What is the difference between sorcery and nagualism?

[Guest]

Are there strong distinctions? If so what?

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Sorcery can be performed by any with power while Nagualism is a spiritual journey and belief system.

[Guest]

Thats how I see it too. I would say, Sorcery being a neutral phenomena and thus open to the spectrum of light and dark intent, that Nagualism is a structure designed by Spirit/intent itself to uphold an aspect of awareness and preserve and thus continue it's function in this infinite universe.
Furthermore, if Nagualism is an aspect of power, its easy to see how one with power can be practicing Sorcery, and think they are following Nagualism too. However, with the influence of the FI, one can simply be drawn to the effects of power, but not be walking the Nagual path very well or not at all in fact.

[Guest]

So would you say that sorcerers follow power, but nagualists follow freedom?

[Guest]

I would say people can have power and do sorcery, but a nagual uses sorcery to evolve as a nagual being towards freedom. Both are power, as I said in above post. What freedom means to me is: rid of FI, loss of human form, and thus freedom from the constraints of that. A nagual does not practice dark sorcery upon loss of human form as there is no lure because there is no self as was before.

[Mornings Son]

Ravenmoon wrote:What freedom means to me is: rid of FI, loss of human form, and thus freedom from the constraints of that.
OOOiii )))
I agree Ravenmoon. Getting rid of FI means for me to root out all selfimportance.
This is done by cutting all attachments to the stories that we tell about our self, others and 'reality'.
I can say that for myself that it has been a gigantic job so fare and still every day something happens that we that pushes my bottoms. Still more mechanics( habitual responses and feelings) to dismantle.
To be a warrior is to take this task on and follow it to completion. Done over months and years
One day magic and sorcery happens - trust me on that

[Guest]

Magic and sorcery...its already happened for many of us I imagine. And this goes back to what was said earlier...people can do sorcery, and still have FI. Yes, it a lifelong process to be free of all SI. Some have its happen as a quick sudden event, others eventually over span of time if persistent about it.

[nemo.primeradiant]

DJ: The Power of Silence 


At
various times don Juan attempted to name his knowledge for my benefit. He felt
that the most appropriate name was nagualism, but that the term was too
obscure. Calling it simply "knowledge" made it too vague, and to call
it "witchcraft" was debasing. "The mastery of intent" was
too abstract, and "the search for total freedom" too long and
metaphorical. Finally, because he was unable to find a more appropriate name,
he called it "sorcery," although he admitted it was not really
accurate. 


(nemo) This is a lovely explanation by DJ and if you
take all the gaps between the words out and make it one word you have a clump of
info that is what I call sourcery, as to avoid the tendency of tonals to make
ism’s out of belief systems and then make it more important than an individuals
connection with its source. 


Sorcery and Witchcraft have the same debasing angle
and virtually indistinguishable in my neck of the woods. If you say Nagualism when
someone asks what you are into, it’s still to obscure. So I say “Sorcery with a
u after the o” and then who I am speaking to gets it on some level.  The mastery of Intent works for any religious types and New agers
Really Ravenmoon you had an idea of what the difference was when you asked the question, and with answers from others you can pit what you think against what comes up and see and where it stands. The same word means many different things to many different people, so awarenesses reading this thread will resonate towards the explanations that fit closest to their attention level. So the difference is in who's asking.
There are a few things missing in DJ's paragraph one is references to the double and dreaming and from the new age terminologies their references to frequency, help the understanding of how things can faze into and out of a bubble of perceptions perceptual field, from a more modern or scientific approach. Maybe sourcedialingism frequencism or my favourite freaqualism.

[glance left]

"Maybe sourcedialingism frequencism or my favourite freaqualism"



LOL! Good one

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Very Nice post Nemo, impressive!

[scout1]

The sorcery as Nagualism total freedom the warriors way, a seer
Don Juan had stated his belief that the Christian idea of being cast out from the Garden of Eden sounded to him like an allegory for losing our silent knowledge; our knowledge of intent. Sorcery, then, was a going back to the beginning; a return to paradise.
It is not the residue sorcerers look forward to. The idea of the abstract, the spirit, is the only residue that is important. The idea of the personal self has no value whatsoever. Every time I've had the chance, I have made you aware of the need to abstract. You have always believed that I meant to think abstractly. No. To abstract means to make yourself available to the spirit by being aware of it.
     
One of the most dramatic things about the human condition is the macabre connection between stupidity and self-reflection.
   
===========
 It is stupidity that forces us to discard anything that does not conform with our self-reflective expectations. For example, as average men, we are blind to the most crucial piece of knowledge available to a human being: the existence of the assemblage point and the fact that it can move.
 
    For a rational man it's unthinkable that there should be an invisible point where perception is assembled.
   
 For the rational man to hold steadfastly to his self-image insures his abysmal ignorance. He ignores, for instance, the fact that sorcery is not incantations and hocus-pocus, but the freedom to perceive not only the world taken for granted, but everything else that is humanly possible.
      Here is where the average man's stupidity is most dangerous; he is afraid of sorcery. He trembles at the possibility of freedom. And freedom is at his fingertips. It's called the third point. And it can be reached as easily as the assemblage point can be made to move.

[scout1]

Silent knowledge



"Sorcery"/Warriors way/Nagualism then, was a going back to the beginning; a return to paradise.



i.e. = Silent knowledge.





Paradise =) e.g. as we were free as kids..

[Gonzo]

Free as kids means we didn't think about it.

[scout1]

Return to silence, Silent knowledge, is a return to paradise or to warriors way, sorcery, nagualism, zen, a home-run. Its buddha... awareness...



Those are brain waves anyway, EEG: deep silence, dreaming, seeing trance, recapitulation, everything. Hence tuning ones brainwaves.

[scout1]

They saw that this force had total consciousness and that it sprang from the very fields of energy that made the universe. They decided then that intent was a more appropriate name for it than will. In the long run, however, the name proved disadvantageous, because it does not describe its overwhelming importance nor the living connection it has with everything in the universe.



Don Juan had asserted that our great collective flaw is that we live our lives completely disregarding that connection. The busyness of our lives, our relentless interests, concerns, hopes, frustrations, and fears take precedence; and on a day-to-day basis we are unaware of being linked to everything else.



Don Juan had stated his belief that the Christian idea of being cast out from the Garden of Eden sounded to him like an allegory for losing our silent knowledge; our knowledge of intent. Sorcery, then, was a going back to the beginning; a return to paradise.



We stayed seated in the cave in total silence; perhaps for hours, or perhaps it was only a few instants. Suddenly don Juan began to talk, and the unexpected sound of his voice jarred me. I did not catch what he said. I cleared my throat to ask him to repeat what he had said, and that act brought me completely out of my reflectiveness.



I quickly realized that the darkness around me was no longer impenetrable. I could speak now. I felt I was back in my normal state of awareness.



In a calm voice don Juan told me that for the very first time in my life I had seen the spirit; the force that sustains the universe. He emphasized that intent is not something one might use or command or move in any way- nevertheless, one could use it, command it, or move it as one desires.



This contradiction, he said, is the essence of sorcery. To fail to understand it had brought generations of sorcerers unimaginable pain and sorrow. Modern-day naguals, in an effort to avoid paying this exorbitant price in pain, had developed a code of behavior called the warrior's way, or the impeccable action; which prepared sorcerers by enhancing their sobriety and thoughtfulness.



Don Juan explained that at one time in the remote past, sorcerers were deeply interested in the general connecting link that intent has with everything. And by focusing their second attention on that link, they acquired not only direct knowledge but also the ability to manipulate that knowledge and perform astounding deeds. They did not acquire, however, the soundness of mind needed to manage all that power.



So in a judicious mood, sorcerers decided to focus their second attention solely on the connecting link of creatures who have awareness. This included the entire range of existing organic beings; as well as the entire range of what sorcerers call inorganic beings, or allies, which they described as entities with awareness, but no life as we understand life. This solution was not successful either, because it, too, failed to bring them wisdom.



In their next reduction, sorcerers focused their attention exclusively on the link that connects human beings with intent. The end result was very much as before.



Then, sorcerers sought a final reduction. Each sorcerer would be concerned solely with his individual connection. But this proved to be equally ineffective.



Don Juan said that although there were remarkable differences among those four areas of interest, one was as corrupting as another. So in the end, sorcerers concerned themselves exclusively with the capacity that their individual connecting link with intent had to set them free to light the fire from within.



He asserted that all modern-day sorcerers have to struggle fiercely to gain soundness of mind. A nagual has to struggle especially hard because he has more strength; a greater command over the energy fields that determine perception; and more training in and familiarity with the intricacies of silent knowledge- which is nothing but direct contact with intent.



Examined in this way, sorcery becomes an attempt to reestablish our knowledge of intent and regain use of it without succumbing to it. And the abstract cores of the sorcery stories are shades of realization; degrees of our being aware of intent.



I understood don Juan's explanation with perfect clarity. But the more I understood and the clearer his statements became, the greater my sense of loss and despondency. At one moment I sincerely considered ending my life right there. I felt I was damned.



Nearly in tears, I told don Juan that there was no point in his continuing his explanation, for I knew that I was about to lose my clarity of mind, and that when I reverted to my normal state of awareness, I would have no memory of having seen or heard anything. My mundane consciousness would impose its lifelong habit of repetition and the reasonable predictability of its logic. That was why I felt damned. I told him that I resented my fate.



Don Juan responded that even in heightened awareness I thrived on repetition, and that periodically I would insist on boring him by describing my attacks of feeling worthless. He said that if I had to go under it should be fighting, not apologizing or feeling sorry for myself; and that it did not matter what our specific fate was as long as we faced it with ultimate abandon.



His words made me feel blissfully happy. I repeated over and over, tears streaming down my cheeks, that I agreed with him. There was such profound happiness in me that I suspected my nerves were getting out of hand. I called upon all my forces to stop this and I felt the sobering effect of my mental brakes. But as this happened, my clarity of mind began to diffuse. I silently fought- trying to be both less sober and less nervous. Don Juan did not make a sound and left me alone.

[quantumshaman]

Scout:
When you post long sections like this, could you do us the favor of citing your source so we can go read it in context?  Thanks,
QS

[scout1]

QS: The Power Of Silence. ©1987 by Carlos Castaneda: Part 4: Chapter 07 - Seeing The Spirit.
A story: Once Carlos asked don Genaro on the secret of his power, he
wanted to be as cool as his benefactor. Don Genaro simply a put a
finger on his lips as an answer (source Carlos Castaneda in Armando Torres. Encounters)
It all boils down on the inner silence, i.e. power of silence, anyway. Its the self-reflection and turning away from that what is the issue here, as  all the socery/nagualism (and even zen or any other authentic pathway)  is based on this.


Otherwise, are you being "eaten" ? =)) can You confirm it QS pls ?  =))
So the AP position fixation, and flyers are secondary, as primary is the turning away from the mirror of the self-reflection, but the causative factor for this mirror of self-reflection  or compulsive internal monologue in the head being the lickerish flyers ? and resulting loss of power thereof... and turning away from the silent knowledge, because of this head..
Is it so ? =))
"In the head, there is nothing out there ! It is run by flyers anyway! " - Carlos Castaneda in 1997, Los Angeles, Sustained action

[Mornings Son]

scout1 wrote:QS: The Power Of Silence. ©1987 by Carlos Castaneda: Part 4: Chapter 07 - Seeing The Spirit.
A story: Once Carlos asked don Genaro on the secret of his power, he
wanted to be as cool as his benefactor. Don Genaro simply a put a
finger on his lips as an answer (source Carlos Castaneda in Armando Torres. Encounters)
It all boils down on the inner silence, i.e. power of silence, anyway. Its the self-reflection and turning away from that what is the issue here, as  all the sorcery/nagualism (and even zen or any other authentic pathway)  is based on this.


Otherwise, are you being "eaten" ? =)) can You confirm it QS pls ?  =))
So the AP position fixation, and flyers are secondary, as primary is the turning away from the mirror of the self-reflection, but the causative factor for this mirror of self-reflection  or compulsive internal monologue in the head being the lickerish flyers ? and resulting loss of power thereof... and turning away from the silent knowledge, because of this head..
Is it so ? =))
I agree scout
the zen master just told about the two sides of the zen teaching that of practice, words and form and that of Seeing and the wordless teaching (the place of inner silence - all un-done)
the flyers parents is the red cock(self-delution), the green snake(anger) and the black pig (desires) - Tibetan

[glance left]

Death.....a helluva party Party of perspective



http://www.youtube.com/wa...ZDJS9Dpzw&feature=fvwrel

[scout1]

Nagualism ? Beyond dualism !

[Mornings Son]

scout1 wrote:
Nagualism ? Beyond dualism !
Oi ! I agree

[Gonzo]

What the hell is beyond dualism? Monism? Oblivionism? Nonentityism? Bullshitism?

[quantumshaman]

Gonzo wrote:
What the hell is beyond dualism?    The singularity of consciousness.
The totality of self.
The super-position of the assemblage point.
Non-local awareness.

[Gonzo]

Oh. Labels.

[scout1]

Yes, Dualism is absolutely vital. otherwise we are finished