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Sedna wrote:
What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
I think several have given real life examples, including myself. Another stalking practice I occasionally engage in is when visiting The Mother-In-Law. In my "authentic self", I find this woman to be overbearing, manipulative and essentially about as annoying as a fly up one's nose. But when I stalk that awareness in myself as it relates to dealing with her, I go in with a smile, say what she wants to hear, and nod enthusiastically when she talks about her right-wing political views and insists that we really don't need a health care plan in the US because everyone should be able to pay for it as they go. Needless to say, I share none of her views, but as a stalker I have the absolute awareness that ANYTHING I say will only be used as an attempt to twist and manipulate... so I simply agree with timing, cunning, sweetness & forebearance. *shrugs* Nothing I can say will change her views, so the stalking exercise teaches me how to lose my own self-importance quickly & efficiently. It's not about stalking her - that would be altogether pointless - it's about stalking myself and my reactions to her.
I'm not sure what kind of examples you're looking for. Stalking is a subtle art in many ways, and something we do automatically once it becomes part of our being. It is a 24/7 prospect.
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Sedna wrote:
What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
Sedna people are giving examples, they are trying. Alien gave examples and just gave you more. Gonzo gave an example, moth did, nu lang did, I did. We're trying. And hopefully more will give examples too.
I can't give you an example of stalking others cause I don't stalk others. Anyway try to be patient. K?
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Sedna wrote:
datura8 wrote:
Sedna wrote:
Gonzo, I wish you would illuminate more on this. However, I guess, without talking about that person...instead please tell me about what you got out of it. As you said in another post you are the only one that saw what happened as masterful, I assume you are saying this because you got something out of the exchange...I'd like to know what you got out of it. I really hope that you can shed some light on this.
I allow for Gonzo to answer this post and say what he got out of it. But I do warn to be careful mentioning FW, or the post will be deleted.
Oh please not until I read it. So far only Gonzo and Enchantra have been able to talk about this with any lick of clarity. Also it is helpful that they are both of opposing minds on the subject.
I get keeping forums to the point, but if I am a noob and I can't get wth you are talking about with stalking then the forum isn't really to the point is it? If it is just a forum for friends to talk then what does it matter what they talk about? Just saying.Sedna thanks, I appreciate your concern. However, we had two very good stalking threads which became derailed about a former bad troll. I do not want her to take over in spirit, like she used to take over when she posted. And I know Gonzo very well and he can go on and on about her, so I have to get control of the thread before two good threads go on about the past.
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Gonzo wrote:
Nu Lang wrote:
Consider what your post above reveals about you Gonzo.
I have, and I'm content with it.
Consider that I just hid your post from view. Final warning, no more discussions about FW, at all.
Don't make me stalk your butt myself Gonzo. You know better, Don't push me!
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Sedna wrote:What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
"...practices this stuff..." - Which stuff? and yes, it is nearly all mental.
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alien wrote:
Sedna wrote:
What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
I think several have given real life examples, including myself. Another stalking practice I occasionally engage in is when visiting The Mother-In-Law. In my "authentic self", I find this woman to be overbearing, manipulative and essentially about as annoying as a fly up one's nose. But when I stalk that awareness in myself as it relates to dealing with her, I go in with a smile, say what she wants to hear, and nod enthusiastically when she talks about her right-wing political views and insists that we really don't need a health care plan in the US because everyone should be able to pay for it as they go. Needless to say, I share none of her views, but as a stalker I have the absolute awareness that ANYTHING I say will only be used as an attempt to twist and manipulate... so I simply agree with timing, cunning, sweetness & forebearance. *shrugs* Nothing I can say will change her views, so the stalking exercise teaches me how to lose my own self-importance quickly & efficiently. It's not about stalking her - that would be altogether pointless - it's about stalking myself and my reactions to her.
I'm not sure what kind of examples you're looking for. Stalking is a subtle art in many ways, and something we do automatically once it becomes part of our being. It is a 24/7 prospect.
That is a good example from your own life. What has been given so far is made up examples, theoreticals, and quotes when what I am seeking is examples from people's lives that they can draw the correlation between what CC said and what they are doing.
From your example, I would take stalking others to me being disengenious...and this reiterates what you described stalking could do, but it also completely backs up what you are asserting someone did that you didn't like. Also, I don't see this resulting in an AP shift for either you or your mopther-in-law so it is not clear to me that this is even stalking in the proper sense. Do you see my confusion? I mean on one hand someone give the quote about shifting AP but then no one has an example from their life that they did that shifted the AP, and also someone posts that no stalking exercise has ever resulted in their AP being shifted.
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datura8 wrote:
Sedna wrote:
What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
Sedna people are giving examples, they are trying. Alien gave examples and just gave you more. Gonzo gave an example, moth did, nu lang did, I did. We're trying. And hopefully more will give examples too.
I can't give you an example of stalking others cause I don't stalk others. Anyway try to be patient. K?
Thanks, hopefully I am being patient. However, it is unclear why this is so difficult for anyone here. What is seeming more and more likely is that what people are doing is not stalking.
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Gonzo wrote:
Sedna wrote:
What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
"...practices this stuff..." - Which stuff? and yes, it is nearly all mental.
So AP shifting, in your view, involves a mental shift?
If you have answered my other questions, I have not seen them...unfortunately.
What I would like to know, if you can without mentioning the other person, can you tell me what you got out of what happened? How did it shift your mental AP?
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Jumping in here on the stalking discussion....for me, stalking means the clarity with which I am able to place my attention, assuming that where I place my attention expands my energy and doesn't deplete it. So when I'm able to give my full attention to an act, a person, a thought, an object, a feeling, an event etc. and determine whether or not that attention is going to build upon my energy base (or power) then I want to continue placing my attention in that location. If my attention becomes muddied and causes me to lose a sense of energy expansion (power) then I want to take action to move away from that experience and how I do that is (my definition of) stalking.
For example, last night I awoke in the early, early morning and I was wide awake, couldn't get back to sleep. Wide awake. I began to "stalk" wide awake. I hadn't drank any coffee that day. I am feeling good about an upcoming move that involves getting rid of lots of household goods. I am clear that the move is a beneficial one for my family. Work is easy and hasn't caused undue stress recently. All of this I "stalk". Then what's the reason I'm wide awake? Nothing comes to me, I'm still wide awake two hours later. And then I remember---I ate a handful of chocolate before going to bed and the caffeine is doing its thing---I forgot I'd eaten that damn chocolate which tasted good in the moment but now had me wired. Simple, simple stalking.
Seems as though this is obvious. But for a short while it wasn't obvious because I'd forgotten I'd eaten the chocolate (I had my attention placed on any number of variables that weren't the culprit for being wide awake). And this is oftentimes when the purpose for stalking becomes relevant for me. When I have a sense that my actions are unclouded with "messiness", drama, old "tapes", ego, etc. then stalking isn't necessary or expedient. Take the above example. Was I really okay with my upcoming move? Did saying "No" to a recent job offer affect my current contract? Was my family going to accept this upcoming move? All of those subtle influences that can so easily cloud an experience. If a hunter was standing clearly in front of his target, the deer, unclouded by shrubbery or hillside or action by the animal to get away from the hunter, then all the hunter would have to do is pull the trigger---bam, easy. But stalking becomes necessary when things aren't clear, when things become cloudy with any number of variables influencing the experience.
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Jessicar wrote:
Jumping in here on the stalking discussion....for me, stalking means the clarity with which I am able to place my attention, assuming that where I place my attention expands my energy and doesn't deplete it. So when I'm able to give my full attention to an act, a person, a thought, an object, a feeling, an event etc. and determine whether or not that attention is going to build upon my energy base (or power) then I want to continue placing my attention in that location. If my attention becomes muddied and causes me to lose a sense of energy expansion (power) then I want to take action to move away from that experience and how I do that is (my definition of) stalking.
For example, last night I awoke in the early, early morning and I was wide awake, couldn't get back to sleep. Wide awake. I began to "stalk" wide awake. I hadn't drank any coffee that day. I am feeling good about an upcoming move that involves getting rid of lots of household goods. I am clear that the move is a beneficial one for my family. Work is easy and hasn't caused undue stress recently. All of this I "stalk". Then what's the reason I'm wide awake? Nothing comes to me, I'm still wide awake two hours later. And then I remember---I ate a handful of chocolate before going to bed and the caffeine is doing its thing---I forgot I'd eaten that damn chocolate which tasted good in the moment but now had me wired. Simple, simple stalking.
Seems as though this is obvious. But for a short while it wasn't obvious because I'd forgotten I'd eaten the chocolate (I had my attention placed on any number of variables that weren't the culprit for being wide awake). And this is oftentimes when the purpose for stalking becomes relevant for me. When I have a sense that my actions are unclouded with "messiness", drama, old "tapes", ego, etc. then stalking isn't necessary or expedient. Take the above example. Was I really okay with my upcoming move? Did saying "No" to a recent job offer affect my current contract? Was my family going to accept this upcoming move? All of those subtle influences that can so easily cloud an experience. If a hunter was standing clearly in front of his target, the deer, unclouded by shrubbery or hillside or action by the animal to get away from the hunter, then all the hunter would have to do is pull the trigger---bam, easy. But stalking becomes necessary when things aren't clear, when things become cloudy with any number of variables influencing the experience.
Good answer!
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Jessicar wrote:
Jumping in here on the stalking discussion....for me, stalking means the clarity with which I am able to place my attention, assuming that where I place my attention expands my energy and doesn't deplete it. So when I'm able to give my full attention to an act, a person, a thought, an object, a feeling, an event etc. and determine whether or not that attention is going to build upon my energy base (or power) then I want to continue placing my attention in that location. If my attention becomes muddied and causes me to lose a sense of energy expansion (power) then I want to take action to move away from that experience and how I do that is (my definition of) stalking.
For example, last night I awoke in the early, early morning and I was wide awake, couldn't get back to sleep. Wide awake. I began to "stalk" wide awake. I hadn't drank any coffee that day. I am feeling good about an upcoming move that involves getting rid of lots of household goods. I am clear that the move is a beneficial one for my family. Work is easy and hasn't caused undue stress recently. All of this I "stalk". Then what's the reason I'm wide awake? Nothing comes to me, I'm still wide awake two hours later. And then I remember---I ate a handful of chocolate before going to bed and the caffeine is doing its thing---I forgot I'd eaten that damn chocolate which tasted good in the moment but now had me wired. Simple, simple stalking.
Seems as though this is obvious. But for a short while it wasn't obvious because I'd forgotten I'd eaten the chocolate (I had my attention placed on any number of variables that weren't the culprit for being wide awake). And this is oftentimes when the purpose for stalking becomes relevant for me. When I have a sense that my actions are unclouded with "messiness", drama, old "tapes", ego, etc. then stalking isn't necessary or expedient. Take the above example. Was I really okay with my upcoming move? Did saying "No" to a recent job offer affect my current contract? Was my family going to accept this upcoming move? All of those subtle influences that can so easily cloud an experience. If a hunter was standing clearly in front of his target, the deer, unclouded by shrubbery or hillside or action by the animal to get away from the hunter, then all the hunter would have to do is pull the trigger---bam, easy. But stalking becomes necessary when things aren't clear, when things become cloudy with any number of variables influencing the experience.
That is a great example, thanks. I wonder though, maybe you were awake because you were happy and at peace about the move, like a natural high? When you use the word "stalking" it seems to me that the real word would be investigating.
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That is a great example, thanks. I wonder though, maybe you were awake because you were happy and at peace about the move, like a natural high? When you use the word "stalking" it seems to me that the real word would be investigating.
You use the term "real word"---from my experience the sorcerer (seer, nagual, sorcerer, witch---whatever term fits for you) has to fully engage with the experience--any sorcery experience--before they can claim a definition about that same experience. And before that they have to watch for getting hung up on definition--it's chaos at times trying to determine the exact definition for any sorcery term---"stalking" being a prime example here. For example, years ago I spent a lot of time trying to get into "heightened awareness" before I realized I had been in it all along. Ditto for a dozen other sorcery terms. Take what resonates for you regarding"stalking", practice doing it, and then come up with your own definition. Not very scientific or "theological" but it's when the word, the definition, the tonal becomes the nagual and then the definition no longer matters.
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Sedna wrote:
alien wrote:
Sedna wrote:
What remains missing is real life examples. I get that when you are unsure you look to CC's words, but what seems missing is any application of those words to your actual life. I am beginning to wonder if anyone here actually practices any of this stuff or if it is mental practice alone?
I think several have given real life examples, including myself. Another stalking practice I occasionally engage in is when visiting The Mother-In-Law. In my "authentic self", I find this woman to be overbearing, manipulative and essentially about as annoying as a fly up one's nose. But when I stalk that awareness in myself as it relates to dealing with her, I go in with a smile, say what she wants to hear, and nod enthusiastically when she talks about her right-wing political views and insists that we really don't need a health care plan in the US because everyone should be able to pay for it as they go. Needless to say, I share none of her views, but as a stalker I have the absolute awareness that ANYTHING I say will only be used as an attempt to twist and manipulate... so I simply agree with timing, cunning, sweetness & forebearance. *shrugs* Nothing I can say will change her views, so the stalking exercise teaches me how to lose my own self-importance quickly & efficiently. It's not about stalking her - that would be altogether pointless - it's about stalking myself and my reactions to her.
I'm not sure what kind of examples you're looking for. Stalking is a subtle art in many ways, and something we do automatically once it becomes part of our being. It is a 24/7 prospect.
That is a good example from your own life. What has been given so far is made up examples, theoreticals, and quotes when what I am seeking is examples from people's lives that they can draw the correlation between what CC said and what they are doing.
From your example, I would take stalking others to me being disengenious...and this reiterates what you described stalking could do, but it also completely backs up what you are asserting someone did that you didn't like. Also, I don't see this resulting in an AP shift for either you or your mopther-in-law so it is not clear to me that this is even stalking in the proper sense. Do you see my confusion? I mean on one hand someone give the quote about shifting AP but then no one has an example from their life that they did that shifted the AP, and also someone posts that no stalking exercise has ever resulted in their AP being shifted.
I think different stalkers have different goals. In the example I gave about about my MIL, I am not seeking to shift my AP nearly as much as I am looking to gain control over the folly which otherwise results whenever I have to spend much time around the woman. I used to visit her with dread and come home miserable. Now I just shine it on and couldn't care less if she votes Republican, Democrat or Martian. Stalking MYSELF has enabled me to realize that I wanted her to "like" me - and that is simply never going to happen, so I stopped caring one way or the other, since it's always just our own self-importance that makes us want to be likied/accepted by others.
As for being disengenuous, maybe that's how some would interpret it, but I see it more as being free of her manipulations. Put simply: she no longer has any power over me. Plus, KNOWING that she is never going to change relieves me of any sense of "obligation" to speak the truth. Someone said something in another thread about trying to talk to ordinary folks about sorcery, and my feeling on that is... why would we bother? My MIL, for example, is perfectly content with Atheism as her religion, so there's absolutely no reason to even try to discuss anything of a "spiritual" nature. Not my job. Not my problem. Toltecs have no need to proselytize. Heh. Is that being disengenuous or just detached? When someone has made it clear that they really aren't interested in what you have to say, I've found that the best way to handle them is to simply nod and smile. Doing so robs the tyrant of their power.
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Someone said something in another thread about trying to talk to ordinary folks about sorcery, and my feeling on that is... why would we bother? -Alien
I said that But what I meant was, and you completely took it out of context here, was that we stalk the magnetic pull of others who would take our attention into their realm of perceiving. As sorcerers we maintain link with spirit, and we do so in a world where those who are not are is biding for attention. And this is so even among warriors as it takes a good while for each warrior to be clear of conditioning, but at least with warriors they talk the same language and understand far more then if you tried talking to someone else.
I seem to be a person people in these stalking threads like to take words out of context, lol. And instead shape what I said to suit their POV which is not even remotely close to what I stated when I said that. Then other people come along and read this here and perhaps perceive you grasped my original meaning but only what is said here is your interpretation. But I see you missed what I meant back when I said it. There is no reason to bother talking sorcery to those who are not into it, that was not even close to what I was saying.
If you want me to, I can retrieve that post and explain it again. Most important is I think we have clarity about what we each are saying whenever possible.
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I see nothing wrong with talking to others from your heart. NL mentions maintaining a connection to spirit, other people often sense and feel that and want what I have so I share. I don't have a problem with that.
I think that there is a way to be your true self with your MIL and get through the experience. I do not think that it requires that you be an invented self. I get that you haven't found that way yet, but I suspect that your life will be much the better for it when you do.
I think what gets turned around here, and perhaps why everyone is so hard pressed to examine their actual experiences in terms of how they apply, is that members here talk like they have some authority on the subject, when it seems that everyone is struggling just as much as I am to understand what did CC really mean. The difference is, I am not pretending to know...I know I don't know.
I think whoever that person was and whatever they did, you say created false people, showed you a way to be with your MIL and that it helped you. I just think that there is a better way, one that does not require you to be fake. I think you hit on it when you stated that you stopped caring whether she liked you or not. The next question to ask yourself, is what is it that you would really like to leave her with? And I don't mean a piece of your mind, I mean in the lovingness of your heart, what is the one thing that you would like to leave her? Perhaps if you can answer that for yourself and have that answer in your mind, your next visit with your MIL might be more satisfying. While I know you make it out of there now without being hurt, my guess is that it is not a very satisfying expereince.
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Sedna wrote: I just think that there is a better way, one that does not require
you to be fake. I think you hit on it when you stated that you stopped
caring whether she liked you or not.
I'm actually struggling with this one right now, have been for years and it's not easy to get over, but awareness of it is definitely the key.
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Sedna wrote:
I see nothing wrong with talking to others from your heart. NL mentions maintaining a connection to spirit, other people often sense and feel that and want what I have so I share. I don't have a problem with that.
I think that there is a way to be your true self with your MIL and get through the experience. I do not think that it requires that you be an invented self. I get that you haven't found that way yet, but I suspect that your life will be much the better for it when you do.
I think what gets turned around here, and perhaps why everyone is so hard pressed to examine their actual experiences in terms of how they apply, is that members here talk like they have some authority on the subject, when it seems that everyone is struggling just as much as I am to understand what did CC really mean. The difference is, I am not pretending to know...I know I don't know.
I think whoever that person was and whatever they did, you say created false people, showed you a way to be with your MIL and that it helped you. I just think that there is a better way, one that does not require you to be fake. I think you hit on it when you stated that you stopped caring whether she liked you or not. The next question to ask yourself, is what is it that you would really like to leave her with? And I don't mean a piece of your mind, I mean in the lovingness of your heart, what is the one thing that you would like to leave her? Perhaps if you can answer that for yourself and have that answer in your mind, your next visit with your MIL might be more satisfying. While I know you make it out of there now without being hurt, my guess is that it is not a very satisfying expereince.Heh. You assume that I would WANT a "satisfying experience" with my MIL, when that is really not the case. Neither do I want an unsatisfying experience, but it's kinda like going to the dentist in some regards. We do what we have to do to get through the day, and there is really no point in upsetting someone else's apple cart. Believe me, I've tried to be "authentic" with this woman, and I have stalked the situation sufficiently to know that simply is not possible. What would I like to leave with her? Absolutely nothing. That is my detachment, based on years of observation and interaction. There is nothing anyone CAN leave with her because it is her choice to remain locked indelibly in her own belief systems and programming. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Can't teach a pig to sing. LOL.
Now, with that said, I bear the woman no ill will - so the kindest gift I can give her is to leave her to her own illusions. It would be nothing more than self-importance on my part to try to tell her about my own beliefs or my own path. It only upsets her, in the same way trying to talk to a born-again evangelist about Buddhism will generally only bring on an episode of red-faced confrontation.
And for the record, please don't credit FW with teaching me to deal with my MIL. Gotta laugh at that one. The only thing I learned from FW was how to spot a mad tyrant at the onset.
If you know anything about stalking, you would already know that it isn't about creating false identities. My MIL knows perfectly well who I am and I make no effort to hide that. What I DO make an effort to do is to give her precisely what she wants (which is another aspect of stalking). In this case, she wants to feel she is "winning" every argument, even when those arguments are phrased in the form of a "conversation". If you've ever dealt with a master manipulator, you know what I'm talking about, so there's really not much point trying to pretend this is any sweetness and light situation. Life is what it is, and people are who they are... and the warrior who thinks s/he can change that is not only deluded, but dangerously misguided. So, the stalker learns to allow people to be who they are without feeling threatened within themselves. Carlos could go and work as a waiter without feeling demeaned by it, and I can spend time with my MIL without feeling threatened by her judgmental attitudes. By allowing her to "win", there is no conflict, no confrontation. That's simply a warrior's detachment.
Yes, I "hit it" when I said I don't care if she likes me or not. Hehheh. Ask yourself this: why SHOULD a warrior care if s/he is liked or not? Jumping through hoops trying to get someone to like you would be the ultimate exercise in self-importance. I don't go out of my way to make her dislike me. I simply don't care - and that is a hard state to attain. Not callous, just indifferent.
This is one reason I've always maintained that nagualism is a SYSTEM of knowledge. It has to work together within itself or it doesn't work at all. We learn to stop the world, lose self-importance, become detached, stalk ourselves, and so on... all as a whole unit of knowledge. Leave out any of those elements, and the system loses effectiveness. In the big picture, nagualism isn't a "nice" path of new age sweetness and light wherein we all join hands and sing Cumbaya. It is a solitary journey requiring the evolution of the Self into the totality of the double - and it won't be done by giving a fig what others think. That may sound harsh, but that isn't my intent. It's simply what is.
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Nu Lang wrote:
Someone said something in another thread about trying to talk to ordinary folks about sorcery, and my feeling on that is... why would we bother? -Alien
I said that But what I meant was, and you completely took it out of context here, was that we stalk the magnetic pull of others who would take our attention into their realm of perceiving. As sorcerers we maintain link with spirit, and we do so in a world where those who are not are is biding for attention. And this is so even among warriors as it takes a good while for each warrior to be clear of conditioning, but at least with warriors they talk the same language and understand far more then if you tried talking to someone else.
Yes, I actually knew it was you who said it, but since that really wasn't the gist of my point, I didn't think it was necessary to go into a lot of background explanation. I wasn't picking on you, in other words - just saying that trying to talk to phantoms about sorcery never ends well. LOL. Obviously we both know that, so to me this is a non-issue. Also, for the record, there has been a recent discussion in another private forum I visit about this same topic, and I suspect some of the same participants are here. One person maintains that it is a warrior's "obligation" to try to "inject some light" into the world at large, and my stance is that such behaviour is altogether based in self-importance and the false belief that we can change other people. So in some ways, my comments here are an expansion on what has been discussed elsewhere. My bad. Mea culpa. So sorry. Seriously, though, no harm intended.
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Lol! Oh gosh i read this as "no HAM intended. Im on the floor!
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Enchantra wrote:
Lol! Oh gosh i read this as "no HAM intended. Im on the floor!Okay now I'm cackling too. Pork optional. Or as a friend of mine once said, "Pork is not a verb." Heh.
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alien wrote:
Sedna wrote:
I see nothing wrong with talking to others from your heart. NL mentions maintaining a connection to spirit, other people often sense and feel that and want what I have so I share. I don't have a problem with that.
I think that there is a way to be your true self with your MIL and get through the experience. I do not think that it requires that you be an invented self. I get that you haven't found that way yet, but I suspect that your life will be much the better for it when you do.
I think what gets turned around here, and perhaps why everyone is so hard pressed to examine their actual experiences in terms of how they apply, is that members here talk like they have some authority on the subject, when it seems that everyone is struggling just as much as I am to understand what did CC really mean. The difference is, I am not pretending to know...I know I don't know.
I think whoever that person was and whatever they did, you say created false people, showed you a way to be with your MIL and that it helped you. I just think that there is a better way, one that does not require you to be fake. I think you hit on it when you stated that you stopped caring whether she liked you or not. The next question to ask yourself, is what is it that you would really like to leave her with? And I don't mean a piece of your mind, I mean in the lovingness of your heart, what is the one thing that you would like to leave her? Perhaps if you can answer that for yourself and have that answer in your mind, your next visit with your MIL might be more satisfying. While I know you make it out of there now without being hurt, my guess is that it is not a very satisfying expereince.Heh. You assume that I would WANT a "satisfying experience" with my MIL, when that is really not the case. Neither do I want an unsatisfying experience, but it's kinda like going to the dentist in some regards. We do what we have to do to get through the day, and there is really no point in upsetting someone else's apple cart. Believe me, I've tried to be "authentic" with this woman, and I have stalked the situation sufficiently to know that simply is not possible. What would I like to leave with her? Absolutely nothing. That is my detachment, based on years of observation and interaction. There is nothing anyone CAN leave with her because it is her choice to remain locked indelibly in her own belief systems and programming. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Can't teach a pig to sing. LOL.
Now, with that said, I bear the woman no ill will - so the kindest gift I can give her is to leave her to her own illusions. It would be nothing more than self-importance on my part to try to tell her about my own beliefs or my own path. It only upsets her, in the same way trying to talk to a born-again evangelist about Buddhism will generally only bring on an episode of red-faced confrontation.
And for the record, please don't credit FW with teaching me to deal with my MIL. Gotta laugh at that one. The only thing I learned from FW was how to spot a mad tyrant at the onset.
If you know anything about stalking, you would already know that it isn't about creating false identities. My MIL knows perfectly well who I am and I make no effort to hide that. What I DO make an effort to do is to give her precisely what she wants (which is another aspect of stalking). In this case, she wants to feel she is "winning" every argument, even when those arguments are phrased in the form of a "conversation". If you've ever dealt with a master manipulator, you know what I'm talking about, so there's really not much point trying to pretend this is any sweetness and light situation. Life is what it is, and people are who they are... and the warrior who thinks s/he can change that is not only deluded, but dangerously misguided. So, the stalker learns to allow people to be who they are without feeling threatened within themselves. Carlos could go and work as a waiter without feeling demeaned by it, and I can spend time with my MIL without feeling threatened by her judgmental attitudes. By allowing her to "win", there is no conflict, no confrontation. That's simply a warrior's detachment.
Yes, I "hit it" when I said I don't care if she likes me or not. Hehheh. Ask yourself this: why SHOULD a warrior care if s/he is liked or not? Jumping through hoops trying to get someone to like you would be the ultimate exercise in self-importance. I don't go out of my way to make her dislike me. I simply don't care - and that is a hard state to attain. Not callous, just indifferent.
This is one reason I've always maintained that nagualism is a SYSTEM of knowledge. It has to work together within itself or it doesn't work at all. We learn to stop the world, lose self-importance, become detached, stalk ourselves, and so on... all as a whole unit of knowledge. Leave out any of those elements, and the system loses effectiveness. In the big picture, nagualism isn't a "nice" path of new age sweetness and light wherein we all join hands and sing Cumbaya. It is a solitary journey requiring the evolution of the Self into the totality of the double - and it won't be done by giving a fig what others think. That may sound harsh, but that isn't my intent. It's simply what is.
Great post alien! And I agree, trying to get other people to like you is serious self-importance. A warrior is unconcerned if people like them, they're hooked in the infinte.
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datura8 wrote:
Great post alien! And I agree, trying to get other people to like you is serious self-importance. A warrior is unconcerned if people like them, they're hooked in the infinte.
It's self importance but sometimes can be born of insecurities, and core wounds such as being unworthy. So it's complicated thing.
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alien wrote:
Sedna wrote:
I see nothing wrong with talking to others from your heart. NL mentions maintaining a connection to spirit, other people often sense and feel that and want what I have so I share. I don't have a problem with that.
I think that there is a way to be your true self with your MIL and get through the experience. I do not think that it requires that you be an invented self. I get that you haven't found that way yet, but I suspect that your life will be much the better for it when you do.
I think what gets turned around here, and perhaps why everyone is so hard pressed to examine their actual experiences in terms of how they apply, is that members here talk like they have some authority on the subject, when it seems that everyone is struggling just as much as I am to understand what did CC really mean. The difference is, I am not pretending to know...I know I don't know.
I think whoever that person was and whatever they did, you say created false people, showed you a way to be with your MIL and that it helped you. I just think that there is a better way, one that does not require you to be fake. I think you hit on it when you stated that you stopped caring whether she liked you or not. The next question to ask yourself, is what is it that you would really like to leave her with? And I don't mean a piece of your mind, I mean in the lovingness of your heart, what is the one thing that you would like to leave her? Perhaps if you can answer that for yourself and have that answer in your mind, your next visit with your MIL might be more satisfying. While I know you make it out of there now without being hurt, my guess is that it is not a very satisfying expereince.Heh. You assume that I would WANT a "satisfying experience" with my MIL, when that is really not the case. Neither do I want an unsatisfying experience, but it's kinda like going to the dentist in some regards. We do what we have to do to get through the day, and there is really no point in upsetting someone else's apple cart. Believe me, I've tried to be "authentic" with this woman, and I have stalked the situation sufficiently to know that simply is not possible. What would I like to leave with her? Absolutely nothing. That is my detachment, based on years of observation and interaction. There is nothing anyone CAN leave with her because it is her choice to remain locked indelibly in her own belief systems and programming. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Can't teach a pig to sing. LOL.
Now, with that said, I bear the woman no ill will - so the kindest gift I can give her is to leave her to her own illusions. It would be nothing more than self-importance on my part to try to tell her about my own beliefs or my own path. It only upsets her, in the same way trying to talk to a born-again evangelist about Buddhism will generally only bring on an episode of red-faced confrontation.
And for the record, please don't credit FW with teaching me to deal with my MIL. Gotta laugh at that one. The only thing I learned from FW was how to spot a mad tyrant at the onset.
If you know anything about stalking, you would already know that it isn't about creating false identities. My MIL knows perfectly well who I am and I make no effort to hide that. What I DO make an effort to do is to give her precisely what she wants (which is another aspect of stalking). In this case, she wants to feel she is "winning" every argument, even when those arguments are phrased in the form of a "conversation". If you've ever dealt with a master manipulator, you know what I'm talking about, so there's really not much point trying to pretend this is any sweetness and light situation. Life is what it is, and people are who they are... and the warrior who thinks s/he can change that is not only deluded, but dangerously misguided. So, the stalker learns to allow people to be who they are without feeling threatened within themselves. Carlos could go and work as a waiter without feeling demeaned by it, and I can spend time with my MIL without feeling threatened by her judgmental attitudes. By allowing her to "win", there is no conflict, no confrontation. That's simply a warrior's detachment.
Yes, I "hit it" when I said I don't care if she likes me or not. Hehheh. Ask yourself this: why SHOULD a warrior care if s/he is liked or not? Jumping through hoops trying to get someone to like you would be the ultimate exercise in self-importance. I don't go out of my way to make her dislike me. I simply don't care - and that is a hard state to attain. Not callous, just indifferent.
This is one reason I've always maintained that nagualism is a SYSTEM of knowledge. It has to work together within itself or it doesn't work at all. We learn to stop the world, lose self-importance, become detached, stalk ourselves, and so on... all as a whole unit of knowledge. Leave out any of those elements, and the system loses effectiveness. In the big picture, nagualism isn't a "nice" path of new age sweetness and light wherein we all join hands and sing Cumbaya. It is a solitary journey requiring the evolution of the Self into the totality of the double - and it won't be done by giving a fig what others think. That may sound harsh, but that isn't my intent. It's simply what is.
Most people want just to be heard, understood, and cared about. True, I assume your MIL is no different. What you call winning every argument may just be her wanting so desperately to be heard. Why does she want you to hear her? Why is it so important to her? Again, I assume, because she cares about you. How much more lovely things would be if they could just say that.
I said what I said because you described the other person doing it and then described yourself doing it. You may think it is different in your own mind, but I read what I read and it is the same to me. You create a false persona and act fake with her. That reads as unauthentic or, in other words, an invented self. All I am saying is that there is a way to be with her, be authentic, and still have an "adequate" time. What does the MIL's child want? How does that person wish things would go?
Being authentic does not necessarily mean trying to change her or tell her all your beliefs. Maybe you don't understand what I am suggesting here?
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Enchatra stated she was struggling with being authentic in challenging situations, Datura stated that wanting people to like you is self importance, and Alien doesn't seem to see what I am suggesting, so I thought it might help to clarify what I mean.
Being authentic, and not being an invented self, does not mean trying to get someone to like you. Feeling that you are not being liked is an invention that comes from an invented self. The authentic self just is. Also being authentic does not mean trying to bring light or teach anyone anything. It doesn't even mean sharing what you do. One can be ablsolutely silent and still be authentic. However, there are dozens of ways to be silent and not be authentic...like being silent because you feel you are suppose to be...the feeling that you are suppose to be is an invention. This invented self is tricky business.
Here is an example from my life. I can walk into work smiling and someone says to me, "I don't know how you do it, you are always so happy." I say, "I don't take life too seriously, it is just life after all" and smile and walk away. I told them a very real part of my personal philosophy and wasn't fake in the least.
Unfortunately, I don't have any examples of dealing with difficult people like Alien's MIL, but here is how I might have handled a visit. Meeting a new person, I would be curious about that person and probably ask a lot of questions. Where I found similarities, I would probably share that I too enjoy whatever it is. If I found they had good taste in something, I'd probably say that too. Since it is a family member and since gift giving would be expected later on, I'd also been taking mental notes what kinds of things that person likes and what kind of gifts I might be able to get them. Every successive time I saw that person, I'd ask how the various details they had shared were progressing. This seems to be a good formula for getting along with others and is authentic.
However, if I work up in Alien's body and had to deal with this person with the way the relationship is now, I would take serious stock of it and of myself in it. Assuming that I love my spouse, and assuming that my spouse wishes we'd get along better, I would look for ways that I could make that happen. Giving up the fight is one way to go about it, but repairing the damage is another way to address it. I might sit down with her and looking in her eyes and say, "I wanted to talk to you about something. I know that we haven't been getting along very well. I have taken it personally that you feel this way about that thing we were talking about and I just haven't been able to like you since that day. I realize now that I was taking it too personally and I am sorry. I would like it if we were better friends. Family is important to me, and I love your child very much as I know you do too." Something like that anyways.
It is authentic, it is real, it is to the point, and it is honest. But then living authentically yields some amazing and unexpected results...it is not for everyone, only for those who want their freedom. You see, cringing everytime you visit this person that is not freedom.
I get that everyone gets into difficult situations sometimes, but if you look you will find that the root of the difficulty stems from your own transgression from what is really in your heart, from being authentic. If you can find the transgression and repair it the relationship usually repairs itself as well.
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Sedna wrote:Enchatra stated she was struggling with being authentic in challenging situations,
Actually what I struggle with is worrying about how I will be recieved, if people will like what I have to say. I don't struggle with being authentic, just with knowing what to share.
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