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Sorcerer's Explanation reviewed
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06-12-2011, 12:02 AM
I think the Eagle does represent a veil, and also it can be seen and experienced, and thus is a real thing. So its a shape of energy, and it has an impact on us like all energy does, but also its laws and operations upon us are not immutable. Seeing it is beneficial becasue then you know its real (in an otherwise invisible way), seeing it not with physical eyes of course.
06-12-2011, 12:02 AM
Nu Lang wrote:
I think the Eagle does represent a veil, and also it can be seen and experienced, and thus is a real thing. So its a shape of energy, and it has an impact on us like all energy does, but also its laws and operations upon us are not immutable. Seeing it is beneficial becasue then you know its real (in an otherwise invisible way), seeing it not with physical eyes of course.Hi Nu Lang, I will comment on both you and Ninth's posts separately but they are really one thing as I see it. I've had some visions. What I call true spiritual visions. These are of a different (Higher?) order than some other's I've had. It is the source of those visions that determine the difference. That they are real is not even a question for me because they are so much more real than what we are surrounded by in normal daily life. But what is more real than that is what they are teaching you. What lies behind these visions? So the end is to understand what is being taught. What does the vision mean? What is it teaching us? If we reach that end by vision or study or meditation or a realization just falls on us it does not matter. The end is the important thing. The end is the truth that is being taught.
06-12-2011, 12:02 AM
ninth octave wrote:
Bob May wrote: ninth octave wrote: HI Bob, Do you believe their is an allegory for The Eagle , the Rule, The Nagual's Party. ???The raven is a bird like the eagle ...The Rule is impersonal , lacks kindness or compassion. I see an allegorical story in this too.We all know how symbolism works. A symbol is the clothing for a truth. An author uses symbols to communicate ideas. Ther idea is the truth or idea that the author is trying to communicate. You might look at a symbol as a veil. In Western mystical tradition there is a saying. "The veil that conceals a mystery, when meditated upon reveals the mystery."These veils can be words written in a book, the elements of the physical world around us, the situations that we find ourselves in etc., Allegory is a story made up of these symbols and truths. After many years of bible study I found myself in the book. It told me exactly what I had done ten minutes before while experienceing a spiritual vision.Finding myself in the book was a life changing awareness of how this works.I see what you are meaning here, Bob. The Bible invites us in to have personal relationship with the Father and Son. I come closest to a Mary Magdalene with a cross between an Ezekiel and Gideon and Peter. Paul asks us to put on the mind of Christ, be imitators of his life. I am well behind in having much spiritual experiences but I believe every one living is written into the Logos. When the experience of finding myself happened I asked my teacher did the words change? How does this happen? He said that some parts apply more to some people than others. The words don't change. We begin to understand them differently.Paul referred to the OT scriptures as the "Oracles of God." Oracles speak to the now. People would travel miles to the Oracle at Delphi to ask a question.We learn the language of God not so that God can understand us but so that we can understand him.Any Jew or Christian will agree that the bible was written for us and to us. What we are speaking of here is that the bible also speaks about us. It is not taught in churches because the teachers have not experienced it themselves and neither did their teachers.My own teacher hinted at it by saying that the bible was a roadmap and a "Mystic's handbook" He only discussed it with me after I related my experiences in private.My own experiences followed Jacob and Joseph in the OT and I have gone over those stories with a microscope because of that.Lately and some since and because of this thread I have seen more about the sons born to Joseph and more about the recorded life of Jesus in my own life. His pattern working in my life.The bible is not a history book and it is not linear. Even though it is layed out in order of when each book was written for the most part. We may find ourselves anywhere but the End or Goal is growing into full realisation of the Sons of God, so the culmination will be in the New Testament. Yet we still learn from the Old if we read it allegorically. Because hidden within it, behind veils of symbolism is the New Covenant which actually started at Abraham. Before Jacob, Joseph, Joshua etc.Jesus said that Moses wrote of him.He also said that before Abraham was, I AM. By the way, to be imitators is not what I am talking about. There is nothing wrong with that mindset, but finding yourself just happens to you. Imitating is something we initiate. If you see yourself in a story, study it to find the hidden things and they will gradually come to you. And sometimes in very large clumps. The pieces add up all on their own it seems. That is Christ teaching us. Jesus was baptised and went into the wilderness. The first thing he did was find himself written in the book and read it standing in the synagog.This is an excellent example of what you're meaning. This is because he was showing us a pattern that we are completely unaware of until this experience happens to us. This is the way it has been happening for me. God showing the patterns of the OT matching to the spiritual experiences that equate with the blessing of those who can see the beginning and the end. To be in the spiritual experience or seeing someone in the spiritual experience is a blessing also. People's faces change during some spiritual experiences. I have seen people as various creatures. There are levels of us like an onion. It can be a frightening or just shocking depending on what level and, I suppose what person you are with. I haven't figured all of that out yet but it is very interesting. I have had similar experiences since then. Jesus said "Follow me" and "I am the way." This was not a request.All I could think was that the book was alive when this happened to me. No, it was I that was becoming aware or alive.The Book is pregnate and living and breathing organism. Never runs out of its energy and one will find a way to see things in a new and different light. It will appear for you to see and know in a different context when previously it didn't seem it was there. The greatest example of this is when you begin to get an awareness of Grace. To a person under the law the entire bible both Old and New Testaments is a book of rules and regulations. To a person under Grace it is saying we are free and loved and approved by God, that our shortcomings are not held against us. 2ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.To a person under the Law the verse above is condemning because how much study is enough? Is it ever enough? And if not we are not approved by God.To a person who is under Grace that same verse is telling us the reason to study and what to look for. The entire bible is telling us we are approved of God. That we need not be ashamed. That is Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth. Later, I began to see that this same thing was happening, not just in the book but around me in the environment and events I call my life. The Eagle is obviously a veil. It is covering or veiling a reality that sorcerer's wish to experience. There are many referrences to "Eagle" in the bible.And a good image of Jesus hovering above the Place of the Skull (Golgotha) with his wings of perception spread out as if beconing the entire world to join him. Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
06-13-2011, 12:02 AM
Bob May wrote:Nu Lang wrote:
I think the Eagle does represent a veil, and also it can be seen and experienced, and thus is a real thing. So its a shape of energy, and it has an impact on us like all energy does, but also its laws and operations upon us are not immutable. Seeing it is beneficial becasue then you know its real (in an otherwise invisible way), seeing it not with physical eyes of course.Hi Nu Lang, I will comment on both you and Ninth's posts separately but they are really one thing as I see it. I've had some visions. What I call true spiritual visions. These are of a different (Higher?) order than some other's I've had. It is the source of those visions that determine the difference. That they are real is not even a question for me because they are so much more real than what we are surrounded by in normal daily life. But what is more real than that is what they are teaching you. What lies behind these visions? So the end is to understand what is being taught. What does the vision mean? What is it teaching us? If we reach that end by vision or study or meditation or a realization just falls on us it does not matter. The end is the important thing. The end is the truth that is being taught. Bob, Yes, I agree the teaching is ever so important. The teaching is what liberates us from the concreteness of the real. So like you said, the eagle represents a veil, and I see it also as a hurdle, a challenge for sorcerers. I think some think its just symbolic and a device of literary explanations...I've read people who perceived it as such. So then it becomes only a metaphor and thus less imposing. I think there is something lost in this perspective. To see that the eagle is energy and it operates, as all invisible forces do, with a specific design and that design affects us in our experience of our existence, then we give it more weight/impact on what it actually is and does. If its just an 'idea' its something that can be ditched at any time. As in "oh the eagle, yeah I get what it means, it represents this or it represents that". It would be like living on another planet and learning about earth and thinking that spring, summer, fall and winter are metaphorical concepts, that they don't literally occur. But for the people on earth...they may not see spring as a thing, but experience its effects (springtime), becasue its a force of cyclic energy. The eagle is a force and has effects. Maybe the first sorcerers to witness it made in appear as an eagle because to them thats how it seemed, and then afterwards everyone else (other seers) saw it as an eagle, due to the first human contact with awareness upon it. But whether its appearing as an eagle of any other shape, we should consider its a force, and then to witness it and feel it in our seeing and watch its functionality. As I see it, its about what it does with awareness upon death. Thats the teachings, and also the teaching that the eagle is not the ultimate authority, even though it consumes awareness, it is not our creator. To see the eagle means we know it as part of our exisitence and how it impacts us humans and others of earth. If one thinks its metaphor, then perhaps they don't think the eagle will be a force met upon their death.
06-13-2011, 12:02 AM
Another way to look at this is...
We know that awareness is formless, that ultimately awareness transcends all limits. Yet we are here, in a human body, not an animal or plant, but a human. So we are in a specific circumstance even though our awareness is limitless. We have to face living as a human and also embrace the possibilities of the infinite. To discount either is to lose something in a momentum that would be powerful. So we can ask, who or what made us (decided we'd be) human? We don't know this, but we know its real and it occurred and so we are in a tribe of sorts called humans. Sorcerers, powerful ones, know how to shift their ap to be not human, so they transcend that fixed experience, but they still become somethign else, so they don't escape form. Also, if they transform into lets say a hawk, my understanding is they still retain awareness of once being a human. I don't know this for certain though, becasue maybe if they hold that ap long enough they forget they were human. I saw a t-shirt yesterday. Well, first of all, reading t-shirts is like a hobby here, because the Chinese like to wear t-shirts and they have english phrases on them, some pretty wild, some 'deep' some hilarious. The one I saw yesterday was: "If you don't believe in miracles then you are not a realist." oooooh, deep.
06-13-2011, 12:02 AM
06-14-2011, 12:02 AM
Bob May wrote:
ninth octave wrote: Bob May wrote: We all know how symbolism works. A symbol is the clothing for a truth. An author uses symbols to communicate ideas. Ther idea is the truth or idea that the author is trying to communicate. You might look at a symbol as a veil. In Western mystical tradition there is a saying. "The veil that conceals a mystery, when meditated upon reveals the mystery."These veils can be words written in a book, the elements of the physical world around us, the situations that we find ourselves in etc., Allegory is a story made up of these symbols and truths. After many years of bible study I found myself in the book. It told me exactly what I had done ten minutes before while experienceing a spiritual vision.Finding myself in the book was a life changing awareness of how this works.I see what you are meaning here, Bob. The Bible invites us in to have personal relationship with the Father and Son. I come closest to a Mary Magdalene with a cross between an Ezekiel and Gideon and Peter. Paul asks us to put on the mind of Christ, be imitators of his life. I am well behind in having much spiritual experiences but I believe every one living is written into the Logos. When the experience of finding myself happened I asked my teacher did the words change? How does this happen? He said that some parts apply more to some people than others. The words don't change. We begin to understand them differently.Paul referred to the OT scriptures as the "Oracles of God." Oracles speak to the now. People would travel miles to the Oracle at Delphi to ask a question.We learn the language of God not so that God can understand us but so that we can understand him.Any Jew or Christian will agree that the bible was written for us and to us. What we are speaking of here is that the bible also speaks about us. It is not taught in churches because the teachers have not experienced it themselves and neither did their teachers.My own teacher hinted at it by saying that the bible was a roadmap and a "Mystic's handbook" He only discussed it with me after I related my experiences in private.My own experiences followed Jacob and Joseph in the OT and I have gone over those stories with a microscope because of that.Lately and some since and because of this thread I have seen more about the sons born to Joseph and more about the recorded life of Jesus in my own life. His pattern working in my life.The bible is not a history book and it is not linear. Even though it is layed out in order of when each book was written for the most part. We may find ourselves anywhere but the End or Goal is growing into full realisation of the Sons of God, so the culmination will be in the New Testament. Yet we still learn from the Old if we read it allegorically. Because hidden within it, behind veils of symbolism is the New Covenant which actually started at Abraham. Before Jacob, Joseph, Joshua etc.Jesus said that Moses wrote of him.He also said that before Abraham was, I AM. By the way, to be imitators is not what I am talking about. There is nothing wrong with that mindset, but finding yourself just happens to you. Imitating is something we initiate. If you see yourself in a story, study it to find the hidden things and they will gradually come to you. And sometimes in very large clumps. The pieces add up all on their own it seems. That is Christ teaching us. Jesus was baptised and went into the wilderness. The first thing he did was find himself written in the book and read it standing in the synagog.This is an excellent example of what you're meaning.* Hey Bob, just this morning on Christain TV station, the teacher was in Acts 9: 20... (after Saul ( later Paul), for three days was blinded from the light of his vision he had with Jesus ) Does exactly as Jesus had done after He was baptized and tempted by Satan in the 40 days of fasting and praying in the wilderness.) Acts9:17-20 ..17) So, Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him sid, "Brother Saul, The Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent one so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."18) And, immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight and he got up and was baptized; and he took food and was strengthened . Saul begins to preach Christ. Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus . 20) And immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagouges, saying "He is the Son of God." This is a furthering example of how the Bible is pregnate alive in our lives and showing and adding to our awareness levels! This is how the Holy Spirit is working ..This is because he was showing us a pattern that we are completely unaware of until this experience happens to us. This is the way it has been happening for me. God showing the patterns of the OT matching to the spiritual experiences that equate with the blessing of those who can see the beginning and the end. To be in the spiritual experience or seeing someone in the spiritual experience is a blessing also. People's faces change during some spiritual experiences. I have seen people as various creatures. There are levels of us like an onion. It can be a frightening or just shocking depending on what level and, I suppose what person you are with. I haven't figured all of that out yet but it is very interesting. I have had similar experiences since then. Jesus said "Follow me" and "I am the way." This was not a request.All I could think was that the book was alive when this happened to me. No, it was I that was becoming aware or alive.The Book is pregnate and living and breathing organism. Never runs out of its energy and one will find a way to see things in a new and different light. It will appear for you to see and know in a different context when previously it didn't seem it was there. The greatest example of this is when you begin to get an awareness of Grace. To a person under the law the entire bible both Old and New Testaments is a book of rules and regulations. To a person under Grace it is saying we are free and loved and approved by God, that our shortcomings are not held against us. 2ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.To a person under the Law the verse above is condemning because how much study is enough? Is it ever enough? And if not we are not approved by God.To a person who is under Grace that same verse is telling us the reason to study and what to look for. The entire bible is telling us we are approved of God. That we need not be ashamed. That is Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.I also would like to say under Grace from God and also by the abiding love of the Son, Jesus. Whosoever believes in the name of Jesus Christ and calls upon his name has the power to cast out evil. Jesus defeated death on the cross ; defeated the serpent that Adam & Eve succumbed and set the captives free! Paul could say boldly, " Death, where is your sting! Later, I began to see that this same thing was happening, not just in the book but around me in the environment and events I call my life. The Eagle is obviously a veil. It is covering or veiling a reality that sorcerer's wish to experience. There are many referrences to "Eagle" in the bible.And a good image of Jesus hovering above the Place of the Skull (Golgotha) with his wings of perception spread out as if beconing the entire world to join him.Beautiful imagery here, Bob.. Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
06-14-2011, 12:02 AM
Nu Lang wrote:
Bob May wrote: Nu Lang wrote: I think the Eagle does represent a veil, and also it can be seen and experienced, and thus is a real thing. So its a shape of energy, and it has an impact on us like all energy does, but also its laws and operations upon us are not immutable. Seeing it is beneficial becasue then you know its real (in an otherwise invisible way), seeing it not with physical eyes of course.Hi Nu Lang, I will comment on both you and Ninth's posts separately but they are really one thing as I see it. I've had some visions. What I call true spiritual visions. These are of a different (Higher?) order than some other's I've had. It is the source of those visions that determine the difference. That they are real is not even a question for me because they are so much more real than what we are surrounded by in normal daily life. But what is more real than that is what they are teaching you. What lies behind these visions? So the end is to understand what is being taught. What does the vision mean? What is it teaching us? If we reach that end by vision or study or meditation or a realization just falls on us it does not matter. The end is the important thing. The end is the truth that is being taught. Bob, Yes, I agree the teaching is ever so important. The teaching is what liberates us from the concreteness of the real. As fallen human beings we tend to look at trhe more concrete things as more real. That is not the case. As we extricate ourselves from this material plane we can experience other realms of existence. More concrete = More real is the fallacy. I have been happily married for 30 years in November. Neither myself or my wife look like we did on our wedding day. Though I can still see her in the same way as I did back then. So what is more real, the bodies we live in or the love that binds us? So like you said, the eagle represents a veil, and I see it also as a hurdle, a challenge for sorcerers. I think some think its just symbolic and a device of literary explanations...I've read people who perceived it as such. So then it becomes only a metaphor and thus less imposing. I think there is something lost in this perspective. To see that the eagle is energy and it operates, as all invisible forces do, with a specific design and that design affects us in our experience of our existence, then we give it more weight/impact on what it actually is and does. If its just an 'idea' its something that can be ditched at any time. As in "oh the eagle, yeah I get what it means, it represents this or it represents that". Just because something is a metaphor does not mean it is not real. That is my point. Everything around us is pointing to something "above" or "beyond" this plane. That is Metaphor. Not literary metaphor, Real metaphor. In story form that is known as Allegory. It is up to us to choose to see the world that way or not to. Shakespeare said all of the world is a stage and we are but players. To what depth he meant that, I do not know, but sometimes we speak the truth at a very deep level without even knowing the depths of what we are saying. In the Western Occult Tradition there is the idea of Guardians on the Paths of the Tree of Life. There was an angel with a sword put at the gate of the Garden of Eden in Genesis to keep the way of the tree of life. Most people will never see this angel. But those on that Path of consciousness or awareness will encounter it and it will be more real than this world to them. It would be like living on another planet and learning about earth and thinking that spring, summer, fall and winter are metaphorical concepts, that they don't literally occur. But for the people on earth...they may not see spring as a thing, but experience its effects (springtime), becasue its a force of cyclic energy. The eagle is a force and has effects. Maybe the first sorcerers to witness it made in appear as an eagle because to them thats how it seemed, and then afterwards everyone else (other seers) saw it as an eagle, due to the first human contact with awareness upon it. But whether its appearing as an eagle of any other shape, we should consider its a force, and then to witness it and feel it in our seeing and watch its functionality. To an ordinary person the Eagle does not exist. To a sorcerer of the school of thought covered in the Casaneda books, if he travels that path he will see it. It exists as a thought form which has been built up over time by belief in it. It is a guardian on the path. The function is real, the appearance of that guardian may be completely different in another school of thought and it may even be completely bypassed if one follows another school of thought. As I see it, its about what it does with awareness upon death. Thats the teachings, and also the teaching that the eagle is not the ultimate authority, even though it consumes awareness, it is not our creator. To see the eagle means we know it as part of our exisitence and how it impacts us humans and others of earth. If one thinks its metaphor, then perhaps they don't think the eagle will be a force met upon their death. So, the function or question here seems to be, will our soul, memories, thoughts ideas etc., survive after death? If we are fortunate enough to have functioned in the spirit while still alive in this body, that question has already been answered.
06-17-2011, 12:02 AM
Hey Bob and All
Christian contemporary music has really-gotten some awesome sounds with biblical lyrics. Thought of Elijah , Daniel , Bob May , Lex Silentio. LW and all whosoever know about the fire! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoXT4vfZDks
06-18-2011, 12:02 AM
He's in a whisper, here.
Sounds a lot like "the voice of seeing that tells us what's what."
06-18-2011, 12:02 AM
This is my newest song. I haven't had time to record it yet.
Everything I own 1.When he was young he learned his father's trade. He worked the wood until it saw things his way. Fruit don't fall far from a tree. His life was all that it should be. Until the day he turned and walked away. There was a man from God who's name was John. People flocked to him from miles around. Then came the man from Galilee,.. You should be baptizing me. What we do now will make sense later on. Chorus It's getting clearer to me. It's nearer than the air I breathe. He had to go so he could come again. When he said “follow me,” That was a promise hew would keep. I'd give everything I own to be like him. 2.He walked from town to town throughout the land. Proclaiming that his kingdom was at hand. He said, appearances deceive. What you need is to believe. And one day soon you'll come to understand. 3.While he was here he plied his father's trade. He worked the crowds,.. until they saw things his way. Fruit don't fall far from a tree. His life was all that it should be. Until the day a cloud took him away. Second Chorus There's a river of life. Flowing down as clear as crystal. And a still, small voice in the wind. You can't put out the fire, That the son of God has kindled. I'd give everything I own,.. everything I am,.. And when he comes again,.. I'll be like him. End
06-19-2011, 12:02 AM
Nice song Bob, true words, so very true that we sacrifice everything for the nagual.
Some synchronicity and I posted about father son in Inner Landscape Mayan thread...check it out.
06-19-2011, 12:02 AM
Bob May wrote:
This is my newest song. I haven't had time to record it yet. Everything I own 1.When he was young he learned his father's trade. He worked the wood until it saw things his way. Fruit don't fall far from a tree. His life was all that it should be. Until the day he turned and walked away. There was a man from God who's name was John. People flocked to him from miles around. Then came the man from Galilee,.. You should be baptizing me. What we do now will make sense later on. Chorus It's getting clearer to me. It's nearer than the air I breathe. He had to go so he could come again. When he said “follow me,” That was a promise hew would keep. I'd give everything I own to be like him. 2.He walked from town to town throughout the land. Proclaiming that his kingdom was at hand. He said, appearances deceive. What you need is to believe. And one day soon you'll come to understand. 3.While he was here he plied his father's trade. He worked the crowds,.. until they saw things his way. Fruit don't fall far from a tree. His life was all that it should be. Until the day a cloud took him away. Second Chorus There's a river of life. Flowing down as clear as crystal. And a still, small voice in the wind. You can't put out the fire, That the son of God has kindled. I'd give everything I own,.. everything I am,.. And when he comes again,.. I'll be like him. Hey Bob May Loved the simplicity of the message and especially verse #2,#3 and the 2nd chorus Your singing voice is also very calming and gentle. Around where I live there is a Christian fellowship hangout place called Safe Haven. Part and parcel of a renevated gym turned church . Your music would do very fine filling the atmosphere. End
06-19-2011, 12:02 AM
Nu Lang wrote:
Nice song Bob, true words, so very true that we sacrifice everything for the nagual. Some synchronicity and I posted about father son in Inner Landscape Mayan thread...check it out. Hi Nu Lang, What do you mean when you say we sacrifice everything for the nagual?
06-19-2011, 12:02 AM
Hi Ninth,
It was a direct response to what Bob wrote, same meaning: I'd give everything I own,.. everything I am,.. And when he comes again,.. I'll be like him.
06-20-2011, 12:02 AM
Nu Lang wrote:
Hi Ninth, It was a direct response to what Bob wrote, same meaning: I'd give everything I own,.. everything I am,.. And when he comes again,.. I'll be like him. 1jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
06-21-2011, 12:02 AM
A bubble doesn't exist very long . Breaking the bubble of perception, is this metaphorical for thoughts quickly dissipate? or is it like a one time thing were your perception finally breaks thru a barrier?
06-21-2011, 12:02 AM
ninth octave wrote:
A bubble doesn't exist very long . Breaking the bubble of perception, is this metaphorical for thoughts quickly dissipate? or is it like a one time thing were your perception finally breaks thru a barrier? Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. I don't know if there is a "finally" involved here. The times I have had extra ordinary experiences what would follow is weeks of living in another world, so to speak. This "other world" perception usually last for a few weeks. It has happened many times and each time I think that this time it will be a permanent change. I think the bubble analogy is that when we are inside the bubble we are limited in our awareness and the stretching of the bubble and the thinning of the walls of it happen gradually and then all at once, it pops. "A little at a time and then all at once," is how Don Juan described stopping the world. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was as if a woman hid leaven in three measures of meal and after a time the whole was leavened. But he also said he came suddenly and quickly and in the twinkling of an eye. I've had this conversation with Lex and what I consider stopping the world, he relates to breaking the bubble of perception. It is difficult to tell which Don Juan meant because of this idea of permanence he mentioned in the sorcerer's explanation. He also uses this same type of analogy when describing the island of the tonal and the nagual as the sea. What I call stopping the world and Lex calls breaking the bubble, if I am understanding him correctly. It is definitely experiencing the outside of the bubble (or island of the tonal) for extended periods of time. Also, there is the idea of permanence in the fact that I can never look at the world the same way as I did before I ever experienced this phenomena. I just do not remain in the "thick of it," if that makes sense. The first time this happened to me it lasted for months and I had a very hard time coming back from it. I had no philisophical or religious structure that I could use to make any sense of it whatsoever. Only the first four Castaneda books as a guide. They are good at helpng to open the doors, but almost useless when it comes to closing them. Later it happened again several times and at these times I had some biblical and Qabalistic background to help me get through it. Still very negative experiences but with an interpretation based on biblical knowledge and symbolism. I realized that it is actually the story of Noah's flood. And in that story, God promises not to destroy the earth with water ever again. That was a big help to me. Now I find this phenomena very interesting and look forward to it but also as something that should be "bypassed." It is not the end game, only a another stop along the road on a trip that might never end. I think the idea of not thinking of ourselves more highly than we aught is applicable here. If I think I have arrived somewhere then I have no reason to seek further. That way of thinking is a block. I am not talking about humility, just practicality. What I call stopping the world has happened to me many times and each time it is different. The environment is not the same. But within those experiences which are second attention for the most part, come flashes of knowledge from above that that breaks through to help me understand more each time. These are the little stones (Petros) that Simon/hearing (Peter/Petros) recieved from the Father which turn into the One Stone (Petra) upon which the church is built. Jesus gave him that new name at that time. Hearing from the Father changes us. This is Revelation. This is what is important to me. Just as Jacob used "Stones" for his pillow when he saw Jacob's ladder which reached from heaven to earth. When he awoke it was One Stone and his name changed to Israel. His name changed because of this experience. We change because of this type of experience also. Wisdom is knowing without having known. It comes in pieces. Understanding is putting the pieces together into a whole. Both are Spiritual gifts. Again in Revelation the same theme occurs. The bride of Christ comes down from heaven (just like Peter's flashes of knowledge from the father) as One stone clear as crystal. Now your beginning to get into permanence. But I think it is closer than we think and that it is an individual thing rather than some distant event in the future. We have enough separate experiences and it all becomes one thing which then overcomes this description of the world we keep coming back to. The Sorcerer's explanation was not given to Carlos until he had had enough third attention experiences. You cannot have understanding without an explanation and you also cannot have understanding until you have something to put together to understand. The stones are wisdom. The Stone is understanding.
06-22-2011, 12:02 AM
" The Sorcerer's explanation was not given to Carlos until he had enough 3rd attention experiences. You cannot have understanding without and explanation and you also cannot have understanding until you have something to put together to understand." Bob May
My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding; he stores up sound wisdom for the upright; he is a shield to those who walk in integrity, guarding the paths of justice and watching over the way of his saints. Then will you understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; discretion will watch over you, understanding will guard you, delivering you from the way of evil; from men of perverted speech, forsake the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil, men whose paths are crooked, and who are devious in their way. So you will be delivered from the forbidden woman, from the adulteress with her smooth words, who forsakes the companion of her youth and forgets the covenant of her God; for harshness sinks down to death, and her paths to the departed; none who go to her come back, nor do they regain the path of life. So you will walk in the way of the good and keep the path of righteous. For the upright will inhabit the land, and those with integrity will remain in it, but the wicked will be cut off.
06-24-2011, 12:02 AM
ninth octave wrote:
" The Sorcerer's explanation was not given to Carlos until he had enough 3rd attention experiences. You cannot have understanding without and explanation and you also cannot have understanding until you have something to put together to understand." Bob May My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding; he stores up sound wisdom for the upright; he is a shield to those who walk in integrity, guarding the paths of justice and watching over the way of his saints. Then will you understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; discretion will watch over you, understanding will guard you, delivering you from the way of evil; from men of perverted speech, forsake the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil, men whose paths are crooked, and who are devious in their way. So you will be delivered from the forbidden woman, from the adulteress with her smooth words, who forsakes the companion of her youth and forgets the covenant of her God; for harshness sinks down to death, and her paths to the departed; none who go to her come back, nor do they regain the path of life. So you will walk in the way of the good and keep the path of righteous. For the upright will inhabit the land, and those with integrity will remain in it, but the wicked will be cut off. Hi Ninth, Very good illustration of the intimate connections between Wisdom and Understanding. Chokmah and Binah. The supernal Father and Mother. Force and Form. In the Qabalah they are said to be in permanenent or perpetual conjunction (intercourse) along the path that Daath (Knowledge) sits astride at the Abyss. This, I believe was what I experienced when taken up to that Sea of Blue/White Liquid Lightning that I have described before. A continual "orgasm" that illustrates the continual creation going on in the manifest universe. Or, rather that continually manifests this universe. The Empress Tarot card sits upon this path and she is pregnant. She is the spitting image of the woman described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Also the letter associated with this Path and Card is Daleth which means a door. when going thrrough a door we pass from "something" to "something else." Revelation 12 Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Re 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Re 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Re 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Re 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
07-24-2011, 12:02 AM
Gosh what a lot of words about this.
I actually embodied the sorcerers explantion bodily nearly 20 years ago. It took a long long time to get myself straight. I know its easy to write these words. Anyone can say such things. But here i am none the less, prepared to look like yet another ****. The thing that made me abandon the books all those years ago was that Carlos jumped off a cliff to test his knowledge, to test and get this 'explanation'. I couldnt get my head around that. I thought i understood all the concepts but actually jumping off a cliff and not hitting the bottom had me flumoxed. I mean if you drop pure speculation and look at what this really is, its just impossible. It was an impasse i came up against. I mean really, who here is ready to test their knowledge in this way? A cliff is real and there is no way to fake this. We either take the damn books at face value or we discard it all as clever psychological verbage. Stuck, I threw the books away. Several months later i found myself making a similar leap to that written about. I really didnt expect to survive. I did, but it cost me my mind and quite a lot more besides. I actually embodied the sorcerers explanation. Its such an easy thing to say. I know its described as devastating when you really get this explanation. Boy oh boy oh boy is that an understatement. To be honest i havnt read anything on the forum here to suggest anyone else has been through something similar. That doesnt mean they havn't, only that i havn't come across it. To be honest i am only saying this in the hope that it leads to genuine conversation with people who are real for me. That has been a long time since. I am naturally a very shy person and writing these harmless little words is actually a big deal for me, so my caveat is 'be nice' or i am off.
07-24-2011, 12:02 AM
Be nice or I'm off? Interesting threat. I wonder how don Juan or Julian would have responded to that statement.
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