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quantumshaman wrote:
It's obviously a touchy subject, but my point here was that the original poster who asked "why do you charge" just seemed to be intentionally trying to stir up a can of worms - and, of course, that is the result. Why? Because we all agreed to play the game. I'm done. It's an old, pointless argument, stirred to life out of boredom, no doubt.
Agreed. I'm out as well. Smells like fur flyin'!
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sikimiwa wrote:
I am beginning to understand why there are closed parts to this forum. This is a quiet horror.
Please don't do yourself the dishonor of pretending innocence. You started it. And you did it quite Intentionally. That much is obvious.
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Gonzo wrote:
@sikimiway -
Keep pushing. I've often thought a spiritual teacher truly showed his mettle by charging nothing for his efforts.
What you think has little to do with reality. I've often thought aliens run Microsoft, but that don't make it so.
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songbird wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
It's obviously a touchy subject, but my point here was that the original poster who asked "why do you charge" just seemed to be intentionally trying to stir up a can of worms - and, of course, that is the result. Why? Because we all agreed to play the game. I'm done. It's an old, pointless argument, stirred to life out of boredom, no doubt.
Agreed. I'm out as well. Smells like fur flyin'!
Rat fur.
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Ok, as promised, a link to any interested and how to apply for admittance. Closed means closed to public internet access only (not inactive).
http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/3627/Re-R ... 868YcUU9n4
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Quantum
I disagree with you again, this has been a good discussion, clarifying and questioning charging for service and teaching.
It might be same ol' same ol' for you, but I learned and saw something new in it.
Thank you for taking part!
Same goes to Songbird.
I wonder what it is you smell, your own fried selfimportance? If so run to you rat holes and hide.
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MORNINGS SON
do you see
this
goes nowhere?
the template is strong. so strong it controls its world view???
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I agree Sikimiwa
'the template is strong. so strong it controls its world view'
maybe one day the legs will charge the body for walking it around.
There is a call (or rather a whisper in the wind) for breaking this money ruled patterns of being in the world
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Mornings Son wrote:
There is a call (or rather a whisper in the wind) for breaking this money ruled patterns of being in the world
This is true. And it's interesting to see how different people perceive and behave regarding these monetary patterns. Personally, I was stuck in negative money pattern and was sending messages to the Universe that reflected that. So it was a task of mine to change -- reverse that and make having money okay and asking for and receiving money for any job I do an ok thing as well. So, like with everything, so much depends on perspective and perception.
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Oi Songbird!
The Earth support us, to bad we been conditioned to believe in jobs and money, rather then having faith in Earth and Spirit
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quantumshaman wrote  ikimiwa wrote:
I am beginning to understand why there are closed parts to this forum. This is a quiet horror.
Please don't do yourself the dishonor of pretending innocence. You started it. And you did it quite Intentionally. That much is obvious.
You refuse to read my posts, again, and again. That is also your choice. If you wanna play the dishonor game, i dont suggest it. Your injections in this discussion started out as stand-offish, as IF there were sides? lol
How can you possibly guess my intent? Again, i think, you over estimate yourself.
""It's unfortunate that you are reduced to equating "sincerity" with
spirituality. Even the most sincere person on the planet has to eat.
So... we live in a different world than the "ancients". Somebody
recently told me, "Truth is in the air, so it should be free!" Tell it
to Verizon and Sprint and T-Mobile.""
We all eat. It is true. Spirit will always feed you. (that doesnt mean you should tax it). We are what we eat, in some cases, what we ate yesterday. What do you capitalist beliefs taste like?
The world is still ancient, and it will always be ancient.
You chose to have a nice car to make payments on. You choose to have your T mobile and Verizon. You chose to feel like you need to be "compensated" for your hard, hard work you claim is in the work of Spirit. You chose your modern world and think Wakan Tanka is customized to fit your needs - but its the other way around. Wakan Tanka doesnt care about our superficial needs, or emotions. That is for us to deal with, Wakan Tanka can show us how to deal with them, (and so on.) The boss doesn't ask for money. People that SINCERELY do its work dont ask for money, because they understand. There is all the money in the world, but you only need a certain amount to get by. There are many jobs. These are what they are there for, a job, to pay for all your ****. Not Spirit. Spirit is not a business. I am very interested in how you are not able to understand this. I would absolutely love to meet you all in person. Infact Quantum Shaman, I believe we are only several hours apart. Ya at ehh from the Navajo Nation - where verizon and t moblile STOP WORKING!
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sikimiwa wrote:
How can you possibly guess my intent?
No need to guess. It was obvious from your first post.
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quantumshaman wrote ikimiwa wrote:
How can you possibly guess my intent?
No need to guess. It was obvious from your first post.kicking a dead horse. why not.
can you explain to me what my intent is/was? what do you think? lots, and lots of details, if you can, pleaase!
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sikimiwa wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
sikimiwa wrote:
How can you possibly guess my intent?
No need to guess. It was obvious from your first post.kicking a dead horse. why not.
can you explain to me what my intent is/was? what do you think? lots, and lots of details, if you can, pleaase!
I've already made it clear. And I won't be drawn into any more of your "loaded questions". I played the game for awhile because it was my controlled folly. Now I have better things to do.
But on the off chance remotely unlikely extremely doubtful possibility that you really DON'T understand, here it is in simple language. Your initial inquiry to Songbird was the equivalent of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" It is put forth under a pretense of "innocence", but is really only warfare concealed. If you don't know that, you must be extremely young or extremely naive. I don't "read" that you are either, thus my annoyance with your initial question. It wasn't a question, but an accusation. Get it?
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why is it that you two clench up so much when i ask for details, lol.
however - i am able to understand your opinion of me. (despite my age, i didnt know that we were factoring this in) If i am as silly as you think, then your perspective would be very good. Ive made blatant warefare with you, but as far as my questions, (which also, would be nice if you could answer because im interested in both of your line of work-) i can promise had no malice. re read them, and try not to take them "personally". that could be a difficult task, because i dont think you want to look at them in any other way.
but really lady, youve got the wrong idea, i guarantee it.
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sikimiwa wrote:
why is it that you two clench up so much when i ask for details, lol.
however - i am able to understand your opinion of me. (despite my age, i didnt know that we were factoring this in) If i am as silly as you think, then your perspective would be very good. Ive made blatant warefare with you, but as far as my questions, (which also, would be nice if you could answer because im interested in both of your line of work-) i can promise had no malice. re read them, and try not to take them "personally". that could be a difficult task, because i dont think you want to look at them in any other way.
but really lady, youve got the wrong idea, i guarantee it.
You admit you've made blatant warfare with me, yet tell me I have the wrong idea about you. Somehow, the two don't go together. And why "warfare"? Isn't that a bit silly? We disagree. So what? You want warfare, go sign up for the army.
You started this with your INTENTIONALLY loaded question. When you can take responsibility for that, maybe the conversation can progress. Until then, I have no further interest in this game of yours. Sorry sorry, love me love me. No hard feelings. I just think you are totally avoiding responsibility for your own part in this.
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what the hell are you doing.. as you are arguing here, the ravens are taking more and more control of you !
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QS you come through to me as a stuck person. >Sigh<
I hoped the rumors about you where not true, but alas it does seem so.
Anyway I believe you don't care about my opinion, nor would for a sec would reflect inwards to see if there is any truth in what I write or other say to you.
Oh Wise One...
tell me where I am wrong? (for free)
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QS, let me break some **** down for you (again, and again, and again)
"You admit you've made blatant warfare with me, yet tell me I have the wrong idea about you."
This discussion is what i would consider a form of warfare, infact, your accusation of me; starting or planting "warefare" (you really said it, go look) , makes you on the defense. you put yourself in a position of war. I am taking responsibility by holding my end. thats just how it works. if you disagree- ENLIGHTEN ME ABOUT MY RESPONSIBILITIES! because im sure i know my own.
about the wrong idea.
you think i intentionally started a dispute. i wont lie, this is a nice touch. its all very interesting. but my questions (again, and again and again) i can assure you, are competent, and good questions. infact, i think that it would even help songbirds business if she could answer them, but i think they are either too sophisticated or have no right to call yourselves naguals. theres a really raw area in this and it doesnt like to be touched. (i find you to be hypocritical actually, after combing your website and videos, and looking at all your posts on this forum. i could type out all the contradictions to you, in a private message if you are interested. i am always eager for this myself, and i would like it if you could share some insights on me from you)
the confusion is in the details, you made this conversation aggressive, and im not the type to roll over, and yet...my questions still stand. it was not, (again, and again and again) planing on causing this. my questions are innocent. i can assure you with my word, because, yes in fact, i am responsible for my words. sadly i will not be able to maintain and internet connection long enough to see where this goes, but it will probably be buried wih everything else, and youll continue maintaining your world view.in fact at this point i have probably said to much. it seems to me the only person on this thread involved that has successfully been initiated, is Mornings Son.(i congratulate you, happy late birthday) They see the details, and i wouldnt be surprised if it figured out my intention of doing this, because its opinions seem to not come from itself.
"I have no further interest in this game of yours. Sorry sorry, love me love me. No hard feelings. I just think you are totally avoiding responsibility for your own part in this."
look at all that defense in there. im sure you dont have the interest. you never did, but you have a **** load of self interest. this conversation will only progress when it does the direction you think it should be going in, which is a pity, Mornings Son has a good point, you wont budge.
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My my. Good topic. As it began, it was a question whether one ought to charge money for "spiritual" services. I thought songbird clarified well the differentiation between "spiritual" services and assistance for specific disciplines. There seems to me to be a valid differentiation there.
The area of interest was the primary topic of discussion in my chat today, and was most interesting. That topic was, was it legit or moral or right to charge for "spiritual teaching"? First, we had to define "spiritual teaching". Generally, that came down to providing anecdotal information. For example, Julian taking don Juan on as an apprentice, as well as all the other stories of the Naguals and their apprentices in CC's books. I added examples from the ranks of the Zen masters, abbots in monasteries guiding monks. None of the above asked for, nor receive payment of any kind for their services.
To add some fuel to the fire, I suggested that if a person purports to be a "spiritual teacher", then he is living a "spiritual life"...that is, one in which there is a direct connection to spirit...and if so, that person no longer has concern about the mundane issues of rent, clothing, food, shelter, etc...as in the lilies of the field...and therefore, no need whatsoever to share his understandings, ala Nisargadatta, UG Krishnamurti, et al. In other words, the proof of the pudding is in the pouring. If you are a true spiritual teacher, if you live with spirit, in accord with spirit, there is no need whatsover to request payment from any seeker approaching you for guidance.
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Mornings Son wrote:
QS you come through to me as a stuck person. >Sigh<
I hoped the rumors about you where not true, but alas it does seem so.
Anyway I believe you don't care about my opinion, nor would for a sec would reflect inwards to see if there is any truth in what I write or other say to you.
Oh Wise One...
tell me where I am wrong? (for free)Why are you being so facetious? And why are you listening to rumors? Chat room addictions can be dangerous things, you know.
If you want to know me, I'm right here. If you don't want to know me, that's okay, too. No charge either way.
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sikimiwa wrote:
QS, let me break some **** down for you (again, and again, and again)
"You admit you've made blatant warfare with me, yet tell me I have the wrong idea about you."
This discussion is what i would consider a form of warfare, infact, your accusation of me; starting or planting "warefare" (you really said it, go look) , makes you on the defense. you put yourself in a position of war. I am taking responsibility by holding my end. thats just how it works. if you disagree- ENLIGHTEN ME ABOUT MY RESPONSIBILITIES! because im sure i know my own.
about the wrong idea.
you think i intentionally started a dispute. i wont lie, this is a nice touch. its all very interesting. but my questions (again, and again and again) i can assure you, are competent, and good questions. infact, i think that it would even help songbirds business if she could answer them, but i think they are either too sophisticated or have no right to call yourselves naguals. theres a really raw area in this and it doesnt like to be touched. (i find you to be hypocritical actually, after combing your website and videos, and looking at all your posts on this forum. i could type out all the contradictions to you, in a private message if you are interested. i am always eager for this myself, and i would like it if you could share some insights on me from you)
the confusion is in the details, you made this conversation aggressive, and im not the type to roll over, and yet...my questions still stand. it was not, (again, and again and again) planing on causing this. my questions are innocent. i can assure you with my word, because, yes in fact, i am responsible for my words. sadly i will not be able to maintain and internet connection long enough to see where this goes, but it will probably be buried wih everything else, and youll continue maintaining your world view.in fact at this point i have probably said to much. it seems to me the only person on this thread involved that has successfully been initiated, is Mornings Son.(i congratulate you, happy late birthday) They see the details, and i wouldnt be surprised if it figured out my intention of doing this, because its opinions seem to not come from itself.
"I have no further interest in this game of yours. Sorry sorry, love me love me. No hard feelings. I just think you are totally avoiding responsibility for your own part in this."
look at all that defense in there. im sure you dont have the interest. you never did, but you have a **** load of self interest. this conversation will only progress when it does the direction you think it should be going in, which is a pity, Mornings Son has a good point, you wont budge.
You. Started. It.
You. Know. It.
Period.
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Hello All,
Took me half an hour to read this thread so I thought I would throw in my thoughts. Sikimiwa correct me if i am wrong but it looks to me as though you think that Songbird should NOT be charging for her services. If you were really open to the idea you would have noticed that Songbird basically said she charges what she thinks is fair considering her efforts (correct me if I am wrong Songbird) I think the only reason this whole thing bothers you is because you are a sinscear seeker who does have questions. my advice would be to have a more in depth talk with Songbird about her dreaming course, why not eh?
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Quantum
- you are here I See you just fine ))
Listing to rumors is not the same as accepting them, personal experience is the way!
Why am I facetious? Yeah why do you think?
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Little Paw,
I appreciate you took the time to read through the posts.
I understand that Songbird gave me a bare bones answer. It provided nothing. I asked some considerably deep questions, and they struck a nerve in her, as well as quantum shaman, because coincidentally, she charges too.( interesting connection)
Let me clarify to you Littlepaw, that i dont think songbird should do anything reguarding her "business". Thats her karma, not mine. After my questions were unable to be answered I began to dispute not charging over charging, hoping it may provoke some answers. as you can see, that didnt work either. In this case there is a concrete right and wrong, but it is narrowed down to the principle. reguarding QS and songbird, no, its probably not wrong, because they are learning something really valuable from this, provided they will be able to see it when it comes.
Maybe she and QS will see someday, most likely- they wont, and never will consider my questions (or where they are coming from), which is again a pity. QS will keep grabbing copied wisdom out of books and bend it to fit her like a slipper, Songbird is chosing to just lurk and read, because she has the nature of a coward, or considers herself "better" than this. Perhaps, even seeing me as unworthy. Ive offered to chat with her privately to which i get no response. And here i sit, typing sick with Vanity. Im afraid the only way i would be able to continue working on this thread is through private message.
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