slavery vs Freedom

[Littlepaw]

The idea i have been having recently is about freedom.  i am wondering if their is some kind of ultimate battle between slavery and Freedom.  I look at the world or the way I see it and I realize that people believe and want different things.  And i realize that I have to support the right of those people who want to dominate, kill and enslave others.  It is their right as Free human beings to pursue their personal goals based on what they believe about the world.  i think  this concept seems to me a little bit Zen, what will be will be, the path of least resistance.  Knowing that in the end these people will run there course.  I think maybe resisting what is perceived as  wrong doing by others is counterproductive to Freedom.  The other day i actually prayed for  America and its leaders to do what was right in their hearts.   I took that idea from Buddhism.    What a crazy world!

[quantumshaman]

Sounds to me like you're talking about "the right way to live" (though I'm sure Gonzo might disagree - heh).  When you are talking about those who want to dominate, kill and enslave others... clearly these individuals have lost connection to the natural order of things, which includes "the right way to live."  What is TRWTL?  Simply put, it is knowing the difference between "right" and "wrong" - not in any transient social/cultural way, but within the core nature of what it means to be human.  It would be "wrong" for example, to knowingly kill the last buffalo, or to take life unnecessarily - for the first inalienable right of all living things is the right to live.  It would be "right", for example, to plant 2 trees for every one you cut down - because otherwise, there is a clear danger not only to one's OWN well-being, but to the well-being of other living things.
When people want to kill, dominate and enslave others, it really isn't their "right" as much as it is their choice (and not a choice made from the perspective of TRWTL). 
Praying for America at this point may be like throwing gasoline on a fire.  LOL.  I don't follow the political machinations, because our vote stopped mattering a few years back - when the people elected a president, and that man never took office.  What it boils down to is that if the powers that be don't like the way an election turns out, there are ways to alter it to their liking - so in that way, America is no longer a democracy, if ever it was. I also stopped watching television years ago, due to the completely biased media, always waving the flag and telling us what to think, while at the same time it was (still is? - dunno) illegal for the media to show pictures of coffins of fallen soldiers returning from the middle east.
Truth no longer exists in the media, if ever it did.  I'd sooner believe aliens have possessed Justin Bieber than I'd believe any "news" coming out of the US media these days.  (Too bad the aliens don't EAT Justin Bieber... *bwahaha*).
Point being - TRWTL is not something that can be taught directly because there are too many people willing to argue that it doesn't even exist.  And yet, for anyone who stops long enough to really look into their heart, it's right there.  To say otherwise is to admit one is part of the problem and not part of the solution.  That's the worst form of slavery - being slave to the consensus, mouthpiece of the agreement. 
D

[Mornings Son]

.  That's the worst form of slavery - being slave to the consensus, mouthpiece of the agreement.
HELL YA!!

[Littlepaw]

Glad to see your Forum open again Quantum Shaman.

[quantumshaman]

Thanks, Littlepaw.  After some nudging from my double, I decided to re-open the doors.  Hope to see some of you over there. 
http://www.quantumshaman2.com/thesorcer ... /index.php

[Guest]

quantumshaman wrote:Thanks, Littlepaw.  After some nudging from my double, I decided to re-open the doors.  Hope to see some of you over there. 
http://www.quantumshaman2.com/thesorcer ... /index.php
It seems impossible to register.

[Cedar Waxwing]

no isianisms politk

[dreamgirl]

Cedar waxwings dart among the swallows
Iridescent fish with wings,
Layers of life above the water.
Under, the trout.


Judith Beach Nichols (1919-1979)


i saw this poem as an introduction to a book I began today, "While I was Gone", Sue Miller.  Made me think of you, we have not met really, I am dreamgirl, nice to meet you.

[quantumshaman]

songbird wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
Thanks, Littlepaw.  After some nudging from my double, I decided to re-open the doors.  Hope to see some of you over there. 
http://www.quantumshaman2.com/thesorcer ... /index.php
It seems impossible to register. 

Hey, Lori...
I'd be honored to have you there.

[quantumshaman]

songbird wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
Thanks, Littlepaw.  After some nudging from my double, I decided to re-open the doors.  Hope to see some of you over there. 
http://www.quantumshaman2.com/thesorcer ... /index.php
It seems impossible to register. 

There SHOULD be an "announcement" telling how to register, but basically, you need to email me with a username, and I'll set up the account for you.  We had to shut down user registration due to spambots - the server threatened to pull the forum entirely it got so bad - so until I can get an alternative worked out, I'm doing it manually.
Email me at:
info@quantumshaman.com
Sorry for the inconvenience.
D

[Guest]

quantumshaman wroteongbird wrote:
quantumshaman wrote:
Thanks, Littlepaw.  After some nudging from my double, I decided to re-open the doors.  Hope to see some of you over there. 
http://www.quantumshaman2.com/thesorcer ... /index.php
It seems impossible to register. 

There SHOULD be an "announcement" telling how to register, but basically, you need to email me with a username, and I'll set up the account for you.  We had to shut down user registration due to spambots - the server threatened to pull the forum entirely it got so bad - so until I can get an alternative worked out, I'm doing it manually.
Email me at:
info@quantumshaman.com
Sorry for the inconvenience.
D
  Thx D!

[Cedar Waxwing]

Nice to meet you also dreamgirl. Thank you for the poem also. Super enjoyed!

[BarefootInTheSand]

Littlepaw wrote:The idea i have been having recently is about freedom.  i am wondering if their is some kind of ultimate battle between slavery and Freedom.  I look at the world or the way I see it and I realize that people believe and want different things.  And i realize that I have to support the right of those people who want to dominate, kill and enslave others.  It is their right as Free human beings to pursue their personal goals based on what they believe about the world.  i think  this concept seems to me a little bit Zen, what will be will be, the path of least resistance.  Knowing that in the end these people will run there course.  I think maybe resisting what is perceived as  wrong doing by others is counterproductive to Freedom.  The other day i actually prayed for  America and its leaders to do what was right in their hearts.   I took that idea from Buddhism.    What a crazy world!
I define freedom as having conquered that part in one that holds us back from full expression.  Like a long loud scream at the top of the lungs...the conquering of all the strange things that come up inside keeping one back from that.

[messengerpidgeon]

i have come across the idea being put forward that the slave and the free inhabit the same space somehow or share use of the same mind , this i find very curious , interpretationally , for one path might use such imagery , so slavery begins within the individual ? if ,and individual be called such , how is this possible .

[Archaos]

Littlepaw wrote:
The idea i have been having recently is about freedom.  i am wondering if their is some kind of ultimate battle between slavery and Freedom.  I look at the world or the way I see it and I realize that people believe and want different things.  And i realize that I have to support the right of those people who want to dominate, kill and enslave others.  It is their right as Free human beings to pursue their personal goals based on what they believe about the world.  i think  this concept seems to me a little bit Zen, what will be will be, the path of least resistance.  Knowing that in the end these people will run there course.  I think maybe resisting what is perceived as  wrong doing by others is counterproductive to Freedom.  The other day i actually prayed for  America and its leaders to do what was right in their hearts.   I took that idea from Buddhism.    What a crazy world!Hi Littlepaw!
I feel it is very insightful of you to recognise the rights of others.
For me, if someone does something, they obviously had "the right" to do it.
Who am I to argue with "what is"?
If people aren't free to enslave others, then they are not free at all.
Freedom cannot be a set of conditions. That would be conditional freedom, not freedom.
As you say, resistance would be counterproductive.
So if we see a battle between slavery and freedom, we see counterproductivity.
For me, I see the option of slavery and the option of freedom existing simultaneously.
"Nothing can be done to give people a more balanced understanding of the glow of awareness. At least, there is nothing that seers can do. Seers aim to be free, to be unbiased witnesses incapable of passing judgment; otherwise they would have to assume the responsibility for bringing about a more adjusted cycle. No one can do that. The new cycle, if it is to come, must come of itself."
 - Fire from Within

  Cheers!

[nemo.primeradiant]

Hello, Archaos, read all your posts, quite an introduction. 
You said from FFW: 



"Nothing can be done to give people a more balanced understanding of the glow of awareness. At least, there is nothing that seers can do. Seers aim to be free, to be unbiased witnesses incapable of passing judgment; otherwise they would have to assume the responsibility for bringing about a more adjusted cycle. No one can do that. The new cycle, if it is to come, must come of itself."

- Fire from WithinThe earlier part of your post I see as an expression of the third point. Through all your other posts you mention first attention and second attention and not third. I would be interested in the definitions you use/mean when used, regardin first and second attention and if you  have one, then that of the third attention.

Your quote in gold, conjures up the idea of a new cycle, not just a new cycle, but a more adjusted cycle. If I see this quote in the way it is meant, or not, to me at least, it is an indicator that seers acting to bring about that impetus, would be passing judgment as something being better or worse. Yet seeing entails observing the fluctuations and motion of spirit, and then express their seeing in which ever way they see fit. So in the past we have seers that have left us with the description of the eagle, and terms like seers, naguals and left and right side awareness.
I noticed that you use the term frequency in other posts, which is not a toltec term, but one used today, and is also a term that I prefer as it describes better the idea, that beings, visuals etc. can phase in and out of a resonance energy field, that is a bubble of perception, unique to itself. 
Anyway the main reason I am posting is to ask you if you see this new more adjusted cycle manifesting?

[Archaos]

Hi Nemo!
My definitions of the attentions align with Castaneda's. But I can add to them from other perspectives.
From reading J. Krishnamurti I learned a lot about the mind/ego/tonal/first attention that helped.
The tonal is the inventory, one's knowledge, that which one has acquired and accumulated,
the PAST. This is the most significant part to me - all knowledge/known is the past. And the mind/tonal projects
the past/knowledge/known/image onto the present/silence/unknown. Everything we can think of (tonal), we search the
past/knowledge/inventory/mind/memory for. This is the basis of self-reflection and overlaying/projecting the tonal
on the nagual/present/unknown/2nd attention. This is the psychological apparition called the ego, or sense/idea of the
separate self existing independently of the nagual. The ego has no actual substance but is purely a psychological
invention based on recycled memories. Yet it is this ego/identity that we endeavor to recapitulate!
The 2nd attention is "this", whatever "this" may be - the actual present. Subsequently, if "this" is the 1st attention, the 2nd attention
is the 1st. In a purist sense, the 2nd attention is "this" minus the internal dialogue/inventory/mind/past/knowledge... it is the
virgin present, Zen beginner's mind, first time, unknown, wonder/awe. The present/2nd attention is alive/living and the
1st attention is the dead past. Realising this is the secret to using death as an advisor - the 1st attention is already dead.
It only appears alive because of the fixation of the weak face of the 2nd attention on the 1st. The 2nd attention/present/unknown
is a true dimensional change out of the box of the 1st attention. I also like to refer to a movement within the box of the 1st attention
as horizontal/linear time and a true dimensional leap into the 2nd attention vertical time. 
The 3rd attention is an equivalent dimensional shift from the 2nd to the 3rd...
1st = fixed AP position
2nd = fluid AP capable of bundling other emenations
3rd = entire luminous cocoon is AP
Now the paradox is that the 1st attention is a dream within the 2nd which is a dream within the 3rd.
Just as being in the 1st attention means "the 2nd att is IN the 1st", so too being in the 2nd means the "3rd att is IN the 2nd".
Simply translated, All (emanations) springs from the Source. Nothing exists independently. All "things" are actually relationships/energy...
a smearing of consciousness/emanations/frequencies from the Source/No-thing into matter/All/Everything via dimensional densing down
of dreams within dreams. The ego, self-reflection, is a dimension... a folding of space-time... a feat of awareness...
the 2nd attention is folded INto the 1st attention when we are "in" the 1st attention... etc.
Sorcery (with a negative connotation) may therefore be defined as further folding of the 1st attention into dreams/dimensions...
Freedom is unfolding.
So part of that paradox... I can describe 3rd attention views without being IN the 3rd attention.
Wow... this will take some more explaining/defining about stalking and dreaming.
Stalking is the step-by-step, linear, detailed, particle approach to the 2nd attention from the 1st.
Dreaming is the leaping/falling, non-linear, diffused, wave approach to the 1st attention from the 2nd OR
from the 2nd to the 3rd.
Well, the point I'm trying to get to, which is something of a paradox, is that stalking doesn't work.
What I mean by that is, stalking never really reaches the 2nd attention. The 1st and 2nd are separated
by an Hermetically sealed dimension. You can't get there from here. We can't linearly get to the Nagual's time/2nd att.
What happens is some kind of singularity, like approaching a black hole. For example, if you recapitulate enough
events, you begin to see a pattern, and suddenly the recapitulating is racing ahead of you, dyeing all the fabric
of the 1st attention without any effort, without your conscious attention; the 2nd attention has spontaneously manifested
due to the beckoning of Intent. It's an Immaculate conception by a virgin...
In the same way, the 2nd doesn't reach the 3rd. This is the paradox of dimensions/attentions. They cannot exist
independently, and yet, in a way they do. When we "move" from the 1st to the 2nd, we do so via the 3rd.
But the 3rd is unknowable - "we" don't "do" It; nor can we understand it.
So the 3rd attention... the cocoon lights up when we see the generic nature of the 2nd attention, just as we saw the 1st
and it collapsed on itself. But... "To be a man of knowledge has no permanence. One is never a man of knowledge, not really.
Rather, one becomes a man of knowledge for a very brief instant, after defeating the four natural enemies."
This is the flux. As soon as that world collapses, "we" rebuild it. Until we realise the generic nature of flux.

So to answer your question on 3rd point if I haven't - I can express 3rd point because I see, but that is not the same
as entering the 3rd attention.

I do see this new cycle manifesting. It is affecting me significantly. I see it as a source of a lot of craziness in the world for
those who are not fluid enough to roll with the force. To me, it is very important to stay present and not condition it with our
thoughts or fears or propaganda. It seems possible to me that a "rapture" (raptor/Eagle) could occur where people are vortexed
into worlds according to their frequency signature.
Thanks for helping me express all this.
I'm new here, so I don't know if this is considered off-topic and should have been posted elsewhere.
Please inform me if so - I do not mean to be inconsiderate to Littlepaw.

[nobodyz]

The first sentence of the first post is worth taking time to address.  Hello all.  How are you?

The idea i have been having recently is about freedom.  i am wondering if their is some kind of ultimate battle between slavery and Freedom.


There is absolutely a battle between slavery and freedom.


There are those who want to dominate, control, own, and have everything for themselves, while others lose everything and end up with nothing.  A huge imbalance is created.


Although it sometimes takes centuries for that imbalance to get so bad that people start to go nuts, (or grow balls, one or the other), it always happens, because in some men, there is an evil, possibly genetic, trait, that causes them to think the world should have less so that they can have more.


Balance is the way the world functions.  Things that are not in balance can not survive forever, because eventually something has to give.  In gravity, the whole thing will come tipping over.  In chemistry, there may be an explosion, or the whole mix is ruined and becomes worthless.  In nature, such as the air, when that balance is tipped, you end up with things like pollution -- leading to cancers, or oil polluting the air so the imbalance creates what they now call "global warming".


You see the initial greed of the men who now run the oil companies, and have all the power -- is now leading to destruction of the planet.
A little tiny seed that was from a bad tree -- grew into a big giant tree, and now that big giant tree is out of control, so the entire planet is suffering.  And 99.9999999% of the people, as well.


So the answer to your question is -- no.  Imbalance should not be tolerated.  Wrong should not be tolerated.   Greed should not be tolerated.  Because in the beginning, it may seem like a small thing, but it never stops growing, and a few centuries later -- look at what this country has created and allowed by it's tolerance of greed.  and love of the greedy, who are the rich.


Keep thinking.  You are right to consider these things.

[Archaos]

i am neither rich or suffering; but then i am a warrior.

actually, petty tyrants are not only tolerated, the warrior who finds a good tyrant considers him/herself fortunate. CC uses the word 'forebearance' instead of tolerance as one of 5 attributes of warriorship.

personally, i've been both positions and find the warrior's far more impeccable. placing yourself against someone else IS conflict, not resolution.

"keep thinking" is not good advice in my experience. the nature of thinking is conflict/dualism. a thought in your mind exists only as the exclusion of all other potential thought... the same principle by which greed, wrong, imbalance (and intolerance) exist... same for charity, right, balance and tolerance. everything on the tonal table has a twin which defines it. there are no solutions in the 1st attention. the first att IS the "problem"... all of it. there's no set of conditions that isn't in conflict with some other set. the solution is to go unconditioned/2nd att. but few want true solution.

[rosygyro]

Archaos wrote:i am neither rich or suffering; but then i am a warrior.
actually, petty tyrants are not only tolerated, the warrior who finds a good tyrant considers him/herself fortunate. CC uses the word 'forebearance' instead of tolerance as one of 5 attributes of warriorship.

personally, i've been both positions and find the warrior's far more impeccable. placing yourself against someone else IS conflict, not resolution.
"keep thinking" is not good advice in my experience. the nature of thinking is conflict/dualism. a thought in your mind exists only as the exclusion of all other potential thought... the same principle by which greed, wrong, imbalance (and intolerance) exist... same for charity, right, balance and tolerance. everything on the tonal table has a twin which defines it. there are no solutions in the 1st attention. the first att IS the "problem"... all of it. there's no set of conditions that isn't in conflict with some other set. the solution is to go unconditioned/2nd att. but few want true solution.You could explain it better by saying1) the traditional petty tyrant is a nagual who failed his warriorship midway through battle.2) A person who has become severed from the nagual must watch as destructive power flows out into the world around him becuase of his failure to embody life in the heat of battle!3) A warrior stalker has a tough job dealing with a petty tyrant for to do so he must STALK the agony a failed nagual embodies ad hence emotionally a petty tyrant will destroy a warrior simply through a style of forced empathy within the stalk.4) a STALKER who successfully stalks a petty tyrant must not only overcome aspects of archtypal agony in his assemblage position.. he must also PLOT areas of the petty tyrants energy body which are the reason destructive power flows unchecked.. (this is a bit like not only holding your chubby little belly in so you dont look fat, but also holding in a petty tyrants chubby little belly at the same time as if it is your own)Consequently stalkign a petty tyrant is not only madness, but undeserved madness, and also more than your fair share of hard work unless you are a dedicated warrior who has sworn his intent before the unspeakable.5)FOREBEARANCE is the art of energeticly holding in aspects of energy which do not even belong to your personal history as part of a stalking of a non-impeccable energy body!6) a petty tyrant need not even be aware of his destructive power..
afterall many people of good motive come to the warriors path.. and for
many even the act of percieving responsibly the spiritual position they
hold is too much for the conscience of many petty tyrants. This is why
spritual battle and sorcery is no good against the petty tyrant..
becuase quite simply the devastating challenge a petty tyrant poses to a
warrior is not based apon the INTENT of the petty tyrant or even the
consious mind of the petty tyrant.7) although the SORCERERS WORLD
exists.. a petty tyrant only touched it once..what remains is universal
intent forced through his being- the chips fall where they may.. AD
INFINATUM
(edit: merged 2 posts as requested)

[rosygyro]

moderator please splice this post to the preceeding post!
6) a petty tyrant need not even be aware of his destructive power.. afterall many people of good motive come to the warriors path.. and for many even the act of percieving responsibly the spiritual position they hold is too much for the conscience of many petty tyrants. This is why spritual battle and sorcery is no good against the petty tyrant.. becuase quite simply the devastating challenge a petty tyrant poses to a warrior is not based apon the INTENT of the petty tyrant or even the consious mind of the petty tyrant.7) although the SORCERERS WORLD exists.. a petty tyrant only touched it once..what remains is universal intent forced through his being- the chips fall where they may.. AD INFINATUM

[spiderlily]

rosygyro wrote:You could explain it better by saying
1) the traditional petty tyrant is a nagual who failed his warriorship midway through battle.
2) A person who has become severed from the nagual must watch as destructive power flows out into the world around him becuase of his failure to embody life in the heat of battle!
3) A warrior stalker has a tough job dealing with a petty tyrant for to do so he must STALK the agony a failed nagual embodies ad hence emotionally a petty tyrant will destroy a warrior simply through a style of forced empathy within the stalk.
4) a STALKER who successfully stalks a petty tyrant must not only overcome aspects of archtypal agony in his assemblage position.. he must also PLOT areas of the petty tyrants energy body which are the reason destructive power flows unchecked.. (this is a bit like not only holding your chubby little belly in so you dont look fat, but also holding in a petty tyrants chubby little belly at the same time as if it is your own)
Consequently stalkign a petty tyrant is not only madness, but undeserved madness, and also more than your fair share of hard work unless you are a dedicated warrior who has sworn his intent before the unspeakable.
5)FOREBEARANCE is the art of energeticly holding in aspects of energy which do not even belong to your personal history as part of a stalking of a non-impeccable energy body!
6) a petty tyrant need not even be aware of his destructive power..
afterall many people of good motive come to the warriors path.. and for
many even the act of percieving responsibly the spiritual position they
hold is too much for the conscience of many petty tyrants. This is why
spritual battle and sorcery is no good against the petty tyrant..
becuase quite simply the devastating challenge a petty tyrant poses to a
warrior is not based apon the INTENT of the petty tyrant or even the
consious mind of the petty tyrant.
7) although the SORCERERS WORLD
exists.. a petty tyrant only touched it once..what remains is universal
intent forced through his being- the chips fall where they may.. AD
INFINATUM

(edit: merged 2 posts as requested)
 
I love this post, rosyg. 
Thanks for explaining all of this so concisely. 
Especially think #6 is important to read and remember.

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