Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Sedna, its said that stalking was not taught in normal awareness, it was taught in states of heightened awareness. Discussions on stalking rarely sheds light on the effective employment of stalking. Rather then a topic of discussion, really it is a practice. And I realize you are askign for examples of it in practice to see how its practiced according to whats put forth here. I'd say its in every interaction if you just observe, but I know you will not like that answer. But for me, stalking is everywhere all the time.
Because stalking involves control of behavior, and interpretation of behavior, the field of subjectivity comes into play. So any stalker can twist the events to suit his/her stalking so it seems there is no conclusive 'way' for everyone to see and agree on. Hence, another reason its better to not discuss stalking as a topic. Just do it.
I personally like to discuss it for clarity's sake, but see how that is actually incompatible. One has to have the energetic capacity to comprehend such stalking in the first place. If not then its like talking apples and oranges.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
It might be easier than you think...take one event where you stalked someone and describe it. You might be surprised how much others understand if you give the rest of us a chance.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
I'm stalking people all the time, that's my point.
For example, you said..."You might be surprised how much others understand if you give the rest of us a chance."
Rest of us..you are implying that I am lumping people into a category, you are also drawing attention to a concept that its "me" against a group and thus outnumbered in opinion. These are ploys on your part to give more credence to your words and take credence off of mine. Your arena is all those observing/reading this thread. So when I stalk you, I am simply aware of your maneuvers and can stay clear of it and respond outside the controls you seek to establish with me.
In truth there is no 'rest of us' besides what you put forth in your own intent. Every person who reads here will see according to their ability and that varies widely. So I have thus stayed out of the perimeters of your limitations set forth in 'the rest of us'. If not, I might have gotten angry at your assertions (and assertions from other posts you made here), retaliated and wasted valuable energy. By not seeking retaliation in my intent, that will undoubtedly impact you as well. My intent with you has been to impart clarity. Whether or not you receive it as such is not my concern, I only put forth the intent.
Ok, this will probably be the only time I grant you an example. Just because I don't think its so useful to talk so much about what needs to rather be done in action.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:
I'm stalking people all the time, that's my point.
For example, you said..."You might be surprised how much others understand if you give the rest of us a chance."
Rest of us..you are implying that I am lumping people into a category, you are also drawing attention to a concept that its "me" against a group and thus outnumbered in opinion. These are ploys on your part to give more credence to your words and take credence off of mine. Your arena is all those observing/reading this thread. So when I stalk you, I am simply aware of your maneuvers and can stay clear of it and respond outside the controls you seek to establish with me.
In truth there is no 'rest of us' besides what you put forth in your own intent. Every person who reads here will see according to their ability and that varies widely. So I have thus stayed out of the perimeters of your limitations set forth in 'the rest of us'. If not, I might have gotten angry at your assertions (and assertions from other posts you made here), retaliated and wasted valuable energy. By not seeking retaliation in my intent, that will undoubtedly impact you as well. My intent with you has been to impart clarity. Whether or not you receive it as such is not my concern, I only put forth the intent.
Ok, this will probably be the only time I grant you an example. Just because I don't think its so useful to talk so much about what needs to rather be done in action.
So what you are really doing, and just happen to be calling stalking, is applying meaning to other people's words and actions as though you know what is behind them (didn't CC warn about clarity as the enemy?). Such as, seeing tactics and assuming that one is employing those tactics on purpose to discredit you (is that what you really saw? NL, credit is given where credit is due, I am just reminding you that until you make your case it has no merit. I get that you are operating from a belief that I and others should just give what you say merit for no reason other than that you said it. But, unfortunately for you, I do not just believe everything I read. Since you are the one who is postulating that what you are doing is stalking then burden is on you to make the case that it is). It sounds to me like your view that I am trying to discredit you is born of some fear that what you are saying may not in fact be credible and projecting that fear onto me. But as your "stalking" includes no fact checking you would never know whether or not what you think you see is true. Indeed, it could be said that your seeing an effort against you is rooted in a general world view that people are standing against each other (rather than a world view that people are trying to understand each other). So, rather than me being against you, it is really you against me...for having choosen that world view that pits (in your mind) me against you. I think that your "stalking" could work if it ever leads you to the realization that you are making up what you are seeing in me and are in fact seeing something that isn't there. But your confidence in what you think you are seeing betrays you and shows quite clearly that your "stalking" is not working. Nor has what you have been doing helped me to understand this thing you are calling stalking which also demonstrates that what you are doing is not in fact working.
What you haven't done, and indeed are not doing, is listening to me and considering what I might be saying. If you were indeed in this to help others and were listening to me, then your efforts here would be engaged in helping me to understand this thing you call stalking. But rather, what you are doing is listening to your own internal voice and glorifying that by calling it stalking. What it is, if you care to look at it, is indulgence in your internal dialog and indulgence in judging which is ego and which serves only to draw a line in the sand between you and me which is indeed what you have done in believing that I am against you trying to discredit you. Worse, your choice of a world view that I am against you leads you to defensively not share what this stalking thing is and make it more difficult to understanding it. It makes me wonder what you are hiding. Again, on any level that you look at it, it doesn't appear to work.
Using the example you gave...what was your intended outcome? Helping me or protecting yourself? And, did you achieve that?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
PS...I get that, perhaps due to a fear that what you are doing may indeed have no merit that, it creates a wall of fog between you and you describing it. Fwiw, that wall of fog that you have that makes it hard for you (and apparently for the other stalkers) to describe it, does not exist in others...which is a curious feature of what is going on. Does it, this difficulty you have describing it, not make you wonder? One would think that describing a scene of stalking is no more difficult than describing the process one goes through making a cup of coffee...so why is it so hard for you? What, if not fear that you are wrong, is behind that difficulty? Seems to me that this difficulty is a subject worthy of stalking...do you agree?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
sorry to jump in here, but i see sedna makes a great case and is right to ask for examples, which none of us have given....
for me, this is a very simple example of stalking:
say i wake up in a mood. i have the power to become aware of that mood and then choose with awareness what i would like to be for that day, or i can sit back and say, oh world, have your way with me.... and feel bad for myself and give in to my mood. the first thing i do is intend to shift my mood. i would like to be happier, have more energy, feel good about being alive in my body. so first is my intent to "stalk" the mood of happiness. and then, i prop my intent by actions - what would i do if i were feeling happy, i ask myself? well, i'd smile, i'd wave to neighbors i pass on the street... i choose to wear something bright instead of something dark.... and before i know it, i am no longer acting happy. i am happy.
sedna asks for examples, and though im not sure that was directed at me, at least i can give an example of a practical way to begin using stalking as i define it. it is something anyone can do..... and in the realm of sorcery, when the range of perceptions you may use becomes greater and greater, your capacity for intending shifts becomes greater. i intend to become lucid, i intend to move into my dreaming body, i intend to shapeshift..... these sorts of things. we all have the inventory for something like "bad mood/good mood"... so we start there. stalking (fixating AP) necessitates dreaming (moving AP) ... and coherence (making sense of what you are observing) necessitates stalking. the two go hand in hand. the main reason i don't relate to this phrase of "stalking others" is because the person claiming that they are stalking is not shifting their AP. they are sitting with it in a rigid position and insisting others shift. ironically, maybe it does help the other person become more fluid in a really weird way, but it sure as hell doesn't help the "stalker" one bit, because it only makes them more rigid.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Moth and sedna, this is kind of what i was looking for in
Regard to stalking others. You both make great points.
I am beginning to feel that the word stalking, which in sorcery and toltec circles we all know
Well, has been adopted to fit a very human behaviour. Possibly in some
Circles it is accepted as a sorcery practise, though i have yet to see evidence of that.
As i was schooled in a muich different way and in another toltec circle
This doesnt fit for me and i feel unable to accept that observing others with an attempt
To manipulate their behaviour is stalking *except* in a very small percentage of cases with some already
Very powerful sorcerers, not as done by apprentices, such as we here are.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
mothsdream wrote:
the main reason i don't relate to this phrase of "stalking others" is because the person claiming that they are stalking is not shifting their AP. they are sitting with it in a rigid position and insisting others shift. ironically, maybe it does help the other person become more fluid in a really weird way, but it sure as hell doesn't help the "stalker" one bit, because it only makes them more rigid.
Which is exactly what I was seeing as well.
The way I see others change, however, is to deny or withdraw parts of themself for the sake of getting along...and in my view that is to become less alive.
That was a great example you gave btw...however, I wonder why not just call it intending happiness? If you say to another than when you wake up unhappy and want to be happy and intend happiness people get that instantly. Or even maybe creating happiness?
Part of the reason that so much of this path is unavailable to others is not, imo, because others lack the wherewithall, but because the terms make it needlessly confusing.
The one thing that people on this path have over others is the ability to sort of have a gap between them and what is happening and in that gap be able to choose what it is they'd like to do. Like how you explain with waking up one way and choosing another.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Enchantra wrote:
Nu Lang wrote:
What is the point in stalking others, that is what is the end result that we hope to achieve by this means?To help them see too.
Sorry to be a bug here, how does this work? Can you give me an example? Would it be like
"I see you are doing such and such, or that this really seems to bug you."
Or more like "When you do this, it really means you feel this way."
And you point these things out to them? IS there an agreement then on both parts, to take part in this? If not, how receptive is the other person to being stalked in this way?
Thats a very good question En. I would like a good honest, real life example how stalking another was useful in some way.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Interestingly, a lot of what is being discussed in regard to stalking others sounds a lot like the dictionary definition of stalking:
stalk 2 (stôk)v. stalked, stalk·ing, stalks
v.intr.1. To walk with a stiff, haughty, or angry gait: stalked off in a huff.
2. To move threateningly or menacingly.
3. To track prey or quarry.
v.tr.1. To pursue by tracking stealthily.
2. To follow or observe (a person) persistently, especially out of obsession or derangement.
3. To go through (an area) in pursuit of prey or quarry.
[Middle English stalken, from Old English -stealcian, to move stealthily (in bestealcian).]
stalker n.
The
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published
by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun1.
stalking - a hunt for game carried on by following it stealthily or waiting in ambushstill hunt[/url], stalk
hunting, hunt - the work of finding and killing or capturing animals for food or pelts
deerstalking - stalking deer
2.stalking - the act of following prey stealthilystalk
chase, pursual, pursuit, following - the act of pursuing in an effort to overtake or capture; "the culprit started to run and the cop took off in pursuit"
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Sedna wrote:
That was a great example you gave btw...however, I wonder why not just call it intending happiness? If you say to another than when you wake up unhappy and want to be happy and intend happiness people get that instantly. Or even maybe creating happiness?
you know, sed.... i don't know. maybe it wasn't such a great example in the first place.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
mothsdream wrote:
Sedna wrote:
That was a great example you gave btw...however, I wonder why not just call it intending happiness? If you say to another than when you wake up unhappy and want to be happy and intend happiness people get that instantly. Or even maybe creating happiness?
you know, sed.... i don't know. maybe it wasn't such a great example in the first place.
I thought it was a very good example - well done! It works.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
"NL, credit is given where credit is due, I am just reminding you that until you make your case it has no merit."
No merit for whom Sedna?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
"What it is, if you care to look at it, is indulgence in your internal dialog and indulgence in judging which is ego and which serves only to draw a line in the sand between you and me which is indeed what you have done in believing that I am against you trying to discredit you."
I don't believe you are against me, btw.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
mothsdream wrote: the main reason i don't relate to this phrase of "stalking others" is because the person claiming that they are stalking is not shifting their AP. they are sitting with it in a rigid position and insisting others shift.
I disagree, because from my own experiences it requires I too must shift constantly. In fact this is what DJ was telling Carlos is the reason stalking was develped was to deal with the world at large from a place in inner silence that is incompatible to such world...so to deal with others who are not 'like you' in how they think and react to situations.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Hive mentality is what one stalks to get out of and once out of it uses stalking to stay out of it.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:
mothsdream wrote:
the main reason i don't relate to this phrase of "stalking others" is because the person claiming that they are stalking is not shifting their AP. they are sitting with it in a rigid position and insisting others shift.
I disagree, because from my own experiences it requires I too must shift constantly. In fact this is what DJ was telling Carlos is the reason stalking was develped was to deal with the world at large from a place in inner silence that is incompatible to such world...so to deal with others who are not 'like you' in how they think and react to situations.
Give an example of this happening.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:
Hive mentality is what one stalks to get out of and once out of it uses stalking to stay out of it.Again, give an example of this happening.
The agreement that stalking others has any merit whatsoever IS a hive mentality. How is it that your continued practice is helping you to get out of it?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Sedna wrote:Nu Lang wrote:
mothsdream wrote:
the main reason i don't relate to this phrase of "stalking others" is because the person claiming that they are stalking is not shifting their AP. they are sitting with it in a rigid position and insisting others shift.
I disagree, because from my own experiences it requires I too must shift constantly. In fact this is what DJ was telling Carlos is the reason stalking was develped was to deal with the world at large from a place in inner silence that is incompatible to such world...so to deal with others who are not 'like you' in how they think and react to situations.
Give an example of this happening.
Oh, Sedna, do you see the humor in this? ...
Here's my example...did you get it?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Sedna wrote:Nu Lang wrote:
Hive mentality is what one stalks to get out of and once out of it uses stalking to stay out of it.Again, give an example of this happening.
The agreement that stalking others has any merit whatsoever IS a hive mentality. How is it that your continued practice is helping you to get out of it?
ok ok, I notice a pattern in your perceiving here...
When you say something its 'a valid perspective', when I say something it requires some kind of proof to give it any merit. Hey, no fair! I want some kind of proof, an example if you will, to show that your request of asking for examples has any merit.
ok please know I am not seriously asking this I don't want any examples, Sedna, 'I'll take you just the way you are' (Billy Joel).
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:In fact this is what DJ was telling Carlos is the reason stalking was develped was to deal with the world at large from a place in inner silence that is incompatible to such world...so to deal with others who are not 'like you' in how they think and react to situations.
"Within the art of stalking," don
Juan continued, "there is a technique which sorcerers use a great deal:
controlled folly. Sorcerers claim that controlled folly is the only way
they have of dealing with themselves - in their state of expanded
awareness and perception - and with everybody and everything in the
world of daily affairs."
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:"NL, credit is given where credit is due, I am just reminding you that until you make your case it has no merit."
No merit for whom Sedna?I repost this from the previous page because I noticed you never answered it. The reason I think you never answered it is because it stumped you and exposed the hive mentality of your thinking.
Before you were pretty much telling me, that unless I give an example that proves what I'm saying, it cannot be considered credible to, and its rather funny that the same 'logic' applies to you, but you uphold this idea your thoughts and perceptions are somehow 'different' and immune to your very assertions of merit. Such as, explain to me why I must make a case? Who am I making my case to? Who decides? Where is the merit in your claims of such criteria?
I know rationality is controlled insanity, do you? Controlled folly is the only thing to buffer this once its realized.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:
Nu Lang wrote:
"NL, credit is given where credit is due, I am just reminding you that until you make your case it has no merit."
No merit for whom Sedna?I repost this from the previous page because I noticed you never answered it. The reason I think you never answered it is because it stumped you and exposed the hive mentality of your thinking.
Before you were pretty much telling me, that unless I give an example that proves what I'm saying, it cannot be considered credible to, and its rather funny that the same 'logic' applies to you, but you uphold this idea your thoughts and perceptions are somehow 'different' and immune to your very assertions of merit. Such as, explain to me why I must make a case? Who am I making my case to? Who decides? Where is the merit in your claims of such criteria?
I know rationality is controlled insanity, do you? Controlled folly is the only thing to buffer this once its realized.
I believe that I have set out my case that what you are mis-labeling "stalking" others is indeed no more than your ego and indulgence in your internal dialog. I gave numerous examples and also asked numerous questions, most of which you haven't, for whatever reason, been able to answer. It was you, who stated where no other toltec teacher has stated, including Castaneda, that stalking others in the way that you do is in fact a true toltec technique...in other words, you are trying to introduce an agreement into the world that doesn't yet exist...I have merely asked, is that so? And, indeed, if it is so, then lay it out. If you can make your case suffciently, then you will have succeeded in introducing an agreement into the world that wasn't there before. Fail to make your case and you fail to acquire agreement...which is where you are now. Pardon me for noticing, but while you may have the agreement of one or two other people in this group you do not yet have the agreement of the rest of the group or seemingly any other toltect group out there.
Also, and pardon me for asserting a standard into this inquirery, but it seems to me that if a thing is credible that when described, or set out, that it would be instantly recognizable to all here as credible. At the moment, and again pardon me for the reality check, your technique of stalking others is not being recognized by everyone here as a credible technique. That you cannot convince your peers suggests that you may not have all the pieces or that you still lack a fair amount of clairity about what you are doing. Your inablity to respond to my request for more clarity likewise suggests that you are lacking clarity.
While you have treated this as a debate, claiming that I am trying to discredit you, all I have done is to ask for more clarity. You are free to disagree with me that it is unwise to blindly believe internet yahoos claiming to be naguals...it is, nonetheless, the way it is. I will believe you when you give me something that is reasonably believable. Again, you don't have to like that...although, I am sure I am not the only one to look at it this way.
Another such standard, and again pardon me for introducing it here, is to determine whether the results you claim to be getting are reproducable or if they are just a fluke.
Now, whether or not you want your claim that stalking others is a valid technique to be accepted is up to you. And either you do, or you don't...your response (the nature and quality of it) will answer that question.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Castaneda stalked others as a trickster. The trickster has come up in discussion recently and its a perfect example of Julian and DJ and Carlos all of them employed deception with their apprentices to help them see that the fixed reality is in fact alterable. So this is what stalking others is and you can see that Carlos did it and documented it. Simply put, 'stalking helps to move the ap and helps one see'. Sounds like a mantra..lol.
We stalk ourselves yes, and others too. Then there is regular world stalking, that is done to move the ap to a position of control and keep one fixed. Warriors are not concerned with this and strive to abandon any ties to it.
Master stalking is when one fully knows the art and utilizes it to the fullest. You would not 'suspect' a master stalker likely, they have become so natural with it.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nu Lang wrote:
Castaneda stalked others as a trickster. The trickster has come up in discussion recently and its a perfect example of Julian and DJ and Carlos all of them employed deception with their apprentices to help them see that the fixed reality is in fact alterable. So this is what stalking others is and you can see that Carlos did it and documented it. Simply put, 'stalking helps to move the ap and helps one see'. Sounds like a mantra..lol.
We stalk ourselves yes, and others too. Then there is regular world stalking, that is done to move the ap to a position of control and keep one fixed. Warriors are not concerned with this and strive to abandon any ties to it.
Master stalking is when one fully knows the art and utilizes it to the fullest. You would not 'suspect' a master stalker likely, they have become so natural with it.
And even though I tell you that this, what you say above, is not clear to me...you remain talking concepts rather than actual events. Castaneda worte books, I would like real life examples. But, I get that this is too hard for you.
|
