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I would like to add some perspective to the current goings on here. By "current goings on" I refer to the collection of posts primarily being made by persyd, addendums by Lone Wolf, and commentaries by several others.
If I understand correctly what is being stated it would appear persyd is acting somewhat as a Scout Troop leader, identifying various members of this forum in terms of a Nagual Party as described in Castaneda's books. In addition to identifying these members, she is providing information in a general fashion on the purpose of the Party and means to avoid the Eagle. There are many vague and esoteric comments with a great deal of implication of vast powers and abilities, primarily in the Dreaming Realms but not restricted thereto. So far, Third Attention has not been mentioned, but I'm left with the impression we have a psychic warrior of powerful means assisting the chosen few.
So far, it would appear, as with the Heavens Gate cult, preparations appear to be being made for some sort or another of death, since death, corpse, decay, etc are frequently mentioned.
Here's the perspective I'd like to share.
We're not dead yet. We're here, in human form, to enjoy being in human form. We will die, sooner or later, but in the meantime, we have the mud, the blood, and the beer. I would prefer to plant my attention (fix my Assemblage Point?) in the moment of being right here, right now, with the fine steak, red wine, tasty cigar and good company.
I do not see that "way" as in conflict with the teachings of don Juan. In fact, I find it quite in accord with his teachings. One may interpret the teachings from a rather dark, dead, psychically powerful, menacing form as is being done, or one may interpret them in a way as to enjoy being human. The ONLY real goal don Juan mentioned, was not to become a Nagual, nor a Nagual Man, nor a Nagual Woman, nor a witch, nor a shaman, nor form a Nagual Party, but to achieve the totality of oneself. Even that, now, is being interpreted in a somewhat arcane fashion, the business of merging with "the double", and more death and destruction before the REAL totality is achieved.
The totality of self is achieved primarily via recapitulation and has nothing to do with magic, psychic ability, doubles, triples, various attention levels, the nagual, etc. Don Juan laid it out there...arrange the items of the tonal. That means deal with life as it is, understand who you are here and now in this waking realm. Lucid dreaming and astral travel are to be enjoyed, but I'm not sure of their educational value still.
Another way of seeing the teachings of don Juan is that they are a superb con. The true goal, as mentioned, is too simple, too boring, to be laid out in straight fashion, so in order to attract attention, we are presented with magic and power and the supposed means to obtain power (note the number of posts concerning becoming powerful, or dealing with power). If all the teachings are examined closely, their ONLY aim is to cause focus on the self...find who you are. The great teachers say exactly the same thing: Nisargadatta...."Ask who am I?" Too simple. Nah...I want to be a NAGUAL...nonsense.
Be who you are...why isn't that sufficient? Why not ask yourself why you feel powerless? Why not ask yourself why you feel hurt, or abandoned, or betrayed? Or why trust is important, or why you want friends, or love, or respect, or admiration? Why not ask why you are still not impervious to insult? Why not ask why you are concerned? Why you still fret? Why you cannot be alone, or remain silent?
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I agree with you Gonzo, (on the point of) that the link is there for all, all one has to do is seek it, then follow the guidance, path with heart continously. The only thing is change does not come without tremendous action. So a path is needed. I think there are many paths, and one should choose the one that feels right to them. We can learn from others on different paths still.
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Gonzo - you forgot to ask the great Deity for permission to question her authority. (just kidding!).
Thank you for your post - live for the day and seek freedom. It is not complex....but it is magical, as all life is magical.
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Nice statement of intent Gonzo but it has nothing to do with posts from Per Syd or me and it would be a surprize to me based on your past posts over the years that you believe anything you wrote except for the wine for dinner. Therefore your content of your posts appears somewhat misguided old friend. It common knowledge you have distain for nagual beliefs and in particular: sorcery.
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Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Nice statement of intent Gonzo but it has nothing to do with posts from Per Syd or me and it would be a surprize to me based on your past posts over the years that you believe anything you wrote except for the wine for dinner. Therefore your content of your posts appears somewhat misguided old friend. It common knowledge you have distain for nagual beliefs and in particular: sorcery.I believe it has to do with what you and persyd appear to be engaged in, from this standpoint: you are in the process of creating a Nagual Party, unless I misunderstand, and if, as I suspect, most of the teachings supranormal activites are cons, then ... one theory I've encountered concerning the Nagual Party is that it is a metaphor, that all the various "members" and their abilities are to be found within the individual, and that leads again to the goal of achieving the totality of oneself.
Disdain?...I have a great affection for the teachings of don Juan. I just think there is more than one way to understand them. In this regard, I find a similarity to some styles of Zen instruction, which basically is full of tricks and mind games. It's not that don Juan and others were con men, rather imo they were clever teachers. When you have at basis a quite simple goal to propose, what better way to present it and to grab attention than to surround it with mystical powers and potentialities? The one difference between don Juan's style and the Zen style is that Zen at least is honest in stating that extraordinary abilities are a trap. However, dJ DID allude to that when he mentioned the four enemies of a warrior, one of those being "power".
Of interest, if one scans the complete works of Castaneda for the word "trick", the number of hits rather boggles the mind. Isn't that some sort of a hint?
In a way, I believe getting caught up in the "magic" is essentially a distraction. It's far more interesting to have lucid dreams than to engage in painful recapitulation. It's far more interesting to engage in psychic phenomena than to deal with isolating the source of reflexive behavior.
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Per Syd was a member here a few years ago and has come unexpectedly back and has made some let's say 'interesting posts.' I believe she writes from a place of knowledge and sees certain things but she is acting as a individual and not in cahoots with me (to use a word suiting your reference to 'cons'). I would also say that in my interpretation of what she presents is that some of it does address 'arriving at one's totality.' I agree with your beginning premise and keeping it simple but the gist of what your saying in reference to the beginning statement left me wondering your intent. All have their own beliefs and opinions here but when you throw my name out there you should expect some response. Whether or not there is or is not a warrior party is actually none of your business and such outbursts appear out of place.
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My bad. One is left wondering, then, the purpose of her posts, which was my intent. ("cahoots" is a great word, btw...)
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Purpose is a good question and I'm sure most here have the same question in their minds. I believe she writes for certain people and they know who they are and she is writing as a form of education in art of sorcery and that is also gender specific. I do not believe her posts are for the general membership. She writes from a ap that she has used to access the nagual and from that comes some distortion but also some seeing thus to keep it simple: she's a seer. So being a seer, she feels she must put it out there for what she has seen.
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Gonzo I love your post. I also love steak and wine. Perhaps blending these two paths together is what is needed. How do we use this abstract knowledge of Nagualism with the concrete practices and knowledge of Zen? This is what I am interested in, this is what I am trying to do.
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I have seen a few of these forums as I imagine have you all. The way i see it is that even if this was a knitting forum it would be comprised of a knitting party. A party of knitters who for some inexplicable reason were drawn together and by no accident. Knitters talk about knitting and warriors talk about whatever you guys talk about about. I actually belong to another Forum but for the time being I cannot be a part of it. You have probably heard me talk about Theun Mares. Most of the time when I mention him here or in any other Forums the general response is usually that he has never been of interest. A response which has always confused me but only because I originally wanted to tell more people on the Warriors path about him. I had assumed that because Theuns writing was a natural progression for me after reading CC that this would be true for others too. The only reason that it was a natural progression for me is because in CC's books the teaching is second hand where as in Theuns books it is first hand. Volume after volume he covers all the concepts in a direct, no fuss approach. he is not as funny as Don Juan but has his moments.
I have for long time been trying to remember what my motives were for participating in this forum and right or wrong this is it! Know that deep down i'll always think that Theun is worth reading and so my angle can be out in the open when you talk to me.
On his high horse,
Lea.
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Don Juan has always taught that we should not be trapped in any one belief system as it is limiting. Any belief system is a means to an end, not the end result. DJ may have used tricks but as a controlled folly to shift CC's assembledge point to a place where he can return. To a place where he can reach the totality of himself, where he can rid himself of the flyer and live an impeccable life. One cannot get wrapped up in the abstract rules to the spirit. It was DJ's goal to jolt CC's AP as it needed a shift, as most of us do.
As to a warrior party, why would it be a bad thing for a group of people to align their intent to help connect with spirit.
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i believe the natural alignment and perfection of a warriors party conglomeration would ply intent towards a mutual goal , the use of freedom as a tool , given all members present different perspectives and energies toward the resolve. they would have to work together and with themselves to let go of self importance so they could actually hear their path of heart within to move fluidly .
actually i feel this combined intent when realised potentially would be phenomenal , as opposed to the gratification of some self absorbed guru . mutually.
I would enjoy to see that experiment take shape.
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The time decides which precise bundle of energy fields are to be used; out of an incalculable number.
"Handling the modality of the time- those select few energy fields-
takes all our available energy; and thus leaves us no extra energy that
would help us use any of the other energy fields."
He urged me with a subtle movement of his eyebrows to consider all this.
"This is what I mean," he went on, "when I say that the average man
lacks the energy needed to deal with sorcery. If he uses only the energy
he has, he can't perceive the worlds sorcerers do.
"To perceive sorcery worlds, sorcerers need to use a cluster of energy fields not ordinarily used.
"Naturally, if the average man is to perceive sorcery worlds and
understand sorcerers' perception, he must use the same energy cluster
sorcerers have used. And this is just not possible, because all of the
average man's energy is already deployed on the cluster of the times."
He paused as if searching for the appropriate words to make his point.
"Think of it this way," he proceeded. "It isn't that as time goes by
you're learning sorcery. Rather, what you're learning is to save energy.
This energy will enable you to handle some of the energy fields which
are inaccessible to you now.
"Sorcery, properly speaking, is simply the ability to use energy
fields that are not employed in perceiving the ordinary world we know.
Sorcery is a state of awareness and the ability to perceive something
which ordinary perception cannot.
"Everything I've put you through," don Juan went on, "and each of the
things I've shown you was only a device to convince you that there's
more to us than meets the eye.
We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery because there is really
nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is
incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox!
"Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or
another, that he (or she) is learning sorcery. However, all he's really
doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his
being, and that he can reach it."
"Is that what you're doing, don Juan- convincing me?"
"Exactly. I'm trying to convince you that you can reach that power.
"I went through the same thing, and I was as hard to convince as you are."
"Once we have reached it," I asked, "what exactly do we do with it, don Juan?"
"Nothing. Once we have reached that understanding, it will by itself
make use of energy fields which are available to us but were
inaccessible.
"Access to formerly unavailable energy fields, as I have said, is sorcery in a nut shell.
"But then we begin to 'see', that is, to perceive something else; not
as imagination, but as real and concrete. And then we begin to know
without having to use words. And what any of us does with that increased
perception and with that silent knowledge depends on our own
temperament."
-
"The Power Of Silence" - \Carlos Castaneda
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Description
English: Indian and Himalayan Art
Aspects of Violence (Himsa) Page from a manuscript of the Sangrahanisutra Made in Gujarat, India or Rajasthan, India
1663-64
Artist/maker unknown, India
Opaque watercolor on paper 4 3/8 x 10 inches (11.1 x 25.4 cm)
Currently not on view
1935-34-11(51,a) Purchased with the Francis T. S. Darley Fund, 1935
Label
According to the philosophy of the Jain religion, animals that are
violent to one another are reborn in hell as surely as men who practice
cruelty. Each hell has a matching image. The upper left is the first
hell for "unreasoning tigers," and the illustration shows a tiger
attacking a black buck antelope. The adjacent scenes show a domesticated
cheetah carrying a rodent, a bird of prey (perhaps a Eurasian sparrow
hawk) with a smaller bird in its beak, and a Gaja-Simha (mythical
elephant-lion) with its elephant prey. On the far left of the lower row,
a mongoose kills a snake. At the far right, a big fish eats a little
one, a scene described as "fish doing bloody deeds." Just to its left, a
man shoots rabbits, a scene described as "human beings doing bloody
deeds." The sixth hell (second from the left) shows a seated couple and
implies the violence of lovemaking.
Date
1663-64
Source
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/ ... mulR=17986https://en.wikipedia.org/...Violence_%28Himsa%29.jpg
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Description
English: Indian and Himalayan Art
Aspects of Violence (Himsa) Page from a manuscript of the Sangrahanisutra Made in Gujarat, India or Rajasthan, India
1663-64
Artist/maker unknown, India
Opaque watercolor on paper 4 3/8 x 10 inches (11.1 x 25.4 cm)
Currently not on view
1935-34-11(51,a) Purchased with the Francis T. S. Darley Fund, 1935
Label
According to the philosophy of the Jain religion, animals that are
violent to one another are reborn in hell as surely as men who practice
cruelty. Each hell has a matching image. The upper left is the first
hell for "unreasoning tigers," and the illustration shows a tiger
attacking a black buck antelope. The adjacent scenes show a domesticated
cheetah carrying a rodent, a bird of prey (perhaps a Eurasian sparrow
hawk) with a smaller bird in its beak, and a Gaja-Simha (mythical
elephant-lion) with its elephant prey. On the far left of the lower row,
a mongoose kills a snake. At the far right, a big fish eats a little
one, a scene described as "fish doing bloody deeds." Just to its left, a
man shoots rabbits, a scene described as "human beings doing bloody
deeds." The sixth hell (second from the left) shows a seated couple and
implies the violence of lovemaking.
Date
1663-64
Source
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/ ... mulR=17986https://en.wikipedia.org/...Violence_%28Himsa%29.jpg {PD-1923}
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just make sure the party doesnt turn into a suicide cult then its all good
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Description
English: Indian and Himalayan Art
Aspects of Violence (Himsa) Page from a manuscript of the Sangrahanisutra Made in Gujarat, India or Rajasthan, India
1663-64
Artist/maker unknown, India
Opaque watercolor on paper 4 3/8 x 10 inches (11.1 x 25.4 cm)
Currently not on view
1935-34-11(51,a) Purchased with the Francis T. S. Darley Fund, 1935
Label
According to the philosophy of the Jain religion, animals that are
violent to one another are reborn in hell as surely as men who practice
cruelty. Each hell has a matching image. The upper left is the first
hell for "unreasoning tigers," and the illustration shows a tiger
attacking a black buck antelope. The adjacent scenes show a domesticated
cheetah carrying a rodent, a bird of prey (perhaps a Eurasian sparrow
hawk) with a smaller bird in its beak, and a Gaja-Simha (mythical
elephant-lion) with its elephant prey. On the far left of the lower row,
a mongoose kills a snake. At the far right, a big fish eats a little
one, a scene described as "fish doing bloody deeds." Just to its left, a
man shoots rabbits, a scene described as "human beings doing bloody
deeds." The sixth hell (second from the left) shows a seated couple and
implies the violence of lovemaking.
Date
1663-64
Source
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/ ... mulR=17986https://en.wikipedia.org/...Violence_%28Himsa%29.jpg {PD-1923}
The Jains are intriguing, they have the highest literacy rate in India,
The literacy rate among Hindus (65.1%) was slightly
better than the national average (64.8%) for all religious groups
combined. Among Muslims the literacy rate is 59.1%, below the national
average. The highest literacy rate is recorded among the Jains (94.1%),
followed by Christians (80.3%), Buddhists (72.7%) and Sikhs (69.4%). “Press Information Bureau, Government of India”
and its said they have the oldest libraries in India
Jains have an ancient tradition of scholarship and have
the highest degree of literacy for a religious community in India. Jain
libraries are the oldest in the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
The Jains of western India have preserved hundreds of
thousands of handwritten manuscripts for many centuries in their
libraries or “knowledge warehouses” (jndn bhandar). These manuscripts
have been an invaluable aid in reconstructing much of the history of
Indian society, religion, philosophy, and art.
The Jain Knowledge Warehouses: Traditional Libraries in India …
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just make sure the party doesnt turn into a suicide cult then its all good
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just make sure the party doesnt turn into a suicide cult then its all good
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At a most basic understanding , the introduction of language appears in this moment to be a series of breath related flows given to harmonic ranges and melodies .
As the creation given , was as sound proceeded light ? cant remember ...... manufacturing of creative intent , sing along if its your thing .
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dreamgirl wrote:Gonzo I love your post. I also love steak and wine. Perhaps blending these two paths together is what is needed. How do we use this abstract knowledge of Nagualism with the concrete practices and knowledge of Zen? This is what I am interested in, this is what I am trying to do.
First, some caveats. I don't consider the basic teachings of don Juan to be abstract. By the basic teachings I refer to exercises aimed at increasing awareness of self and of one's relations with others and with the earth. In regard Zen, there are many different interpretations of Zen, from the rather mechanized ritualistic with uniforms, monasteries, lineages, and diplomas of a sort, to what I prefer to call Essential Zen which is more akin to the teachings of don Juan, in that the aim is the discovery of the true self.
It would be a bit of a task to point out the similarities. IMO, however, the essence of dJ's teachings is within the first four books, and the essence of the Zen I prefer may be found within the three volumes of "The Blue Cliff Record" translated by Thomas and JC Cleary.
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Littlepaw wrote:I have seen a few of these forums as I imagine have you all. The way i see it is that even if this was a knitting forum it would be comprised of a knitting party. A party of knitters who for some inexplicable reason were drawn together and by no accident. Knitters talk about knitting and warriors talk about whatever you guys talk about about. I actually belong to another Forum but for the time being I cannot be a part of it. You have probably heard me talk about Theun Mares. Most of the time when I mention him here or in any other Forums the general response is usually that he has never been of interest. A response which has always confused me but only because I originally wanted to tell more people on the Warriors path about him. I had assumed that because Theuns writing was a natural progression for me after reading CC that this would be true for others too. The only reason that it was a natural progression for me is because in CC's books the teaching is second hand where as in Theuns books it is first hand. Volume after volume he covers all the concepts in a direct, no fuss approach. he is not as funny as Don Juan but has his moments.
I have for long time been trying to remember what my motives were for participating in this forum and right or wrong this is it! Know that deep down i'll always think that Theun is worth reading and so my angle can be out in the open when you talk to me.
On his high horse,
Lea.Hi Ho Silver....Away!!!
Similar interests indeed, and there will be ranking, from the first time knitters, to the professional level, and folk all comparing their products to one another's, the usual cranks and so on. I guess the only difference is the product: knitting versus...what?
The "product" here, really is the self, the discovery of the true self, and perhaps for some, the exhilaration of just being that unique self, unfettered..
So, rather than compare our knitting to one another, we compare our "selves", with the inevitable ranking - "He is the most advanced..." "He is a noob..." etc...rather than Master Knitter, we have Nagual, and so on. But here's the difference, imo. With knitting, there is a tangible product all can see, feel, and evaluate: with selves, there IS nothing tangible, except perhaps words that get posted here, Tales of Power, tales of achievement, implications via arcane or esoteric essays, and so on...i.e., posturing, or posing. That's OK...some seems genuine, some not so much so...some aimed at being acknowledged or admired, some more genuinely helpful. In that regard, acting as a group, it functions well. When it comes, however, to forming a formal Nagual Party, there are two problems imo. First, is one of limitations. That is, the various roles for each of the members of the Party are defined, and therefore, limited. Second, I don't believe any group effort can accomplish anything for the self. That is, each bit of knitting is a unique piece and is the sole product of a single knitter. Likewise, an accomplished or achieved "self" is the sole product of a single being
"Each and every one must investigate on his own" from a Zen quip.
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