Controversy

[DoktorGreen]

Controversy. The basis of good discussion!
I am going to post a couple of commentaries that might seem controversial. This new forum is as good a place as any! In the spirit of the title of this forum, I will say that I believe that all healing is an effort to become whole. Now, you may think that I am speaking of becoming a 'whole person', reaching and utilizing your 'whole' potential, etc. ... I am not. I am speaking of becoming the Nahual; the true whole.
Traditions, including the tradition CC preached and many others try to emulate, are nothing but baggage. A true Nahual needs no tradition to teach an acolyte. He needs no prescribed ancient ritualized procedure. I propose to you that a Nahual "sees" exactly where the acolyte is and what his/her potential is. He can concoct a 'tradition' that will exactly suit the student! And he does! Juan Matus was such a Nahual. Carlos was not. He never did "get it". Thus he could not carry on the work. He simply wrote about the "tradition" that Juan Matus made up for his unfoldment. The proof of this is the dogmatic system he turned it into.
Now, for those of you that will say that there are concrete measurements and goals that students reach, I say to you that those same signposts are present in nearly EVERY tradition. The fact that energy and power has predictable traits does not mean that a specific path or tradition is 'the one'.
Regarding Nahual wannabe's out there today.... if they are offering a similar or modified version of a tradition that was 'concocted' for a specific student (recently OR long ago...), then they are feeding their own needs and I say they offer nothing. A true Nahual speaks only as the whole. Any description of their work will be focused from the whole; the Nahual. All comments and assignments will emphasize the whole as a given and will not confirm the false 'separatness' that is born of the ego.
What say you??For the Standing Mother,
DG

[seeitall]

where is C.C. dogmatic and D.J. isn't? I agree
that most of C.C. work is writing what D.J. said,
but where's the dogma ? any examples ?-------------------
Got gold ?

[DoktorGreen]

Carlos created Tensegrity. That is the dogmatic system I speak of. He was a great reporter, but never became the Nahual, the whole. Everything he brought forth was bound in mental concepts and recognized the self as a separate entity trying to reach higher into the Nahual. This is dogma. We are all in the Nahual. There is no one outside the whole! We are charged as drops in the Ocean of Purity with expanding light into the darkness; growing the Nahual. The darkness... the unknown is here in this duality.
Regarding Juan Matus, he attempted to instruct Carlos in the understanding of the "great unknown Tonal" Once seated consciously in the Nahual, one finds that the only unknown is outside the Nahual....., here in the Tonal. Carlos never caught this and continued to live and perceive as a separate entity. For the Standing Mother,
DG

[Mornings Son]

Interesting.
I like the idea of a True Nagual that 'invents' the system that is best for the apprentice.
On the other hand through history all around the world, spiritual system have evolved. With these bodies of knowlegde it have become possible to be pass on knowlegde to many students more efficienty.
So if you can't find a True Nagual to educate you, you must go with the 'regular' stuff.
If we did not have the body of knowlegde from CC, then it might be near to impossible for us to communicate about a common truth on a forum.
What is your advice for the many people seeking Knowlegde Doctor?

Mornings Son

[seeitall]

C.c mission was to go public, not to teach a few
acolytes. a hard task in this crazy world. too early to judge.-------------------
Got gold ?

[seeitall]

and mind you to remember even d.j. had a hard times
when teaching C.C. it was a real chalenge for him, not
"I'm the whole nagual, I know exactly what's
best for you"-------------------
Got gold ?

[Bob May]

I agree whole-heartedly with what Doctor Green has said.
In my Spiritual Journey, I started out with Casteneda and found that it was best suited for me in the respect that the "mystery", and the Romantic strangeness of it appealed to me.
There are some very "Real Principles" that help you no matter what system you belong to.
But even Don Juan said that the Sorcerer's World (or description of the world) and the average person's World (or description of the world) are BOTH illusion. And that the trick was to find your way "between the two" to become a Man of Knowledge.
Once you "Stop the World" (in the full sense of that phrase), using the Principles layed out in Journey to Ixtlan, you can dispense with the Castaneda books all together. You have achieved 90% of the whole reason for the teachings of Don Juan.
You have first hand experience of the Truth that says; this "World" or "World Description" is nowhere near as real as we thought.
Stopping the World is a True Initiation from God, Spirit, or the Nagual, in any True Spiritual System in the world.
As Stopping the internal dialog is the Most important "tool" to achieve that Initiation (and it remains an important tool throughout our spiritual journey)
The only difference between Don Juan's system and others is terminology.
Shortly after "Stopping the World", I found that the Bible and the Qabalistic interpretation thereof are the Path for me. In my opinion, being a Christian Qabalist is the "System" or "Path" that is the most Direct, Comprehensive and most Powerful Path to the "Source of All".
But, within my chosen Path, I will accept no Dogma, no opinions (unless verified by myself in the Bible or Qabala). I attend no Church, and have not for more than 10 years.
It is between Me, Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit (which are One) and the Principles layed out in the Bible and Qabala, (which are also One).
In other words, I am a Christian, and so, I belong to NO RELIGION AT ALL.
Anything outside of these guides is merely "window dressing".
The ultimate Goal for all who put their foot upon the Path of Spiritual Progression is the Source of All.
Learn all that you can along the Way, but allow no distractions.
Stay on the "Yellow Brick Road".
Keep your eye on the Prize.
Bob

[DoktorGreen]

seeitall:
You said-
"C.c mission was to go public, not to teach a few
acolytes. a hard task in this crazy world. too early to judge."
I would respond that he did a great service, in that he brought a new and interesting look at spiritual unfoldment to the public eye by presenting the teachings of Juan Matus. That being said, I find minimal value in the personal teachings he offered.
again you-
"and mind you to remember even d.j. had a hard times
when teaching C.C. it was a real challenge for him, not
"I'm the whole nagual, I know exactly what's
best for you"
Well, there is a lot of writing by CC to make a general comment, but it seemed to me that it was Carlos that had the difficulty. I do not recall anytime when Juan Matus was at a loss,... he did have to make many adjustments as he encountered the various layers of resistance presented by Carlos.
Again, the emphasis came from the whole, or Source as Bob May says. Juan Matus wouldn't say "I'm the whole nagual, I know exactly what's best for you"!! Who would he say it to? As he dwells in the Source, he automatically recognizes what another part of himself (Carlos) needs for balance and unfoldment! There is no identification of another separate energy. Jesus claimed that no one would approach the father except through him. He wasn't speaking personally; he was speaking as the whole; the Source.
I say that all traditions that embody separateness in their work will return separateness to their flock. I have seen the web. There is nothing but me. There is nothing but you. There is nothing but us. Native American wheels, used to traverse the 4 directions always return to this place where we are in the end. That's because when we realize we are one, we once again take up the battle here, against the duality.... the darkness. Warriors of the Source. Moment-to-moment. For the Standing Mother,
DG

[DoktorGreen]

Mornings Son-
I have no advice. I must dwell in the arms of the Source on a consistent basis (just like you) to renew my daily awareness of the whole Nahual. Who knows better than you? You ARE all things!
For the Standing Mother,
DG

[Aranno Way]

I remember D.J saying focus on the abstract, for it is there that spheres intent of the unknown-"I think".
Its been a while since I read that comment.

[seeitall]

hmm, I dont understand you folks. DG says
we are here to expand the ligt in the darknes
(i.e. we were kicked out in this world of duality) ,
but at the same time our grand goal is to get back
to source to win the big prize
(says Bob) ?
tell me, why do you want so badly to get back to source,
instead of overcoming the darknes here ? or is it a payment
for your dedicated hard work , or vacations ? if
the spirit wanted you back, you would be already back
(ah, sorry I forgot the free will fairy tale)
the reason why I think C.C. got it is he does not
sell you things like "ultimative end goals, enlightement, prices, ...). He says
that there is no final goal, there is only a struggle
till the end. that's what I can understand.
-------------------
Got gold ?

[seeitall]

DG wrote:
>I do not recall anytime when Juan Matus was at a loss,...
He helped him build his own group consisting
La Gorda and others, which was a total screw up.
He did not realize soon enough that he was not a regular
nagual not suited for this type of config.
how come he did not know it if he was the Whole ?
-------------------
Got gold ?

[Bob May]

""the reason why I think C.C. got it is he does not
sell you things like "ultimative end goals, enlightement, prices, ...). He says
that there is no final goal, there is only a struggle
till the end. that's what I can understand.""
The reason that Carlos tried to "sell you" on the idea of
no final goal and struggle forever, is because that is all he had to offer.
He should have been more concerned with; what does it mean to "slip past the Eagle", or to"be eaten by the Eagle?
And what, if anything, lies beyond that.
Carlos only related personal experiences in terms of Toltec knowledge that he was being taught.
It was not the same with Don Juan. To him there was a goal.
You have to read between the lines. A great deal of what Carlos wrote was second hand information,...things that he had never experienced, but was told by Don Juan.
Carlos was a student. An advanced student, perhaps, (to whatever degree or other I cannot say), but a student never-the-less.
In the study of the Qabala, we are living in the lowest of possible Worlds. Below this, there remain the "Infernal Planes." Here, it is a continuous struggle. It also is an impermanent Plane. Nothing lasts. Even the very stones around us erode away, given enough time.
Our bodies only last just so long.
To think that 80-90 years in this land of struggle and then, OBLIVION, does not compute.
You can believe what you want to, but I would suggest that you meditate upon or at least ponder the concepts mentioned above. What would it be like to be eaten by the Eagle? and What would it be like to "slip past the Eagle?
The "Sorcerer's" or "Toltec" system of knowledge still leaves those two questions unanswered.
The answer to those two questions is the reason for every Religion and/or spiritual philosophy that ever existed.
The older you get, the more real the concept of "using death as an advisor" becomes.
I will 53 years old in a few days. I grew up in an American Irish/Catholic family. My father was the youngest of 11 children. My mother also had brothers and sisters.
I was always going to funerals as a child, and it was required to go up to the coffin and look at the corpse.
That generation is gone every one along with several cousins and even a nephew who was killed at an early age.
Also my parents and any aunts and uncles who were "married into" the family. Some who were "close" to me.
My whole point is that I had a "headstart" in life concerning Don Juan's concept of "death as an advisor".
I was aware of it before I ever picked up a Castaneda book.
As a young child it is a frightening thing.
As an older man it is a truth that is with you continually, a constant companion and teacher...
At some point we must stop avoiding it, or even fearing it, and learn from it.
My humble opinion. My perspective.

Bob

[seeitall]

>He should have been more concerned with; what does it mean to "slip past the Eagle", or to"be eaten by the Eagle?
He did wrote on that more in Active side of infinity,
and it did look as some more advanced stage
of being, not the final goal.
I never read Qabala and I'm wondering what their belief system
is concerning what happens after we die ? do they
too believe in reincarnation or the heaven/hell stuff ?
-------------------
Got gold ?

[Bob May]

""some more advanced stage
of being, not the final goal.""
Well, that is a goal isn't it?
And the furthest you can advance is the Final goal.
Whether you it while still in this body or after you leave it is irrelevant.
I would prefer to find out as much as I can before my body wears out. If I can go further after that point, Great.
""I never read Qabala and I'm wondering what their belief system
is concerning what happens after we die ? do they
too believe in reincarnation or the heaven/hell stuff ?""
Some believe in reincarnation and some don't. Those who don't, feel that our only chance for spiritual progression is this lifetime, in this body.
Heaven and Hell is a strange concept that most people already have a strange understanding of.
In the shortest way of explaination; Qabalists study the "Tree of Life". It is a map of the Universe, so to speak. A map that encompasses alll the realms of body, soul, spirit and divine. Along with mapping out the appropriate powers in their appropriate shperes of operation.
So, yes, Qabalalists believe in manmy Heavens and many Hells that can be visited here and now while in this body of flesh.
And the plane that we live in,..that is, everyday normal existence called "The Gate", is smack-dab in the middle between the Realms of life and the lower, or "infernal" realms.
The sorcerer's world in qabalistic terms would be "right next door", or just outside of where we live. A good start on spiritual progression, but not really very different that "this world" that we live in.
The realms known to a "Man of Knowledge", on the other hand, those show some real progress.
Though the realms above "this World", or "The Gate" as I have called it, are ruled by certain heirarchys of angels arch-angels etc., The Gate is presided over by an hierarchy of demons and arch-demons.
Just how accurate that is I cannot tell., Btu it does illustrate to me the importance of spiritual progression in my life and also, what a fine "razors edge" we walk in this life.
The importance to me of the study of the Qabala is that it adds a bit of order and direction to an otherwise chaotic Universe.Bob

[Aranno Way]

Bob you are on to something and I think however way or term you would like to call it you are one of the few that that have a good approach on the cleansing the link of the lost connection with God, power, The great spirit,Source of light or any other word to describe the elements that plague us as humans confronted with our struggle.
My point is that you help put things in perspective as far as exemplifying one expression to another.

[seeitall]

warrior has no goals, he has only the battles to fight.
goals are construct of FI, no matter how noble they are.
I was always goal oriented, like a dog fetching the stick
again and again. want a freedom - go fetch it, want
to reach a source of all - go fetch it. it's always
the same. I'm on the road to nowhere, and the only
real choice that remais is to walk like an **** or a
warrior.
And you will end up in a thicket no mattrer what.


-------------------
Got gold ?

[Bob May]

""I'm on the road to nowhere, and the only
real choice that remais is to walk like an **** or a
warrior.
And you will end up in a thicket no mattrer what.""
Now it sounds like you have four goals.
Warrior, ****, The Thicket and Nowhere.
I have walked that path myself. Having stopped the world as a young man alone in a strange town in Southern Illinois.
Having left all friends and family behind and beginning to see things and beings that I had not known existed superimposed upon peoples faces and in the world around me.
It is a frightening and lonely experience that leads to chaos. That is IF you do not have a teacher, or a philosophy of some sort to guide you.
But, Hey, It's your existence, go for it.
I'm only giving my opinion.
Bob

[seeitall]

every opinion is welcomed, thanks.
when you come to a fork and decide between going left
or right, does it mean you have 2 goals - left goal
and right goal ? no it means you choose between some options
, but it does not mean you have to pursue any goal ,
at least for me. so I don't have a warrior goal,
I choose the direction according to my predilection.
But I expect nothing, no rewards,no achievements, one day, it will
be all over and there will be nobody to judge what I did,
even nobody that would remember or care.


-------------------
Got gold ?

[Bob May]

""But I expect nothing, no rewards,no achievements, one day, it will
be all over and there will be nobody to judge what I did,
even nobody that would remember or care.""
Maybe you misunderstand me. There are no "rewards" or "achievements" in the respect that we recieve some ego boost from ourselves or others. In my opinion it's all a gift anyway, so there is no room for an ego trip.
That is not what I am talking about.
There are "effects" or "changes in awareness" that are created by our viewpoints of existence and our place within it. Our personal "description" of reality.
My goal, if I must label it, is to grow in my awareness of reality.
And during that growth, if my life has any meaning at all, I will have an effect on other's growth.
My intention is that my changes in perception, and any changes in perception that I may help to foster in others, is toward Truth.
It does not matter if anyone remembers my name, or that I had anything to do with anything.
But my legacy would be that I made some sort of positive difference in the world.
And experience as much of the Mysteries as I can while I am here.
Bob

[Guest]