Thunderbeings

[watergaze]

The following is a chapter from a book called "Path of the Mystic" by Ai Gvhdi Waya.

Chapter 11: Thunderbeings
When I was seven years old and my two younger siblings were six and three, respectively, a horrendous thunderstorm came up early one morning around 4 a.m. It was still dark out, and the wind was howling like a woman screaming. Frightened, I ran to my parents' room, wanting to get into bed with them to be sage from the giant storm outside our house.

Of course, they sent me back to my bed, but by this time my sister and brother, Nancy and Gary, had been awakened too by the crash of thunder and the slashing of rain against the house. It sounded like a major hail storm. We all crowded into Gary's bed, an Army cot, like a bunch of baby rabbits huddled together under the quilt and blanket, grabbing onto one another, when a bolt of lightning struck the metal clothesline just outside the bedroom window.

The entire room blew up with light so blinding that it was incredible. The horrendous sound of thunder crashed down upon us, making us all shriek in unadulterated terror. Worse, just moments before the lightning hit, the hair on our bodies had stood on end. We knew we were in for it, but had no concept of just how we were in for it.

The lighting hit a pie tin that my mother had set b the clothesline for feeding the cats in each morning. We heard the pie tin being struck, heard the metallic sound as it soared upward and then banged back down on the ground several times after the strike. We were crying and so scared. We didn't even want to get out of the bed for fear another bolt would get us before we got to our parents' bedroom!

As the storm continued to howl around the house, and I huddled in the warmth and darkness with my two shaking siblings, I vividly recalled the terror I had felt because of thunder when I was five years old. I recalled being so terrified that I'd run screaming hysterically to wherever my mother was. One time, she laughed, picked me up and told me not to be afraid of the sound in the sky. All it was, she said, pointing to the roiling, dark, pregnant clouds above us, were giants kicking a tin can around between them. Each time a giant kicked the tin can, we'd hear it down on Earth as a rumble of thunder.

I have never felt so relieved, and I remember that the fear went away after I had grasped the concept that there was an invisible giant or two up in those storm clouds. My mother returned me to the ground and I remember feeling relieved and that these giants weren't going to hurt me after all; they were merely playing "kick the can" just like us kids played it with one another!

The memory surfaced as I quaked and shook beneath the covers with Gary and Nancy, but this storm was too close for comfort, too frightening and overpowering. The sound was brutal on my sensitive "dog ears."

After that particular storm I began to try to understand these giants better, probably realizing that if I understood then I would stop being afraid. Between the ages of seven and nice, I would spend hours on my way back in a field, studying the fluffy cumulus clouds that drifted lazily across the sky. My mother had told me that I could use my mind's energy to move the clouds, and I practiced this until it became an art form.

As I began to work with the Cloud People, as we called them. I was made to understand that they were smaller, less powerful spirits who worked for Father Sky, who was the big boss. However, my father told me about Thunderbeings, huge giants who were invisible but very powerful spirits who job it was to gather the clouds and create the violence so that a thunderstorm would arise. Father Sky was the chief, but the Thunderbeings were his lieutenants and the rest of the clouds were privates.

My father would tell me about these fantastically powerful beings who are invisible to the naked eye, whose sole job it was to create the storms that raged around Mother Earth. He told me that I could see them with my third eye, but as hard as I tried, I couldn't see a thing. However, my fear of thunderstorms had transformed into one of absolute awe and excitement each time one swept across the dry, desertlike region of Ontario, Oregon, where we lived at the time.

I recall one thunderstorm in particular that occurred when I was nine years old. I saw the fluffy white cumulus clouds building into thick, high towers in the distance and heard a far-off thunder, knowing that it was coming our way. Out back, near our cow barn, was a huge pile of dried manure. This manure pile stretched about 40 feet and was about 15 feet high. Because it was dry, we kids would play on and around it constantly. It was the only "mountain" on the flat Ontario terrain.

This thunderstorm brewing west of us was enormous. It was far larger than any storm I'd ever seen roll across the dry Oregon desert. An excitement filled me, one of eager anticipation. I didn't know why. I was happy to have a thunderstorm roll over now, realizing that those invisible giants, the Thunderbeings, were amassing, moving and creating storms that would give Mother Earth a drink of necessary water for her and all her relations.

The wind spirits began to whip around me, dancing, tugging at my clothes and at my long brown hair, A thrill shot through me as I intuitively raced up to the top of our manure mountain. The storm was immense, brooding dark gray on the bottom with cauliflower, bubbling cumulus formations shooting skyward to at least 50,000 feet in altitude. The wind grew stronger, no longer playful, but sharp gusts warning me of the approaching storm.

Out of some instinct, as the lightning danced closer and closer to me, the storm now moving directly over our home, I threw my small, skinny arms skyward, my hands outstretched, open. And I laughed for the sheer joy of feeling the actual invisible power of this approaching Thunderbeing.

Then a strange thing happened. I felt wild tingling begin in the tips of my fingers, and quickly, like a bolt of lightning, it raced up my arms, into my head and down through my body. I felt electrical as if I had stuck my finger into an electric outlet. It was a heady, thrilling moment. The wind roared and gusted around me. I inhaled the sweet, fresh scent of approaching rain deep into my lungs. My hair whipped around me like live snakes. My body was buffeted by invisible hands so powerful that it almost made me lose my balance. The sensations going through me were incredible, and I stood there as the electrical activity raced among me, that storm and the Earth.

As I stood there, an old memory, a déjà vu, stirred deep in my unconscious. It was a past-life memory of being a young priestess in another country, stretching her arms skyward, the lightning dancing around her, yet never touching her or harming her. The memory itself was like a lightning bolt - gone as quickly as it had come.

I don't know how long I stood there, probably until the rains came. And then I was down off the pile of manure to the safety of the house because I hated getting wet!

[watergaze]

I had never realized what had taken place that day until much later in my life when Sam, my teacher, sat listening to my story about that incident. He kind of smiled, settled his cowboy hat, a beat-up old straw hat that had too many smudges of dirt along the brim, and looked directly at me.

"You know, they're called Thunderbeings."

Eagerly, I leaned forward. We were sitting out in the hills of California near a sage patch where we'd just gathered some sage ceremonially, and we were taking a break from the hot Sun overhead. 

"What can you tell me about them?" I prayed he'd open up and tell me something, because rarely would he divulge much of anything. 

Taking a piece of the recently picked, velvet, white and green sage, he stuck a leaf in his mouth and leaned back against a large black lava rock. "Among the Cherokee, if you have Thunderbeing medicine..." Then he just shook his head, his smile widening.

Frustrated, I said, "Sam! What about this medicine?"

"You have it."

"What?"

"The Thunderbeings have chosen you to carry their medicine." He waved his hand vaguely upward toward the white clouds that dotted the pale blue sky. "Usually, if someone tries for this medicine, he/she gets hit by lightning. A lot of people are killed this way. Most don't survive, or if they do, they aren't the same."

"I wasn't hit by lightning."

"No, but you don't always have to be struck. What you were feeling when you were nine was the actual energy that is transferred between the Thunderbeing and Mother Earth. Not many people ever get to experience that. You did. It means you're in tune with them."

I wrapped my arms around my drawn-up knees. "Tell me more."

"The guys I know in Oklahoma who have this medicine... well, they can call a Thunderbieng. And when they do, it knocks them unconscious - maybe for an hour, maybe for a day at a time."

"What happens when they wake up?"

"They have a message or a vision of some kind."

Fascinated, I said, "I've never had that happen."

He chewed thoughtfully on a second sage leaf. "Maybe you don't have to," he murmured.

"But," I searched, looking up at the sky and clouds, "what does Thunderbieng medicine do?"

"What do storms do?"

I groaned, knowing full well Sam was going to play his endless circular game of words with me. By then I was used to it, but that didn't mean I liked it any more than before, because I didn't.  "They nourish Mother Earth. They give water back to her so that all things can continue to live."

"That's a pretty tall order, isn't it?" he said, his eyes narrowing speculatively.

I moved uncomfortably, knowing Sam wanted me to realize the observation I'd made and apply it to myself. "Okay," I began haltingly, "maybe, in some small way, I give back to my relatives?"

"Good. Go on."

"On to what?" I got up, growling, dusting off the seat of my Levi's and giving him a dirty look in the interim.

"What else?" 
There were days when I could take his good-natured prodding but today wasn't one of them. "Dammit, Sam, just tell me okay?"
He gave me a very patient look and a smile.
I felt like hell. I felt embarrassed because I'd lost my temper and he'd never lost his with me. But then, he was twenty years my senior and more mature, I told myself grumpily. Throwing up my arms, I walked around the area beneath the shade of the pin oak where he sat.

"You were in the Navy," Sam began quietly. "You were a weather forecaster for three years. You can't tell me that you don't know something about clouds, how they're made and what they do."

His reminder stung me even more and I glared at him. I sat down opposite him on a smooth reddish-colored rock. "Do you want a lot of scientific gobbledygook?" I demanded tightly.

"No. Just look at it symbolically."

I tried to soothe my shame and embarrassment. Sam didn't deserve my short temper or lack of patience, but then I'd had trouble with both all my life. What was new? Grimly, I forced myself to take an overview of forecasting, of my understanding on a scientific level about clouds and their formation, their intrinsic tie to Mother Earth.

"They," I said waspishly, "transform. The water on the Earth and in the rivers, streams and oceans is lifted invisibly to the sky and the condensation that occurs because of hot and cold factors create the clouds."

"Very good." He smiled a little and stretched out so his shoulders and head were against the rock, as though it were a pillow, and he pushed the cowboy hat forward so that it covered nearly all his face. "What's the key word in all those things you said?"
My mouth twisted at one corner and I tried to patiently sort through my definition.

"Transformation, I guess..."

"Right. So how does that apply to you? To what you do or will do in the future?"
"Transform things?" I guessed, not very sure at all of what Sam was getting at.
"Bingo."

[watergaze]

I should have felt relief because I had a "right" answer, but I didn't.  I sat there a good fifteen minutes chewing on that one. In the meantime, Sam dozed off, his soft snore punctuating the lazy, hot California afternoon. Unhappy, I got up and stalked off to the hillside of sage. We still needed more for ceremony, and I dearly loved talking with the plants and gathering the wonderful, aromatic herb.

As I asked permission to pick a few stalks from each plant, I was mulling over Sam's needling me into realizing that Thunderbeing medicine was actually about transformation. As I picked, my temper cooled and my feelings of shame and embarrassment dissolved. I tried to look at my life from the perspective of transformation.

By the time I was eighteen years old, we'd moved twenty-two times, not just in one state, either, but all over the West. Going into the Navy when I was eighteen required a different kind of transformation - one of leaving home and going into a very rigid military atmosphere, something few women had ever done. And that had certainly been a transforming experience if there had ever been one! I had learned lessons about myself, about relationships, about men and about so many other things.

The more I picked sage on the hillside, the more deeply I went into looking at my life as one of ongoing transformation. I had left the Navy and taken up professional astrology. (My mother had studied astrology and had allowed me to read her books when I was nine years old, so I got my love of this science way back then.)

As an astrological counselor, I saw that I made a difference in about 50% of my client's lives, but I also saw a more pressing need in the field of health and astrology. I taught myself medical astrology and worked for a decade on a scientific footing to prove what I knew and to discover a way of looking at the chart medically. I discovered the Med-Scan Technique, and it's 95% accurate, even to this day.

Because I'd gone into the health field from a metaphysical perspective, homeopathy, a complementary form of medicine practiced all over the world (although only minimally in the U.S.), became my next transformation. In homeopathy I discovered a form of medicine that truly transforms in the most positive of ways and is the only system of medicine on the face of the Earth that cures. So I then became a homeopathic consultant, transforming people's lives in that way.

By the time I had finished collecting another bag of sage and had gone to rest under the pin oak, Sam had awakened from his nap. He was sitting there with a canteen in his hands, sipping the warm water. I sat down and gave him an apologetic look. "I see what you mean about transformations, about how it applies to me, to my life and to the work I do."

He grunted and sat up, crossing his legs, his dusty cowboy boots scarred with age and wear. Capping the canteen, he offered it to me. "You're like a lightning bolt in some ways," he said. "You're a catalyst in the lives of other people. That's an aspect of Thunderbeing medicine. You don't get knocked out, but the people, your clients, are rattled or shaken by your insights into them. You know that a ceremony, a song, a homeopathic remedy, a correct herb, can all change a person's life for the better."

I took the canteen and swallowed a long gulp of the water. I appreciated Sam's insights. I capped the canteen and set it aside. "So I shock others into an awareness about themselves on some level?"

He smiled. "You got it."

"If I'm so good at this, why can't I catalyze myself?" I grumbled.

With a hearty laugh, Sam slowly unwound and stood up. "That's my job."

[watergaze]

Ever since those two years of training with Sam, wherever I go, the Thunderbeings come with me. In November of 1990, I was invited down to São Paulo, Brazil, to present a workshop to scientists and medical doctors about medical astrology. For the week that I was in São Paulo, there was a thunderstorm every day. My host, Miguel Ferrari, told me that it was highly unusual for there to be storms in the city at that time of year. Further, the storms were so large and devastating that they literally flooded parts of this city of fourteen million people.

When I left with Miguel and his family to spend a week in the Amazon jungle, we first stopped off at Cortine, in Minas Gerais, the mining state of Brazil. We toured tourmaline mines and quartz crystal mines and saw some of the most beautiful gems I'd ever seen. I had sung songs for the spirits of this incredibly beautiful land while there. I had made a small medicine wheel for them. When it was time to leave and fly on to Manaus, which is set at the headwaters of the Amazon, the most amazing and spectacular thunderstorm arose. It was a storm of such devastation that it knocked two hundred-year-old trees down across the two-lane highway, blocking us from going anywhere.

As I sat in the van while my husband and Miguel worked with twenty other people who had left their cars to try to remove the huge tree from the road that dusk, a Thunderbeing called my name. I turned to the window and looked out, hearing his deep voice vibrating telepathically in my mind. He told me that the mountain spirit of the area didn't want me to leave but rather to stay a few more days and perform more healing ceremonies for the spirits of the region. The mountain spirit had asked the Thunderbeing to create a storm of such magnitude that it would stop me from leaving! I was thunderstruck, to say the least, having not even thought of my presence in the area that way. I didn;t even have my personal pipe with me. I only had my songs, my heart and my need to give back to all my relations.

I begged the Thunderbieng to relent, to let us pass, to stop the rain. Within fifteen minutes, the storm abated and within half an hour, right at twilight, the sky was miraculously clear of clouds and storm. It was magical. I felt humbled by the request of the powerful mountain spirit near Governador Veladares, the gateway to the land of gems and minerals. But I couldn't stay. I mentally sent a promise to that huge mountain that if I ever returned to Brazil, I would bring my pipe, stand at his base and perform a healing ceremony for him and his relations.

No matter where I go in the world, a thunderstorm will crop up about twelve hours before I arrive, during the time I'm there or roughly twelve hours after I've left the area. I'm reminded of a time I flew into Los Angeles where I was to stay at a woman's house and give a two-day workshop on medical astrology. She was a very controlling individual, what we term a "powerstalker," but at the time, I didn't realize it. However, fifteen minutes after my arrival, a thunderstorm took place and lightning struck the transmitter on the power pole right next to her apartment! Needless to say, I paid attention, and I knew that in this particular case, it was a warning. By being on guard, I averted a lot of unnecessary problems for myself as well as for the people who took this workshop. The Thunderbeings were warning me, and for once, I paid attention.

[watergaze]

Do you have Thunderbeing medicine? If you have an intrinsic love for and awe of thunderstorms, you probably do. If you've been struck by lightning, then the medicine is already yours. This isn't a medicne to play around with lightly. If you take up the medicine, it means that your life will forever be one of continual transformation on personal levels. But it also means that you'll have the responsibility of knowing that when you meet a person or are involved in a situation, you will be a natural catalyst.

We need catalysts in our world to jog us out of our ruts, our blinders-on way of leading our lives.

Sam was certainly a catalyst in my life and, needless to say, he had Thunderbeing medicine. My life changed irrevocably after two years with him. Since understanding this medicine better, I see catalysts all around me. Some are waging a war for Mother Earth, and they are our environmentalists on the front lines. Some are waging war in the name of the homeless, to help them. Some catalyze on a smaller but nonetheless important scale.

We each have a role to play, a path we've chosen to walk in this lifetime. If yours is the life of a catalyst, large or small, then I especially honor your course, because it's not an easy mantle to wear or keep wearing. It brings many responsibilities and demands, but from my perspective, I can't think of anything more healing than to effect positive changes for "all our relations." Can you?

[serloco]

Very cool. I havent read it all yet but surely will continue. I love the idea of shifting perceptions of the skies. I do the same. In my world we have licence plates that read "land of the living skies". Our clouds can be spirits, and the skies are inhabited by many spirits. I also talk tot he skies and thunder and lightning, and have it answer my thoughts and speak words to me. Its quite amazing. I can stop the rain usually, and also create my own lightning. I have had amazing perceptions of the skies, and some scary ones as well. Wind too. Anyways thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Xlyer]

Read through this during lunch break today. It got me interested in the book itself. Being a catalyst sounds fun. Of course there is always the issue of idealization and the like. I like lightning. Fun read looking forward to the book. I hope its on kindle.

[watergaze]

I do not think it is on kindle, but it's on google - see the link I provided. You can download the first 2-3 chapters there as a sample (that is quite a lot since the book is not very thick). 

I put it here because of connections to things we are doing in Ravenfield and I thought if I put it in the public part others might enjoy it too .

For me, personally, this is a very close and also fascinating topic.
 
I find it fun how most of us get curious about the sky and clouds. That exercise she did with moving clouds - I did that too when I was a kid heh, but of my own creativity (no one told me to try it).
My dad is a meteorologist, so I could also name the clouds pretty early on and knew which were of what type and such. I have a close affinity to water in general and to the wind as well. 
I do not know how I got close to this specifically... like the author remembered the instance when she connected with the thunderstorm. I had also times when I went out to the coming storm, but my memory of this is not very good. I do not remember one instance where the connection transpired. There were important things I remembered later and I always find it strange how I could have forgotten them... but so it is .

I am not going to go into how many times I moved and which countries I have lived in and the languages I learned as a consequence and so on and so forth heh .

What I do know now is that I have lightning in my body. It comes up when I am healing or diagnosticizing heh or when I am divining. It starts as a strange tingly feeling in my palms that almost immediately shoots up my arms and into my shoulders, then spreads out. If I am touching, for example, different stones and this sensation comes up when I touch one of them then I know that this is the stone I should work with etc. Or if I work with cards, that is how I know which card to pick. In diagnosis, it tells me which area of the body to focus on. It is a very strange sensation. It kinda tickles a little bit too . But you cant scratch it ofc since it is deep inside the body.
(Sometimes the soles of my feet tingle, but I do not know if that is related or what to make of that yet.) 

Some people told me I gave them the impetus to go into deepening their awareness (shamanism etc). In some instances I know this is taking place, it is like something takes over and I share things and say deeper stuff I would otherwise not have shared in such situations (for example when the person comes and I do not know them even and we are in mixed company and I say something quite inwardly spiritually shamanic lol and it would not be something I would normally decide to do in such a situation. And it is also not that I have to talk to those people specifically, they are just there in the group and listen). In such situations, I am aware of this gentle push on me to shift into that mode and I can choose to follow it or not. If I do then I shift and am not exactly myself (in the way I described). Then I share stuff. Since it happened a couple of times I know now when/why it is taking place. I know sometimes for which person the invitation is extended, but not always (also it does not always have to be in the form of speech sharing). 
One of my favorite interactions, since forever, is finding ways where the person realizes things. I love watching that spark light up in a person's eyes. In some sense when I talk of it here now it is like a lightning seeking for ways how to touch base with the earth. Once it does there is a spark . Ofc sometimes one takes a route that does not go anywhere and has to backtrack hehe .

In this youtube video, one that was shared by glance left in Ravenfield, one can see how the lightning is born and how it makes its path to the earth. The interesting thing I found here is that also what is on the earth responds to the lightning. "As this stepped leader gets close to the earth it has an extraordinary effect on the objects on the ground. They respond to the strong electric field by growing positive streamers. These reach out anywhere between 3 and a few hundred feet above the ground, as seen in these rare photographs. Finally, when a stepped leader and a positive streamer meet the electric charge can drain to earth, resulting in the blinding flash we call lightning."
In this sense, I find it fascinating, that something in the person is also acting like the object on the ground and I would also say this is why when the student is ready a teacher appears .

Another thing that I notice is kinda frequent is that people around me stumble, slip or fall. I was not sure what to attribute that to (just happens quite regularly so it is hard to say it is a coincidence), but thinking in the lines of this topic, it seems it might be related. No one got seriously hurt. The most dangerously looking incident was when a pregnant woman that was walking opposite me/ towards me on a sidewalk fell (this one I did not notice even stumbling, she just kinda was well struck down, maybe a slight faint? hmm). She fell down a couple of meters in front of me. Interestingly, she fell down right in front of a hospital. I do not know what happened to her after she was taken to the hospital. It seemed to me the fall did not injure her but she went for some check up as a precaution. There were people on the sidewalk that tended to her well being and called an ambulance for her (even though the hospital was like 50 meters away they still said they have to send one out lol) and who waited with her for it to come. Since people came to her aid before I could, I also saw my role in the situation was not that kind (we do not always have to be on the front lines of an action/situation). I helped from the fringes in ways only people like us could. 

When these things happen I do not think / find it is related to me specifically.
Lightning, as an actor of/for the spirit (not an actor as performer but actor as in someone who acts/does acts) can stop, can rearrange, can also burn unhealthy stuff. 
Already the first aspect of it - the stopping - is very healthy, I find. Stopping is the start of everything. 

Just a couple of days ago, I was at the Stenness stone ring in Orkneys. There was a family there - parents and a son (later teen years looked like). They were not being very respectful at the place and they did not seem very presently aware. I watched many people come and go (I sat down on the grass a bit off the edge of the circle and observed). This family I noticed because they were standing on the stones and taking pictures. Something in me did not feel it was in sync. But it was not that they stood on a stone that was on the ground (because I do not think they were the only ones who did that), it was something else. Just as I noticed them being so, the boy made maybe 5-7 steps and slipped on/near a stone as he was trying to get close. This was one of the worst falls I have seen because the boy fell with his back on the stone that was quite pointy on top. The boy was visibly in pain for a little bit, he lied down on the grass and waited for the pain to pass, but nothing serious happened to him. Needless to say, he was a lot more careful and respectful afterward. In a little while, I noticed a change in the family. Just before they left the stone ring the boy hugged his dad and the mom was close to them too. They looked like something profound happened to them. It was quite a change from where I was standing. I was amazed at this.

The world is a beautiful place with magic all around us. The opportunities to be moved by spirit are endless.

[Xlyer]

Found a paper back version on amazon looking forward to it.


getting into the spirit of things

A lot of good info in your reply; specifically,
"The world is a beautiful place with magic all around us. The opportunities to be moved by spirit are endless.".
Being able to gift a spark of inspiration. Nice.
I have a passion for this planet and the people therein...
But I just kinda fumble around hoping for the best.
Ive tried before to beckon lightning.
The best success ive had is when its less of a command and more of a petition coupled with a chant.
Also if the possibility for a storm already exists.
Id sit in awe as lightning transverses across the sky.
Reinforcing an idea that will can affect the external world.
Am I deluding my self? Maybe.
But damn the sky looks nice lit up.

[serloco]

Yes, I agree, with respect and with care nature is met as a friend rather then a foe. I like the story don Juan shared with us regarding the removal of wood to create a fire and that don Juan said if we harvested trees to make a fire everything around us would conspire against us to either kill us or to harm is. Or something along those lines. 

Last night I was smoking a cigarette outside in a tent, and found my smoke was moving to my cat. I immediately moved the wind with my attention pulling it upward and around her, away from her. I then said "wind will you do this for me every time?". I love nature and in my awareness when you support nature then nature supports you. Right then the wind became alive and I could very much see the spirit of the wind doing exactly what I had done before, and every time i exhaled the wind carried it straight up, obviously by magical force, and out the door above my cat. 

Also I was, the other day, and the week before, walking in the rain. I had spoken to the rain and said "I love nature and thuds nature loves me, I always do what I can to support the natural world and create nature everywhere I travel out of the world. I carry nature with me always." Then I asked, both times, "can you wait to rain until I am back inside?" Right then, both times, the rain stopped.

[rosygyro]

I really like "Fulgurite" as  a medicine stone.
It is created when lightning strikes sand ..
tends to become melted tubes or collumns of ceramified matter.

[watergaze]

Is there something specific that you use it for or just in general?

That is one interesting piece of stone . Thnx for the tip. I will keep an eye out to see if it crosses my path somewhere.

[watergaze]

Xlyer wrote:Being able to gift a spark of inspiration. Nice.
yes, it is. But I also remember that it can feel weird because my awareness expands and I feel less focused than I usually am. I cannot think in the same way . I feel a bit similar to being spaced out in that sense, though it is a different state. I feel as if I were less sharp as a consequence but I am just less sharp of my own rational accord. I do not specifically like having my rationality blunted heh. I like expanded awareness that is more controlled by me. In general, though, I do not find it tragic if people find me to be foolish or silly. I guess that helps . Plus there is another sensor that is a lot more active which I guess I need in those situations hence the whole thing transpires that way.

At those rare times when it is as if something moved me to move another it is quite magical for me because I feel I am a connecting link between the person and something that is very aware. The space around us in such a situation includes this something. Something that is looking out for us...  

I am now thinking that maybe sometimes someone is moved like this for my benefit too. How wonderful heh. This did not really occur to me before.

.
Xlyer wrote:I have a passion for this planet and the people therein...
But I just kinda fumble around hoping for the best.
That is a great start and continuation .
I guess we all fumble... it depends on who is looking and what kind of description they'd give the stuff we do. I surely tend to think I fumble quite a lot. So... keep up the good work/fumbling .

.
Xlyer wrote:Ive tried before to beckon lightning.
The best success ive had is when its less of a command and more of a petition coupled with a chant.
Also if the possibility for a storm already exists.
Id sit in awe as lightning transverses across the sky.
I think approaching something with this kind of setting and with awe and respect is a good setting for a warrior.

I also do not tend to utilize commands. I think I have written somewhere here at the site before how shamans have 2 techniques of working with spirits/elements/allies/etc. One is commanding, the other is asking/requesting politely. Some prefer one, others prefer another (I find it says a lot about the person too). Maybe in some cases, one does not have a choice, but in many cases one does. I find the method of asking or requesting to be closer to my heart and I also use songs, chants, different music instruments etc. One meaning of beckon is "to appear attractive or inviting" - this imo is achieved through connecting and this can be done through different ways. These creative expressions are, in a typical shamanic way, dedicated to the spirits. It is great if you allow yourself to be moved by say the storm or a tree etc and then put this into an artistic expression. You can even write a story and read it then to the tree etc. There really is no limit to one's imagination .
So, yea, when connecting.... allow your body and soul and spirit to be free and experience and express.
In addition, you can bring other types of gifts and offerings for the spirits as well.

Ask for guidance in terms of how to heal and become more wholesome (which will help you connect with these beings better). And then follow it (oddly enough people can get guidance and not follow it). When people do not follow a message from the spirits it sends them the message that the person is not interested, it can even give the impression that their advice has been spurned. One needs to be respectful and grateful. Always greet and thank the spirits. You can even tell them your name when you greet them.
If you keep at it then this will create a kind of bond and working relationship .
Plus, you do not need to bond with lightning to benefit from lightning/thnuderbeing medicine.
( Also, not all of us can have all types of medicines there are - and there is surely quite a number of options . Someone is better bonded with fire, for example. I would say, though, that having a longing lasting fascination for the element is a good indicator that there is some attraction there . )

.
Xlyer wrote:Reinforcing an idea that will can affect the external world.
Am I deluding my self? Maybe.
But damn the sky looks nice lit up.
I think most of us go through this. Questioning stuff. But then, I like how you sequence this thought and end with the ending. In the end, what matters to me is the magic and awe and wonder and amazement etc that we can experience . I tend to say to disbelievers that to the healed person it really doesn't matter they got a placebo and not the 'real' medicine. The proof is in the pudding mmmm let's have a feast . I always loved pudding - vanilla is my fav .


P.S. Loved the youtube vid .

[Pixie Dust]

I can't think of anything more healing than to effect positive changes for "all our relations." Can you?
I can't think of anything more healing for others or myself.  One of the most difficult roles to play is that of the opposition; whether authentic or inauthentic.  Through kindness (mercy) we learn how to love, through friction do we learn fluidity.  As we serve others do we honor their tonal or spiritual selves?  Sometimes those two are at an opposition to one another.  Imagine loving someone with such oomph that we defy and tear down their tonal self to serve the spiritual self.  To be hated by someone we love with such intensity because we're honoring their spirit and not their ego.

It's a very difficult position for even shamans to take. 

This is assuming the shaman knows what's best and that opinion varies by personal ethics and the life experience of the shaman.  No one shaman can judge another on the best course of action--as each is a different arrangement of APs they've held.  Ideally, no one dies during the process of transformation :/ thunderbeings complicate things by inviting death to visit.  Killing the ego can very easily kill the tonal self; it's risky.

Slow and subtle is the preferred course as the transitions don't need to be bumpy.  Just as there's a reason for fluid transitions, there are reasons for abrupt shifts too.  If timeliness is a significant feature of a situation, then abrupt shifts may be necessary.  Sometimes we can go lifetimes without any sense of urgency.  Other times all we can do is sprint through the shifts in AP.  The situation will often dictate the urgency of the shifts.

Thunderbeings, while intensely rich in power, are unpredictable.  The path of least resistance doesn't play favorites and sometimes everyone gets laid out (including the thunderbeings).  Maybe that's why thunderbeings are so frightening; they bring about a specific outcome without regard to comfort.  

To invite/survive such an ally requires a significant degree of personal and spiritual love.  That frequency, love, is impossible to ignore  Love remains the best stalk I've ever experienced.  I kinda hope I never discover a method more powerful than unconditional love.  I'm a romantic and the theme "love conquers all" seems particularly inviting.  It seems only logical to draw down thunderbeings (masters of destruction and birth) to breathe new life into the dead xD  This follows the same logic as, "I want to live, but first, I must die!"  It's quite humorous when seen in select perspectives.  

Sometimes we can't explain what it is that forces us to love another with such unyielding intensity.  Also, a discussion on love may prove interesting.  What makes love the ultimate stalk?  How can love be such an effective weapon against the ego--of self and others.  Why is love such an effective lubricant for power?

Personally, when I shift into a loving AP there isn't enough room for hate or anger.  Love pervades every part of my awareness.  It seeps into all the dark corners and fills it, occupying the space so that hate or anger can't live there.  Hate and anger cause blindness within the awareness, hence, when I'm authentically stalking I need to avoid those two APs.  Love allows me to avoid blindness.  I don't love because it feels good per-say; I love because loving allows me a greater field of vision.  If I want to be a visionary, love must be a part of that and overcoming anger and hate is self-serving.  What's nice, for me, is that I can be annoyed, authenticly me, many shades of fucked up, and those don't limit my awareness.  It seems only hate and anger are limiting.....so I get to still be me, drink beer, be a justifiable ****, and still get access to neat APs  losing the ego doesn't mean the loss of self.  It means the expression of self. 

I'm curious if you've noticed anything similar regarding love.

[watergaze]

For you dear Pixie Dust... 


(Lyrics here)

I will respond in words later... sometime not too far off... as time allows.

P.S. Like your signature .

[watergaze]

I am not sure how your mind came to link some of the things you write to that one sentence about all our relations . But it sure is interesting....
The author spoke how being a catalyst can be healing... the examples she gave are environmentalists and those who help the homeless (a bit strange example maybe in the sense that we in general focus on a less planetary scale of things here).
The noun catalyst basically means someone that causes change.
chemically: Catalysts are used by chemists to speed up chemical reactions that otherwise would be inconveniently slow.

You quote that sentence and go on to talk about kindness and opposition. This is quite a shift from what the author talked about. I agree that friction is good for fluidity. And warriors live together so that their rough edges get smoothed out.

I sometimes take the role of opposition or questioning in speech to see how the person thinks. It is often not appreciated . People associate it with antagonism and aggression even though I do it out of curiosity, interest, and discovering stuff as well as mapping things out. Plus in the real life interaction people should be able to tell I am not in aggressive or antagonistic mode if they cared to examine the situation, but sadly people are rarely that aware to see that I smile and am calm and have a good mood etc. (On the web this is even harder to use and be understood, I tend not to do that much at all)
So, the difference between what you said about opposition, I assume, and what I say I do here is that I do not adopt any antagonistic emotional or belief markers. I just ask questions and give counter arguments to discover answers to them. So it might be that I am of the opinion A and I got asked before something that I had no answer to. Then a person comes who is of the opinion A, I might ask this to see what they say as an answer. However, the person assumes, incorrectly, that I am of the opposing opinion because I question them. This is of course not hard to avoid if I introduce my questions with an explanation of why I ask. Not everything is that easy though .

To your question of whether to honor tonal or spiritual selves.... If we go in the shamanic way then we honor both. We always take a wholesome approach. Shamanism is holistic. 
Tearing down the 'tonal self'… I do not think that can serve the 'spiritual self'
It is not the aim that one gets destroyed so the other can be alone.
Plus I really do not see why there should be no spiritual in the tonal and such.

But one important thing is this: The talk in my own post was about being moved by Spirit. I do not decide to act as anything for anyone of my own rational judgment in these scenarios. I can see many a hole in people's awareness but I do not attempt to better them in some major way unless I am either in a formal setting of being their teacher and then I try to guide them to the knowledge that my teaching is related to (with maybe a bonus of the side cause that makes it more interesting for me but that still is only by exposure and allowing the person to think or feel into certain things) or if they are a good friend/person with whom I have agreements in place that we can 'teach' each other here and there. The other time is when this comes from outside of myself, as in the example I have in this thread.
I do not decide that this or that person should fall either. I am just trying to be more aware of what is happening and only one time could I actually see something is up before the person fell (the example at the stone rings). One other time - interestingly just a few hours after I wrote that post - another person I was with observed and commented on someone riding a bike just seconds before a fall of the observed (I noticed the same thing before this comment).
Often though I feel that my awareness condensed on the space where the fall happened. This took a couple of times for me to notice and I rarely pick up on it fast enough to actually think or observe it properly. But maybe I am getting better, cause the rings and bicycle example were instances where I also noticed with my more normal awareness.

I am not going to go into the field of Spirit and say that this or that person should not have fallen or that this or that person should - it is not my place. Same with what I expressed about providing a link to someone. But it can be that I hope and wish that it happens for someone close and I think Spirit hears that too and my plea might make a difference who kows .
All one does is allows oneself to be utilized. I know too little to make these decisions.

So, the Spirit makes the decision about which selves it honors - to use your terminology. I do not decide that a person's spiritual self should be served or take precedence or the other way round. This makes it free of my own bs too, my own judgment and preferences. It is much more pure and more safe for the person too.



I do not understand where you made the leap to say that one is then hated by the one they love. 
From what you say, the way you seem to express how it functions, it logically follows that if you do tear down the tonal-ego, as you say, then what stays cannot but love you. So why would you be hated? If that happens then it means there is an error in your judgment of what you assume or think and about how things work and function etc. If it happens that you are hated then there must be something you did not account for. Also, the 'spiritual self' of the person might not take kindly to your intrusions and destruction - I dunno, just an idea.

As I said above, I find that it is the matter of Spirit to decide such things not a person. This is the general problem I have with so called 'stalkers' who just get in somebody's face cause they can or due to their own bent reasons.

------- Oh, now I see how you distinguish between 'tonal self' and 'ego' … before I thought you equate them (you start in the first paragraph by talking of tearing down someone's tonal and that you then may be hated because you honored a persons spirit and not their ego - so to me theas says tonal=ego. But later you sat killing the ego can easily kill the tonal self - so to me this says tonal=/= ego. And then I am like... confused ). It is hard to talk when we do not know what is what when the other person uses these terms. Now maybe what I said above does not apply in the way I thought.
So do you want to kill the ego but not the tonal self? Cause before you said you want to destroy the tonal to aid the spiritual. I would ask for greater language precision. Please clarify .
If you speak of killing the ego then that should serve the whole of the person -both the spiritual and tonal self.  
Also, ego is a kind of mind construct. Hard to actually see through. In shamanic terms, we rather speak of self-importance. Self-importance is a term that actually states what it is and one can easily see it in action. Interestng shift, right? ------

So, say you decide I should be less 'tonal' and more 'spiritual' (whatever that means for you and however you assign that is a different matter) then you start exerting pressure on me to be so. I am stressed and do not have the opportunity to devote my resources to the next step that I see in my evolution/growth, instead, I am diverted by your pressure to your agenda for myself. Do you think that helps me? I would say higher chances are that it hurts me more than it helps me.
I do not do these things to people. I try to support them in working on stuff, but not by hijacking their path. Cause who am I to divert other people's paths? (without their consent)

If a shaman does something when moved by Spirit in that moment they don’t feel love or hate as difficult. They are in a different state. Once one comes back to 'normal' and some of that appears from the person who was being affected or the ones around that witnessed it.... then it can be a pity of course, but the shaman knows they did what they did because Spirit moved them to and was mixed in there and that it was good (plus, it is usual for the shaman to ask for consent or are asked to be helped by the person). In this sense, I somehow think that spirit also cushions the shaman. I am rarely in this position since I do not do much shamanic work. The shaman must have it taken care of in some way. For me, the people spirit moves in these stranger ways are usually not in my immediate personal circle plus there are times when the people themselves cannot always focus on me as someone who had something to do with it - like with the falls - especially since I really didnt have anything much to do with it personally. A normal person cannot really say I fell because you are here . So they are not antagonistic to me.
Usually, at least for me, the work of spirit is so pure that there is nothing to complain about. And surely nothing to hate.

Btw I am not sure that the falls are the best thing as such. I'd rather a more gentle approach than having people fall. But it is not me who decides that. Maybe in the future I will be able to...
See... like with the pregnant woman falling... she went for a check up and that might have been important. Some people fall because they are in bad states and then they get up and their state got shifted by the fall. Some people are in a terrible hurry, like at the train station, and they are not paying attention, they may stumble but realize they need to be more aware and careful. This is also in the mountains. People hike and need to be aware etc.
As long as people do not get hurt and are possibly saved from being hurt then it is ok, I think. But all in all I do not know enough to see how exactly this fall or stumbling affects them so it is hard to have a decided opinion .

.
Pixie wrote:This is assuming the shaman knows what's best and that opinion varies by personal ethics and the life experience of the shaman.  No one shaman can judge another on the best course of action--as each is a different arrangement of APs they've held.
There are a few things to be said here too .
The shaman encompasses different APs even while not having lived the life of those in the real world. Kinda like knowing what it is to be a mother even though one never had an offspring. A mother might falsely assume that someone who does not have kids would not know what it is like to be a mother.
No one shaman should be judging much. They should connect to Spirit and be moved by it to do things.
But I think they can have an opinion of other shamans in the sense of how they do their 'job'.

.
Pixie wrote: Ideally, no one dies during the process of transformation :/ thunderbeings complicate things by inviting death to visit.  Killing the ego can very easily kill the tonal self; it's risky.  
Slow and subtle is the preferred course as the transitions don't need to be bumpy.  Just as there's a reason for fluid transitions, there are reasons for abrupt shifts too.  If timeliness is a significant feature of a situation, then abrupt shifts may be necessary.  Sometimes we can go lifetimes without any sense of urgency.  Other times all we can do is sprint through the shifts in AP.  The situation will often dictate the urgency of the shifts.  
Isn't every element linked to death? - fire kills, water kills, lightning kills. Similar with many allies - bears, wolves, jaguars, lions, etc. 

What you say of course makes sense, I'd just like it to be put into perspective better.

Yes, I agree on the urgency and that transitions don't need to be bumpy and such. But you seem to link thunderbeings to abruptness and danger of death and such. This is interesting because I somehow tend to think I am linked with the thunderbeings due to things I expressed in my posts above, however I am very much in the slow and subtle lane. Not in the shock and abrupt shift lane (in my own development as well as in the way I influence those around me in general). I would not be quick in attributing shock and death to thunderbeings. I do not see it mentioned in the article I posted either (apart from those who wanted to bond with it and died as a consequence).

I think that lighting is just one of the tricks up thunderbeings' sleeves . If you remember a thunderstorm… a lot more happens in it than just lightning. I specifically love the air before the storm and as it approaches. The smell, the feel that is in the air, the approaching energy... Seeing the lightning bolts from afar…. I also love the after space . We had a lightning storm just this night. I was watching the bolts through a window in town and then went home in a gentle after-rain. Today in the morning I really enjoyed the air and the feel of the earth.
I do not associate thunderbeings with death any more than I do water. But, for some reason, we tend to think lightning is more dangerous. Did you know that a lot more people die in water per year than they do due to lightning?
Curious about if my feeling is right about this I google:
"From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents."
"U.S. has averaged 47 reported lightning fatalities per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck by lightning are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability.  More recently, in the last 10 years (2007-2016), the U.S. has averaged 30 lightning fatalities."
Other fatalities linked to thunderstorms are due to:
floods from thunderstorms have accounted for about 70 deaths per year
lightning has caused an average of 55 fatalities per year
thunderstorm winds cause an average of 31 deaths per year
hail causes an average of one

To compare with fire I found:
"Roughly one in every 320 households per year had a reported home fire during this five-year period. These fires caused an estimated average of 2,570 civilian deaths"
And that is only household fires, there are other types of fires too.

=> thunderbeings are by far the less deadly than water or fire beings .

.
Pixie wrote:Thunderbeings, while intensely rich in power, are unpredictable.  The path of least resistance doesn't play favorites and sometimes everyone gets laid out (including the thunderbeings).  Maybe that's why thunderbeings are so frightening; they bring about a specific outcome without regard to comfort.  
What do you mean that the thunderbeings get laid out? .
I'd say that each medicine can be gentle or disruptive, healing or poisonous. 
Every element takes the path of least resistance - fire, water, etc. And is also unpredictable in certain degrees. Lightning is predictable in that it will rather strike metal than rubber. Fire is predictable in that it burns flammable stuff. Etc. And water can be unpredictable (as shown in the drowning number). Many people die every year because they do not think or realize that water can be unpredictable.
I do not think any element plays favorites any more or less than lightning

---------------

To the topic of love... I find what you say about how love can be helpful for survival lol can also be applied to other things. Not feeling certain emotions is lifesaving in certain situations. Facing predators with (sober) love instead of fear or aggression can make quite a difference.

One of the reasons why in my reply to Xlyer I talk of bettering the relationship with the ally/element/spirits/etc. and allowing oneself to be moved by them and then composing and such and sharing it with them afterward is to grow the love and link/connection.

As you point out some emotions cannot be there in the same boat with love and most of those are not very nice emotions to carry around in one's boat. You mention hate and anger. I would mention envy, jealousy, venom/ire (that is actually an emotion in my language but the dictionary is not cooperating heh, guess it’s a type of anger). Spite, malice, rancor… etc.

I would be careful with using the word 'love' though cause well there are unhealthy forms of love and sadly they are still called love. I would rather advise to foster emotions such as gratitude, humbleness, gratefulness, awe, amazement, curiosity, wonder… etc. Emotions that help open up one's heart. Once those are around the love that is has a much higher chance to be the healthy kind .  (a note needs to be put here saying that this open heart is not to be defenseless)
Some say love binds and in a sense that is true. So one needs to be careful and look to find the right setting of love.

Only a certain type of love is a great tool for battling the ego/self-importance .
Love opens our hearts and with an open heart can we be receptive to Spirit. I assume your term 'power' is synonymous with my use of the term 'Spirit' (because what I call 'power' is not really very dependent on love.)
If one is closed one cannot make connections with beings around…  cannot interact with Spirit easily.

Some would say love also causes a certain type of blindness…
Every AP does, does it not?

What is the difference between being angry and being annoyed? Are you not angry when you are annoyed? You use the terms as if they were not linked:
Pixie wrote:I can be annoyed, authenticly me, many shades of fucked up, and those don't limit my awareness.  It seems only hate and anger are limiting
.
Pixie wrote:
 losing the ego doesn't mean the loss of self.  It means the expression of self. 
Indeed, losing 'ego' means losing 'self-importance' not the self. Ego is linked to the mind and that is linked to being self-important. The mind though does not have to be self-important and one does not have to eliminate the mind as such. 'Just' balance it.
Self-expression is not linked to ego/self-importance as such. It can be an expression of ego/self-importance if ego/self-importance is part of the self, that is all.

So, yea, I have noticed similar things with regard to love. I have also seen how disarming love can be as a weapon in battle. But I have also seen that some people do not listen to their hearts and one should not delude themselves that love can solve all.
It is fascinating though how love/an open heart and warm affection can affect a seemingly rational, cold or militant nature.

[serloco]

With the right knowledge and placement of power, love can indeed conquer all. Think about it, everything is intent right? If you intent that your love cant solve a battle then indeed it wont be able to. But how do you define love? That is what should be examined. Perceptions of love can be mastered, controlled, enhanced and empowered. Not everyone loves the same but with the right kind of love great things can be done. DOnt underestimate the power love holds. Sure many dont listen to their hearts and their hearts are underdeveloped but those people still want to be loved and if they dont think they do then they are wrong. Love feels amazing, to anyone. The right kind of love can move anyone to do anything.

[watergaze]

serloco, all I wanted to achieve by saying what I said about love not solving everything always is that it is best not to put all your eggs in one basket hehe

Try the love approach on all... but have other strategies available as well.

for example, if the spirit saved my neck a few times should I count on it to do so always and therefore not look for or utilize my own strategies to be more aware of danger and be able to avoid it, etc?

[Pixie Dust]

Watergaze,

Sometimes my grouping of concepts can seem confusing, I agree.  Though like most mysteries if enough time is spent gazing, understanding is possible.  A and M are connected, but it does look confusing if one misses the 11 letters that come between them.  

What the author spoke on regarding kindness and opposition may be a bit shifted from what I commented on.  Generally, authors can be received in many ways, conventionally and unconventionally, and the eyes of the reader play an important role.  I suppose I could've rehashed the intent of the author for further dissection but you covered much of that yourself.  Instead of that, I was developing a different branch to flush out the idea-tree you offered.  

Lol and yes, the act of questioning can sometimes not be appreciated.  How others receive us in a complex interplay of communication.  You may believe all you're doing is observing and questioning and in a very simplistic form that is true.  Yet, there is a difference of intent and personality also plays a part.  In text, "Pixie what are you doing?!" can mean a variety of things dependent upon who is saying it and what they are commenting on (context).  A question is not only a question.  A question is a melting pot of intent, personality, context, and intelligence (and probably more factors).  Hoping that others understand us well enough to know that we're not being hormonal or passive aggressive is a very high expectation.  People are many personalities throughout the day.  Did we eat breakfast, have our coffee, meet an annoying personality on the subway, listen to uplifting music, receive supportive feedback from superiors?  A question is not only a question but a form of complex communication.  

I agree with what you said, that it's not the aim one gets destroyed so the other can be alone.  Yet sometimes tearing is necessary.  It's not "nice", but for some, it's preferred and the only thing that will work.  Kris is a fine example of this method.  He uses it on others because it's what worked for him.  That method isn't your preference and thus you don't use it.  I'm a mixed-plate and enjoy receiving and giving in all sorts of combinations.  Methods should be dependent upon the personality receiving assistance.  Unless one-size approaches work for everyone... but I'm highly suspicious of those because I've met numerous deviants who don't fit one-sized applications.

When it comes to seeing holes in the awareness of others, you may not intend to be a catalyst for anyone, but your mere existence serves as one.  You can either be aware of your impact or pretend you don't have one.  But.  You have one and your impact will be determined by the others who are perceiving and experiencing your specific AP.  Understanding your impact, even if you don't intend to have one, can help limit miscommunication.  Again, you don't know too little to make decisions regarding how your awareness can be utilized.  You govern over a website that is based on magic--you of all people should have some self-awareness regarding how you want to have an impact.  Haven't you already made that decision?  Look at the impact you've had--if all of this had been unintended, imagine what you could with intent.

My hate comments are intended in the context that sometimes helping people requires tearing off portions of their ego that people aren't ready to let go of.  Kris was famous for this it's not the most tactful method, but it's efficient.  People are hated when they use this method because it stings.  It's like ripping off a band-aid.  I appreciate a good dose of pain, so I'm not very hateful.  Others though, the people who refuse to use that form of efficiency... well.... they tend to be the more hateful folk.  

You come from the school of thought that decisions are best left to Spirit.  Not a person.  That's a troublesome position because people are capable of accessing Spirit.  Spirit speaks through nature, synchronicity, and the challenges that repeat until we learn the lesson they offer for our Spirit.  If we ignore the omens and rely on Spirit to be the actor or instigator, then we become a pawn in our own lives.  At what point do we take an active role in our own lives and in those we care for?  If we have the power to benefit others should we sit back and let Spirit decide their fate?  Like if we see a biker get into a car accident, do we walk away from that entanglement and let Spirit sort the corpses?  Or do we run over and apply pressure to bloody surfaces and speak to the person until Emergency Medical Services arrive?  You seem like the type with a big heart who would intervene between others and Spirit.

To clarify because you asked... lol... language can certainly be imprecise: the tonal meaning physical manifestation of self (the physical body and physical reality aka matter).  Ego meaning awareness (or lack of awareness aka non-matter).  What I meant was when people tear down the tonal (which sure, can sometimes mean ego too) the person responsible for that progression can be hated.  Killing the ego can kill the tonal if someone has too much ego (disconnection with Spirit).  The tonal can die if it doesn't have enough Spirit to fall back on--reflecting the idea that it's good not to have all eggs in one basket.  

What I want to do is complicated xP Sometimes killing the ego frees the Spirit within a person so yeah, sometimes I want to kill ego.  I never said I wanted to destroy the tonal to aid the spiritual.  I said sometimes it's necessary to destroy the tonal to aid the spiritual.  Ideally, I don't think I would ever deem it necessary to destroy an entire tonal (aka murder).  I'm not that much of an extremist.  There have been sketchy situations where I've stripped a lot of the tonal away from an individual or two.... and those were incredibly messy situations.  Ones that were even a bit too close for comfort for even myself... but those situations orchestrated themselves (Spirit was at fault).  

I hope that clarifies?  I can clarify further because it feels like I didn't do a great job identifying the source of confusion.  Not sure, I'll see what you say lol.

Ideally killing of the ego should serve the tonal and spiritual, I agree with your conclusion.  Ego is a form of mental construct and yes, it's abstract as it's not matter.  I view ego as an unevolved form of self-importance.  Self-importance is necessary as it allows self-care to take center stage.  Definitely an interesting shift.

Your thoughts on hijacking peoples paths are interesting.  You say you won't hijack paths, but your mere presence (the presence of anyone) has the potential to hijack paths.  Easy scenario: I walk into a banquet hall with my wife--there are other men around who are more dashing in their suits, obviously have more money, and I'm petty.  All those men just hijacked my path (for the moment).  Or I walk into an insane asylum and pretend to be the only sane person present; this is hijacking.  Or I'm a fitness model and walk into a weight watchers clinic; I'm hijacking.  Or I'm an esteemed writer going to a writing course for beginners; I'm hijacking (unles I'm the teacher).  We hijack paths so frequently that we can either be aware of ourselves and the potential impact and make adjustments for those--or we can ignore ourselves and expect Spirit to save the life of a bloody cyclist.  Even when we are positive and share acts of kindness can we hijack someones path.  Your love for everyone has hijacked my path.  So whether or not you care to admit it--you're a path hijacker.

You mention not wanting to hurt people but damn it, you're going to learn something right now.  When you are kind to mean people, KINDNESS can hurt them.  Kindness gives mean people hope and hope is one of the most dangerous things to give a person.  So--if you don't want to hurt mean people then you have to be mean to them, but that would be mean toward your Spirit.  So what are you gonna do eh?  I'll tell you what I would do.  I would be kind to a mean person, violate their tonal and tear down that ego, and serve their spirit.  xP  In all fairness I've also been mean to a mean person because my spirit flows both ways and sometimes I prefer to be self-serving.  Depends on whether I've had coffee.  Just because you think kindness doesn't hurt, doesn't mean it can't be a weapon to disarm even the darkest of people.  You wouldn't believe the number of cranky old men who've wept uncontrollably because someone loved them unconditionally; usually, these scenarios have involved young children giving them hugs.

Thunderbeings can be laid out meaning the teacher is always impacted by the students.  Gods and God-like-beings are always impacted by those they govern.  Sometimes even the almighty gets laid out by the insignificant beings.  It is nice to be laid out on occasion...it means something surprised someone.  

I enjoyed what you said about the elements.  One thing to note, while lightning may not be as big a death dealer as the other elements overall--keep in mind in Colorado we have a higher rate of death by lightning strikes than other locations.  I'm not nerdy enough to understand why that is, but if I'm guessing it has something to do with being higher in elevation.  "Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines" (can't remember the author).  So location-based features may play a significant factor in the possibility of death regarding the elements.  While lightning may not be high-risk for you, I sure as hell won't go for a hike in Colorado during a storm.  I don't worry about fires in Hawaii, but I do in California.  Elemental death rates aren't quite as simple as you make them appear lol.

What you said about love is enjoyable.  Sure, envy can be looped into hate and anger, but envy is often sourced from feelings of hate and anger (just like the other emotions like jealousy, ire, malice).  

I would definitely agree with you in that every AP has a type of blindness involved.  It's why I love to play host to thousands of APs.....  I don't like being blind.  I've found blindness to be divisive so the more the merrier.  

Being annoyed is different than being angry or hateful (at least for me).  Like I'm terribly annoyed with ignorance.  I don't hate ignorant people because I can't control them.  I can control myself, so I can hate myself.  Annoyance doesn't have to lead to anger either (though it can).  I view anger as very similar to hate--it's a passionate dislike.  So maybe the easiest way to explain this is I view hate on the far right and annoyance on the far left...but they both share the same spectrum.  So they're similar, but each is a difference of intensity.  I try to avoid anger/hate because chaos often unfolds when I reach those extremes....so I try to be proactive in my self-care by taking breaks when I notice cracks in my awareness.  Distancing myself from stressful situations allows me to rebalance; it's why I always have breaks in my presence at Sorcery and if I'm persuaded not to take breaks--chaos unfolds for this reason.  I WISH people would remind me to take breaks for self-care purposes lol.  Like, "GO AWAY, PIXIE, SO YOU'LL STOP BEING A MASSIVE B*TCH TO EVERYONE."  I would be like, "Well sh*t you're absolutely right I am being bitchy and would benefit from a self-care break.  THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING MY MENTAL WELLNESS!"  Seriously.  I wish this were a thing people did with one another.

[watergaze]

Pixie wrote:A and M are connected, but it does look confusing if one misses the 11 letters that come between them.  
yea, don't get me wrong. All I wanted is for you to clarify. It is one of the interesting concepts that you bring forth. Something 'kinda' relevant to us here .
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Pixie wrote:What the author spoke on regarding kindness and opposition may be a bit shifted from what I commented on. (...)  Instead of that, I was developing a different branch to flush out the idea-tree you offered.
I do not mind that you shifted a little from what I saw in the article because I see it is interesting and also something I encounter myself and have to come to terms with. Is it linked to thunderbeings? I would say yes, in the sense that lightning and thunder or storms and big winds etc. are seen to be in opposition to humans in general. Plus if the thunderbeings' spirit leads us here maybe something interesting will pop out of it .
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Pixie wrote:Hoping that others understand us well enough to know that we're not being hormonal or passive aggressive is a very high expectation.
I realized it is not a common occurrence that people actually take in the context before deciding how to react. I find it sad. But then I am not perfect either.
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Pixie wrote:I agree with what you said, that it's not the aim one gets destroyed so the other can be alone.  Yet sometimes tearing is necessary.  It's not "nice", but for some, it's preferred and the only thing that will work.
I know that sometimes tearing is necessary. I am not against tearing in those cases. What is important to me is that my self-importance does not decide when this is necessary but something else inside me that I am connected with That Spirit etc guides me in this. Why? Because I trust Spirit more than I trust my self-importance . It is quite important to me that I don't cut off a foot (just because I can) when it has a blue toe (due to bumping into something etc.).
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Pixie wrote:Kris is a fine example of this method.  He uses it on others because it's what worked for him. That method isn't your preference and thus you don't use it.
I do not know if Kris' method is what we speak of really (i have not seen him tear down anyone's ego), but let's say he tries for this. It can happen that he can do a lot of damage and stop someone flat on their path. It might take this person years to get moving again. The worst I do with my preferred method is that I do nothing. The person is, in effect, unaffected. Plus just because I prefer something doesn't mean it is the only tool in my tool box. But it is better to start gently and then if strength is needed you can always add that later. Why not allow the person to first move on their own and do as much of their own stuff as they can? Nevertheless, even with not preferring these strong forceful methods, like I said, I still have sometimes pretty strong effect on a person. Even when I do not intend to have such a strong effect. In this sense, I find that is better of my own accord. If needed, Spirit has ways.
I do not see myself as people savior. I am me, who wants can learn from me, just like I learn from you or other people.
But you see we talk about two things here as if they were one. When I was talking about how one should be moved by Spirit I speak of something specific and when I speak of me having preferences and such for my normal life interactions then I speak of another something. Your response seems to mix these two together. They are of course not completely separate, but they are by far not the same either.
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Pixie wrote:I'm a mixed-plate and enjoy receiving and giving in all sorts of combinations.  Methods should be dependent upon the personality receiving assistance.  Unless one-size approaches work for everyone... but I'm highly suspicious of those because I've met numerous deviants who don't fit one-sized applications.
I agree that methods should be dependent on what the receiver needs. Though also on what the giver is comfortable with. As a person working with people, one should learn that equality and balance do not mean giving the same thing to each member of a group. It is already pretty good that the person is fair and such, but not impeccable. Of course, it might not be easy to figure out what each different individual needs. Often I see that a person, say, for example, a teacher knows some people/students of the group they teach better and can give them a bit better what they need, but many of the students are still getting stuff in the fairness principle because the teacher doesn't know them that well. This can create tension too. I wonder sometimes if it's not better to then 'just' be fair. Other than a student thinking why does the other student get what they need but not me?
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Pixie wrote:When it comes to seeing holes in the awareness of others, you may not intend to be a catalyst for anyone, but your mere existence serves as one.  
I intend to be helpful to others. I carry my general setting that is such that it allows me to be a catalyst even when I am not overtly intending to be that for the person. (Even when not overtly thinking I want to affect that and that person.... still, because I have a general setting of wanting to aid people and affect good changes for them... I affect people I dont specifically think of or focus on affecting).
Plus: I allow, I don't force. Unless I have a reason to.
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Pixie wrote:You can either be aware of your impact or pretend you don't have one.  But.  You have one and your impact will be determined by the others who are perceiving and experiencing your specific AP.  Understanding your impact, even if you don't intend to have one, can help limit miscommunication.
I do not understand why you mention miscommunication. Please elaborate on that point you are making . Why would there be miscommunication? Do you mean with those people or here with you? Or?
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Pixie wrote:Again, you don't know too little to make decisions regarding how your awareness can be utilized.
Did you mean to say I know too little to make decisions? Cause the negative in that sentence does not make as much sense hehe
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Pixie wrote:You govern over a website that is based on magic--you of all people should have some self-awareness regarding how you want to have an impact.  Haven't you already made that decision?  Look at the impact you've had--if all of this had been unintended, imagine what you could with intent.
I see you ask the question of what I intend that I touched upon a few lines above. Like I said, I have a general setting. This setting helps grow and learn... helps change and evolve... helps become healthier and more balanced. it is a nurturing setting. Those around me can profit from it.
This means that things go in ways I might not have decided on before. What you suggest would basically mean I decide on something that I think is right and then go after it. Yes, then I would at some point reach that or close to that goal. But what if what is best is not that but something else? Not having a grealty decided upon thing just one that I intuit and glean off of from where I am led, means that I go in maybe other directions and areas than what I would have decided.
When I came here to the site I had a pretty clear idea what I wanted and what I would like. If I had let my self-importance decide to fight for that we would have a different site now than we do. Would it be better? Who knows . Of course, the politeness and decency of interaction would be the first thing I would fight for and remove those who cannot keep to it. This would mean that some of our regulars would not be present and many would have gone a lot sooner than they did... and they would not leave of their own accord. Not doing that allowed the regulars to shift a bit and those who couldnt to leave off their own accord. Now, I am getting something closer to what I wanted and it is a lot less intrusive. Though of course it is years later. But back then people were probably just not ready for it.
One could say that the intent or setting that I want is also respected to a big degree but it is not the only thing that is respected. Other things are taken into account that I myself at that time could not know. This is why it is better to not act out of one's own ego/self-importance but to go with Spirit.
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Pixie wrote:Kris is a fine example of this method.  He uses it on others because it's what worked for him.
I do not think Kris tore off people's ego (and I wonder if he himself is without an ego, but I do wish it for him if that was /is his aim). I mean, he went hardest on Sen. Did he tear off his ego? . He maybe tried to do that... i dunno...
Pixie wrote:My hate comments are intended in the context that sometimes helping people requires tearing off portions of their ego that people aren't ready to let go of.  Kris was famous for this it's not the most tactful method, but it's efficient.  People are hated when they use this method because it stings.  It's like ripping off a band-aid.  I appreciate a good dose of pain, so I'm not very hateful.  Others though, the people who refuse to use that form of efficiency... well.... they tend to be the more hateful folk.  
From what I saw the hate comes from those who the person tries to impact or 'help'. I do not mind pain of my own, but I mind the ego/self-importance in the person trying to 'help'. I mind they think they know what is best for me and what I need and that they think they are the ones who need to give it to me. I like my own choices and I choose people or circumstances that educate me and give me also pain. I can stand that to a degree that is surprising. I don't need some idiots coming by and swearing and abusing me to push me they don't even know where. And that is the problem... they really do not have control of what is happening. They are not able to cushion when needed and they are not able to maneuver properly. All they do is poke here and there to inflict some pain or bent responsiveness.

The thing I said still stands imo... if you help someone and actually help them get rid of their ego they are not hateful. If they are hateful it means you failed and just made things worse. If this is what happens then it would have been better had you left that person alone. I have not seen this process happen, this getting rid of ego, and I have seen many stalks by many stalkers who came by here. And all of them, I thought, we kinda lame (this lameness can be dicplayed on more levels, one can be the execution of the stalkd and such another can be the fact that they need to stalk. If you need to do it and cannot resist doing it then there is something bent there - hence alarm bells should go off). I saw what the shaman does to help people and how the people are stalked. But this stalking is quite different to what happens here at the site by the so called stalks here. I would not call the latter stalking because it is so different that it then gets confusing to have the same term for it. The main difference is that with the shaman there is Spirit present. Here in the 'stalks' of these passers by at our site it is not - or to such a small degree I do not really consider it around as such or at least as much .

I do not understand what gives people the audacity and the self-importance that they think they can be somebody's savior and have the right to do whatever they deem necessary to 'better' these people. Remember how you felt when Dok tried to help you? I say this because you reacted badly and he did not even go along the lines of what I write here. A shaman does not do unsolicited work, we respect the freedom of others. We do not force them into change. Of course, then there are the effects that we have so to speak on the side. Not the ones we covertly specifically intend for a specific person.

We have to be aware that nothing is black and white. I say these things as general things. I'm sure there are exceptions. For example, sometimes the spirit of a person or just spirits might come to ask for help. Or we just normally with our spirit and love hold healing settings for the country and beings in our world. The more aware I think though the more one can communicate with all sorts of beings and ask their allowance. If one cannot ask does that mean one cannot be helpful? Surely not.... but here one runs a risk of not being helpful at all or being counter-helpful.

There is a good anecdote in CC about a snail. I took away from it this: The person who takes the snail and puts it on the side of the road does so because he or she wants to help the snail - nice gesture one would think. But is one helping the snail? How does one know where the snail wants to go or would have gone? is one not hindering the snail? And what does one act out of? Often it is an act out of fear or pity and can also be that one wants to feel helpful. One probably also shocks the poor snail. If the snail asks to be helped then that would be helpful towards a decision . Snails in CC, however, do not speak haha. And sometimes even those that ask for help are better to be left to do the thing themselves, maybe with a bit of encouragement from our side.
This is the story:
CC wrote:One day when I was with him in the city, I picked up a snail that was in the middle of the sidewalk and tucked it safely under some vines. I was sure that if I had left it in the middle of the sidewalk, people would sooner or later have stepped on it. I thought that by moving it to a safe place I had saved it.
Don Juan pointed out that my assumption was a careless one, because I had not taken into consideration two important possibilities. One was that the snail might have been escaping a sure death by poison under the leaves of the vine, and the other possibility was that the snail had enough personal power to cross the sidewalk. By interfering I had not saved the snail but only made it lose whatever it had so painfully gained.
I wanted, of course, to put the snail back where I had found it, but he did not let me. He said that it was the snail's fate that an **** crossed its path and made it lose its momentum. If I left it where I had put it, it might be able again to gather enough power to go wherever it was going.
I thought I had understood his point. Obviously I had only given him a shallow agreement. The hardest thing for me was to let others be.
Indeed it is an important thing to learn to let other be . Because sometimes that is the best thing for them.
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Pixie wrote:When it comes to seeing holes in the awareness of others, you may not intend to be a catalyst for anyone, but your mere existence serves as one. You can either be aware of your impact or pretend you don't have one.
Yes, sometimes it happens that we function as a kind of force for change... but its not the same as focusing on someone specific and forcing them to adhere to our personal standards.  And here we talk of awareness and well things a bit more than just you gotta stick to your forum rules and guidelines or be polite when interacting with people etc.
Maybe it is not too easy to draw the line what is small flies and what are elephants. But say in shamanism it can be opening a person to other types of awareness (changing the fundaments of their reality) or doing an extraction or a soul retrieval for them (a changing experience that they might need to be prepared for etc) and in normal world there are things like fostering a polite space like here at the site.
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Pixie wrote:You govern over a website that is based on magic--you of all people should have some self-awareness regarding how you want to have an impact.  Haven't you already made that decision?  Look at the impact you've had--if all of this had been unintended, imagine what you could with intent.
The website... actually I know what I want from the website. It is not about me having impact on others though heh. But then you could say that my intent manifesting generates a kind of impact. Plus no one here really would say I had an impact on them. They learn their things and use the space provided. The thing that is interesting to me and I understand that it can be frustrating to many but thank Spirit not to me is that say I have regular talks with someone maybe even exercise work and such and then the person at some point encompasses some knowledge and then they can even repeat my words and not realize that I said them before because it comes then from their own learning. They do not think I taught that to them. And should they? Even if it was my intention that they grow and learn about that they give credit to themselves. You can say the same words to 10 people and maybe one of them or none will actually learn anything.
In general, I am so 'normal' with my influence that the people don't even realize they have been influenced heh. Because all that happened was that I opened or showed some paths or areas and they then explored them and learned stuff. They could just as well not have gone exploring, and many don't. And I dare say this kind of interacting with people is much more successful for raising their awareness level than the type of stalking than many people coming here to the site utilize. More so probably because it is not about showing impact on others.  Showoffs are indeed self-important. Plus many people are reluctant to take in the teaching of others but not so if they are the ones who realize it and teach it to themselves. Many of us are too stubborn to take in the good things that others tell us and the more forceful they are about it the more counter-force we employ.

It is not for nothing that the CC books speak of tricks. People need to be tricked. Not forced, clubbed and battered into whatever heh. In general. There is always that petty tyrant method... but that is already warrior style. A normal person would evade the petty tyrant not go head on into such a situation. Being aware, with a petty tyrant a warrior has already chosen to battle and learn and work on themselves. To me it seemed that Kris was a better petty tyrant to Sen than anything else. Petty tyrants are not teachers though they can in spite of themselves teach something to an aware person.

But... am I tricking these people I almost influence heh? Nah. If so then the trick is for the mind not for the spirit or the soul.  And that is very very important. I am sincere and open. The trick is only in the fact that I might make something more attractive to their mind as well. And of course, they don't realize how far the rabbit hole goes. But there is no way to tell them that. This is just how it is. I had no idea what I was getting myself into either . But one does not do anything one doesn't want to do really. So in that sense, it doesn't matter.

[watergaze]

Pixie wrote:You come from the school of thought that decisions are best left to Spirit.  Not a person.  That's a troublesome position because people are capable of accessing Spirit.  Spirit speaks through nature, synchronicity, and the challenges that repeat until we learn the lesson they offer for our Spirit.
Here it makes no sense to me that you say it is troublesome that we are capable of accessing Spirit. It makes sense to me to say that it would be troublesome if Spirit was INaccessible to us. I first thought you meant to write INcapable, but reading you further that does not make sense either .
I don't think I get the point you are making in that paragraph. It does not make sense to me.

I am saying that a shaman when doing decisions concerning how to help a person needs to have a link with Spirit and listen to it. It takes a good shaman to be such. People who work on their progress and de-bsing themselves are generally not at such an advanced stage - if they were they would not ignore omens nor need many repetitions. They might have a link here and there but are also very often in a foggy and/or in a disconnected state. Having a link to Spirit is not related or does not mean one is a pawn in one's own life. If we ignore the omens then there are other things that may happen or not happen. All in all, most people have the freedom to live the life they choose. Spirit is not a jailer. It allows people to stay in their chosen jails. It aids them to get out if they so want. And a few it kicks out. How it chooses which are which? I have no clue. But I am surely not going to start kicking everyone .
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Pixie wrote:If we have the power to benefit others should we sit back and let Spirit decide their fate?
If we have power to benefit others and a link to spirit then I am sure this power will be utilized well.
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Pixie wrote: Like if we see a biker get into a car accident, do we walk away from that entanglement and let Spirit sort the corpses?  Or do we run over and apply pressure to bloody surfaces and speak to the person until Emergency Medical Services arrive?  You seem like the type with a big heart who would intervene between others and Spirit.
I have not been in a situation where spirit indicated to me that I should let someone die. Have you?
You seem to put Spirit in a very passive role. I don't know why you do that. I am not agreeing with you . In my experience, the best way to get things done that concern life and awareness is to listen to Spirit and not one's self-importance.

The type of help that is most needed sometimes escapes us (our awareness/mind) and this is why say if we don't listen and just act on what we think is best or on our fear etc and say run to try to prolong the life of someone that had an accident we might actually make stuff worse for the poor person. Maybe what we need to do as a shamanic practitioner is talk to the spirit of the person and help him or her prepare for the transition (it can make a very big difference if the person dies prepared or unprepared). Not beat at his or her chest and blow into his or her mouth etc. I am sure you understand it on this example. Hence I hope you can understand what I meant before.

All in all, it is not like you need to stop and ask for guidance to make every step. But the big decisions of affecting another person in a major way are something I would prefer to have backed up by Spirit. Sadly many people don't care what happens to people they mess/interact with (they care more about them having done what they think is right or needed by societal rules than what might actually be more helpful than that).

I do not ask the Spirit if I should go to the bathroom. There are decisions and Decisions.
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Pixie wrote:You come from the school of thought that decisions are best left to Spirit.
It is not just about decisions it is about the shaman needing to make a shift, a move to a different AP etc. The shaman when in healing move utilizes the power of the Spirit. Same in other modes. One has a lot more good and precise impact when one moves with Spirit. It would be idiotic to leave Spirit out of the equation.
Like I said we are not talking here about going to the loo. One can ask the Spirit little things ofc too... like what present to give someone and such. But the big things... if a shaman leaves the Spirit out of that they do not aid themselves or the person they are trying to aid.
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Pixie wrote: You seem like the type with a big heart who would intervene between others and Spirit.
You imply that the aim of the person and the aim of Spirit differs. Do you think Spirit wants someone dead that could be saved? This is a bit too theoretical for me but you seem to be implying this. I would say that whatever the case a person needs to do stuff to the best of their ability and in sync with their spirit/soul - their own and the other persons' (I presonally would prefer that a person lives and would do what I can for that but if I push and force this onto the situation and onto a person that it does not help anymore I may not only be unhelpful but I may make things worse by maybe giving more pain to the person as a consequence or by not doing other things that would have been a lot more helpful). Since I do not have this experience I cannot imagine that I'd have to fight the Spirit .
Basically, if you have to fight the Spirit then all of shamanism collapses (or does it? hmm hehe) . Spirit is not the same as the rolling force etc. The rolling force does not tell you to take care of the person's soul in transitioning. But then what do I know about rolling force? This is what I think heh.

[Pixie Dust]

Much of your stated confusion is a result of me responding to things you've said in your previous posting.  It'll take some effort to find your quote, then I'll quote myself to demonstrate the connection, and then I'll clarify your stated confusion.  

Might take some time to clarify this miscommunication (quoting is tedious).  I guess I'll use more quotes in the future so that you understand I am replying to things you have said.

[watergaze]

Pixie wrote:To clarify because you asked... lol... language can certainly be imprecise: the tonal meaning physical manifestation of self (the physical body and physical reality aka matter).  Ego meaning awareness (or lack of awareness aka non-matter).  What I meant was when people tear down the tonal (which sure, can sometimes mean ego too) the person responsible for that progression can be hated.  Killing the ego can kill the tonal if someone has too much ego (disconnection with Spirit).  The tonal can die if it doesn't have enough Spirit to fall back on--reflecting the idea that it's good not to have all eggs in one basket.  

What I want to do is complicated xP Sometimes killing the ego frees the Spirit within a person so yeah, sometimes I want to kill ego.  I never said I wanted to destroy the tonal to aid the spiritual.  I said sometimes it's necessary to destroy the tonal to aid the spiritual.  Ideally, I don't think I would ever deem it necessary to destroy an entire tonal (aka murder).  I'm not that much of an extremist.  There have been sketchy situations where I've stripped a lot of the tonal away from an individual or two.... and those were incredibly messy situations.  Ones that were even a bit too close for comfort for even myself... but those situations orchestrated themselves (Spirit was at fault).  

I hope that clarifies?  I can clarify further because it feels like I didn't do a great job identifying the source of confusion.  Not sure, I'll see what you say lol.
ok, I understand somewhat what you mean by 'tonal' and 'ego'. For you tonal is basically life in matter. So dying means the tonal died. And ego is just being unaware. I think my term of what ego means is pretty different yet somehow we can still talk and understand each other heh. Because it ends up as the same thing. Being self-important means one lacks awareness.
But then what do you mean by tearing down someone's tonal? You seem to distinguish between tearing down and destroying.  Cause yea, destroying means killing in your definition. When you tear down a tonal what do you do?
Does tearing down the tonal mean killing the ego and the effect that has on the tonal?

Interesting to me is how I speak of when I speak of some of what you speak of (rofl haha). So, I say that the person can die with the ego for two probable reasons: They are extremely rigid (they lack fluidity) and they like drama . Drama is evil . Self-importance links to drama. If one is dramatically afraid they can even die. So, interestingly, I did not link it to having a lack of spirit in the tonal. But I totally see your point. If there is enough spirit present then the person is not that rigid that they die or that dramatic that they die.

It is a bit funny how you say Spirit was at fault heh.
How are these individuals you mentioned doing now?

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Pixie wrote:Ideally killing of the ego should serve the tonal and spiritual, I agree with your conclusion.  Ego is a form of mental construct and yes, it's abstract as it's not matter.  I view ego as an unevolved form of self-importance.  Self-importance is necessary as it allows self-care to take center stage.  Definitely an interesting shift.
In my terminology, one can understand the importance and value of things as well as oneself and not be self-important. Self-care is not linked to self-importance for me therefore and also because for me that links to care of everything. Actually, what helped me take better care of myself is when I realized that I am actually mean or not good to my own being. I can take so much care with other people but then my own being is like what? I realized I gotta take care of not just others but my own being. My body is also a body. If I take care not to damage another person's body why not take care not to damage mine? etc etc. It was not self-importance that got me to turn to take better care of myself. it was forbearance, politeness, care to all things. I am part of everything hence I deserve care too.
I guess that is weird lol.
Before this step, I had to do self-care ofc to be able to function. That is not linked to self-importance either. Just practicality and necessity.
And then anger got me to take care of myself too.
I mentioned these 3 influences. Chronologically they went 1) practicality and necessity 2) anger 3) not sure what to call it maybe love heh.

The center stage - that realization comes with the normal rational realization that I cannot help anyone (including myself) or do anything if I am done for. I can calculate or decide on a diminishing in my own well being but I cannot go beyond a certain line.

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Pixie wrote:Your thoughts on hijacking peoples paths are interesting.  You say you won't hijack paths, but your mere presence (the presence of anyone) has the potential to hijack paths.  Easy scenario: I walk into a banquet hall with my wife--there are other men around who are more dashing in their suits, obviously have more money, and I'm petty.  All those men just hijacked my path (for the moment).  Or I walk into an insane asylum and pretend to be the only sane person present; this is hijacking.  Or I'm a fitness model and walk into a weight watchers clinic; I'm hijacking.  Or I'm an esteemed writer going to a writing course for beginners; I'm hijacking (unles I'm the teacher).  We hijack paths so frequently that we can either be aware of ourselves and the potential impact and make adjustments for those--or we can ignore ourselves and expect Spirit to save the life of a bloody cyclist.  Even when we are positive and share acts of kindness can we hijack someones path.  Your love for everyone has hijacked my path.  So whether or not you care to admit it--you're a path hijacker.
again you go into very tiny things when I am talking about major things. Yes, I see your point here but that is not what I call hijacking someone's path . Your path was not hijacked by those men, you just got into a different state temporarily and not even that different for you. It just allowed you to express something that you already had the bend for and ready and ripe for expression, all they did is provide an impulse for you and the rest you did yourself. I am not saying I dont want to provide impulses to people, impulses are like invitations. I allow things. I don't force them. So the men did not force you to feel jealous or whatever. (I do not all that well understand all your examples heh but I use the one I do). What you call hijacking is like I said providing an impulse or a gear shift, but it doesn't hijack one's path just maybe bring forth an emotion that otherwise would not have come in that moment.  But I agree with what you say about adjustments in those situations.
Spirit might be saving the cyclist by having you there in the situation. And if you sit and wait for Spirit to i dunno materialize and do something that would be tragic .
So then I assume that when you say I hijacked your path you just mean in the sense like in your other examples . Which is not that big of a deal really .

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Pixie wrote:You mention not wanting to hurt people but damn it, you're going to learn something right now.  When you are kind to mean people, KINDNESS can hurt them.  Kindness gives mean people hope and hope is one of the most dangerous things to give a person.  So--if you don't want to hurt mean people then you have to be mean to them, but that would be mean toward your Spirit.  So what are you gonna do eh?  I'll tell you what I would do.  I would be kind to a mean person, violate their tonal and tear down that ego, and serve their spirit.  xP  In all fairness I've also been mean to a mean person because my spirit flows both ways and sometimes I prefer to be self-serving.  Depends on whether I've had coffee.  Just because you think kindness doesn't hurt, doesn't mean it can't be a weapon to disarm even the darkest of people.  You wouldn't believe the number of cranky old men who've wept uncontrollably because someone loved them unconditionally; usually, these scenarios have involved young children giving them hugs.
This is a language thing heh. I meant to hurt as in to damage. Tere is hurt and Hurt. heh. Some hurt is a byproduct of healing, sadly. I am all for healing. I would not want to hurt as in damage a person.
I know kindness can hurt (as in be painful) to hurt (as in damaged) individuals. But that is not the fault of kindness or the kind person it is the fault of whatever that resulted in damaging/hurting the individual who became closed off or mean. When the heart/soul of such an individual temporarily starts to come alive it is something they are not used to any more. It is the fact that they have become bent that hurts.
I do not know why you talk about hope. I mean yes it can give them hope but why say that as a link to hurt? Does hope hurt? I guess it can same as kindness and opening one's hurt heart. But it is interesting that you focus on hope out of all the other things that could link to this open heart and kindness. I do not think hope is the most dangerous. If a person did not have hope then they were basically a goner already. Nothing much worse can happen to them in the sense of hope or non-hope than losing the hope they didn't have before. Yea they can fall a bit lower, so to speak, but it is not really that big of a difference, is it? And could one not argue that they had not lost hope in the first place? Otherwise, could it really be rekindled? And say someone comes and affects a change of hope in a person. This person now hopes but this someone lets them down. Instead of losing hope the person should cling to it and create the world of it. - Is what I'd say. Just because someone is imperfect doesn't mean the hope is not perfect and impeccable .
Yea, I also say in my post that kindness can disarm and affect people who are well cold and militant are the words I used, we could also say mean haha.

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Pixie wrote:I enjoyed what you said about the elements.  One thing to note, while lightning may not be as big a death dealer as the other elements overall--keep in mind in Colorado we have a higher rate of death by lightning strikes than other locations.  I'm not nerdy enough to understand why that is, but if I'm guessing it has something to do with being higher in elevation.  "Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines" (can't remember the author).  So location-based features may play a significant factor in the possibility of death regarding the elements.  While lightning may not be high-risk for you, I sure as hell won't go for a hike in Colorado during a storm.  I don't worry about fires in Hawaii, but I do in California.  Elemental death rates aren't quite as simple as you make them appear lol.
The death and elementals topic... the point is that neither element is undeadly. Of course, no one will drown in a desert but that does not say anything about the undeadliness of water. People need to be aware where they live. I was not advocating you get careless with lightning, no matter where you live . Funny about the weasels .

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Pixie wrote:I would definitely agree with you in that every AP has a type of blindness involved.  It's why I love to play host to thousands of APs.....  I don't like being blind.  I've found blindness to be divisive so the more the merrier.  
But would you not have to hold these different APs at the same time in order to assess the situation while trying to not have the blind spot? I think some of the emotions are mutually exclusive - like we said with the open hearted love.
It is possible to dream more dreams at once so it is possible to hold more APs at once. But to be at this level in normal daily interactions hmm .

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Pixie wrote:Being annoyed is different than being angry or hateful (at least for me).  Like I'm terribly annoyed with ignorance.  I don't hate ignorant people because I can't control them.  I can control myself, so I can hate myself.  Annoyance doesn't have to lead to anger either (though it can).  I view anger as very similar to hate--it's a passionate dislike.  So maybe the easiest way to explain this is I view hate on the far right and annoyance on the far left...but they both share the same spectrum.  So they're similar, but each is a difference of intensity.  I try to avoid anger/hate because chaos often unfolds when I reach those extremes...
To the topic of annoyance and being angry or feeling hate:
Intriguing how you link control to hate.  I do not have this link. I do not hate myself because I can control myself. But I do see how hate can come due to not being able to control (others and oneself too). And lol this sentence (I do not hate myself because I can control myself) has now a double meaning but I mean foremost that just because I have the ability to control myself does not make me hate myself when I fail.

It is a bit confusing how you mix anger and hate. For me they are different emotions. You link annoyance to hate but not that much to anger, while for me annoyance and anger are basically the same thing just different in intensity and hate is different. Hate is a condition of the heart/soul like love. Anger, in general, is fleeting and reactionary. (Of course hate utilizes anger and in these cases anger can linger for long times or come by very often.)

Anger is a stronger form of annoyance. Annoyance already has in it anger it is just not yet blossomed fully. Hate is something that needs a lot more to come into the equation. I can be angry at my mother but I dont hate her, I can be even aware that I love her while I am angry at her. 

Im trying to formulate what ingredient comes to make anger.. its forming... there is a certain additional bent that needs to happen. But what is it precisely? Hmm...

Anger is not hate but hate comes with anger. In hurt there is a sense of injury, hurt, pain, maybe shame. Anger is not long lasting on its own, hate is.  Anger is more rational or practical. If something is causing you pain (can be also in form of unfairness and injustice) you get angry and retaliate/free yourself. Hate wants to cause pain without this type of practical reason.
But what to call this bend that needs to happen for hate to come about... dunno atm. Maybe you can help

[watergaze]

afterthoughts:

Often the most caring person is the one who needs to stop and not go express that care. For those who are naturally uncaring, they can express their care and do less damage . Caring can be linked to self-importance. One needs to eradicate that link. Weird how that is. Me, I am a caring person and I am learning how to hold back and let others figure stuff for themselves. I am much better at it now, it seems even natural to me now. But my heart fights for people even if outwardly I get this erm cooler thing. It is not yet very well done because I am still pushed a bit further off center/balance in this. Sometimes I get a not nice uncaring thing on the surface of me, it has a weird taste and I dont like it. It appeared because caring too much I had to push further into uncaring and balancing takes time. I always notice it and it is foreign to me and a bit bent. So at least I know it's there and not to act on it. 
There are more sides of this to I guess everyone. A part that is the heart that is caring and a part that is who knows what that is 'ruthless' or like what has that gotta do with me? or whatever else it is that does it that silences the heart

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Pixie wrote: Yet sometimes tearing is necessary.  It's not "nice", but for some, it's preferred and the only thing that will work.
I wrote:I know that sometimes tearing is necessary. I am not against tearing in those cases.
to the tearing. Yes, when it is necessary and by those who know what they are doing. Like if you need your appendix cut out you don't want whoever to cut you open, you want an experienced surgeon. If you have a choice . And in little things like say wounds from our past and such we do have a choice usually since it's not a matter of a next moment's life and death.

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Pixie wrote:I'm a mixed-plate and enjoy receiving and giving in all sorts of combinations.  Methods should be dependent upon the personality receiving assistance.  Unless one-size approaches work for everyone... but I'm highly suspicious of those because I've met numerous deviants who don't fit one-sized applications.
I wrote:I agree that methods should be dependent on what the receiver needs. Though also on what the giver is comfortable with.
Different people need different things... and one method works better on one person than on another. This is why there are so many different people and these people can stumble upon those who can provide the needed method. It is great to be versatile and have a big toolbox, but no one can be everything to everyone, can they? . It is fine enough to be good at a couple of things and provide those to the world where these are needed. It is not good though to provide them to everyone by default just cause one can - tear everyone or pamper everyone etc.

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I wrote:From what I saw the hate comes from those who the person tries to impact or 'help'. I do not mind pain of my own, but I mind the ego/self-importance in the person trying to 'help'. I mind they think they know what is best for me and what I need and that they think they are the ones who need to give it to me. I like my own choices and I choose people or circumstances that educate me and give me also pain. I can stand that to a degree that is surprising. I don't need some idiots coming by and swearing and abusing me to push me they don't even know where. And that is the problem... they really do not have control of what is happening. They are not able to cushion when needed and they are not able to maneuver properly. All they do is poke here and there to inflict some pain or bent responsiveness.
of course being led by Spirit means that if the Spirit leads you into a situation with such a person (as I say I do not like) that one stays. For this, of course, one needs to be aware of it (I have been at some points of my life). And these people have their uses too .

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Anger and Hate: 

To give a comparison. When a person is sad they often cry. In this example anger is the tears and hate is the sadness. One can be sad and not cry. One can cry out of say laughter too. In this sense anger can happen without hate. But hate often uses anger as an expression.

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Enjoyable talks, thnx. Thank you also for your thoughts and thank you also for explaining things I didn't understand.

[Pixie Dust]

Watergaze said: 

I know that sometimes tearing is necessary. I am not against tearing in those cases. What is important to me is that my self-importance does not decide when this is necessary but something else inside me that I am connected with That Spirit etc guides me in this. Why? Because I trust Spirit more than I trust my self-importance . It is quite important to me that I don't cut off a foot (just because I can) when it has a blue toe (due to bumping into something etc.).
I agree.  Except determining whether an idea, impulse, or emotion is originating from Spirit or from Self (self-importance) can be challenging.  Spirit isn't necessarily passive and sometimes people need to be "punched in the face" to send them on a new trajectory.  Like Wolf's banning of people without an explanation...sometimes that can be Spirit's method of allowing a person to self-stalk.  For some, the cutting off of the foot due to stubbing ones toe is the best long-term plan.  Maybe not an ideal short term plan, but it can play a larger role later in time.  Maybe it allows the person to limit impulsive decision making in the long-term by allowing the experience earlier in life when the consequences are much smaller.  The easiest example I know of is drugs.  I tried smoking cigarettes in middle school to figure out what the appeal was.  I tried them then discovered it was lame (for me), and never smoked another cigarette again.  The temptation was removed because I had experienced it.  Other people become addicted as a result of their initial curiosity.  Everyone is different and sometimes doing dumb things gets it out of our systems and other times it leads to a lifelong addiction; the point is, we can't tell if Spirit sets us up for success or failure until more time has passed.  In some scenarios cutting off ones foot could be the correct course of action even if it is misunderstood in the moment.  In other scenarios it could be the dumbest idea we've ever held.  


I do not know if Kris' method is what we speak of really (i have not seen him tear down anyone's ego), but let's say he tries for this. It can happen that he can do a lot of damage and stop someone flat on their path. It might take this person years to get moving again. The worst I do with my preferred method is that I do nothing. The person is, in effect, unaffected. Plus just because I prefer something doesn't mean it is the only tool in my tool box. But it is better to start gently and then if strength is needed you can always add that later. Why not allow the person to first move on their own and do as much of their own stuff as they can? Nevertheless, even with not preferring these strong forceful methods, like I said, I still have sometimes pretty strong effect on a person. Even when I do not intend to have such a strong effect. In this sense, I find that is better of my own accord. If needed, Spirit has ways. 
I've seen Kris try, but his success isn't what's in question.  It's just his preferred method.  If he were successful, as you've said he would do a lot of damage to limit the progress for another (or, as seen from his perspective, it could act as a catalyst for them).  I've seen the impact Kris has exerted on relationships between people and it's impressive.  Maybe not positive, but it's impressive.  I've watched him take two very close friends and become the wedge between those people.  Now, one could argue that had nothing to do with Kris--and that could be true.  But we are not only ourselves, but an arrangement of relationships we have with many people.  Kris was a feature (a catalyst) of many relationships and he was able to bring to light the various weak points.  No one knows of his reasons for doing this--except him.  So we can't say that his actions were or were not Spirit helping us to better ourselves.  If we use our experiences to propel us forward then sure, his insights were from Spirit.  If we use our experiences to hinder ourselves then maybe his insights weren't from Spirit.  Perhaps Spirit isn't a particular outcome or intent but our interpretation (and subsequent application) of our experiences.  How we decide what is from Spirit or not can't be found through another--it is found within and how we internalize what's brought to us.  Hence, it doesn't matter what Kris does, but instead it is our response to what Kris does that is of importance.  


It's why I've never yelled at Wolf.  He is not the problem.  It is my attitude about him that is the problem.  Just like Kris was never the problem.  Billy was never the problem.  Kao was never the problem.  Serloco was never the problem.  It was always my attitude about others that was the problem.  Therefore these people are not to blame.  It is me who I should blame.  This approach removes the power from "them" and returns the control over to ourselves.  What can we do differently to become successful.  Spirit is what is within, not without.  Hence, I don't worry whether these people are moving with Spirit.  That is irrelevant and something I can never control or verify.  I worry about whether Spirit moves through me.  

I wonder sometimes if it's not better to then 'just' be fair. Other than a student thinking why does the other student get what they need but not me? 
I agree  I don't have an answer for this either.  I try to learn the various spirits of everyone but I have my favorites.  I give more attention and time to those favorites.  Many of my favorites are people who have demonstrated a greater capacity for kindness and/or ability to adapt.  Some people favor money and so their favorites are rich people.  Some go for power.  Everyone has favorites.  When it comes to children in classrooms, even there I have my favorites and again it's based on their kindness and adaptability.  Why?  Because those will always be the people who support my vision for the world.  I don't provide the same degree of effort for cruel personalities because energy goes where attention flows.  I don't want to foster that type of world.  Hence, favorites are born.  Is it right?  Generally, maybe not right.  Yet it's the right approach for me so that's what I do.  I reward my favorites and spend very little energy on the things that fall outside of them.  

I do not understand why you mention miscommunication. Please elaborate on that point you are making . Why would there be miscommunication? Do you mean with those people or here with you? Or?
Maybe an example would be easier.  Let's say Lucy, from the series "I Love Lucy", doesn't know that everything she's involved with goes awry.  Maybe she doesn't understand the impact she has on her best friend Ethel and her husband Ricky.  If she can't even understand herself, she won't understand her impact, and thus her relationships with others will experience miscommunication.  So in general if we don't take the time to understand ourselves in a basic way, we will find ourselves in numerous misunderstandings.  


Pixie wrote wrote:Again, you don't know too little to make decisions regarding how your awareness can be utilized.
Did you mean to say I know too little to make decisions? Cause the negative in that sentence does not make as much sense hehe
I was responding to you when you said: 

I am not going to go into the field of Spirit and say that this or that person should not have fallen or that this or that person should - it is not my place. Same with what I expressed about providing a link to someone. But it can be that I hope and wish that it happens for someone close and I think Spirit hears that too and my plea might make a difference who kows .[/color]

All one does is allows oneself to be utilized. I know too little to make these decisions.
Now, I am getting something closer to what I wanted and it is a lot less intrusive. Though of course it is years later. But back then people were probably just not ready for it.

One could say that the intent or setting that I want is also respected to a big degree but it is not the only thing that is respected. Other things are taken into account that I myself at that time could not know. This is why it is better to not act out of one's own ego/self-importance but to go with Spirit.
Were people not ready for it or were you not ready for it?  Yes, the teacher must move at a pace comfortable for the class, but also the teacher can only teach what they themselves understand.  Sometimes we have to slow down to accommodate the students, but at the same time we need to slow down to develop a method to understand our students well enough to reach them.  Hence, a skilled teacher who is genuinely interested in the students will not think "the student is not ready".  A good teacher asks, "What can I change to better support the student."  For really challenging students the teacher might even say, "Okay, so this student won't be a mathematician, but they will make a fabulous writer."  Students are always ready, just maybe not ready for what you're trying to teach.  Therefore, while you wait for that moment it is wiser to adapt to the student and say that it is the teacher who is not ready.  This approach makes both the teacher and the student more successful than saying, "The student is not ready."  


I do not think Kris tore off people's ego (and I wonder if he himself is without an ego, but I do wish it for him if that was /is his aim). I mean, he went hardest on Sen. Did he tear off his ego? . He maybe tried to do that... i dunno...

I think Kris attempted to tear off egos.  Whether or not he did, I'm uncertain.  I like to think he tore off mine a couple times.  Meeting him in person was the most successful ego tearing  People make a lot more sense when you engage them in multiple settings.  In person I could see and feel him with such a greater intensity--like a purer understanding than the other exchanges I've had with him.  He is very kind and is genuinely doing the best he can with what he's been given this lifetime.  When we talk about fairness with people, I like the think of Kris.  For someone like you, WG, you have a very nice upbringing.  Your upbringing may not be ideal, but it is far more decent than many I've known.  Hence, I have higher expectations from you and I expect you to be a nice person.  There is no reason for you to be an ugly person (you weren't serially raped, didn't have a mom who was a prostitute, didn't suffer from a drug addiction, etc).  I don't know everything about Kris, but I know enough to know that he's had a very challenging journey this lifetime.  If you ever meet him, you'll feel it.  For him to be as mature and as kind as he has been is a miracle.  He still has hope that not everyone is like the majority of people he's known.  That sort of inner light is nearly impossible to keep alive.  And so my expectations for him are very different than my expectations I've had for you.  For someone like him I expect failure.  Yet he is a miracle.  So while he's done things that many can't understand, I don't think he's "bad" or not with Spirit.  I think he's one of the gangsters in the world who fought to be here and is doing the god damned best he can.  I will never be that person to condemn him by saying, "He's not ready.  He's not trying.  He's not with Spirit.  He's not doing the best he can.  He could do better.  He doesn't know power.  He's evil."  I want to be that person to say, "Yeah, he fucked some **** up but he did everything he could to help another to the best of his ability."  I mean, he cared.... a lot.... and has been very genuine in his efforts.  I mean, yeah, it was a little unconventional what he's done... but I can say the same thing about me.... about Wolf... The three of us have very dark origins and so yeah, our methods are bit loopy from time to time.  It's just part of our background  So when we understand others and compare them against themselves, instead of comparing them against society or some vague norm then suddenly there's no thing people are "lacking".  We are each a different expression of perfection and we're all learning and applying as fast as we can.  

The main difference is that with the shaman there is Spirit present. Here in the 'stalks' of these passers by at our site it is not - or to such a small degree I do not really consider it around as such or at least as much .
  Hmmm... interesting you feel that way.  The shaman will see Spirit in everything--as anything can become a message at any moment.  


Personally, I've really benefited from being stalked.  First was Wolf when said I made his horses sick (I had to contemplate whether I'm evil and vengeful and later decided to hold that AP because he gave me that ability to connect with the idea).  Kris was a very well done stalk for me and he hit me hard.  He taught me to understand him and gave me enough of him to make a picture out of those fragments.  I had to throw out everything I knew about the world and what I thought of as evil--because for him he had to endure those things.  If I wanted to know him I couldn't know him with judgement--I had to know him with my heart.  That took a hell of a lot of inner work to know his spirit.  For me to say his efforts weren't of Spirit would be a lie.  He has so much Spirit that Spirit is about the only thing that has kept him alive for so long.  

So to say what we do at Sorcery isn't of Spirit is a reflection not on what's present at Sorcery--but really it's about what one finds at Sorcery.  I guess for you Sorcery stalks haven't been an act of Spirit; but for me these stalks have all been such a pure expression that I am grateful Spirit found a way to reach me to help propel me just a wee bit further down my own path of self-awareness (touching the I AM).  I hope you can find a way to Spirit through any experience, whenever you decide that's what you want.

I do not understand what gives people the audacity and the self-importance that they think they can be somebody's savior and have the right to do whatever they deem necessary to 'better' these people. Remember how you felt when Dok tried to help you? 
Maybe it should be less about you understanding people and more about understanding yourself.  What about yourself can help you better understand these people?  


Oh, I love Dok.  He has brought the best A-game to Sorcery I've ever seen.  He's better than both Wolf and Kris.  To counter Dok took a lot of adaptation on my end... I love the challenge and I did have to learn some new skills to keep up with Dok.  I had to learn about changing frequencies for one.  There were more skills too, like he forced me to up my own connection with Spirit and I absolutely adore my new skillset.  If I thought him receptive to a thank you note, I would send one.  

I remember that I was frustrated with Dok, but I get frustrated with most.  I don't mind that Dok was the way he was because in the long-term he gave me such an abundance of new skills in such a short time frame that I gained more than I lost.  I may have lost some energy and it was relatively painful to endure his AP, but what I walked away from at the end of the exchange was incredible.  It's like, he beat me up and left me sore and bruised but I was able to rob him blind in the process.... and bruises fade, but gems in the form of knowledge are infinite.  Totally worth being beat up over.  Through him I learned all about a different field of Spirit and he served as a gateway into a new set of APs.  It was really a cool experience and I can respect the fact that he shared it, even if unwillingly, by merely being present.  

Now I recognize not everyone is like me.  Not everyone should have the experiences I've had, just like not everyone should experience what Kris, Wolf, or Sen have.  I don't want people to feel the way Kris, Wolf, or Sen have felt--so I do my best to counter the people who are a bit abrasive in certain ways.  I'll protect people who are being bullied, but I'll also befriend the bully and many don't understand this.  At the end of the day we're all human and making the most sense out of our experiences as we're capable.

Indeed it is an important thing to learn to let other be . Because sometimes that is the best thing for them.

Circumstances will dictate whether it is best to engage or disengage.  I know the importance of letting things be; it's why I haven't re-joined RF.  It is important that I not be there because people are recovering and that is not something I'll rush.  Engagement is a personal decision and whether those are guided by Spirit is something an outside perspective is incapable of knowing.  

It is not for nothing that the CC books speak of tricks. People need to be tricked. Not forced, clubbed and battered into whatever heh. In general. There is always that petty tyrant method... but that is already warrior style. A normal person would evade the petty tyrant not go head on into such a situation. Being aware, with a petty tyrant a warrior has already chosen to battle and learn and work on themselves. To me it seemed that Kris was a better petty tyrant to Sen than anything else. Petty tyrants are not teachers though they can in spite of themselves teach something to an aware person. 
This gets complicated when we define what a teacher is and what a teacher should be.


Let's shift the discussion from Kris/Sen to Kao/Billy.  Billy was a great teacher for me and the many of us tasked with addressing him.  For me he taught me a lot and I guess I could see him as a petty tyrant if I wanted, but there was nothing petty about him.  Because of him a lot about Sorcery had to change.  He demonstrated why it's important to protect personal space of individuals, but also the common space.  He found the weak spaces and that discovery allowed us to strengthen that area. For me, I had to develop my ability to detach and ignore lol but that was an area for me to work on.  It was simple enough to let him say whatever he wanted about me since I had past experience with people who start rumors; but I hadn't learned how to detach from unhealthy relationships of a specific flavor.  So with Billy's help, I eventually learned how to sever ties with a different friend that turned out to be a very unhealthy relationship (Alan).  Billy was a petty tyrant for me personally but he was so much more than that.  I appreciate what he offered me and I applied the knowledge he brought to my life into other areas.  For me, Spirit moved through Billy to bring to light an issue I was struggling with.  I may not talk to Billy, but I bow to who he is and what he's helped me fix within myself.  

Kris offered Sen a similar opportunity.  Kris offered me a similar opportunity.  Everyone moves with Spirit and it's up to us to decide whether we let Spirit move us.

And of course, they don't realize how far the rabbit hole goes. But there is no way to tell them that. This is just how it is. I had no idea what I was getting myself into either . But one does not do anything one doesn't want to do really. So in that sense, it doesn't matter.

hahahaha, eh, the f*cking rabbit hole gets me every time.  Looking back a decade I can say I never thought what I do now was even possible back in the beginning.  Those who take the plunge down the rabbit hole are never left without adventure  It's such a fascinating world isn't it?  Always more to discover whenever we say "yes" to Spirit  

Any time I feel complete, I always remind myself this feeling of awareness is the dumbed down version for a different spiritual being somewhere.  Better get back to work xD 

I love when new people join the rabbit hole--they always start off so normal but then it gets 'em and they are a new breed of awesome.  

I'll reply to your following post later after I have a break from thinking