane and got so dense in the process. I believe the way out is symbolised by the geneology of Jesus as written in the book of Matthew. The spiritual experiences and awarenesses given to the Patriarchs (the Family tree of Jesus) are "markers" along the path of awakening to the mind of Christ which we are promised as believers. This is the "Evolution" of us returning to where we belong.
Matthew 1
Mt 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mt 1:2
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mt 1:3
And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mt 1:6
And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
Mt 1:11
And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mt 1:12
And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mt 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
I did not show the whole geneology but the important "markers" of it having to do with this discussion. Abraham, David, The captivity in Babylon and Christ.
Three segments of Fourteen Generations separating these important place in consciousness. Or Awarenesses. Realizations, I guess you could call them.
Abraham= Belief in the unseen
David= The understanding that God does not hold our sin against us. In a word, the awareness of Grace.
Captivity in Babylon= Confusion.
Christ= the Pinacle of awareness. "I and the Father are one."
If I overlap three trees so that the Yesod, (Foundation) of one tree sits on the Daath (experiential knowledge and gateway to another order of being) of the next tree we get three 14's. The reason I layed it out this way, in a ladder of sorts, is that when we have a spiritual experience (Daath) it becomes the foundation (Yesod) of further growth. In other words we grow by past experiences and can then recognize the pattern when moving to a new experience.
We came down the tree the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We died to the spirit world.
We go up the tree, the tree of life by having the awarenesses/awakenings that are symbolized by these specific "markers."
Abraham, David, Babylon and Christ, the goal.
It is interesting that the first path Kether added to the 13th path from Kether down to Tiphareth add up to 14 three times making up the 42 generations pointed out in the verses above. This is the Middle Pillar, also called the path of Grace. David is that awareness of Grace, meaning God does not hold our sin against us and is the Giver of life and all that we have.
This awareness frees us to return.
You may also notice that the letter Samech in the Hebrew letter chart above in the ancient Hebrew form shows this middle pillar with three cross paths.
This letter is assigned to the middle pillar path 25 (from Tipareth to Yesod).
My point is that at some point in our return we see the coming together of language that was confused at the Tower of Babel. We also see the confusion there because we begin to see where we have "missed it." Others do not see this and we cannot communicate with them what we have found. No matter how hard we try.
The Tower of Babel was on the way down. The confusion of speech.
Pentecost is on the way home. The understanding of unknown tongues.
From the captivity in Babylon to Christ we are learning the language of God. The language that Jesus knew.
It comes in the form of stones speaking, animals speaking and teaching and letters which are also numbers and pictographs.
God speaks to us all of the time but we have to learn to hear Him as Jesus did.
It takes faith in the unseen, (Abraham) and belief that He has our best interests at heart even though we don't always do the right things. (David)
Job 12:7
But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Job 12:8
Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Job 12:9
Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
It is when we begin to learn this language that we begin to see the confusion we have been living in. We also begin to see the confusion that others are living in.
This is not judging or condemning because we also were caught up in the same confusion and still are to the degree that we have still much to learn.
But we begin to see the captivity of Babylon from the outside instead of from the inside.
Lu 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
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Hello Bob, nice to read you here
I have read yesterday a tiny bit into some of the things you mentioned, into some of the 'bubles' and understood a tiny bit about the two pillars that are on the sides.. I will look at it a little bit more yet. It helps me understand what you are saying a little bit better. I do think I can get the general current though and that is most important.. . I am going for a vacation almost tomorrow, so till I come back I will not be posting (nor can I really take time to ponder on what you just wrote, although I did catch some interesting things there), but I have something to tell you, that is why I am writing in the first place .
This night I had a dream where I saw how ideas are/get connected to other ideas. I saw how words are born. I barely remembered this, I forgot the details. But they were in the air and I was watching them. They were changing and creating. But to me it came first from the idea level. In this sense one could say it was a deduction. I first saw the bigger and then I realized the smaller. So the opposite of your letters that started making words.
Of course when I read your account of the dream you had I understood why it is hard to read in lucid dreaming . Basically all lucid dreamers experience this, but do not realize what it means.. In my dream I did not specifically see each letter as you did in yours, but I saw they are the entities that create the words and the words then strings of words (ideas I called them, even if it might not be precise, that is how i called it in my dream) and those then other/different strings of words.
I have looked at the 'bubbles' and saw the tree with the other letters/signs. And then you also posted here the letters and explanations. I was looking at how it changed: ancient to modern, basically went through the whole chart what caught my eye. I guess I somehow connected to your experience. I remember the moment when I understood what it is that I am seeing. That it is living ideas, and then I saw living words.. and I saw the parts of words but guess my attention/or recall did not last that long for me to focus on a specific letter. I just saw them as single units that move around, they were kind of wiggling even while being part of a word and some left of to a different word etc, so they move around to create the words (and thus ideas)  . I understood the ideas and those ideas that were gotten from those ideas. But I do not remember them.
I was something similar before, but not in such a big scope. It was 2 words also floating but I know this time it was in white air (that would go with the 'written in white light floating in the air' you mention maybe). These two words got split and formed another word. The letters were not moving each by it self, but the words were made of smaller words/units and those separated and made another word .
If I think about it more I can also say it was as if I was observing myself from the outside in the beginning. I was standing and above me in the air were these ideas. Maybe they were my ideas or maybe I was just observing them, do not know. But from one string another string was remade. And I was seeing this. Later I guess I was myself and watching the words make other words etc.
This made me remember another thing. Someone told me once that she can see things written above people's heads.. guess that could be this taken a bit further .
Well, coming to the topic of this thread. Do you think old letters have more magic in them? They do look more magical to me at least, because they look so mysterious and remind me of runes, that are magical symbols/letters). But actually I get a magical living feeling even from our Roman alphabet letters now that I think back to my other dreams. I did not really see the letters this night so I do not know if they were these letters that you posted, but surely you telling your experience and me seeing these letters helped me have this dream tonight. The two words that I saw make a different word were from the Roman alphabet.
I am pasting here your experience (so that it is together and one does not have to go looking into other parts of the site):
Bob May in 'Exegesis' thread wrote:You have it right there in that you said everyone understood what the Apostles said in their own tongue. That was the miracle. If you go to Pentacostal churches they make a show of speaking in other tongues. But the real miracle was one of an opening of awareness. The understanding of other tongues.
I had an experience once in which I woke up dreaming. The dream kept going even though I was awake and walking around. I was in such an alternate and alien state of mind that it is difficult to describe. But what happened was that there were letters written in white light floating in the air above me. They were of a different language and I would guess they were ancient Hebrew. But here is the weird part. The letters were alive and conscious. They were living beings.
They arranged themselves into verses from the bible and I instantly understood them with a clarity that I had never before or since known. They were verses that I had known previously but had never understood. All I could think was, "Why hadn't I understood this before? It is plain as day and it says exactly what it means.
As soon as It would dawn on me the letters would laugh at me and rearrange themselves again. I would then forget the previous verse and be overwhelmed by the realisation of the next verse. Then it would happen again. This went on over and over again for about 10 to 20 minutes. I had sat on the floor with my back against the wall, completely stunned and staring at the laughing dancing letters.
When it was over, I could not retain any of the specific verses. Just the sense of Clarity that had come.
I do not speak any language but English. I know a few words in Hebrew and the letters. That is all.
But coming to what you write in the beginning of this quote your seeing of the letters obviously connects to the understanding of tongues, because they were old letters forming old words. I do not think that was my case . My experience made me see in reality the magic of language. Something I knew but did not see before, so did not really know at such a deep level.
So you put emphasis not on speaking but on understanding of other tongues.. I am not sure how to understand this shift at the moment. Because I read on the net that during Pentecost some fire flames (or something like that) descended on the apostles and they started speaking and the others around them understood each in their own tongue what they were saying. So the apostles had the gift of speaking and the others understood. One could then say that the others had the gift of understanding I guess. But nothing descended on them .
From what you say it would seem the apostles had the gift to understand.. how can one person understand so much that he can talk and everyone understands it in a different language.. hm... I have to expand my reality a bit. I would not say it is not possible, what do I know. If one can look differently to different people, have slightly different clothes on for each one, then why not say something else to each of them.. the double could do this, it could be done in dreaming and we all know dreaming is real.. It can be done..
Coming back to what I call 'the language of the soul' I think that is spoken and understood by people who can feel and let themselves feel it. No intellectual ideas can be transmitted like this, well maybe they can but I do not know how to do it (speak or understand them). Maybe a really powerful/wise person could do this..
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watergaze wrote:
But coming to what you write in the beginning of this quote your seeing of the letters obviously connects to the understanding of tongues, because they were old letters forming old words. I do not think that was my case . My experience made me see in reality the magic of language. Something I knew but did not see before, so did not really know at such a deep level.
"In the beginning the word was with God and the word was God."
Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Old and new has no meaning when dealing with eternal things. If everything was crewated by the Word, then letters, language, sound symbolism, letters and allegory all have some magical or mystical power to them. They are symbols for the Real. Just as we, when we speak or write or draw are using symbols to communicate ideas (the reality we are trying to convey) so, God does the same in communicating His Reality to us. Letters are the pieces of the words and some languages, such as Hebrew stack up smaller groups of letters to make larger words etc. The letters are the building blocks but those letters each have their own individual meanings also.
Those meanings are what I call Principles. Basic building blocks. For us, the basic building blocks of language. For God the basic building blocks of everything that exists.
So you put emphasis not on speaking but on understanding of other tongues.. I am not sure how to understand this shift at the moment. Because I read on the net that during Pentecost some fire flames (or something like that) descended on the apostles and they started speaking and the others around them understood each in their own tongue what they were saying. So the apostles had the gift of speaking and the others understood. One could then say that the others had the gift of understanding I guess. But nothing descended on them .
Ac 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Ac 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Ac 2:18
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Some scoffed, yes, but that does not mean that something did not happen. Something became available at that moment to all flesh that was not available before this happened. It is still available and some still scoff.
From what you say it would seem the apostles had the gift to understand.. how can one person understand so much that he can talk and everyone understands it in a different language.. hm... I have to expand my reality a bit. I would not say it is not possible, what do I know. If one can look differently to different people, have slightly different clothes on for each one, then why not say something else to each of them.. the double could do this, it could be done in dreaming and we all know dreaming is real.. It can be done..
There were 120 believers there. Not just the Apostles. There were 17 languages that were listed as being understood while only one was being spoken. Others came from all around and Peter stood up and confronted those that were scoffing and told them that it was the fullfilment of and Old Testament prophecy spoken by Joel.
Coming back to what I call 'the language of the soul' I think that is spoken and understood by people who can feel and let themselves feel it. No intellectual ideas can be transmitted like this, well maybe they can but I do not know how to do it (speak or understand them). Maybe a really powerful/wise person could do this..Intellectually speaking it is impossible. That is why people scoff. They have nothing to compare it to. It should not be able to happen but it does.
That is how Spiritual things happen. They are beyond our ordinary frame of reference. The correct attitude, I believe, is just to accept these things and not scoff. One day we may understand them.
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For myself language and magic dont belong in the same sphere. Magic by its definition (mine) operates outside the known. Language is in the realm of the known. The two dont mix.
Its an important distinction. Wether the language is new or old is irrelevant. Language is known. Magic is outside of this.
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seesaw wrote:
For myself language and magic dont belong in the same sphere. Magic by its definition (mine) operates outside the known. Language is in the realm of the known. The two dont mix.
Its an important distinction. Wether the language is new or old is irrelevant. Language is known. Magic is outside of this.
Job 12:7
But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Job 12:8
Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Job 12:9
Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
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Bob i just asked my cat to tell me all the secrets of being a cat. She did answer, she mewed at me, but i didnt really understand what she said. Even if i had understood it would have been at a level outside words since frankly i dont speak 'cat'. I can guess what she meant just because i know her. But its a guess.
In my past however i did experience a dog 'speaking' to me. Even though they 'spoke' they did it without moving thier cute little mouth or making a sound. It was freaky. It was magical. It was certainly outside language. I got the transmission direct from mind to mind, but even calling this telepathy does not really capture what actually happened. Having experienced this for myself i can say that the word 'telepathy' is a very very poor attempt to describe what happened.
The difference between the two events outlined above is vast.
I can only guess what your biblical references are referring to. If the things you quote did in fact happen ie birds talking to me, earth teaching me, again i would have to put this down to something outside language. We might describe these mysterious events as 'seeing' or 'knowing' or 'talking', but thats just reducing the magical to the known so we can discusss it afterwards. When those sorts of things do happen they happen outside language. For me the bible talks in a range of styles. Sometimes metaphorically, sometimes literally. Jesus doing his miracles was literal. The quotes you supply above are metaphorical ways of describing something that is for humans a magical experience.
For me magic can be experienced, and even spoken about, but to say that words themselves are magical is to blend aspects of our total possibility into the same area. Doing that risks robbing us of the possibility of experiencing the transcendent on the other side of words.
Its curious because this brings up something that has been described as the 'voice of seeing'. This is an automatic explanation that occurs when we do pierce the boundary and experience the other side. Its an explanation that occurs inside the rational speaking parts of us even as we are experiencing stuff 'over the edge'. But even this happens on this side, the known side, the side that deals with language concepts ideas etc.
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seesaw wrote:
Bob i just asked my cat to tell me all the secrets of being a cat. She did answer, she mewed at me, but i didnt really understand what she said. Even if i had understood it would have been at a level outside words since frankly i dont speak 'cat'. I can guess what she meant just because i know her. But its a guess.
Sounds like cats don't have too many secrets. Or maybe your cat doesn't know them.
In my past however i did experience a dog 'speaking' to me. Even though they 'spoke' they did it without moving thier cute little mouth or making a sound. It was freaky. It was magical. It was certainly outside language. I got the transmission direct from mind to mind, but even calling this telepathy does not really capture what actually happened. Having experienced this for myself i can say that the word 'telepathy' is a very very poor attempt to describe what happened.
The difference between the two events outlined above is vast.
Yes, it is.
I can only guess what your biblical references are referring to. If the things you quote did in fact happen ie birds talking to me, earth teaching me, again i would have to put this down to something outside language. We might describe these mysterious events as 'seeing' or 'knowing' or 'talking', but thats just reducing the magical to the known so we can discusss it afterwards. When those sorts of things do happen they happen outside language. For me the bible talks in a range of styles. Sometimes metaphorically, sometimes literally. Jesus doing his miracles was literal. The quotes you supply above are metaphorical ways of describing something that is for humans a magical experience.
Sometimes I sit and just listen to the woods next to my house. What it tells me is not in words, but it is a symphony of sorts. Everything is one and connected.
For me magic can be experienced, and even spoken about, but to say that words themselves are magical is to blend aspects of our total possibility into the same area. Doing that risks robbing us of the possibility of experiencing the transcendent on the other side of words.
I see what you are saying here but it is not "mixing" to realize God is in all levels of reality and uses language and has given us language as a tool.
Its curious because this brings up something that has been described as the 'voice of seeing'. This is an automatic explanation that occurs when we do pierce the boundary and experience the other side. Its an explanation that occurs inside the rational speaking parts of us even as we are experiencing stuff 'over the edge'. But even this happens on this side, the known side, the side that deals with language concepts ideas etc.
Ec 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ec 3:2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ec 3:3
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ec 3:4
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ec 3:5
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ec 3:6
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ec 3:7
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;We have an experience by the practice of silence. Then we share it.
Words are recepticles for ideas. For realities.
Letters are symbols for sounds, ideas and numbers. Words are made of letters. Stacked together the words convey more complex ideas. Allegory and metaphor create a second meaning to those sentences. If you do not know the keys to the second meaning of those sentences and words you cannot understand the deeper meaning intended by the author.
Jesus healed people literally and performed miracles. But the miracles were a "Sign" for us. That our spiritual eyes, ears would be opened etc. That we would be raised from the dead state that we are in.
The voice of seeing is there because we are trying to understand an experience. It is clothing for spiritual ideas. So that we can understand and or share what we learn. It usually happens to me when I am waking. I sit and listen for a half hour or so and learn from it.
God uses the subconscious mind which is predominant during sleep to sort out what we are learning and bring it to the surface.
It is the threshold.
1ki 19:11
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
1ki 19:12
And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
1ki 19:13
And it was so, when Elijah heard it that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
Elijah was in a cave and came and stood in the entering of the cave. This is a "threshold experience." That place where conscious and subconscious "flip"
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