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From a very brief view of discussions on internet forums i see that many great threads quickly degenerate into comparions of opinions. One person start comparing their classification system with another. They then lock horns and start comparing reflections of their genital weights.
Reading the emotions behind the words of many discussions what i witness is this;
'with my piercing awareness i will crush your weak misguided ideas into a smouldering whimpering heap of debris then dance a war chant over your grave, then you'll accept mine fool because only i am right.' The chest beating inherited from our ape ancestry then continues until the next banana turns up in our awareness.
Its very easy to fall foul of self deception trying to learn sorcery. The special words we have tried to learn are too slippery to nail to a dictionary.The concepts too are just, well how can i put it, beyond reason i guess. Looking back at several times in my life the langauge of sorcery was all i had left of real personal value. They were my prizes. The strange thing is now when i find i really want to communicate with people about this stuff i have to drop those prizes.
Admission time, I took part in an online cleergreen workshop the other day. One of the things that struck me was when some chick whose name i should know but dont said that 'listening' is one great way to a magical state of awareness. 'Just listen', she said. That pierced me. I even managed to stop thinking she was a fraud for a while. Really moved me that did. Cost me 30 bucks but it did move me.
It is very easy to get sucked into a semantic debates on forums with some very long words, quotes, counter arguments etc. Personally i am ignornt of how to use the quote feature on forums therefore i am easy pickings. Write anything overly long and you will likely bore me into agreeing with you. Im just one of those people who really whose opinions are built on sand. If yours are rocksteady great, just hold there while i slip into them with you.
Somedays i even have the misguided idea that i may be losing my human form. If reading this really pisses you off please feel free to point out why i am wrong. I will probably agree with you after a very short period of time.
So as a countermeasure to all this talk of arguing i will now channel the magical being 'Nagual Loosehand Mate Us' and suggest that what we really need here on the forums is a little bit of a love injection. With a small amout of love injected into us we suddenly find ourselves able to listen to other people, and thats it really. Just listen.
Ok group hug everyone, 'Mate us' over and out.
That'll be 100 bucks please.
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"That'll be 100 bucks please. "
No way man, you'll just have to take a smile.
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Yeah, ya know all that might be needed is some love injection. That’s a nice mamby pamby approach to all the disagreement. I like it.
Although I find it really difficult to care what others have to say … I know I know … that sounds bad. But how serious can we take ourselves when we’re interacting with people who we solely know from the vast world wide web? If people agree with me, AWESOME. If they don’t, AWESOME. Yes I do take some people seriously, those who take the time to form coherent and thoughtful responses, as rare as those are.
What it comes down to though is how can some people argue with people they barely know? Online or not… if you haven’t had a couple personal conversations with someone, who gives a rip if they think you’re a moron. Everyone has a right to their opinion.. and I have a right whether or not I’ll listen to their opinion (haha).
My fool proof way to remain fool proof (heh) is to simply watch the behavior of an individual over a certain span of time. Are their actions consistent with their words? Are they wishy washy? Those all give me good predictors of what to expect … and I try my damnest to stay clear of certain types. Doesn’t always work though
I agree though, sometimes it’s easier to just fake it (it being an agreeance). It’s not always worth the effort to argue.
You're working probono here, guess you missed the notice.
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Well as for myself i got obsessed with the Castaneda books way way back. Got it really bad in fact. My being here is just an admission to myself that i would really love to talk about that world more. You know share stuff, more than talking.
I have tried sharing this stuff with friends and neighbours. Their eyes just glaze over, their faces make strange shapes. Any communication dies pretty quickly. So here it was, and still is, my hope to finally be with other people who get what 'my trip' is really about. Yeah its a shame were all over the world but hell this is way better than nothing. Also the restriction imposed on us by geographic distance is really just opportunity to be inventive with the resources we have availiable. I mean other than dreaming at night, how can we do sorcery when awake with people who are so far away? Its an honest and open question.
Lastly i dont fake my agreeing. I fall hook line and sinker. Genuinely gone into the other person. It makes me more cautious about who i interact with though. I'm easily pulled around. Its a gift and a curse.
Other than that i agree with everything you say.
In fact now i am aware of the notice you pointed out i will have to give up my idea of running 'love intensives' in Costa Rica.
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Costa Rica? I heard Hawaii is nicer. Beach living is free anyhow.
See, now I'm curious ... what is it about other people and environments which pull you in so easily? You appear decently intelligent, quite educated, and a tad realisitc. I find it difficult to understand how you allow yourself to be so easily pulled around. I'd be all ears if you expanded on that.
Yeah, does seem like the opportunities to communicate this 'trip' to others in the real world are difficult to come by. It's just so frustrating weeding through ... the swamp online.
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i understand what seesaw is talking about here. the story of my life, lol. it makes me confused at times but i hear it is a good thing. might have to do with being able to look through the position of others and/or can easily happen when one
has no specific position to defend. i am learning how to hold the ground i find most beneficial at a given moment but be fluid and change as it changes. not be 'persuaded' too much.
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Hi all,
Good topic seesaw,
A lot of what you say sounds like me. Why I'm here, sharing and having someone to talk to. Listening to inspiration that comes to me when posting and when others are posting.
I just woke up and was thinking of forks in the road. The bible are full of them. Two brothers born, one is blessed and recieves inheritance and the other doesn't. Allegories for us to show us the Path and the consequences of our choices.
Don Juan said that would not like to be caught up in the second attention for anything in the world. It is such a vast realm that one gets easily trapped.
There are forks in the road we must avoid and the vastness of the first attention and the forks in the road are just as numerous.
We get caught up in anger and gossip and science and logic and holding grudges etc., etc.
These all are forks in the road that people take and never seem to be able to find there way back to the Path.
Jesus said he was The Way. Ignore the forks that lead in the wrong directions or spend our lives wandering the realms of the first or second attention.
Stay the course. Follow the yellow brick road. Keep our eye on the prize that is Home. (Not Kansas.)
At the end Jesus said "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." To really take that mind-set to heart is to avoid the forks in the road.
Don Juan said "No one is doing anything to anyone."
Bob
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To make things clearer, the smile I gave was one of appreciation for what you said and a laugh at your humorous description of some internet discussions only I imagine our ape ancestors got over their chest beating sessions quicker than we do, something about domestication + identifying with an identity turns natural regulating mechanisms into overblown and often way more dangerous dramas. Also, when I think about my death I know I will be most grateful for all the smiles I have seen and/or received and won't give a lick for a hundred pieces of paper or one piece of paper called one hundred. You may or may not agree with me in that regard.
I see the potential for sites such as this to become hosts of Magick and spaces of love but I think in order to do so more successfully more people would need to accept the fact that likelier than not they have some tonal flaws as do others and be a little more giving when it comes to forgiveness and foregoing of perceived insults. ignorance, and other such apparent flaws. I can tell you that once you have been perceived to "****" by key persons on sites like this it can be hard to come back to them in a real and meaningful way after having become pigeon holed. If you can't give another person the open space to transform then you probably aren't giving yourself that space either.
So that would be one advice towards making the site more conducive of transformation and magic in a meaningful way.
I also want to note that I am not claiming that I am above the chest beating dramas though I am finding after taking breaks from sites like this for a bit and recapping my time at them I am more unattached and ready to see what happens.
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I found this well thought article on the subject, the author calls it "online road rage".
http://www.zaporacle.com/...ding-online-road-rage-2/
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FWIW, Lunoor, I am always happy to read your posts and you comment back on mine. I enjoy your presence here. I sense you do not refer to me in above post (if so you can let me know), due to our interactions all being positive...not at the very beginning but soon after and since then we've been forum friends. I feel Wolf is happy to have you here too. So I just wanted to say your presence is welcome here, my feeling on it.
Yes I agree people can get pigeon holed. I see it happen all the time, at work and in tonal situations many many times over and over. Its not always the person's fault and it can be herd mentality. Once the herd begins to chatter, its hard to break the spell. Gossip is very powerful. Its everywhere too, no only on forums. In fact, perhaps worst at work where tensions can run high. There is another type of petty tyrant, its not a single human, but the group dynamics, that can be the tyrant to be dealt with...appearances, perceptions shared collectively.
But the funny thing about a group in such a way, each person is still a separate entity within the herd and thus free to change their mind/opinion given new information which effects the group dynamic by inserting doubt into the group belief structure.
But I have faith its possible to have a group of positive intending sorcerers. The opposite of FI-driven situations. Can that happen on a public forum? hmmmm well its a bit too much to ask, I think, due to people living all over the world with access to internet will do as they want and it really really varies from person to person how one perceives things. But a committed group of a few is very very possible. But some may fear or anticipate cultish behavior then...well, I see this occur too. But I believe so strongly in the nagual link as the sole guiding force for a group, which is outside all these descriptions, I say.
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Ravenmoon, I like what you day here:
"But the funny thing about a group in such a way, each person is still a separate entity within the herd and thus free to change their mind/opinion given new information which effects the group dynamic by inserting doubt into the group belief structure."
and here:
"..the nagual link as the sole guiding force for a group, which is outside all these descriptions, I say."
My intent though, wasn't to point anyone out publicly or claim I am a victim, I have pigeon-holed people at certain times and felt competitive and sundry socially awkward gafs and overly self conscious miss takes myself . I haven't been one to gossip much and I am grateful for that. I just wanted to point out that in order for people to work in a meaningful and fruitful way they have to give space to others, the same kind of space they need in order to take a ruthless look at themselves. In my experience, you can't look ruthlessly without compassion and compassion is space, the space to be as you are in that moment, it's hard to own up to ones ass but it is often the only place to leap from and all progress by lies is lies. I am also not saying don't ever call someone on their **** but it behooves one to mind one's own **** best.
I am not demanding rules but giving food for thought and consideration from my own experience and observations of online forums, others, and myself in them.
The Johnathon Zap article I linked led me to examine the ways I have attempted to communicate , especially in my more poetic mode that is often self-referential and not always clear to others. I don't agree with all the reasons zap provided for a person to behave in that manner but some of it struck home. I am not going to say I wont go into poetic frenzies in threads ever again but I plan to be more thoughtful about it and take more time before hitting "post".
Nah, Ravenmoon you have been very welcoming to me despite my gafs and I thank you. Lol, it took me a bit of detective work to figure out who you were since your name change. I think that is a good thing, starting from zero is nice.
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Ha zero, good reference...I'll take it...felt a kinship to that number lately. Glad your detective work found me...must have been in introductions...
Yes, being poetic is something I do too, mix things, blend communication with art and what not. This forum goes through different stages with each moderator/s...to zero and up then back to zero again...so to me its like surfing the energy patterns.
Glad you're here...maybe we can do some more poetry in Tone? You zeroed (lol, milk that non-number Tiff) in on my two most relavent parts of my post above...for me too..in what you quoted me on.
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Yes I found you in the intros forum.
Cool Ravenmon, I like how you describe surfing on energy patterns, I think that's a good analogy.
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I wanted to write a little more on affection on this thread. I am currently full of feelings and today this forum is my outlet.
My experiences with the world have sorcery have been harsh at times. I have no teacher to hold my hand no one to put me back together when it all goes wrong. Here i am amongst people who are have gone through similar, or are struggling with things i have also faced.
Pointing out the flaws of others is easy, we often fall into this role and somewhat mistakenly feel we are great ruthless sorcerers helping shatter the reflections of others. Speaking for myself often i have longed for just some form of support, a kind word, helping hand, advice understanding, or just someone to listen without telling what to do or explaining.
Recently i have come to appreciate that some of the people i meet here are perhaps closer to me than my family. In a strange way some of you are my only real family and when i think of what i would do for you, i don't actually know the limit. This is just the expression of the feeling i have. Its fragile and delicate. Its the sort of feeling that can carry me across anything. Its not beyond being stung , but i know if it is wounded i will just get back up again and do the same. Thats my feeling today.
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Good to hear Seesaw, as this place was created for such type connecting between those on the path. These days I know no one in my personal life who would know what the word "Nagual" even means. The teachings have been repressed in all the countries of the world. CC resisted media attention and in the end it went away. It is a world wide effort to ignore and suppress the teachings of Don Juan and most prevalent in Mexico.
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Got your email a couple of months ago. Hope your back is better.
Warmest regards,
Lujan.
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Surprisingly enough, that is usually all people are buying at those things anyways...love. What is strange, at least in my opinion, is that anything so necessary has been regulated and denied so long that people will pay to get some kindness. As you write, many times in these internet forums, love is the farthest thing from participants minds. Good on you for noticing and wishing to inject some here...love is something we can all use more of...good on you.
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Lujan it is good to hear from you.I am doing much better but admit this year so far has been one of my worst years in my life. Thank you for dropping by.
As for this thread...love can encompass all life has to offer and thus makes living more intense, sweeter and yes painful to extremes.
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Love...what is love? Desire? Kinship? Family? Not being alone? Makes you feel good? Fuzzy smiles? Kisses...release....power?
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Love = to have a sex..
Dont take it wrong )
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Non-judgmental acceptance of your place in the universe.....a desire to connect to the spirit. Kindness and respect for others even if you can not convince them of anything. A path with heart.
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yes, you have mentioned the raison de etre of the nagual associations.. a nagual party. you must really associate together as it has no meaning to go there alone.
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The problem is that nobody is really interested so you must create it.. create it together !
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scout1 wrote:Love = to have a sex..
Dont take it wrong )
They call that making love. What is felt is energy, so you may not be far off. Is energy love? When we are happy don't we feel rush of energy, or when we care or want to protect, don't we feel strong and energized? Some examples.
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Yes, Kris or Dan has defined it as to taking care of energy (taking care of your soul) instead of preoccupation with your ego.
Ego is the little devil People let the ego consume them alive.
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