Dreaming and Turiya

[Turin Otzaki]

On further examination of my resistance to dreaming Id like to put this to you for discussion.
The dreams were strong last night. So much emphasis on dreaming among you all, and I find I'm not interested. Beyond dreamless sleep
is what I am after, the realm beyond dreaming, above the astral into
turiya of the Upanishads that I have read about. Maybe I'm trying to jump the gun and first
have to learn the art of lucid dreaming....perhaps not. One of the key aspects
of lucid dreaming in Buddhism and Vedanta is that is awakens us to the
knowledge of the transitory dream like state of our day to day
existence, in lucid dreaming we are able to play about with reality
within the dream and gain a firmer hold of who and what we are as
consciousness behind events, not subject to events. They say that when
the dualistic mind has dissolved, then sleep goes into a state of
turiya, to use the Vedanta term for sleep beyond dreamless sleep.



I thought Castaneda's book TAOD was nonsense, I felt the distinct change
in energy in it from his previous books. I felt no magnetic resonance
from inside and felt an absence of power there. Its a resonance I have learned to follow and has proved
reliable for me. I had the same response to tensegrity, and so I
disregarded these aspects of what he put forward, focusing instead on
the core teachings he received from Don Juan Matus. And then I arrive at
this forum where the majority are very busy learning how to dream,
Castaneda style and also with tensegrity some of them. I have no doubt
that for me these activities are not for me, and I'm wondering if what
they are doing is following a bit of a red herring, and following their
curiosity into a realm fascinating to the mind and creating another
attachment, a distraction to the real work.



I feel enormous gratitude to Castaneda for the work he did, and his
heroic willingness to go the whole way with Don Juan Matus. However I
his own attempts to free himself I regard as ultimately a failure. It
could very well be the case that DJM knew this would be the outcome, but
knew that this was his man for passing the Teachings on. It may also
have been one of DJMs own final tests of impeccability though the
discipline of dealing with an imbecile. It may even have been his way of
ensuring that the teaching gets passed on AND that we don't get to set
CC up as as followers of a guru, and rather instead to find our own
power and be our own leaders.



My understanding is that while lucid dreaming is useful for learning to
move the assemblage point, it is a transitory intermediate state beyond
which lies dreamless sleep and beyond that turiya, pure consciousness.



Here's a quote by a guy who interviewed various Tibetan
Buddhist and Bon lamas and about their views on lucid dreaming and
concludes :



"Overall, the experience of interviewing such masters of Tibetan
Buddhism and Bonpo was extremely informative, both about the topic at
hand as well as the anthropological difficulties of discussing
mysticism with less than forthcoming lamas. As for lucid dreaming, it
is clear that the slight understanding some westerners have about lucid
dreaming is at best superficial. According to the Tibetans, conscious
control of dreams is less than half of the picture. Beyond conscious
control over dreams, there is awareness in deep sleep, and awareness
through the dream stage without actual dreaming". 



http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/tibetan-m ... ng-104824/



Came across this while looking into it written by an experienced practitioner, Alex Sumner.



"I also came close to wrecking my health – which is when I discovered
that it is possible to do too much lucid dreaming. As a result,
nowadays I have cut-down on my lucid dreaming. Whereas when I was
starting out I was practising literally every night, nowadays I only
attempt to dream lucidly on two or three nights every month. I have
found that this is usually quite adequate for all the lucid dreaming
which I need to do. I have actually spoken out in public forums, saying
that too much lucid dreaming can be bad for you, although I was not
received particularly well, as most people in those forums wanted to
hear about all the benefits of lucid dreaming, and closed their minds
to someone alerting them to the possible dangers".



So I wonder, bad for your health!! I would be shot down in flames for
even suggesting to doubt this most important aspect of the Castanedian
path, mmm going to post it anyway.



Another view from Ron Guizman

[http://www.rioguzman.blogspot.com/]

The "dreaming" experience mentioned before was indeed a new
experience for me, and it opened doors that I didn't know existed; it
gave me a new perspective. It took place for the first time a few years
ago. But since then I have come to understand that "dreaming," or any
other psychic powers that we may develop, are irrelevant and even
hindering at times. I have come to understand that there is nothing to
accomplish, nothing to become; everything is here in front of us, now!
This dream is for us to enjoy, and the 'path' to inner knowledge seems
to be a difficult winding road because of the ego. To follow that
'path' has been compared by ancient sages to walking the edge of a
razor because of our pernicious habit of self-reflection, which clouds
our vision and turns our dream into a nightmare, or into sheer hell...
In fact, the path and the goal are both here, now! But let me start
from the beginning...



So, my thoughts are that focusing on dreaming too much can become a
distraction from abiding in a state of pure silent awareness of no mind
which is accessible right now. No aims, no direction, nothing to
'achieve', just the simplicity of discipline and awareness.  "Nowhere to
go, nothing to do" as the old Zen saying goes.

[Guest]

Seems like this is my answer for everything lately, but there are definite differences for sorcerers and non.   For a sorcerer, dreaming is necessary.  Then again, there may be something else....
Here's a good quote: (found at dreamways)
"Dreaming , of course, is the crown of the sorcerers' efforts, the ultimate use of the
nagual." --Don Juan Matus

[Nu Lang]

"It may also have been one of DJMs own final tests of impeccability though the discipline of dealing with an imbecile."



Why do so many people call CC an imbecile? None of us here I don't think could have produced the work he did (his books). They are amazing. You think thats the work of an imbecile? I do understand you didn't resonate the TAOD, so okay, excluding that and Tensegrity...what a man he was. His biggest critics it seems are warriors themselves who have benefited from his publications. He purposely did not set himself up as a super nagual, he purposely exposed his short comings. What you call an imbecile is his own depiction of himself to readers, in honesty.



On that turiya, pure consciousness realm..so you arrive there and then what happens? What do you do there for all of eternity, lol? I'm serious though.

[Jessicar.parallelperception]

Turin,

Such a thoughtful, heartfelt post!  On many levels, I resonate with what you say here.  And--for what it's worth--from my perspective, I could exchange the word "dreaming" for "power plants" and the same conclusions could apply.  I absolutely loved my dreaming years and wouldn't trade them for anything.  I also loved my power plant years and wouldn't trade them either.  For me, what is important is the "recipe" that works--the ingredients that create for you the world you want.  There is so much out there that is information and not necessarily knowledge--so we pick and choose, some methodically, some randomly, some "by the book", some by the spirit of the law and some by the letter of the law.  For me (although it wasn't the case early on) what works, whether dreaming or not dreaming, is a personal prescription for a very unique and individual journey.  Earlier on, I followed other's prescriptions for development--and this isn't wrong or right, it's simply the route I took to get me where I'm at.  The mystery about the whole journey is the juxtaposition of the tonal and the nagual, their seeming polarities, and their sameness in the end. 


Earlier on, I practiced lots of dreaming, lucid, conscious, AP shifting  dreaming.  In the past few years, that has lessened.  Initially, I thought I'd "lost" my dreaming.  I didn't realize that there was 'something' on the other side of nighttime dreaming.  Any of the developmental "stages" of becoming a seer can become a resting point--this may be the case for nighttime dreaming also, just as we can get lost in the use of power plants, or amassing knowledge, or stalking.    


I have come to understand that there is nothing to accomplish, nothing to become; everything is here in front of us, now!

[lex icon]

On that turiya, pure consciousness realm..so you arrive there and then what happens? What do you do there for all of eternity, lol? I'm serious though. NL
It is really not through dream yoga so much as being able to cut or see through dualistic perceptions that one reaches that state, of being a Buddha, when one can send forth millions upon millions of emanations to benefit sentient beings in any way required. Buddhas are said to have the ability to send forth emanations, to make things appear in whatever way is needed.
http://www.dreamviews.com...d-dreaming-dying-104824/
NL when you say, "What do you do there for all of eternity" You imbue this with a certain "heavenly" aspect that religion so often does, which sounds so boring. There is no there! It just appears that way to samsaric vision. But Buddha nature, if what we read is true, is able to emanate to samsaric vision and nirvanic vision alike. This is different than darting past Eagles to live out a perceived existence in an energy body frought with its own set of problems, agendas personal and threats from others, fears, paranoias, energy enhancing situations, energy draining situations, ecstacies and disappointments. Also Buddha nature would be able to emanate to those energetic realms.
Now if we are to believe Dreamways, suspend judgment for a moment, the creature he knows as Don Juan in an energetic form, is struggling to get back into a body, "here" and he says words to the effect, that DJ wishes to continue teaching as some sort of super nagual merged with another nagual who is already present here as a person with a body. Buddhas would not have this "problem". They could choose to manifest here at will or to incarnate here as whatever at will.

[lex icon]

Turin,
I too am apprehensive about 2nd attention as was DJ. But I think from what you saying above you have a good approach to this. Your sobriety concerning dreaming, which stems from the fact there is much more beyond dreaming, should keep you in good stead, if you should choose to engage in dreaming. (I was in dreaming just the other day). I am a novice when it comes to dreaming but of the little I have experienced I would consider it beneficial. Gleaning from the Buddhist link you posted it is a good step to take.
Norbu further expands on the same point, writing, “The dream condition is unreal. When we discover this for ourselves within the dream, the immense power of this realization can eliminate obstacles related to conditioned vision. For this reason, dream practice is very important for liberating us from habits. We need this powerful assistance in particular because the emotional attachments, conditioning, and ego enhancement which compose our normal life have been strengthened over many, many years”.
On the "imbecile" take on CC... I see it the same way NL does. It was just a device that CC used. I can relate to it. I thought it brilliant. But then the British are partial to self deprecation.

[Guest]