The Nagual Manuel

[Eilias123]

I will also not be sharing any more public information about this event. And Gonzo you are not permitted to enter my dreams, you are lousy as a dreamwalker.

[Gonzo]

Eilias123 wrote:I will also not be sharing any more public information about this event. And Gonzo you are not permitted to enter my dreams, you are lousy as a dreamwalker.
Oh, darn.

[Gonzo]

Eilias123 wrote:My thought gonzo is that something is going to happen soon which will offset the earth's balance. I see it like a black shadow trying to cover the earth. i'm sorry but that is all I can articulate right now.
I'm not into that kind of "seeing", however, it seems reasonable some bad things are going to happen since humans are incapable of controlling their population and rampant consumption.  There are many theories around at the moment describing prior cataclysmic die-offs, to which we seem headed.  However, there is another way of looking at things, imo, as described by Richard Bach in "Illusions":
It's OK if the world is destroyed.  There are a thousand million other worlds for us to create and choose from.  As long as people want planets, there will be planets to live on.
Perhaps also to amplify that sentiment, he also said:
We are game-playing, fun-having creatures; we are the otters of the universe.  We cannot die, we cannot hurt ourselves any more than illusions on the screen can be hurt.

[Eilias123]

Funny, how you don't deny trying to pry me for information, and then later try to discredit me. You are contradicting yourself in the worst way possible. It's almost like you are covering up something. I write all my Dreams down in my dream blog BTW. http://www.dreamviews.com...nal-entry-universe-8313/
 Wolf I ask you to not delete any posts yet. I am sick and tired of people thinking that they can use dreams to manipulate and steal information from people. "inception" is real.  I have encountered many dreamwalkers since I have been into shared dreaming. In the words of our good friend Summer Dawne: "It's all going to be written down in my book." I'm going to expose all of you and your tricks. So be warned that if any members or people browsing here try this on me or anyone else here again I will be making an example of you.

[Guest]

This is quoted from gonzo:

It's OK if the world is destroyed. There are a thousand million other worlds for us to create and choose from. As long as people want planets, there will be planets to live on.



Tell me you really think people will sit back and agree with that logic. Sure we could jump planets but to just give up one and move just because a bully walks in is pointless. If we roll-over in this instance, what's to say it won't happen in another.. a more important instance. BTW, those inorganics, they're making quite a statement by wanting this world. If there really are really a thousand million other worlds, tell them to get out of ours. Go claim the other million. Since they seem persistent on this one planet, it makes me wonder what exactly it is they're after

[Raven Knight]

Gonzo wrote:I'm not into that kind of "seeing", however, it seems reasonable some bad things are going to happen since humans are incapable of controlling their population and rampant consumption.  There are many theories around at the moment describing prior cataclysmic die-offs, to which we seem headed.  However, there is another way of looking at things, imo, as described by Richard Bach in "Illusions":
It's OK if the world is destroyed.  There are a thousand million other worlds for us to create and choose from.  As long as people want planets, there will be planets to live on.
It's ok if the world is destroyed?  Even if all the people could make their way to another planet, what about the countless other inhabitants of the planet?  And what is to keep the new world from getting destroyed?  IMO, this is one of the problems with the world... too many people place absolutely no value on the other beings we share this planet with.  And if it is humans that bring about such destruction with rampant consumption and overpopulation, then those irresponsible humans who still have not learned are the least deserving of a new world.

[Wei Shan Yang]

Raven Knight wrote:It's ok if the world is destroyed?  Even if all the people could make their way to another planet, what about the countless other inhabitants of the planet?  And what is to keep the new world from getting destroyed?  IMO, this is one of the problems with the world... too many people place absolutely no value on the other beings we share this planet with.  And if it is humans that bring about such destruction with rampant consumption and overpopulation, then those irresponsible humans who still have not learned are the least deserving of a new world.
Ok, you are overlooking something here about what a consumer is. You call such irresponsible and undeserving of a "new world". But what is a consumer really...
Unless you live naked in a cave or other natural habitat and basically
eat only berries and other replenishable fruits...you are a consumer. Take for example the clothes you are wearing, they were manufactured in a
factory (unless you made them yourself including the making of the fabric...I doubt it), probably in China or other third world nation, many of which
are often coal run. What about furniture, computer, car, the appliances in your house?, all manufactured goods
that contribute to the globalization and consequent "imbalance" of the
ecosystem. So if you are really serious and want to be blameless in all
of this, stop consuming period. Because as long as you are consuming
anything, you are participating and are really doing no different then
the rest. You may say you consume less, but still its consuming and
altering the earth as a result, not to mention supplying the future incentive for business to keep make goods. The whole reason businesses do this is because you, I, and everyone else is buying it. This network is so vast and integrated that even if you try your hardest to support only those business that are eco-friendly and such, you will still consequently be supporting the businesses that aren't this way such as oil companies and auto makers (unless you never ride in any man-made vehicle).
So are you undeserving and irresponsible too? You don't like it but its ok for you to do it too anyway, because at least you know its wrong and are doing something about it? Doesn't add up. Stopping consumption is the only way to do something about it (counter its effects), and given that, look at how you would actually have to live...in prehistoric conditions, in order to avoid being the modern consumer of this highly integrated system. Since you participate on the Internet, I can see already you are a consumer and live in a dwelling supplied by electricity, which comes from electric companies (nuclear power), so every time you pay the bill, thats money you are sending to let them know they should be in business, and every time you use electricity (even if you aren't the one paying the bill) you are consuming it, thus justifying its demand.
I had a friend in college, she believed very strongly in the natural life. She took her baby girl and they lived in a teepee for a while. I respected her for that, it gets pretty cold in the southwest desert of NM in fall-spring. But she did eventually come back to modern convinces (and continued to attend school while living in the teepee), still I respect her effort to try and live naturally according to her beliefs at the time. Its not for me though, and I don't feel guilty about it, because I have yet to meet another person who is not living with modern convinces like me as well, this friend included. I don't care how much you consume or if you recycle and whatever you do, a consumer is still a consumer, period. Animals consume other plants and animals, etc. Just because humans have found new ways to consume does not mean its anything new.
Do we need to fear destruction? Here's my response on that...


The law of conservation of energy
is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of
energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be
conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed:
it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing
that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form:
for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.



Albert Einstein's theory of relativity shows that energy and mass are
the same thing, and that neither one appears without the other. Thus in
closed systems, both mass and energy are conserved separately, just as
was understood in pre-relativistic physics. The new feature of
relativistic physics is that "matter" particles (such as those
constituting atoms) could be converted to non-matter forms of energy,
such as light; or kinetic and potential energy (example: heat). However,
this conversion does not affect the total mass of systems, since the
latter forms of
non-matter energy still retain their mass through any such
conversion.[1]I'm not scientifically inclined, but have always felt the indestructibility of energy is their greatest "law".

[Wei Shan Yang]

The flaw with words is that they always make us feel

enlightened, but when we turn around to face the world they always

fail us and we end up facing the world as we always have, without

enlightenment. For this reason, a warrior seeks to act rather than

to talk, and to this effect, he gets a new description of the

world—a new description where talking is not that important, and

where new acts have new reflections.



The hardest thing in the world is to assume the mood of a

warrior. It is of no use to be sad and complain and feel justified

in doing so, believing that someone is always doing something to us.

Nobody is doing anything to anybody, much less to a warrior.



The worst that could happen to us is that we have to die, and

since that is already our unalterable fate, we are free; those who

have lost everything no longer have anything to fear.



For a seer, the truth is that all living beings are struggling to die. What stops death is awareness.~JM

[Lunoor]

For someone with no guilt that was a long defensive spield wei shan.



Moderation and willingness to change, and action based on such can make enough difference for us and the other beings here including plants and the fungus among us if only enough of us had enough imagination to conceive it and love to carry it to completion. And btw evolution is based on cooperation above all or there wouldn't be any so called sentient beings around here to yap so much. A universe, a world, an atmosphere couldn't exist without cooperation. Google cooperative evolution, google permaculture, google hunter gatherer, google cars that run on water and tiny houses, google Mycelium Running, google change cause the businesses got you by the gonads yang.



This SW is getting weird lately, so much paranoia farting around.



Neither you eilias nor gonzo are important enough for such threats, gonzo can't dream worth a damn, he drinks too f'n much.



Do all the forum folks have to believe everything that you naguals say? Do we have to believe that dreamways knows universally about dreaming experiences and what makes a sorcerer? Do we have to believe that wolf is infallible? Do we have to believe that your dreams are entirely accurate about reality and that you are soon off to Hawaii to save the world? Lets save it now, lets cut back on our bullshit, whatever it is. Man, I feel like I can't even speak my mind for fear of getting the boots here, is that how freedom makes you feel?



And goddamn gonzo, you may be old and getting close to your death but there are some young people around here who want to LIVE! and want to LIVE! on this PLANET, hell you may have been born in Burbank but you live in a tincan now, they ain't gonna take you to the new planet jus like they aint takin me. I don't believe they have a planet to go to anyway.



Man, Don Juan would be disgusted with all this "lets just leave our mess and start a new one somewhere else". What's so impeccable about that?



I love this forum but I am not going to keep mum in order to stay here, there are a lot of cool people here, many interesting and awesome posts, private practice forums for those who want to share aspects of practice. It's GREAT sans the lately increasing paranoia, what gives? It really has gotten pinched lately, back in the day I was pleasantly surprised that people could say the things they said without getting banned. I saw you step back and let it flow here wolf but somethings got you buggered lately.



Lets just chill now folks and keep enjoying what we have here and laugh a little more often, we all fools and sometimes we are wise too.

[rosygyro]

nice elephant! How does he not get skull between his toes?You would think some boards and rope "sandwich style" would be much kinder on the elephant!
Even if a bit too clinical for the man!

[Wei Shan Yang]

"For someone with no guilt that was a long defensive spield wei shan."



Hmmmmmmmmm. was it?
Lunoor, not sure if you called me a nagual, sounds like you did...I am not a nagual, just so you know. I stopped believing there were nagual and non-nagual people a while ago. To me its about the realization that we all are the same essenceless awareness.

[Gonzo]

@Elias -



First of all, you have no information I'm interested in, so I'm not prying. Secondly, I need not discredit you - you do a fine job without my help. A true Nagual would not declare himself to be one, nor would he bother to defend anything about himself. (I refer you to your own signature line.)



fwiw, I don't do "dream" anything with, to, by, from, or in any way connected with anyone. If you're having problems with another dreamer, it ain't me.



That said, all I did was present an alternative point of view towards the earth and the business of being a human, which, in my opinion, does not conflict with the notions of don Juan. I would point out to others posting to this thread that I was quoting from "Illusions" and before engaging in knee jerk reactions, I would suggest you read the book.

[rosygyro]

A true Nagual would not declare himself to be one, nor would he bother to defend anything about himselfA true NaguaA true Nagual would not declare himself to be one, nor would he bother to defend anything about himselfl would not declare himself to be one, nor would he bother to defend anything about himself.

GONZO... Thats rubbish!


A nagual is a life orientated being whos sole purpose is to uphold the interrelationship of life!
and that includes sorry bunches of sparseley connected internet groups of whatever religion, ethos , cult ,or spirituality.... if the need is there for a webwork to be made!
A nagual is not purported to interfere with anothers personal destiny.. But only becasue the amount of energetic attachment this brings about.. can limit his effectiveness within his workings as a co-ordinator for the interrelationship of all life..


WHERE it suits his purpose.. HE can reveal himself in anyway he chooses.. including exactly as he is!
Or do you think a nagual teaches others by lieing through his teeth..


If carlos had to be scared shitless into his pitiful "power shell" by DJ..
you can bet your fucking life DJ was being very very true about who he was...! (statement)


secondly if your too blind and fucking insulting to recognise a nagual when he shows himself to you..
he has tobe brutally honest about who he is and jolt your pathetic energy centres with true energy of the nagual!
which IS an act of defense because he doesnt want your SLUGGISH non belief jading his every footstep becasue your too much of a (swearword) coward to see whats blatantly standing in front of your face!
hence not only deliberatly limiting your own freedom.. but fucking up the nagual in the execution of his duty (a dangerous thing).


Its one thing to seek the truth and be a bit **** at doing it..
Its anoither thing entireley to situate yourself in the middle of a bunch of us.. and be a loser sceptic who drags the whole tone down to dismissal and non-belief..
in fact its retarded..


hey heres a song by some christians.. Its where is stand.. as a nagual!""""
please open your fucking eyes for fucks sake£
or at least listen to the lyrics!

[rosygyro]

besides wasnt illusions all CIA bullshit?

[Grand Speculator]

Its anoither thing entireley to situate yourself in the middle of a bunch of us.. and be a loser sceptic who drags the whole tone down to dismissal and non-belief..

The thing about being in the middle, is that he can't escape. He is betting that he is surrounded by pussies though. 


The Chinese say "Beware of what you wish for, for you might get it."


He likes to provoke. He has gotten away with it so far. hehe

[Lunoor]

No wei, I wasn't including you in with the naguals, I listed the names of the naguals I was speaking of and don't even think dreamways states he is a nagual, just that he could become one.
It makes me angry when people act like it doesn't matter a damn that our environment is being trashed before our eyes. Wei, It made me angry when you brought up that story about consumers and let the businesses off the hook by saying they wouldn't do it if we didn't buy it. In fact those governments and corporations create the conditions that lead to our dependence on them by their very nature, they are domestication machines. The whole thing is so incredibly complicated; the thrust of history,  the force of actions in time,  the mass of ignorance and fear, generations upon generations of conditioning to keep us all in placepace, a narrow band holding back possibility?......this makes me ask, how can this last? How can you hold back possibility? how can you hold back chaos? how can you hold back change? How can you hold back the flowers that are in every facet? This will not last, Love is the Law, natural Love not con damn sumerism! Consumerism doesn't exist! except in our heads, let us not forget we have im mage i nation, the only nation that counts and a HEART, we have a heart, oh open me! and in that heart connection is the spirit's face of loving, the kindness that takes courage and gives change power, and we have this, we simply don't realize it generally because we have been huddled under these monuments for so seemingly long yet we were here before all this....we have been growing and changing all along; coming in every sizes and shapes, organizing, organelling, organ grinding, pumping and thumping, playing, shining, singing, clapping and flapping, blossoming, sporing, slowing down, getting creaks in the joints, turning brown for the winter, dying back, going to the grave, decaying, being et and eating, rusting, getting born, becoming fine curves, getting wet, getting born, having thorn and along with thorns comes blossoming, that is the Rule! Folks, it's time to blossom! thus speaks the spirit in my ear.
Eilias, I am sorry.  My ego wants recognition so envy has been out and happy to shake hands with ego blubber gut. True, I don't think gonzo is in your dreams like that but yeah he is probably in your doubts as rosy said. Is it always bad to have doubts? Its a fine edge, a thing that can keep you from megalomania or a thing that can steal your resolve to build a foundation.  I have seen myself getting so inflated when i am kissed by the spirit and then mistakenly carrying over the idea of that experience into my tonal trying to keep something that has passed .  My best doubt came when I could no longer deny the destructive capacity of my ridiculous and false ID, my flyers mind/ego/programming in my own and others lives, that's when I chose to use doubt as a wedge to get this cd that's glued in the drawer to pop out so I can listen to a different song, maybe even pick up my guitar and play some  improvisational music. I think a person should be familiar with what their dialogue says but then comes the time to see what it is doing in your life, to stop buying into the things that aren't in accord with reality such as my often inflated opinion of myself and ideas about what I am doing. Reality is that which is in agreement with my living from the heart, for me anyway.   Apparently I am seeing my reflection in you and it is your destiny to find your own way and find for your self what is real, that is, what your path with a heart is as it is mine as well in my life.  Yours may well include going to Hawaii and helping to restore balance here, Good breath to you, that is, good wind of the spirit.  
I have begun to get out of my ruts, I need to get deeper within myself and find out in experience what is real for me, hence these doubts about naguals who say they know the workings of things and predefine what will be seen by many who follow after them, who look to them for maps of the terrain. I need to know from within and I think its a load of **** that naguals are infallible, and it's a load of **** that they shouldn't be questioned about their authenticity in living the path with heart and their impeccability tested. There are things I have read here that make sense to me, some things I have some experience of, and many things I haven't the slightest clue about. I can't just believe them because its expected or desired that I do so. I want to know for myself.
I often notice that the things I write to other people are also and primarily addressed to myself though they may apply to others as well. Once again I have had a good learning experience here on line at this site and I thank you all for that and Wolf you for hosting this place even though I have given you some grief lately.

[Guest]

Lunoor: Do all the forum folks have to believe everything that you naguals say? Do we have to believe that dreamways knows universally about dreaming experiences and what makes a sorcerer? Do we have to believe that wolf is infallible? Do we have to believe that your dreams are entirely accurate about reality and that you are soon off to Hawaii to save the world? Lets save it now, lets cut back on our bullshit, whatever it is. Man, I feel like I can't even speak my mind for fear of getting the boots here, is that how freedom makes you feel?



You make an absolutely perfect point here. Noone is expected to believe blindly what anyone says, even naguals. Naguals are not infallible, period. They have faults just like the rest of man kind. Some smoke, some drink, and some enjoy dirty jokes. They even face many of the same issues the rest do such as income problems, relationship problems... the only difference is in the way they approach the challenges which they encounter. You are wise to question the motives and opinions of others. Intelligent people are in great demand. The only way to decide what is truth and what is not is to explore it for yourself. Watch the character of others, judge how they act (are they acting in the best interest of you or themselves?), how do they behave when they're angry or threatened?



I encourage you to seek the answers to your own questions. Trust your instincts, you will feel it when you are being misled. However keep in mind that even naguals are growing and developing into themselves. They will make mistakes just like others, we all stumble. Instead of pointing out where they faulter, why not support them in their growth and they will do the same in return (that's of course if you know any naguals ) But yes, please continue to speak your mind. Doubts will not be addressed with a closed mouth. Open it and let some air in, haha, you may be surprised by what you find.

[Wei Shan Yang]

Lunoor, you told posters here to chill and laugh more often yet now reveal you were angry when you posted...just pointing that out, that you were not light about things when posting, which I saw at the time and glad to see you saying so, I know its not easy to do that. I still sense you're angry at me, and I hope that changes but either way its fine.
"Wei, It made me angry when you brought up that story about consumers and let the businesses off the hook by saying they wouldn't do it if we didn't buy it."



They wouldn't, because what would be the use of making a product if people didn't pay money for it? I know some hate the whole monetary system, but for those who do, try doing like my friend did and go live in a teepee, its not easy to do and I'd bet you'd miss your home, electricity, store supplied food, and all other comforts. But, that's what it takes to not be a consumer. And each consumer, no matter how hard we all try to avoid it, is supporting the production facilities, technologies and machinery even indirectly that pollute and use up resources, it's just an 'out of sight, out of mind issue' for many people. 100 years ago, our great grandparents most likely had to look their food in the eye before they ate it, now we are very desensitized by comparison, want machines to do things, but machines take energy sources to operate etc.
.

[Wei Shan Yang]

"Naguals are not infallible, period. They have faults just like the rest of man kind. Some smoke, some drink, and some enjoy dirty jokes. They even face many of the same issues the rest do such as income problems, relationship problems... the only difference is in the way they approach the challenges which they encounter."



Kaomea, in what way do you see the nagual's approach different to the challenges they encounter?

[snowblind]

The first "real" conversation I have seen here...great stuff! You go!

[Guest]

"Naguals are not infallible, period. They have faults just like the rest of man kind. Some smoke, some drink, and some enjoy dirty jokes. They even face many of the same issues the rest do such as income problems, relationship problems... the only difference is in the way they approach the challenges which they encounter."



Kaomea, in what way do you see the nagual's approach different to the challenges they encounter?



@Wei Shan Yang: I like your question! I see the approach they take as one out of complete love. They have faith in that everything they are going through is for a reason. Being so if they don't like their life, they have to take the same steps everyone else does in resolving the problems they face. One of the differences is their approach to life. For some reason it is easier for them to understand that the difficulties they are facing are not due to faults of themselves (taking a less egocentric approach). Every difficulty they encounter should be approached from a place of love for the person/people they interact with. Everyone deserves knowledge if that is what they want and the naguals are there to ultimately provide what others are looking for. Stability, protection, and love. They are our bitches! (Sorry, it really does seem that way, the naguals are here for the rest of the world, hence that would make them our bitches! rofl) They are no better than anyone, their hearts beat just like yours and everyone else. It's just they were unlucky enough to have the burden of leading everyone else to a higher level of awareness. They did not choose this for themselves, they were chosen. Not because they are special, but because of their capacity to love with no expectation of anything in return.



Although in the unevolved nagual, their approach to dealing with difficulties is marked with anger, resentment, and hurt. This is not because they are selfish, it's because they don't understand yet that the bigger picture is about the cohesiveness of the group. They are still growing and you cannot punish them for that, they are trying. We are meant to stand together, make positive choices as a whole not as individuals. Noone, not even the naguals are on their own level. If they were, it would be an unequal balance of power and that would fight against cohesiveness. They must bring themselves to the level of those around them and humble themselves, it is only then that they will truely evolve into what they're meant to be and be able to lead others the way that was intended.



Haha but what the hell do I know, I could just be making all this **** up

[Guest]

"Naguals are not infallible, period. They have faults just like the rest of man kind. Some smoke, some drink, and some enjoy dirty jokes. They even face many of the same issues the rest do such as income problems, relationship problems... the only difference is in the way they approach the challenges which they encounter."



Kaomea, in what way do you see the nagual's approach different to the challenges they encounter?



@Wei Shan Yang: I like your question! I see the approach they take as one out of complete love. They have faith in that everything they are going through is for a reason. Being so if they don't like their life, they have to take the same steps everyone else does in resolving the problems they face. One of the differences is their approach to life. For some reason it is easier for them to understand that the difficulties they are facing are not due to faults of themselves (taking a less egocentric approach). Every difficulty they encounter should be approached from a place of love for the person/people they interact with. Everyone deserves knowledge if that is what they want and the naguals are there to ultimately provide what others are looking for. Stability, protection, and love. They are our bitches! (Sorry, it really does seem that way, the naguals are here for the rest of the world, hence that would make them our bitches! rofl) They are no better than anyone, their hearts beat just like yours and everyone else. It's just they were unlucky enough to have the burden of leading everyone else to a higher level of awareness. They did not choose this for themselves, they were chosen. Not because they are special, but because of their capacity to love with no expectation of anything in return.



Although in the unevolved nagual, their approach to dealing with difficulties is marked with anger, resentment, and hurt. This is not because they are selfish, it's because they don't understand yet that the bigger picture is about the cohesiveness of the group. They are still growing and you cannot punish them for that, they are trying. We are meant to stand together, make positive choices as a whole not as individuals. Noone, not even the naguals are on their own level. If they were, it would be an unequal balance of power and that would fight against cohesiveness. They must bring themselves to the level of those around them and humble themselves, it is only then that they will truely evolve into what they're meant to be and be able to lead others the way that was intended.



Haha but what the hell do I know, I could just be making all this **** up

[Grand Speculator]

Why o' why people expects a perfect master, when they are not perfect apprentices?


Power provides according to one's impeccability. What you get is what you deserve.


Instead of finding flaws outside, work in the flaws within. Or come here and **** and whine.


It is not the fault of Naguals that nobody is up to the challenge.


If you get a half-baked nagual, it means you are a half-baked seeker. How do you like them apples?

[Grand Speculator]

PS: Flaw finders will always find flaws in others, for that's all they ever see.

[Guest]

Grand Speculator: It is not the fault of Naguals that nobody is up to the challenge.
If you get a half-baked nagual, it means you are a half-baked seeker. How do you like them apples?

@Grand: HAHAHAHAHA, that is such a funny thought. I love it. How you like them apples that is just so awesome. I enjoyed the points you made. Too bad for the naguals though, they are still expected to become impeccable even if their followers aren't. They have to be at the end, it's like teachers. You can't teach to the bottom of the class, you gotta teach to the top but keep things accessable to the everyone else. It's a hard challenge they face! Let's hope they're kr8ive bitches!