What is the double ?

[Guest]

From cultural point of view I have got two references as to what the double is .... Finno-Ugric/Siberian and Australian Aboriginal.
But as to what the 'double' means in Nagualism, I'm not too sure .....
In both Finno-Ugric/Siberian and Australian Aboriginal cultures the double is related to a Totemic Ancestor.
In Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime ....
.... Ancestral Spirit Beings, both in their animal & human forms roamed the earth.
They created in their epic adventures the features of the land; the rivers, hills, waterholes & rock formations .... all species.
they controlled the movement of the sun and the moon, the stars, rainclouds & tides and established Sacred Laws and customs.
Conception Totem:
The life cycle of an Aboriginal person doesn't start at the moment of birth, but at the time of conception.
Of course Aboriginal people know about intercourse and it's results, but for Aboriginal people The Spiritual Essence of the child is more important than the physical aspects, therefore by conception .... what is meant, is when this Spiritual Essence enters the womb. This is a moment a pregnant woman recognizes .... and where this moment of recognition takes place .... on what Ancestral Spirit 'Dreaming Track' .... near what 'Spirit Pool' .... Site .... determines the child's Totem. It is his/her Conception Totem.
Conception Totems then are Spirits of specific places where mother/parents felt the child to have been conceived.
Conception Totem gives the child his/her identity, his/her connection to the land and it's Dreaming Spirit ..... therefore the person and his/her Dreaming Spirit (in a form of a Totem) and the land cannot be seen as separate things.
To belong to a Totem provides an individual with life long obligations .... (to the land as well as social and spiritual obligations).
In Finno-Ugric/Siberian Totemic system people also belonged to a totemic lineage by inheriting their mother's totemic line.

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In both of these cultures ....a person does not have a Totem Animal .... a person is his or her Totem Animal .... because one has got a Totemic Ancestor, this Totemic animal then being his/her "other dimensional" double.
In both of these cultures .... more perceptive emphasis is put onto this "other dimensional" (totemic) "double" than to a person.
In Finno-Ugric/Siberian culture this other dimensional double of a person was/is called/regarded as T-h-e (Real) Self .... rather than the physically manifested persona ... The word/name "T-h-e Self" is attached to the double in order to teach perceptual preference and also how to recognize it.
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In general .... in the modern western world we relate to one another person-to-person, but with indigenous folk relating is done more on double-to-double terms .... or more precisely incorporating both the physical manifestation of a person and their double perceptually ... (thus observing two perceptual realities in ordinary everyday existence).
Two reality orientations result from; -whether you identify/regard the physical manifestation as your (real) self .... or whether you identify/regard the other dimensional (totemic) double as your (real) self.
There is quite a remarkable difference.
Nagual Lone Wolf ...... could you please explain somethingins regards to what is meant by the double in (Toltec) Nagualism ?
Artnwere
P.S. I'm afraid I'm given to explanations ..... and if this is not in 'alignment' with the intent of the board please let me know.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Interesting in that spirits are referred to as doubles in pre-history.
Totec double would be a separate awareness with its own agenda that is aware of you but your not generally aware of it until achieving a joining that is made through practices of nagualism by moving your assemblage point to the place of the third attention, and also the death of body.
The double is created by dreaming for those with two or less sides or configurations. A being with three or four sides will have been born with a double. Sides are a description of a awareness of the power that created it generally referred by the indian seers as the "eagle".

[Zitter]

hey....
i just realized the fact our awareness that IS into the dreaming body/double, in another way...great...
from time to time i quietly thought about castanaedas questions in "teachings of don juan" ..
when C.C. asked again and again if he was REALLY flying or if it was only imagination...if somebody would have seen him flying too, or if this person would have seen a sleeping body...
i just realized that we can REALLY say that we are having two bodys...that in dreaming OUR awareness is into our second body.....and in this case it dosent matter if our oranic body is still lying in our bed or where ever..
we have the possibillity to transfere our SELF into an energybody ...and that is REAL!
great...

[Bob May]

The Spiritual Essence of the child is more important than the physical aspects, therefore by conception .... what is meant, is when this Spiritual Essence enters the womb. This is a moment a pregnant woman recognizes .... and where this moment of recognition takes place ....
Interesting. I've never heard this before.
When Elizabeth (John the Baptist's mother) saw Mary (the mother of Jesus) approaching, the Babe "Leapt in her womb", and she began to prophecy.
I wonder if that may have been the moment of "Conception that you are speaking about. Bright Flame

[Bob May]

A fearful experience (experienced when "stopping the World") when subjected to it after having been raised in Western culture. Takes some getting used to.
It would not be so (frightening that is) when raised to be aware of such things from birth.Bright Flame

[Guest]

Nagual Lone Wolf
Yes ... well ... in the Siberian 'system' (to 'organize' awareness), these different parts or dimensions to our awareness are often called 'souls'.
Simplistically put the physical body-mind awareness is one soul, the dreaming-double/energy-body as another soul, the link to the Creator/Infinity as the third soul .... but when a person goes through a "Shamanic Death" experience, a person is said to have gained an additional soul (This additional soul is given to the person in initiation by the Thunderbird .... Grandfather Eagle).
The 'additional soul' could be described as an aware and active power-field of that link to Creator/Infinity, which from then on guides/rules the person's life, for his/her life no longer is his/her own anymore .... (not in ordinary sense of the word anyway).
i.e. a bit like that non-dual (third ?) attention had now become an actual power *entity* in a persons life. I suppose a bit like the difference between intuiting (nondual) third attention and acting from & with(in) the field of power of that (nondual) third attention.
I suppose this additional 'soul' could be likened to the term 'Nagual' ....
So are you Nagual Lone Wolf referring to this Nagual counterpart of a sorcerer as his/her double ?
Is a 'sorcerer' who acts from the field of power of third attention a *double being* ?

Zitter
Yes .... we really, really, really can say that we have got two bodies ....
Quote:We have the possibility to transfere our SELF into an energybody
Well .... yes ....
The organic body is your self, and the astral/dreaming body is your self also .... we do have multidimensional points of reference to our awareness, that we can shift and/or 'evolve' into.
But as I understand, we do need all of these dimensional reference points to our awareness in working order ..... to arrive to the so called "totality of ourselves"; - i.e. we do not become aware of other dimensions or worlds in exclusion of ordinary reality, but in addition to it.
These dimensional reference points all compliment one another .... within our 'totality'.
A bit like looking and seeing. Once we learn to see, we don't get rid of looking, but our perception gains different emphasis.
Ordinarily we look at things, taking everything for granted by automatically interpreting everything, but sometimes if things do not fit to our interpretations we afterwards try to think or make up or try to imagine what we had seen.
But if we had a (cultural) consensus emphasis put on seeing as t-h-e (real) way of perceiving things, we would learn to do things the other way round. We would see (sense/feel with our double or lets say energy-field) .... first ... and then look at the details which we had just seen/witnessed.
It seems that as we become aware in 'third attention' (?) .... our perception becoming a nondual 'witness'.... the two selves (the body-mind & the dreaming/energy-body) reference points to our existence become mere extensions or expressions or functions of that higher awareness reference point or 'higher order' .... which we now see & experience and identify with as more real ....
Bob May
Quote:When Elizabeth (John the Baptist's mother) saw Mary (the mother of Jesus) approaching, the Babe "Leapt in her womb", and she began to prophecy.
How interesting !
Yes, that sounds similar to the Aboriginal "Conception" I was talking about.
Thank you for writing about this.
Quote:
"A fearful experience (experienced when "stopping the World" when subjected to it after having been raised in Western culture. Takes some getting used to.
It would not be so (frightening that is) when raised to be aware of such things from birth".
Yes when experiencing 'altered states' it certainly does help to know that others have 'been there' before and experienced similar things, because the greatest threat is not the 'shift' itself, but that the mind cannot accept what is happening & starts to fight the situation .... thus 'soul loss' may result as the person becomes traumatised.
Once again I am not too sure, what is meant by "Stopping the World" ..... ?
Did read Castanedas books yeeeeers ago and they were a great inspiration, but of course one needs to intent/create ones own experiences from there.

Bright Flame ..... Could you please expand a bit more on your "Stopping the World" experience ... ?
Artnwere

[Nagual LoneWolf]

"I suppose this additional 'soul' could be likened to the term 'Nagual' ....
So are you Nagual Lone Wolf referring to this Nagual counterpart of a sorcerer as his/her double ?
Is a 'sorcerer' who acts from the field of power of third attention a *double being* ?"
It is my knowledge that a double being has the requirements of a "nagual". A sorceror creates a double and then learns to enter its awareness through dreaming. The condition of the third attention is present once the double has been able to enter the world of its host.

[Bob May]

Artnwere
Hello Artnwere and Hello my friend Lone Wolf.
I suppose "Stopping the World" can refer to anytime you have a "reafirmation from the world around you".
You realize that there is more to the world than meets the eye.
But I usually am referring to a world view changing experience.
But as Don juan told Carlos, it happens a little at a time and the All At Once.
No longer are you reminded by little revelations (reafirmations), but at some point the whole world changes.
You see more in people than you knew existed. More than one being taking up the same space at the same time. You are literally experiencing two worlds at once.
As with Genaro, I experienced all of the people around me had changed and many were controled by fliers or demons.
And that they taunted me and tried to prevent me from reaching my home.
Also, just like Genaro I had the overwhelming urge to return Home and see the people I knew, my parents, my brother and sisters. To find out if they had changed also.
With Genaro it was Ixlan, with me it was Bridgeview Illinois.
When Carlos asked Genaro when did he finally get back to Ixtlan, his answer was somthing like: You do not understand, I can never return to Ixtlan.
That is the way it is when you step through a veil.
Oh, yes my life returned to normal vision and experience after several weeks. And I could funtion as a "Normal" human being. But I can never go back to my world view that I had before that time. I know too much,..and yet I know too little.
I can never go back to Bridgeview Illinois, though I have been there many times since then. Just as an old man cannot go back to being a child.
The veil is ever thin for me. The door is always available and open when I wish to experience somthing "other"
I would have it no other way.
Nothing had changed. I was just seeing somthing I had not known had existed before that experience. That was my goal, and I had achieved it.
I have had many experience since that time. Many very "good" experiences.
This is the way it works. This is symbolised by Noah letting a raven out of the window in the top of the Ark (third eye) before he let out the dove. Then later the dove returned with an olive branch (symbolising peace).
This is because the lower planes are first experience because they are nearer to this "earth-plane". Later we learn that there are higher planes and higher aspects to human beings. We will experience these, also.Bright Flame

[Guest]

Thank you Nagual Lone Wolf and Thank you Bob May for telling your story here.
I can relate to it on so many points.
"I suppose "Stopping the World" can refer to anytime you have a "reafirmation from the world around you".
Yes, I trust I know what you mean ..... that happens quite often & I put it down to "having an active link to Spirit/Intent/Infinity".
"But as Don juan told Carlos, it happens a little at a time and the All At Once.
No longer are you reminded by little revelations (reafirmations), but at some point the whole world changes".
I quite enjoy one Buddhist teacher's description about this giant cosmic pancake falling on one's head, and when it falls .... it falls everywhere on the face of this earth; - the point being that there simply is no way of escaping the awareness of it ....
And afterwards ... the world will never be quite the same anymore. From that point of view both the problem and the promise are "cosmic".
"You are literally experiencing two worlds at once. More than one being taking up the same space at the same time".
Yes ...... exactly !

"And I could function as a "Normal" human being. But I can never go back to my world view that I had before that time. I know too much,..and yet I know too little".
Yeah .... this is it.

"Oh, yes my life returned to normal vision and experience after several weeks. I can never go back to Bridgeview Illinois, though I have been there many times since then. Just as an old man cannot go back to being a child".
So true. I feel like I can return to "normalcy" .... but then "normalcy" for me now would be as fake and as transparent as a 4 year olds first lie .... and besides, it no longer holds any real passion for me ....
"The veil is ever thin for me. The door is always available and open when I wish to experience somthing "other"
I would have it no other way".
Yeah, same here ....
"This is because the lower planes are first experience because they are nearer to this "earth-plane". Later we learn that there are higher planes and higher aspects to human beings. We will experience these, also".
I feel, that once we have gone through this said "Stopping The World" experience, there simply is no other option left but just keep on 'evolving' into these 'higher planes' ..... a very lone journey it is.
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I suppose in Buddhist version "Stopping The World" could be related to "Satori" .... in Christian tradition to "Born Again" experience, in New Age terms one may speak of experiencing "The Unity or Cosmic Consciousness" or the "I AM" - state ..... and in Siberian Shamanic system "Stopping The World" sounds similar to a shift of awareness to "The World Tree".
In that system this shift is often heralded by the sound of thunder (when there is no thunder) .... a moment when Thunderbird/Eagle comes .... (there being a sense of a giant energy-field hovering about, which looks & feels like an giant Eagle) .... ready to descent ......and when it does ..... time stops ...... and yet at the same time one may perceive a tree swaying in the wind, thus recognizing that because there is movement, one is still in time as well as perceiving eternal timelessness .... all at the same time.
From that awareness shift reference point .... timelessness is seen unfolding as time, the unmovable forever in motion and 'oneness' or noneness rather ... is perceived as myriad form emanations ....
Australian Aboriginal people talk about The Rainbow Serpent. The Rainbow Serpent is said to hold the whole creation in her belly, and when the thunder sounds, that's The Rainbow Serpent's voice ......
When The Rainbow Serpent 'comes' .... the experience of having entered into timelessness (=Eternal Dreamtime) is similar to the Siberian Thunderbird's descent from the top of the World Tree ..... but if you are having "The World Tree" experience in Aboriginal Dreaming mode ..... there will be a Kingfisher on that tree swaying in the wind ..... because The Kingfisher is part of the 'Stopping the World' experience ..... in Aboriginal version.

There is a good site, that also talks about a similar thing .... but this time it is The Great Bear that is being summoned:
members.fortunecity.com/m...st_son.htm
It seems, that people are having these kinds of "Stopping The World" experiences world over, but in different (actual reality) 'dreaming versions' of it .... experiencing either Thunderbird, The Rainbow Serpent or The Great Bear ..... (or Holy Ghost's descent ?)
I would therefore fathom, that however the 'Stopping The World' experience may come to one, it would manifest itself to you in accordance to your 'Dreaming' ... (i.e. in accordance to your cultural/past lives/subconscious symbolism).
Bright Flame .... would you care to tell how exactly world (time ?) did stop for you ..... and what happened next ?
I mean you don't have to .... I'm just so curious ....
Nagual Lone Wolf ....
In South-American Indian Mythology .... (or 'Dreaming' versions) .... would you say that 'Stopping The World' happens, when Spirit calls & one's awareness shifts deeply into the 'Third Attention' ????? ..... and thus "The Double-God Xolotl or The Jaguar or The Hummingbird" .... reveal themselves to the "initiate" .... or doesn't it relate like this ?????
Artnwere

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Hello again Bright Flame, as always it is enlightening to have such a powerful spirit in this internet power place that we share words and meet such as you and our new member Artnwere, who voices new knowledge and new visions of old and new. It is good to meet other warriors and know that one is not alone in this experience.
When the spirit is seen and accepted a true warrior is as you both describe. There is no going back.Never. The eyes of your fellow men/women show you that. You become lost unless you can accept this change and go with it. Many pretend they are still "human" but it is useless except as a stalking intent.
When I stopped the world I became free. I saw as you saw. I knew then of my double. I saw what my enemy was. I broke the spell of enslavement. The task next is to take that double and make it merge with oneself. Thus the third attention. Warnng however that with that inner knowledge comes the fact that one is never truly alone.

[Bob May]

Yes and more than just good. It is I believe a life saver for some on this list.
When I discovered the Casteneda books (back in the mid-seventies) there were only four in print.
I put everytihing I had into those excersises for two years. My goal was to stop the world.
I moved away from my band and family and friends. I went to live in southern Illinois, hundreds of miles away.
All except one friend who was with me there. That friend had introduced me to the Castaneda books. We discussed the concepts quite often. But he was more of a philosopher and I was actually living it.
One day, weeks after I had stopped the world, and still struggling with this new "double reality" that I was living in, my friend changed also. I saw the flier in his face as I had in so many others.
He who had helped me through so many difficult thingss was no longer the same as I. He was another foriegner in this strange land.
It was like I was alone in the sea and had just lost my life-boat.
It was then that I began my "jouney to Ixtlan" to see if anyone was the same.
This is what this list is for some. A life-boat And you, Lone Wolf, are to be commended for it.
I would have given my right arm for someone to talk to during that trying time in my life.
But talking to anyone that I knew about the things that I was experiencing at that time could have meant ending up in a mental institution very possibly.Bright Flame

[Guest]

Nagual Lone Wolf, Bright Flame ....
"It is good to meet other warriors and know one is not alone in this experience".
Yes, you are right ......

"Many pretend they are still "human" but it is useless ...."
Heheheheh .... Been there, done that. What a Folly !
Still I guess, we do need to wear out the last threads of attachments we may have to the "world" .... so to speak.
"There is no going back. Never. The eyes of your fellow men/women show you that".
So true. Though ..... (& I have written this before to another forum) ..... Ever had a situation, when you have looked into the eyes of another, and seen y-o-u-r-s-e-l-f ..... looking back .... at yourself ....in the f-o-r-m of another person; - thus instantly recognizing your very own most innermost soul & spirit essence standing there ...... in that other person's body.
When that happens, there is a sense of a silent communication dawning upon you both, like a "Holy Spirit". You know each others innermost, without a word needed to be spoken about it, a state of such "obviousity" (things being too obvious and too intimate to talk about) ... that you do not want to "name" the situation but just live the enchantment of it.
In that, there is a sense of unconditional love, that just "IS"; - unconditional love, that is given and received without there really being a giver nor a receiver of it.
A sense that .... just because we exist, we are valid in this Universe, no other "credentials" needed.
When you experience this "oneness" with someone, it is like ....since eternity, you have never been apart, nor shall you ever be .....and this Oneness is something which can not be gained or achieved nor can it be possessed but it rather is there for all times for us to recognize it.
Also in that "Oneness" there is a sense of a "Cosmic Joke" about separateness and appearances, because for oneness .... all that form separateness ..... really is .... just a joke.
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Ok. The above mentioned "Oneness" experience is not t-h-e "Stopping The World" shift, but when one witnesses another like that or sees something nondually .... there certainly is a perceptive sense of time having halted down to a slow motion .... like in the movies.
My "indigenous" Grandmother was like that, psycho-spiritually she was still very tribal, she just didn't have a separate-self-identity, but only existed in alignment to things ..... and from early childhood together we would sit for hours entering into inner silence, into "one spirit" .... that being the "place" my gran could best communicate all that she was .... Yet none of my other relatives could shift to that "place" with her & that was my first shock revelation.
Then at school we had a teacher and another classmate, this boy & all 3 of us would enter into, what I would call "Space Awareness Third Point" (A collective "space-centre" assemblage point) .... that then being the second shock .... because the rest of the class didn't shift.
This teacher was very religious, but she never preached it, instead she acted it by being impeccable "In The Eyes of Spirit" ..... so I followed her example.
But what I hadn't realized, was that all that year I had been accumulating "personal power"..... till this "Force-Field" started to hover above me (dimensionally speaking). It was silent then, felt like high voltage power lines/cloud circling & in my 10-11 year old mind, I thought: "Oh, that must be God then" !
The Force Field was beckoning me to call it upon myself. But what would happen if I did, because I would be changed ... & how would I be able to relate to my parents afterwards ....
My teacher was excellent, but this Force-Field had not come upon her .... so she would not be able to help me afterwards either. Would I die ?
I could not resolve these problems, so I stopped "being impeccable" and started to focus on things that would make my energy-level come down, in order for that "Force-Field" to go away. And it did.
At the age of 23, came across "Journey to Ixtlan" ... Couldn't put that book down for one single minute, it was like I had been waiting for this very book a-l-l my life, it was as though I like so knew it already ... even though I had never heard of the things described in it. Can't remember what it said exactly, but in this one part it was talking about personal power ... and how power would come over one ... or something. That one sentence was all I needed; -it was possible to let that "Force-Field" come upon one and start a new life with it ! So then one night I opened up, I was ready: "You called once, now I accept" !!!!
From then on I was "guided", - told where it would happen ..... synchronicities also started to happen, images, visions.....
A month after ...one night, alone in this "shared apartment" I heard a distant rumble, like a distant thunder (or a jet-plane for that matter) ...which caught my attention and I "shifted". into this highly suggestive ... hypnotic state ... of "dimensional communication" with this thunder sound ....deep into the silence.... and "time stopped".....
But then to my surprise the church bells started ringing ....so I was in time as well. But this time the sound of those bells, my awareness & Eternity were one ... & every atom in a blade of the grass would have known what that sound meant, there just being no-where to hide from this "Dimensional .... Eternal .... All Pervasive" sound.
That moment was a realization of the "Eternal Essence" (so to speak) & in the "Light of The Eternal Essence" I saw my life ... and I felt so ashamed, therefore I gave myself a solemn oath to dedicate the rest of my life to it.
Then this enormous Force Field entered my small room & in the immediacy of the situation I had no time for thoughts & just surrendered and simply died on the spot when "The Force-Field" engulfed me. Don't even know, did I have a blackout and for how long, but then I found myself back in the body .... sitting there in my room. Looked around, but something had changed, I had changed, everything had changed. It was as though the "veil" had been lifted. The Spiritual Essence, The "I AM" was in everything, it was just too obvious ... and the Essence/Source had given me a Power Animal "symbol" as a "go between" ....
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Well, that's my story, whether it will be of any use to anyone else or not.
Must say I haven't impeccably lived up to my "death" .... did at first, but then later tried to escape it .... yet that is the challenge which is always there..... it never ever leaves one, not even for a minute ....
So there one is "between the rock and a hard place" one could say .... a lot of the time.
Came to live in The Central Australian Desert country ....as there still are "Naguals" here .... a lot of power places and all that .... which I have been utilizing to "stalk myself" ...... and besides Australian Aboriginal people are excellent *seers* & assemblage point of awareness *shifters*... because it is kind of difficult to like forever live in the world and among people if you never ever are being *seen* by another.
Sorry for such a looooooooooong story.
Artnwere

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Artnwere...your story being told here is what this forum is all about. It is a forum for warriors... Those who have changed or are in the process.
The force field you mentioned is very much a excellent description of the spirit and its intimate nature when descending upon a warrior.
What do we do with it? The next step many ask?
We find others. We prepare. We know that there is a chance for freedom but the risk is that we give up life here on earth.
So precious is life.
Bright Flame...I totally understand what you mean. I was the same and to this day other than here and a few I know do I speak or write of this awareness of the nagual.
You who read this try and understand that the double percieves the nagual/spirit while the average man ignores it.
His double interacts with this power, for regardless of whether we see it or not it is there.
The spirit will come to those who seek it, create a link with it, and clear their mind of the flier influence.
You who do this will be awakened if your ready to believe. Lone Wolf

[Guest]

Hello to all, i'm new in here)))
I would like to thank you for this beautifull theme.
It has been very illuminating and helpfull for me.
my respects to you.

[Guest]

Hi back Saranica ...
Nagual Lone Wolf .....
The problem with describing these kind of "altered states" is that because they are beyond the dual mind, therefore they are also beyond any words, and one often then needs to resort to mythological language in order to describe them ..... such as a Thunderbird/Eagle coming and "swallowing" the initiate ... only to "spit" or "****" the initiate back into the body "re-arranged".
Sometimes cultural mixing and matching works, other times it doesn't and we run into contradictions ....
Did just recently find your thread: Defining the Tonal and Nagual ....p222.ezboard.com/fsorcery...ID=3.topic
..... and I suppose it is this .... your description of the tonal then; - which I have associated with and as the "other dimensional double".
In ordinary everyday reality; - how I see this "other dimensional double" is:
On Western, (white) people I sometimes see a superimposed image upon a person, but from another; - past era, therefore I have associated this superimposed image with that person's past life ..... and if I turn my head from the image .... I sometimes see a past 'scene' unfolding with that superimposed image in it.
In many ways the person now still acts from the energy (or subconscious or "dreaming") patterns of that past. Therefore I suppose "fate" fits that description well, because who the person was then will very much determine who the person is or has a potential to be in this life .... now.
On indigenous people though, the superimposed image that I see upon them, is that of their Totem Animal, so if I look at the person I am looking at their human form, but if I engage my "dreaming ..... or second attention" (?) .... the animal is them. Like switching from looking to seeing .... back and fourth.
In Finno-Ugric/Siberian terms .... this 'superimposed image' is the double. It is also called "T-h-e Self" or "The Shadow Soul". The term "Shadow" in turn means a protector or a guardian .... as the shadow is seen sheltering the physical body-mind ....
When a person gets dramatised the "soul loss" refers to this .... (what we term as) 'the double' ....
The "Dobbelganger" is also an apt description of this ...... as many times a 'vision' .... or an energetic feeling of the ... (what we term as 'double') can be seen or felt present prior to a person's arrival say; - because a person is able to project this 'double' ahead of themselves, in it's human or in it's totem animal form.

In "Shamanicing" it is the energy .... heat .... shine ... or fire of this double, (in animal form also termed as the inner energy nature of a person) ... a Shaman raises in order to magnetize communications with intended spirits of other dimensions .....
The more that 'double' starts to shine .... the more it starts to attract/magnetize Spirit Energy and Spirit manifestations.
Therefore the heightened/shining energy of this 'double' is also seen as a persons 'ticket' (& personal power) to access and utilize (impersonal interconnectedness) energy ....I mean, that's the point in Siberian Shamanism .... to be able to handle fire ..... non-dual energy.
Animals also possess a "Shadow Soul" f.e.x. a Dingo's "shadow soul" is very, very cat-like. Looking at a dingo one is looking at it's wolf/dog-like form, but witnessing the inner energy (patterning) of a dingo, i.e. seeing the superimposed image upon the dingo or in other words seeing the inner energy projected into the auric field of the dingo ....one sees a cat ! Therefore the dingo's behaviour is governed by cat rather than wolf/dog-like behaviour (dingoes even purr !). And if I was to "shape shift" it is this inner energy that I would first identify with ... tune into .... before projecting .... (Though I have not as yet learned to shape shift .... not really).
So in many respects, what you Nagual Lone Wolf describe as "Tonal" fits to our understanding of the "other dimensional double", except that we do identify this inner fire energy and it's 'visible' to seeing (projected)form in the auric field as The Self (i.e. the double) and our understanding also is that it is the energy patterns or the 'dreaming' of this inner energy (Self) that does reincarnate.
Seems that we 'project' both the tonal and the nagual qualities to it .... the 'double' being like both, yet neither of these two .... but rather a kind of an energy "middle man".
Maybe my understanding of this 'double' does refer to the "Etheric Body" (?) then, therefore it is connected to the physical body and it's magnetic energy field or aura, and when I mentioned in the beginning of this thread that with indigenous folk communication is more on double-to-double terms .... what I mean is, that at times upon meeting an indigenous person say ... on the street .... we both stop and exchange our news without a word needed to be said, because you can "read" all your answers of a person's inner energy from a persons energy field. As Astral projection is the projection of conscious mind via the etheric double or energy body .... from that etheric double one can shift one's awareness from physical looking to (astral) or trance-like seeing, thus perceiving 2 realities; - the ordinary and the "superimposed realities" within everyday reality. So I guess, this is why my Siberian Ancestors called this (maybe) Etheric Double as The Real Self, because it is a good (impersonal/personal ... both) assemblage point of awareness to identify with in order to communicate with "Universe" in more "energetic terms" & a good point to "shift" from also .......
Found this yogic view on etheric body and shape shifting in the net:
What is shape-shifting? As I understand it---from a yogic point of view---The process is one of thought. While asleep, we all travel out of our physical bodies, but for so many of us there is no memory of this. Sometimes, we may just mistake it for a dream. However, a person with this siddhi, or yogic power, can do this consciously. This involves two different methods entirely. First of all, there is the bi-location effect, where a person is seen miles from where they are. This is the famous Doppelganger, or the etheric double, which really isn't a separate body or sheath, but part of the physical body manifestation. It is a form of shape-shifting, but it is the same image and it is in a subtle form. The other type of shape-shifting, is where the form is more solidified to appear as a normal physical body. This can be done during different periods of time depending on the person. Some yogis have the ability to shift to numerous bodies, and some can take a different form or forms altogether. It all depends on mind control, and the abilities reached in previous incarnations.
Even though here we may be talking about the 'double' in seeming contradictory terms .... still what you wrote in the "Try this" thread shows, that in practice we seem to be doing (or maybe not-doing) a similar thing.
p222.ezboard.com/fsorcery...ID=7.topic
For not only are we able to feel/sense our auric/luminous cocoons ... or egg like shells, but also feel/sense and intuit with it .....using the whole auric/cocoon energy as an *awareness sense* to perceive the world(s) in a more energetic/seeing terms. This is such a valuable exercise, what you had written in it, because it activates the 'double' in waking reality terms and shows us how our dreaming reality and waking reality are intrinsically intertwined.
So I suppose in summary ..... witnessing another person's energy field vibration (within ones self ) or seeing that inner energy fire/vibration take 'visionary' forms superimposed on a person's "aura" ... tells a lot of that person in energy terms.

What a difficult subject to try and define !
Hope I made some sense, as I am trying to piece it together ... tangled up in my own contradictions in efforts to describe it.
Artnwere

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Hello and Welcome Saranicka. I recieved your email and will write back soon. Anytime that what is written here is appreciated makes it all worth the typing and communicating.
About the double: The double is seen to be slowly created in dreaming by the human if at all. Some would call it the dreaming body. If you could leave your body in dreaming and see it laying there and look about the room then guess what?
Your in your double. This is you and if your lucid and spend some time doing this you would soon realize that while in this state your like a new being. With new powers and a whole new set of rules to learn about the world. The more you remember while in this state affects your awake reality.
The edges become more blurred and it becomes more difficult to separate the two realities. When one can use both perceptions at once, this again achieves the third attention.
The double created that leaves the body and acts, and the dreamer has no memory of those events still has a double that does leave the body. This is a most common state.
What the double does is what bothers many. The double often when left to its own devices becomes prey to other aware powers in the dreaming worlds. Anyone who achieves lucidity in dreaming realizes soon that they are not alone.
A nagual with basically two doubles even more is challenged by power and awareness. How might this work you may ask? Not yet will I answer.
To look upon a being and to see its "double" is a act of sorcery. Remember that their double is defined by their personal power regardless of their orgin.
A dog may have a powerful double or none at all that is visible enough as an example.
The tonal yes is us and we seek while living to realize our nagual and hopefully merge the two so that we can be complete.
I do state that I do not believe in "past lives" here though, I believe that there is only one organic life here for each of us.
Artnwere, I do very much appreciate what you have been teaching and relating here. I always want to keep learning and becoming more aware. Whether my views are different than others who read this means little for I, as a warrior in flux try to remain fluid and not fixed to any certain belief so that I may grow and expand my awareness.

[Bob May]

I once heard it said; "I don't mind finding out that I am wrong,....because then,... I'm right!" That's fluidity!Bright Flame

[Guest]

"The edges become more blurred and it becomes more difficult to separate the two realities. When one can use both perceptions at once, this again achieves the third attention".
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss !!!! E-X-A-C-T-L-Y ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Joy ! Joy ! Joy ! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
You totally nailed "it" with that sentence ! You did mention this before, but I still wasn't quite sure ..... but now it does look like that we are on the same page, because that precisely ! is, what I'm talking about ..... perceiving 2 realities from a third point of perception. And is that "Third Attention" point Self or No-Self ..... I'd say it is both, yet neither.
I do separate the two realities though (one would be quite mad if one couldn't) .... but at the same time I do see just how intrinsically intertwined these two realities are .... as they do so overlap.

"A dog may have a powerful double or none at all that is visible enough as an example".
Yes .... well .... the Dingo that I almost ran into (over 2 years ago), that had a powerful "shadow soul" i.e. "double", was no ordinary Dingo for it had this "unearthly" or "other dimensional" glow ... shine to it. But that's another loooooooooooooooog story.
"A nagual with basically two doubles even more is challenged by power and awareness".
In my way, I do know what the second double is ..... but that can only be "achieved" or reached rather in Third Attention ..... it being the nagual's nagual so to speak.
Are we still on the same page ???????
******************************************
......and Lone Wolf ..... Bright Flame ......
Yes, I totally do agree with you. Even though I do seek explanations to altered states experiences "all over the shop" .... still facing the "unknown" one must not know again .... and I'm not afraid for being wrong either & exactly for that same reason !
Artnwere

[Nagual LoneWolf]

(smile)..the nagual's double is the double of the double.
Thanks for making me smile today..this is good.

[Guest]

'Your in your double. This is you and if your lucid and spend some time doing this you would soon realize that while in this state your like a new being. With new powers and a whole new set of rules to learn about the world. The more you remember while in this state affects your awake reality.'
This "some time" seemes to be very short to have a good meeting with one's double and to produce a good awareness of reality. So usually we are adviced to remember and remember. For example I have bad memory. May we obtain some methods of more direct, spontainous nature? NOW and HERE.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Hello Welleyes. Methods to access your double include stalking your self through silencing your internal dialogue and then to use this silence to feel the double within.

[Guest]

Hello, Nagual Lone Wolf.
I see the first moment is the silencing of internal dialogue. To my mind the time period of silencing, which may be reached usually is too short. Perhaps not only me, but many persons do not have succeeds in stalking of internal process thanks to this reason.May be there would be an unknown factor to apply?

[HerbaMatey]

SomeTimes Inner Silence, which has its Voice, will choose its own time! This is what I have found in my own notetaking. And by disengaging myself for a moment from silencing the voice the voice can express itself independently without my true self speaking. Perhaps it is something else's voice you hear! LoL! What a bizarre probability.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Wellyes...as Herbal confirms. When the internal dialogue has been attained this silence is noticed by the nagual and the inner emanations within align. IF a warrior has enough personal power the voice of seeing will then come to a warrior and he can with intent use it to see.
Silencing the internal dialogue is the first step to seeing and thus why it is sought. A few seconds or minutes depends on the warrior whether it is enough time to move his a.p.

[Guest]

Hello Nagual Lone Wolf
Recently I obtained an effective method to silence interhal dialog. A person must keep one simple pose for some time. What can you say about it. Visit site:
www.transyog.net