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serloco wrote:
sure i did.. anything can be made pure.. into darkness. it is equivalent to saying anything in the world may be stopped, suspended, altered, shifted, mastered. How do you think solomon got demons to build his temple?
Traditionally? I think he was supposed to have called them individually into a "Triangle of Art "protected on all three sides by Divine Names of God, and thus conjured, he bound them to service quite against their own wishes by the authority of the Most High God of Israel and so on and so on.
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Also if I remember this right he wore a ring with the Seal of Solomon, like the ACTUAL Seal of Solomon, THE Seal of Solomon, and somehow or other it completed the bindings so he had to be VERY careful to not let the Demons damage the Seal and free themselves from Solomon's spell.
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Its actually a pentalpha.
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The power itself is not the seal, its the value of the seal. The knowledge within it, the understanding of it.
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serloco wrote:
The power itself is not the seal, its the value of the seal. The knowledge within it, the understanding of it.
It was inscribed with the Name of God. That is how it was supposed to have worked. It's as simple as that. The Names of God bind demons.
The demons go in a Triangle, and the Magician stays in the Circle, but both are "protected" by the Names of God or Archangels, etc.
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Seals are given linked to awareness. A clueless man would never be able to wear/use such a ring. It represents knowledge of and experience gained by the wearer - at least that is how it is in the shamanic tradition. Power objects like that are visual/material representations of the spiritual state the wearer has. He does not 'need' the ring itself, he needs the state/awareness that was gained that linked to having the object as a consequence/representation of it.
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watergaze wrote:Seals are given linked to awareness. A clueless man would never be able to wear/use such a ring. It represents experience and knowledge gained of the wearer - at least that is how it is in the shamanic tradition. Power objects like that are visual/material representations of the spiritual state the wearer has. He does not 'need' the ring itself, he needs the state/awareness that was gained that linked to having the object as a consequence/representation of it.I think that's true. You can't just superimpose the shamanic tradition on grimoire style demonology obviously, but the ring isn't important, the Name of God. But in context, making a ring like that, inscribing it with the Name of God, it's not a trivial thing to do. The ring itself, the physical, finger-shaped metal hole, is ALSO a powerful object.
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To say it differently... it's not something anyone NEEDS, but it's something it would be unwise to be careless with, and definitely not something you'd want to lose.
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Also fwiw he was KING Solomon, he wasn't also blacksmith Solomon and goldsmith Solomon and jeweler Solomon, so take your best who made that ring and where its power really came from.
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Le_Regard wrote:But in context, making a ring like that, inscribing it with the Name of God, it's not a trivial thing to do. The ring itself, the physical, finger-shaped metal hole, is ALSO a powerful object.
Yes, making power objects is never trivial. But that does not cancel out what I was expressing above.
Le_Regard wrote:Also fwiw he was KING Solomon, he wasn't also blacksmith Solomon and goldsmith Solomon and jeweler Solomon, so take your best who made that ring and where its power really came from.
There is no way to know - unless it is written or whatever - how the ring was made and such. I am not a seamstress but can make myself something from linen or whatever if I needed to, I am not a jeweler, but I can put a stone into a wire and hang a hook on it to have an earring, I am not a mason but I can make my own rune stones. etc. And sometimes one actually find objects out there that one has not made. It doesnt mean they are less powerful. Not to mention one can dream objects into being, or be shown which object is the one (ideal representation and then one doesn't need to create it on one's own).
I also know people who had a normal occupation - e.g. a lawyer - who went and started blacksmithing and whatnot. I am sure a king would be able to make his own ring - given he should have enough money and places where to learn and practice and do it and even people who could teach him. Much easier for Solomon to make a ring than for me - and I kid you not - I'd manage to do it if I put my mind to it.
(ofc here I just talk of making a ring or another power object, like I said above the awareness is the first step, the object is what follows later)
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watergaze wrote:Le_Regard wrote:But in context, making a ring like that, inscribing it with the Name of God, it's not a trivial thing to do. The ring itself, the physical, finger-shaped metal hole, is ALSO a powerful object.
Yes, making power objects is never trivial. But that does not cancel out what I was expressing above.
Le_Regard wrote:Also fwiw he was KING Solomon, he wasn't also blacksmith Solomon and goldsmith Solomon and jeweler Solomon, so take your best who made that ring and where its power really came from.
There is no way to know - unless it is written or whatever - how the ring was made and such. I am not a seamstress but can make myself something from linen or whatever if I needed to, I am not a jeweler, but I can put a stone into a wire and hang a hook on it to have an earring, I am not a mason but I can make my own rune stones. etc. And sometimes one actually find objects out there that one has not made. It doesnt mean they are less powerful. Not to mention one can dream objects into being, or be shown which object is the one (ideal representation and then one doesn't need to create it on one's own).
I also know people who had a normal occupation - e.g. a lawyer - who went and started blacksmithing and whatnot. I am sure a king would be able to make his own ring - given he should have enough money and places where to learn and practice and do it and even people who could teach him. Much easier for Solomon to make a ring than for me - and I kid you not - I'd manage to do it if I put my mind to it.
(ofc here I just talk of making a ring or another power object, like I said above the awareness is the first step, the object is what follows later)
I'm sorry, but why would a king make his own rings? The government has to create jobs somehow, doesn't it?
Solomonic magic is probably not for you. 
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hehe Le  . There are very good reasons why one would want to be the only one creating / handling /witnessing their own power object.
But yes, Solomon stuff is not for me. I just pitched in for the general way of what I understand / experienced that links to power objects . So that you can get over that bump faster and get back to the interesting stuff about shadows and demons. But I guess that is not gonna happen any more...
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watergaze wrote:hehe Le . There are very good reasons why one would want to be the only one creating / handling /witnessing their own power object.
I would totally agree with that in probably most cases, but the King Solomon story totally revolves around this great big public temple he built.
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Le_Regard wrote:watergaze wrote:hehe Le . There are very good reasons why one would want to be the only one creating / handling /witnessing their own power object.
I would totally agree with that in probably most cases, but the King Solomon story totally revolves around this great big public temple he built.
Most people see this as like a metaphor for like... community building. But that's not exactly right. It was a real temple made of gold and the "cedars of Lebanon" and all of that.
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we were talking about a ring (that subdued the demons who then build the temple)... I doubt that the temple was Solomon's personal power object in the sense that personal power objects are understood.
Not to say that it didn't have power ofc.
Le_R wrote:Also if I remember this right he wore a ring with the Seal of Solomon, like the ACTUAL Seal of Solomon, THE Seal of Solomon, and somehow or other it completed the bindings so he had to be VERY careful to not let the Demons damage the Seal and free themselves from Solomon's spell.
I thought it would be a pity to end the discussion due to different notions of how the ring was the most important part to subduing the spirits .
I do not know much about temples though, so in that I cannot help... What was the temple for? How is it linked to harvesting power?
I find these old tales fascinating to look at though, especially if someone knowledgeable can make parallels to stuff I know more about
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watergaze wrote:I thought it would be a pity to end the discussion due to different notions of how the ring was the most important part to subduing the spirits .
I do not know much about temples though, so in that I cannot help... What was the temple for? How is it linked to harvesting power?
I find these old tales fascinating to look at though, especially if someone knowledgeable can make parallels to stuff I know more about
What was it FOR? I don't really know how to answer that. As far as I can tell, it is just the nature of people to eventually form communities, and it is the nature of communities to eventually build temples.
I don't really know how an ANCIENT temple would have harvested power, I can only guess, but the whole thing looks like more or less a MACHINE for harvesting power. Animal sacrifices aren't just facts, right? You don't just buy them off the shelf, some poor shepherds had to deal with all of this.
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Uuuuuugggggh ok so IN THE BIBLE, you may notice a sharp contrast between these early wandering goat herder Hebrews who were living in Egypt's shadow, and then suddenly they have their own country and their own temple, and it's like, this really really big deal for them.
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hehe, sure is. Just look at all the bruhaha around Jerusalem today...
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watergaze wrote:hehe, sure is. Just look at all the bruhaha around Jerusalem today...Yes, it was so powerful it STILL a really big deal. The place where the temple was is a mosque now and that drives them all crazy.
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Seriously, watch how they deal with it. If "neo/core-shamanism" is still around for a while you might have to own real estate eventually.
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real estate is useful 
(there is no ban on owning real estate in neo/core-shamanism btw - that I am aware of  )
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watergaze wrote:real estate is useful
(there is no ban on owning real estate in neo/core-shamanism btw - that I am aware of )I have met some, certainly not all, neo-shamans, and my impression is that most of them are anarchists who if offered real estate would make up some excuse for why they don't it
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This is real talk, at some point every underground movement has to DECIDE to stay underground. On purpose.
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seems like you have been bumping against some weird crowds. Sorry to hear that. I never met any like that...
The further I walk the more it seems to me we meet what we attract. I mean, maybe this is something that somehow links to stuff you have to deal with / process etc. I have been going to seminars done by the shamanic foundation (Foundation for Shamanic Studies) for over a decade (on and off) and to other gatherings that I found thnx to that and never came across this idea that you mentioned about owning real estate . As in that it is a bad thing to own real estate or some such.
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