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exegesis |ˌeksiˈjēsis|
noun ( pl. -ses |-sēz|)
critical explanation or interpretation of a text, esp. of scripture : the task of biblical exegesis | an exegesis of Marx.
The terms exegesis and hermeneutics are sometimes used interchangeably because exegesis focuses primarily on the written text. Hermeneutics however is a more widely defined discipline of interpretation theory including the entire framework of the interpretive process and, encompassing all forms of communication and expression; written, verbal, artistic, geo-political, physiological, sociological etc.
When examining a text such as those found in Castaneda’s work I focus more on the exegesis. This is a discipline. I try to understand the author’s meaning and the audience for which it is intended, while bearing in mind that I cannot be purely objective in this and bring to this my own bias. It is my own bias that I try to minimize at least until I think I have understood what the author intended to communicate.
We have heard it said in the bible that Jesus said to his disciples, “Take up your cross and follow me.” Now Christians today usually insist on interpreting this through the lens of Christianity today. The cross is seen as symbolic, usually a symbol of transformation of death and rebirth.
But when we look at the context, times etc in which Jesus supposedly uttered these words, they had a narrower meaning. Everyone hearing these words as they were spoken knew what cross Jesus was referring to. It was not symbolic. It was the Roman form of capital punishment and the means by which Rome expressed its dominion and neatly disposed of any that might challenge of even seem to challenge that dominion by publicly humiliating them and putting them to death for all to see. The implication is not mystical but more like, “Take up your electric chair and follow me!” Totally different meaning. The symbolic meaning preferred by Christianity today has little if anything to do with Jesus’s original intent.
It is not easy, trying to recover the context of a conversation between DJ and CC. But that is what I have been trying to do. It takes time.
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Got it! You want to continue this thread but you want to be the only one doing the talking. Jessicar
Jessicar, If that is what you think you have got you are mistaken.
I will try again. If I was to start a thread about Football and then go on to give my understanding about this game and encourage others to discuss this also, then that is one thing.
Then if you were to enter the dialogue and start discussing Tennis and think we are talking about the same thing because tennis happens to also be a sport, then that would be another thing. Yes it is true they are both sports, they both have balls (lol).
Now if I was to point out to you we are talking about different things and discussing tennis in this manner is not helping us understand football and how to play it say. If at that point you take offense or feel I am being tyrannical or narrow minded because in this thread I do not want to focus on tennis or sport in general, I would say why not start a tennis thread and discuss that. there. If you have anything to add to the topic of football that can help us understand it, great. And even within that topic there is room for disagreement.
I not sure what you hope to accomplish by insisting on characterizing me in these ways and it doesn’t hurt my feelings, well maybe a little bit, sob, sob. But it’s distracting.
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I was researching Castaneda yesterday, trying to find more interviews with him speaking and sharing golden kernels of knowledge that he has expounded on since the writings of his( then current ) books. This interview was in 1985. It truly paints the inside and human side of CC's personality and also the intentionality of his books with more explanation on DJ and Genero's hard to grasp teachings. I prefer hearing it straight from the writers mouth after the books are written out to help clarify the expressions and intentions of the written book. But we know book signings and lectures are not easily available today. So I search to find hidden value and meaning betwixt the words that CC had spoken outside the context of his books.
In this in depth interview, CC mentions his admiration of the German philosopher , mathematician ~Edmundo Husserl. CC was speaking to the interviewer of ... " bringing learning to discover and destroy the perceptive prejudice.Suspended judgment was Husserl contribution in the field of phenomenology.
What sustains our ordinary perception?? This lead me to believe that the Sorcerer's Expanation is an ongoing explanation until the bubble of perception has been burst one time. Is this like "within the twinkling of an eye" - the rupture of our bubble of perception?
Here is part of the interview with Castaneda from 1985
CC considers that phenomenology offers him the theoretical methodological framework to comprehend the teaching of DJ. For phenomenology, the act of knowing depends on intention and not on perception.
Perception always varies according to history, that is to say, according to the subject with knowledge acquired and immersed in a determined tradition. The most important rule of the phenomenological method is that of toward the same things.
* Personally here, I sense CC is expressing more follow-up on the continuum of the Sorcerer's' Explanation.
* The task with which DJ fulfilled me, he insisted, was that of breaking, little by little,the perceptive prejudices until arriving at a total rupture. (not rapture but close, lol) Rupture phenomenology suspends judgement and is limited to the description of pure intentional acts. So, for example, I construct the object "house". The phenomenological reference is minimal. The "intention" is what transforms reference into something concrete and singular.
Phenomenology, without a doubt, has, for CC, a simple methodological value. Husserl never transcended the theoretical and, as a consequence, he didn't touch the human being in his life in all his days. For CC, the most western man -the European man - has arrived to is the political man. This political man would be the epitome of our civilization. DJ, he said, with his teaching is opening the door for another much more interesting man: a man who still lives in a magical world or universe.
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Yes, Lex, this explanation helps me to understand your
viewpoint in a clearer manner. I
responded to your PM—I’m available to speak with you via Skype at any time
convenient for you.
Until then, I will respond to your comments here. Since this is not your intention (to
speak with me about tennis when you want to be talking football) I will respond
here with an analogy of my own and then I will let it go. Since this is not what you want to be
discussing, please don’t feel you need to respond, but at this point I want to
round out my perspective---despite you calling it “distracting”---for myself
here in this public setting as that is where I started it to begin with.
Picture two (or more) people staring at a map. They are intent on understanding the
figures and signs on the map as an exercise to gain clarity for their
journey. They are searching
for a treasure in true pirate mode.
Meanwhile, there are pirates close by, within eyesight of those studying
the map. They’ve opened the very
same treasure chest found on the map with a large “X” and they are taking out
the priceless gems found inside!
The map-studiers are entirely engrossed with the map and miss that
they’re within arms length of the treasure they seek.
Those that have found the treasure cry out to those studying
the map, “Here it is!” Those studying the map rebuke them,
“Quiet! We’re looking for
treasure!”
I’m sure both of us could present any number of analogies to
support our POV---and they would all be good ones from our individual perspectives.
Here’s another one from my perspective:
Picture an object---let’s say it is a bubble. You are standing at the north end of
the bubble exclaiming about its properties looking forward to arriving at it. I am standing at the south end of the
bubble exclaiming about its properties as I look back at it. There is value in both directions. The danger in looking ahead at the
bubble is in never actually arriving at it, always seeking via description and
explanation; the danger in looking back at the bubble is to minimize its
impact; “Oh that! Yeah, saw
it.”
You are saying:
This fascinates me!
Don’t you agree this is fascinating? Let’s study this.
We need to pull this apart and study it carefully. It holds secrets of great value that we
need to know.
I’m saying:
Be careful not to stare at it too closely. Detail traps! Look a bit off center, it’s easier to see what you’re
looking for that way.
Exegesis is culturally bound and keeps the seeker within the
bounds of their own worldview. And
there’s a real danger in not being able to break the bounds of our own
worldview. There is such a desire
to map out that worldview---it’s tantalizing! It’s the “staring” that I’m talking about.
It sounds as though I’m saying two opposing things, and I
am! (Earlier I said: Staring at the Sorcerer’s Explanation as a means of
understanding it is a trap---and yet,
it isn’t----and that’s the mystery,
the nagual.) There is also the North view and
there is the South view, to complicate matters. (Lord
help us when East and West speak up! lol) The paradoxes within sorcery/nagualism
are evident although that doesn’t make them any less maddening!
This is how we can “resolve” our differences, Lex. You’ve stated clearly that you want to
do “exegesis”. I’ve stated clearly
the danger in doing so. It’s now a
matter of “Buyer beware!” Every person will decide where to invest his or her energy.
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Lex Silentino sense of humor lies within that analogy of the map. All prepared and ready for the hunt with all the maps nessecary to lead him to the pearl-even has a golden toothpick. Till he puts the map down and suddenly the "pearl" falls right in front of his foot.
Sorry I don't have skype. But make a better effort in directing the flow of your threads. I know how hard it is to really relate and stay in touch when someone's perception of words doesn't seem to be on the same page as your own.. This is part of learning suspended judgement when CC was referring to Husserl.
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Kind of like looking at the stars. Easier to see them when you look slighttly off to the side but when you look directly at one, it disappears.
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ghostdream wrote:
Kind of like looking at the stars. Easier to see them when you look slighttly off to the side but when you look directly at one, it disappears.hi ghostdream,
why do you suppose it's like that?
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THE TEACHING ON THE SWORD
Rain clouds drift through the sky, but there is no rain today, only heat and more heat. You are irritable as you walk down the road toward Jerusalem. Your brothers and sisters walk ahead of you. You lag swatting at flies, grumbling to yourself because you want nothing more than to go to sleep in the shade of an olive tree until night comes. But he will not allow it. You have finally escaped the crowds, and he says you must rush on. You hear his voice, teaching , as always...but can't make out most of the words until he calls:
"Did you hear that, brothers?" Yeshu stops and turns around to look straight at you.
You squint against the glare to see him. His black hair halos his face in tight , sweat-drenched curls. The sun beats down upon your head like a fiery hammer.
"No. I'm too far behind. What did you say?"
"We were talking about the art of being truly present with God."
The disciples gather around him in a milling circle, listening.
They can tell by the tone of voice that this is another lesson, and they want to hear it.
Unlike you. You just want to get a cold drink of water.
As he needs you to, you say, "That sounds ridiculous. Am I not always present with God? How could I be otherwise, for you have told us that God is everywhere, all the time."
He suppresses a smile. It's his way of thanking you for asking the questions no one else will. You are his acknowledged adversary, and he both resents and cherishes it.
Yeshu says, "I think, in fact, that people are almost never present with God. They are thinking about the past or the future, worried about what their enemies are doing, or worse, what their friends are plotting. But rarely do they live truly Now. And that is where God live."
You flap your arms in exasperation, "Very fascinating, but I don't see what that has to do with the art of the sword."
He cuts the air with his hand, as though swinging an invisible sword. "The sword has a living heart. It beats. It listens. It strikes. But the blow is only lethal when the swordsman acts in an instant of utter awareness of the cause of life and death."
You glance around at the disciples. They look as mystified as you do. Poor Matya, his young face is screwed up in total confusion.
"Truly," you say, "I hate your parables. They are utter nonsense. I wish you would speak straightly."
He tilts his head, and smiles. "I mean that it is only when you are fully present with another that you can know him, or love him."
"Or 'it' in the case of a sword."
"Yes. Very good, brother, I knew you would understand."
He smiles broadly, turns, and heads up the road again.
The disciples fall into line behind him, their sandals kicking up puffs of tan dust. You, alone, remain standing,grimacing at his back.
It takes several moments before you realize he means "... or in the case of God."
You shake your head, annoyed that it was meant specifically for you, and run to catch up.
The Betrayal page 34, 35
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Aren't we discussing the difference between the female and the male approach to understanding something? That is, an analytical approach versus an intuitive one? In this instance I doubt the two will have any correspondence.
The primary problem with the intuitive approach is that too often those who take that approach claim their findings are incapable of being put into words with the excuse that one must experience the thing, then they will "know". I prefer to look directly at what don Juan was doing and teaching. It either stands up to scrutiny, or it doesn't.
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Gonzo wrote:Aren't we discussing the difference between the female and the male approach to understanding something? That is, an analytical approach versus an intuitive one? In this instance I doubt the two will have any correspondence.
The primary problem with the intuitive approach is that too often those who take that approach claim their findings are incapable of being put into words with the excuse that one must experience the thing, then they will "know". I prefer to look directly at what don Juan was doing and teaching. It either stands up to scrutiny, or it doesn't.
Well, aren't we putting stuff into little neat boxes? I am female and I love looking at what is written, closely, and scrutinize the sentences/words in detail. I love to scrutinize stuff. I am also aware what I am doing when I am doing it and that it is also a kind of game. I turn stuff this way and that way and see what all makes perfect sense together and what not. I was asked by my literature teacher if I did not want to be a lawyer?
Anyway, still after having done all that one needs to take a step back. And look at it from the big picture of one's knowing. Sometimes this is the best way to do stuff. Start small and then take a step back, see the big picture. The pig picture can also be looked at by an analytical approach. And the scrutinizing can be done by an intuitive one. So there you go..
If you go the other way round, start big and go small you are trying to find the big in the small, meaning you are looking for what you understand already, in there. If you start small and turn big, then you start with the specific small world, as what Lex wants, and then link it to your general knowledge and see how it all fits.
Basically we all have our own versions of the big world, or our own vocabulary to describe it, our own specific experiences that led us there. So we cannot that well go from big to small together. But DJ/CCs world has DJ/CCs vocabulary and DJ/CCs experiences, therefore here we are all more or less on the same page. Although we do interpret stuff to some extent through our own, can't be helped. But it is potentially much more helpful for the group as a whole if we make sense of the text, theories, whatever presented in the books cause then we can all connect it to our own big picture individually and then come back and share that again. At least in theory.
It is nice to keep the intent of the thread clear but I also understand that people might feel it too controlled if they want to share something of value (because we all connect it to the big picture as we read kind of naturally, because we want to have practical results, and then we have results we want to share) and not find the place to do it there because of that, because of the focus on the small. But what can one say there, it is Lex's thread if he wishes to control it thus I think he has a right to voice it. And then there is the demand of the site as well. If Lex goes against what most people look for/ want then he will be alone in that thread , or his thread will be highjacked . Personally I like what he is doing, so I keep my fingers crossed for some great results (but I also don't mind if people say what they think from their bigger perspectives, they just need to keep it concise)
Those were my thoughts on this subject..
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Gonzo wrote:
Aren't we discussing the difference between the female and the male approach to understanding something? That is, an analytical approach versus an intuitive one? In this instance I doubt the two will have any correspondence.
The primary problem with the intuitive approach is that too often those who take that approach claim their findings are incapable of being put into words with the excuse that one must experience the thing, then they will "know". I prefer to look directly at what don Juan was doing and teaching. It either stands up to scrutiny, or it doesn't.that is way to look at this. It probably gets down to the right brain ( nagual) left brain ( tonal) dominance in a person. I do agree it takes a longer time to exagerate by talking on what you intuitevly already know than to just act its intent. I usually understand the whole story within the first five minutes. As long as one is inabled to see the beginning from the end or the end from the beginning the analytical approach will stay alongside the intuitive approach.
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Jessicar,
I just saw this response of yours here. I did not hear from you on Skype??
All I can say is I am not really that interested in my point of view concerning the Sorcerer's Explanation. I am interested in DJ's point of view. I believe it is very complex and difficult to arrive at. I got very excited as I presented this because it felt like I was finally beginning to understand what he was getting at. And for me at least what HE is getting at is very different (and not the same) as what is being presented in most forums like this. It is this difference that I have tried to draw attention to, despite the attempts to blur the lines.
When DJ's says he deviates or varies from his own tradition, I see this of great significance. It is something that eluded me (as I know it does others whether others care to admit it or not). It eluded me because the context was missing, or at least sketchy. The context is essential. It is connected to the preparation involved if the Sorcerer's Explanation is to deliver its "lethal blow" effectively. The thread still had a ways to go. We never got to what we thought DJ meant by this "lethal blow", what it means to receive such a blow, its impact etc. (We are not talking about the pat on the back here, impact between the shoulder blades). But you see if one is not even interested in why DJ varies from his tradition to begin with, then all this talk about blows etc is useless. One thing I would like to make clear is I am not offering a Sorcerer's Explanation.
For those that were, or are invested in the tradition of which DJ is a nagual (and chief spokes-person to date) it does not help when that person, DJ, now says he "varies" from that tradition, and points out that he was not teaching sorcery, as CC (and pretty much all of us) had believed, but that it had been a trick, a didactic device. That is the dilemma for those still invested in that tradition. They must either divest themselves in the way DJ was pointing to (which I barely touched upon) or blur what he was saying in order to reclaim him as one of their own and deflect commentaries such as this that aim to at least bring out the discrepancy of him "varying from his tradition".
Now for those who do not see this as significant, or consciously recognize the dilemma, then the blow will have no impact. Continue with your lives and pardon the interruption. lol.
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DJ came from a background of Catholic tradition. DJ often mentions the "church"themes inside Castanedár's books. Why inside the church does the DD decide to show? why does Julian almost feel like he is raptured into heaven for an hour or so before his evil and egotistical self gets saved by the nagual Elias? Why was DJ quite particular with the DD's origins arriving and hidden inside the confines of a church in the year1723 when Sebastien is first introduced to the DD. Did anyone think that DJ might have already figured Carlos had the same birth date that was designated to prior ancient pagan idol worship gods. Why were CC's configurations, seen by DJ, as being a 3 -pronged more peculiar type needed for our modern time.
I am sure CC was very selective with his choice of word description and development as he by penned out his books. He was a master of intent!
But the fearful, and unbelieving , and the abominable, and murderers. and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 8: 21
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Lex, Come again?
so far you have ignored all my advances especially about Bhaji or the arrival of the Death Defier in 1723. Could there be a rebellion in Spain or was it in Mexico in 1723? Are there any history buffs out there?
This is getting awfully redundant
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those questions i referred to in the above post . , are pretty near explained in this here article . . http://wanderling.tripod.com/death_defier.html
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Although this song was written apparently after an acid trip sometime in the late 60's, when heard in sobriety these lyrics have truth and wisdom encoded in them. A timeless message prevails from just beyond the escapism of the herd mentality.
http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwQYSdxJ7ug
Some 3rd Attention wisdom found in the sobriety of 1st attention awareness.
..."I 'll wait in the queue when the trains come back; Lie with you where the shadows run from themselves"...
Never heard those real lyrics till today.
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ninth octave wrote:
Although this song was written apparently after an acid trip sometime in the late 60's, when heard in sobriety these lyrics have truth and wisdom encoded in them. A timeless message prevails from just beyond the escapism of the herd mentality.
http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwQYSdxJ7ug
Some 3rd Attention wisdom found in the sobriety of 1st attention awareness.
..."I 'll wait in the queue when the trains come back; Lie with you where the shadows run from themselves"...
Never heard those real lyrics till today.
* Correction here: Song w/lyric ... wQYSdxJ7ug
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Lex Silentio wrote:
Jessicar,
I just saw this response of yours here. I did not hear from you on Skype??
All I can say is I am not really that interested in my point of view concerning the Sorcerer's Explanation. I am interested in DJ's point of view. I believe it is very complex and difficult to arrive at. I got very excited as I presented this because it felt like I was finally beginning to understand what he was getting at. And for me at least what HE is getting at is very different (and not the same) as what is being presented in most forums like this. It is this difference that I have tried to draw attention to, despite the attempts to blur the lines.
When DJ's says he deviates or varies from his own tradition, I see this of great significance. It is something that eluded me (as I know it does others whether others care to admit it or not). It eluded me because the context was missing, or at least sketchy. The context is essential. It is connected to the preparation involved if the Sorcerer's Explanation is to deliver its "lethal blow" effectively. The thread still had a ways to go. We never got to what we thought DJ meant by this "lethal blow", what it means to receive such a blow, its impact etc. (We are not talking about the pat on the back here, impact between the shoulder blades). But you see if one is not even interested in why DJ varies from his tradition to begin with, then all this talk about blows etc is useless. One thing I would like to make clear is I am not offering a Sorcerer's Explanation.
Now for those who do not see this as significant, or consciously recognize the dilemma, then the blow will have no impact. Continue with your lives and pardon the interruption. lol.
Hi Lex and all,
You had an experience that we discussed. It seemed to match an experience that I had. I have a question that is very specific and just came to mind while reading your description of the "lethal blow." I have never related this before but when I experienced what I call stopping the world I was sitting with some "friends" around a table and I was beginning to go into another world so to speak. Everything was changing including their faces and their "inner faces" were being revealed to me. Language came to have no meaning and everything around me began to "come apart" as if turning to fog and disintegrating along geometric lines.
At a specific moment, I heard and felt a very loud pop or crack at the base of my skull in my brainstem. It was very loud to the point that I would have thought that those in the room must have heard it also, but did not ask. It felt like something actually broke.) I tried to speak but words had no meaning and the only thing I could voice was the word No before words lost all meaning.
I knew, at that moment that I was not "coming down", (back to normal) the next day. That proved to be true, and I was caught up in something other than normal for about 6 weeks to two months from that moment. I have experienced that "pop" a few other times in my life since then, coupled with other phenomena, but nothing of the magnitude of that first time.
In the Qabala it is said that the "invisible" Sephirah of Daath confers Knowledge of a completely different being. This Sephirah, when applying the Tree of Life to the microcosm, (our bodies) would be placed at the nape of the neck.
I wonder if you (Lex) had experienced the same thing when you experienced what you experienced or at any other time. And I am also wondering if this might relate to that "Sorcerer's blow" or "lethal blow" Carlos wrote about.
Also if anyone else had experienced a similar thing.
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Hi Bob, I can only say this crack at the base of the skull is something I also experienced. I was just lying still in my bed during the day doing nothing and this just happened. It was so loud I actually had the thought that maybe my spine got broken. I actually thought I might not be able to move after hearing it. So I kind of was afraid to try. But I did not break anything.. uff.. It was quite a shock.
I remember CC also heard/experienced this, but I do not remember what it was connected to.
For me it did not come with any experience of great magnitude. But it was a really loud crak/pop.
So, as such I'd say this crack could just be among the accompanying phenomena of some change or shift of AP/perception/looking or not looking at the world/stopping or partial stopping of the world. For you it was more obvious and longer, for me just a slight one. I do not know.. just wanted to say it happens even when it is not such a big thing as you describe..
edit: I see you edited a bit when I was not looking and added
Bob wrote:I have experienced that "pop" a few other times in my life since then, coupled with other phenomena, but nothing of the magnitude of that first time.
Ah well, am gonna do a search through "the books" to see what I get. I am sure CC mentioned this..
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First I put the explanations, then the experiences (if they do not come together). But they are talking about a crack at the base of the neck, not base of the skull, or behind the windpipe.. Behind the windpipe could still apply.. At the back of your neck does apply.
In my case it was just under the skull, at the back of the neck..
2nd Ring of Power wrote:The peculiar sound at the base of my neck was something I had become keenly aware of. Don Juan had described it as the sound one makes at the moment of changing speed. I had the faint recollection of having experienced it in his company. Although I had become aware of it the previous night, I had not fully acknowledged it until it happened with Rosa. I realized then that the sound had created a special sensation of heat on the roof of my mouth and inside my ears. The force and dryness of the sound made me think of the peal of a large, cracked bell.
2nd Ring of Power wrote:Under the impact of dona Soledad and the little sisters' actions, my body had suspended judgment; I had, in don Juan's terms, stopped the world. I had amalgamated two disassociated sensations. The ticklishness on the very top of my head and the dry cracking sound at the base of my neck: between them lay the means to that suspension of judgment.
As I sat in my car with those two girls, on the side of a deserted mountain road, I knew for a fact that for the first
time I had had a complete awareness of stopping the world. That feeling brought to my mind the memory of another,
similar, first-time bodily awareness I had had years before. It had to do with the ticklishness on top of the head. Don Juan
said that sorcerers had to cultivate such a sensation and he described it at great length. According to him, it was a sort of
itching, which was neither pleasurable nor painful, and which occurred on the very top of one's head. In order to make me
aware of it, on an intellectual level, he described and analyzed its features and then, on the practical side, he attempted to
guide me in developing the necessary bodily awareness and memory of this feeling by making me run under branches or
rocks that protruded on a horizontal plane a few inches above my height.
The Sorcerers Crossing wrote:
"Recapitulating your life, especially your sex life, has loosened some of your gates even more.
"The cracking sound you hear at the back of your neck is the moment when your right and left sides have separated.
"This leaves a gap directly in the middle of your body where the energy rises to the neck; the place where the sound is heard. Hearing that pop means that your double is about to become aware."
"What should I do when I hear it?"
"To know what to do isn't that important because there's very little we can do," he said. "We can either remain seated with our eyes shut, or we can get up and move about.
"The important point is to know that we are limited because our physical body controls our awareness.
"But if we can turn it around so that our double controls our awareness, we can do practically anything we can imagine."
Eagle's Gift wrote:"You yourself have witnessed when Genaro used to shoot off his dreaming body," she said. "It pops off like a slow bullet. It actually glues and unglues itself from the physical body with a loud crack.
2nd Ring of Power wrote:
I felt the exertion of her arms and shoulders as she tightened the band around my neck. She was choking me with great force and expertise. I began to gasp. Her eyes stared at me with a maddening glare. I knew then that she intended to kill me.
(...) I heard then, or perhaps I felt, a snapping sound at the base of my neck, right behind my windpipe. I knew that she had cracked my neck[/b]. My ears buzzed and then they tingled. I experienced an exceptional clarity of hearing. I thought that I must be dying. I loathed my incapacity to do anything to defend myself. I could not even move a muscle to kick her. I was unable to breathe anymore. My body shivered, and suddenly I stood up and was free, out of her deadly grip. I looked down on the bed. I seemed to be looking down from the ceiling. I saw my body, motionless and limp on top of hers. I saw horror in her eyes. I wanted her to let go of the noose. I had a fit of wrath for having been so stupid and hit her smack on the forehead with my fist. She shrieked and held her head and then passed out, but before she did I caught a fleeting glimpse of a phantasmagoric scene. I saw dona Soledad being hurled out of the bed by the force of my blow. I saw her running toward the wall and huddling up against it like a frightened child.
The next impression I had was of having a terrible difficulty in breathing. My neck hurt. My throat seemed to have dried
up so intensely that I could not swallow. It took me a long time to gather enough strength to get up.
2nd Ring of Power wrote:All at once I had a monstrous sensation of pain, physical revulsion and terror. I lost my breath. My eyes could not focus.
I knew that I was passing out. I heard then the dry, cracking sound of a pipe breaking at the base of my neck and felt the ticklish sensation on top of my head, running like a shiver through my entire body. The next thing I knew I was looking at them from the other side of the kitchen. The three girls were staring at me while they lay on the floor.
"What are you people doing?" I heard someone say in a loud, harsh, commanding voice.
I then had an inconceivable feeling. I felt Josefina let go of me and stand up. I was lying on the floor, and yet I was also
standing a distance away from them, looking at a woman I had never seen before.
Eagle's Gift wrote:I then used my eyes deliberately to beckon intent. I focused them on the point of the second attention. All of a sudden don Juan, his warriors, dona Soledad, and Eligio were luminous eggs; but not la Gorda, the three little sisters, and the Genaros. I kept on moving my eyes back and forth between the blobs of light and the people until I heard a crack in the base of my neck, and then everybody in the room was a luminous egg.
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Bob May wrote:
Lex Silentio wrote:
Jessicar,
I just saw this response of yours here. I did not hear from you on Skype??
All I can say is I am not really that interested in my point of view concerning the Sorcerer's Explanation. I am interested in DJ's point of view. I believe it is very complex and difficult to arrive at. I got very excited as I presented this because it felt like I was finally beginning to understand what he was getting at. And for me at least what HE is getting at is very different (and not the same) as what is being presented in most forums like this. It is this difference that I have tried to draw attention to, despite the attempts to blur the lines.
When DJ's says he deviates or varies from his own tradition, I see this of great significance. It is something that eluded me (as I know it does others whether others care to admit it or not). It eluded me because the context was missing, or at least sketchy. The context is essential. It is connected to the preparation involved if the Sorcerer's Explanation is to deliver its "lethal blow" effectively. The thread still had a ways to go. We never got to what we thought DJ meant by this "lethal blow", what it means to receive such a blow, its impact etc. (We are not talking about the pat on the back here, impact between the shoulder blades). But you see if one is not even interested in why DJ varies from his tradition to begin with, then all this talk about blows etc is useless. One thing I would like to make clear is I am not offering a Sorcerer's Explanation.
Now for those who do not see this as significant, or consciously recognize the dilemma, then the blow will have no impact. Continue with your lives and pardon the interruption. lol.
Hi Lex and all,
You had an experience that we discussed. It seemed to match an experience that I had. I have a question that is very specific and just came to mind while reading your description of the "lethal blow." I have never related this before but when I experienced what I call stopping the world I was sitting with some "friends" around a table and I was beginning to go into another world so to speak. Everything was changing including their faces and their "inner faces" were being revealed to me. Language came to have no meaning and everything around me began to "come apart" as if turning to fog and disintegrating along geometric lines.
At a specific moment, I heard and felt a very loud pop or crack at the base of my skull in my brainstem. It was very loud to the point that I would have thought that those in the room must have heard it also, but did not ask. It felt like something actually broke.) I tried to speak but words had no meaning and the only thing I could voice was the word No before words lost all meaning.
I knew, at that moment that I was not "coming down", (back to normal) the next day. That proved to be true, and I was caught up in something other than normal for about 6 weeks to two months from that moment. I have experienced that "pop" a few other times in my life since then, coupled with other phenomena, but nothing of the magnitude of that first time.
In the Qabala it is said that the "invisible" Sephirah of Daath confers Knowledge of a completely different being. This Sephirah, when applying the Tree of Life to the microcosm, (our bodies) would be placed at the nape of the neck.
I wonder if you (Lex) had experienced the same thing when you experienced what you experienced or at any other time. And I am also wondering if this might relate to that "Sorcerer's blow" or "lethal blow" Carlos wrote about.
Also if anyone else had experienced a similar thing.
Hey Bob,
That sound you experienced sounds like the pop and opening up of the pineal gland. That is when third eye awareness comes into sight!
Although I never took any heavy drugs or hallucinogenics ( being a product of the 70's culture) I was diagnosed with catatonic schizophrenia with auditory hallucinations at age 14. I was hospitalized with allot of drug addicts whom tripped over the line. We all received the same treatment and therapy since these mimic and masks the same symptoms in the aftermath. Anyway, I believed I felt the popping of my pineal gland at this age. After all this happened I found I could naturally astral project in my dreams and have lucid out of body dreams. This was a very healing time while sleeping! I also had electro shock treatments at age 20 that seemed to mimic the likes of the "sorcerers blow".I had gone more than three months without sleeping because of auditory hallucinations in my youth. I have been told this is humanly impossible. But in those sleepless episodes I learned to combat in sobriety, the "things that go bump in the night" or "flyers", instead of getting the needed R.E. M.
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Hi watergaze,
Thanks for the research.
Some or all of these do seem to apply to what I experienced. The sound signaled a permanent/semi-permanent awareness. And I knew it at the time even though I had never experienced it before. That is the strange thing about it to me.
watergaze wrote:
First I put the explanations, then the experiences (if they do not come together). But they are talking about a crack at the base of the neck, not base of the skull, or behind the windpipe.. Behind the windpipe could still apply.. At the back of your neck does apply.
In my case it was just under the skull, at the back of the neck..
2nd Ring of Power wrote:
The peculiar sound at the base of my neck was something I had become keenly aware of. Don Juan had described it as the sound one makes at the moment of changing speed. I had the faint recollection of having experienced it in his company. Although I had become aware of it the previous night, I had not fully acknowledged it until it happened with Rosa. I realized then that the sound had created a special sensation of heat on the roof of my mouth and inside my ears. The force and dryness of the sound made me think of the peal of a large, cracked bell.Once, while speaking about his grandson and his friends who had been drinking, don Juan told them that being a drunk slows you down while the drugs (halucinagens) sped you up so that you could experience the "fleeting" world of sorcery. A change of speed.
2nd Ring of Power wrote:
Under the impact of dona Soledad and the little sisters' actions, my body had suspended judgment; I had, in don Juan's terms, stopped the world. I had amalgamated two disassociated sensations. The ticklishness on the very top of my head and the dry cracking sound at the base of my neck: between them lay the means to that suspension of judgment.
This suspension of judgement is very important when speaking of stopping the internal dialog. Don Juan said it was more than just a curtailing of the words. When I have experienced this "suspension of judgement " many things that we take for granted have also become suspended because they depend on that "judgement" faculty. Depth perception, hearing and the ability to understand the spoken or written language are also suspended.
Immersed in a "flood" of messages (reaffirmations become constant) and too much information to take in. Surrounded by "animals," (people making animal noises and apearing as different types of creatures.)
Ps 22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.But rather than a higher plane, I think it is more like seeing what is going on behind the scenes of this world. Maybe what don Juan called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point.
As I sat in my car with those two girls, on the side of a deserted mountain road, I knew for a fact that for the first
time I had had a complete awareness of stopping the world. That feeling brought to my mind the memory of another,
similar, first-time bodily awareness I had had years before. It had to do with the ticklishness on top of the head. Don Juan
said that sorcerers had to cultivate such a sensation and he described it at great length. According to him, it was a sort of
itching, which was neither pleasurable nor painful, and which occurred on the very top of one's head. In order to make me
aware of it, on an intellectual level, he described and analyzed its features and then, on the practical side, he attempted to
guide me in developing the necessary bodily awareness and memory of this feeling by making me run under branches or
rocks that protruded on a horizontal plane a few inches above my height.
My own teacher would actually "flick" the top of our heads to show where to put our consciousness when meditating on the crown chakra to produce a bodily memory of the spot we were to concentrate or "be." Where to put our awareness. Just above the skull and in line with the spinal column.
He never mentioned it, but one day it hit me that that is exactly the picture of the crucifixion. Jesus hovering above the hill called "Golgotha" or the "Place of the Skull."
The Sorcerers Crossing wrote:
"Recapitulating your life, especially your sex life, has loosened some of your gates even more.
"The cracking sound you hear at the back of your neck is the moment when your right and left sides have separated.
"This leaves a gap directly in the middle of your body where the energy rises to the neck; the place where the sound is heard. Hearing that pop means that your double is about to become aware."
To sublimate the sex energy is part of Kundalini meditation. My teacher used to say it was very rare for a person to pull the energy above the neck. It seemed to be a dividing line of sorts.
Eagle's Gift wrote:
"You yourself have witnessed when Genaro used to shoot off his dreaming body," she said. "It pops off like a slow bullet. It actually glues and unglues itself from the physical body with a loud crack.
2nd Ring of Power wrote:
I felt the exertion of her arms and shoulders as she tightened the band around my neck. She was choking me with great force and expertise. I began to gasp. Her eyes stared at me with a maddening glare. I knew then that she intended to kill me.
(...) I heard then, or perhaps I felt, a snapping sound at the base of my neck, right behind my windpipe. I knew that she had cracked my neck[/b]. My ears buzzed and then they tingled. I experienced an exceptional clarity of hearing. I thought that I must be dying. I loathed my incapacity to do anything to defend myself. I could not even move a muscle to kick her. I was unable to breathe anymore. My body shivered, and suddenly I stood up and was free, out of her deadly grip. I looked down on the bed. I seemed to be looking down from the ceiling. I saw my body, motionless and limp on top of hers. I saw horror in her eyes. I wanted her to let go of the noose. I had a fit of wrath for having been so stupid and hit her smack on the forehead with my fist. She shrieked and held her head and then passed out, but before she did I caught a fleeting glimpse of a phantasmagoric scene. I saw dona Soledad being hurled out of the bed by the force of my blow. I saw her running toward the wall and huddling up against it like a frightened child.
The next impression I had was of having a terrible difficulty in breathing. My neck hurt. My throat seemed to have dried
up so intensely that I could not swallow. It took me a long time to gather enough strength to get up.
2nd Ring of Power wrote:
All at once I had a monstrous sensation of pain, physical revulsion and terror. I lost my breath. My eyes could not focus.
I knew that I was passing out. I heard then the dry, cracking sound of a pipe breaking at the base of my neck and felt the ticklish sensation on top of my head, running like a shiver through my entire body. The next thing I knew I was looking at them from the other side of the kitchen. The three girls were staring at me while they lay on the floor.
"What are you people doing?" I heard someone say in a loud, harsh, commanding voice.
I then had an inconceivable feeling. I felt Josefina let go of me and stand up. I was lying on the floor, and yet I was also
standing a distance away from them, looking at a woman I had never seen before.
Eagle's Gift wrote:
I then used my eyes deliberately to beckon intent. I focused them on the point of the second attention. All of a sudden don Juan, his warriors, dona Soledad, and Eligio were luminous eggs; but not la Gorda, the three little sisters, and the Genaros. I kept on moving my eyes back and forth between the blobs of light and the people until I heard a crack in the base of my neck, and then everybody in the room was a luminous egg. Again the idea of an expansion of awareness signaled by that popping sound.
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ninth octave wrote:
Hey Bob,
That sound you experienced sounds like the pop and opening up of the pineal gland. That is when third eye awareness comes into sight!
Although I never took any heavy drugs or hallucinogenics ( being a product of the 70's culture) I was diagnosed with catatonic schizophrenia with auditory hallucinations at age 14. I was hospitalized with allot of drug addicts whom tripped over the line. We all received the same treatment and therapy since these mimic and masks the same symptoms in the aftermath. Anyway, I believed I felt the popping of my pineal gland at this age. After all this happened I found I could naturally astral project in my dreams and have lucid out of body dreams. This was a very healing time while sleeping! I also had electro shock treatments at age 20 that seemed to mimic the likes of the "sorcerers blow".I had gone more than three months without sleeping because of auditory hallucinations in my youth. I have been told this is humanly impossible. But in those sleepless episodes I learned to combat in sobriety, the "things that go bump in the night" or "flyers", instead of getting the needed R.E. M.
I'm going to start a new thread. I was involved in a forum on bible study and it hit me that people just automatically relate subjectivity to imagination and objective to reality. Where I see solutions to their arguments and reasoning they do not. It has come to the point that these "biblical Scholars", much more knowledgeable that I am, just ignore my posts. And worse, they have come to the conclusion that if they do not understand something it must be incorrect. Therefore they have begun to throw out large chunks of scripture saying they are incorrect. Once begun, where does that end?
I'm sure it is one of the big problems with communicaton about these subjects. And I am also sure that everyone here has experiences that relate.
Let's call it; "Subjective, Objective and Those That Dwell in the Earth."
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Hi Bob,
you're welcome. I felt it will give us something more tangible so I went through the trouble, and I am glad I did.
For me this experience was quite strange and a bit frightful. Something changed there but I did not really see anything tangible that I remember. I just felt a bit different (and not even very much so). In this case your account is so different from mine it is almost strange .
so when you say:
Bob wrote:The sound signaled a permanent/semi-permanent awareness.
I try to think back to my experience, the one I remember, to see if there were any changes.. But hard to say. I was in my room in silence (I think I even had my eyes closed) before that and after that for quite some time (cause I was scared a bit). Maybe if it happened outside I could stalk it better. Like this I cannot really say if there was any change in "depth perception, hearing and the ability to understand the spoken or written language." So after the initial fright and strangeness of the experience wore of I classified it as one of those weird things we encounter that I will not understand for some time (like I did with the sound of branches cracking and something falling in places where there is nobody and not even cracked branches, or hearing footsteps around you but when you look no one is there, we have to deal with all kinds of strange stuff that we do not understand).
I do think it was connected to suspending judgment and stopping of inner dialog though. Like I say I was just laying on my bed in silence. And got startled by this sound, I actually felt something make the sound behind there, like something was moved to crack like that, opened is really quite a fitting word.
Just now I came here to post something I found while reading what I wrote about balancing the double that is explained in the sorcerer's crossing. It links to our sound at the base of the skull
Sorcerers Crossing wrote:In order for you and me to be sane, we have to work like demons at balancing, not the body or the mind, but the double.
I [Taisha] asked him, "How can we be sure that we're balancing the double?"
By opening our gates.
The first gate is in the sole of the foot, at the base of the big toe.
..."The sixth is at the base of the skull, and the seventh is at the crown of the head."
So this would be the sixth gate and the seventh is the other one that is mentioned in the quotes from CC and the one you mention your teacher showing you. I have not experienced this seventh one yet, or do not remember. Hm, I remember a strange feeling on the top of my head, but I cannot pinpoint it to a memory set in time and space.
I do not work with chakras or meditate. When I was doing Tai Chi a few years ago my tai chi teacher, while checking our body posture during some stance where how we have our shoulders was important, commented that I have that chakra open. I understood the location he was referring to to be somewhere at the base of the neck (a spot there felt good in that position when I focused on it after, the chakra was supposedly flowing better through it in that position). So guess that was the throat chakra. It meant nothing to me in the sense that I did not know what it means . I just thought about this now when you mentioned the Kundalini, which I now understand as an energy that goes through all the centers.
Bob wrote:To sublimate the sex energy is part of Kundalini meditation. My teacher used to say it was very rare for a person to pull the energy above the neck. It seemed to be a dividing line of sorts.
So in order to pull the energy above means that the energy has to flow from down to up to open this other point and hear this sound that we heard? Do you think that since one heard the sound that it means that at least at that time all the chakras below were open? Would the base of the skull count as above the neck already or not yet. The specific spot I feel is to be just where the neck meets the skull, there is a sort of hollow in that region.
One thing that has been of interest to me is how to transform sexual energy into some other energy. I therefore click on all sexual energy (and transforming sexual energy) posts but they are not focusing on what I am looking for. I do not looking for how to make my sexual experiences better or what to do while having sex, I am looking for changing arousal into another form of energy. I manage to do this sometimes by pulling the energy up, by intending it. But sometimes I am not able to do so. Could you please say more on the sublimating of sex energy? How do you do that and to what do you sublimate it? I have encountered one specific way that is possible, that is to relocate the energy to a specific place that needs healing. I remembered this once in dreaming when I felt arousal and managed to do so. I also tried spreading the energy into the whole body. These are just some spontaneous ways that have come up, I would appreciate if you could trow some of your wisdom into this..
Bob wrote:Once, while speaking about his grandson and his friends who had been drinking, don Juan told them that being a drunk slows you down while the drugs (halucinagens) sped you up so that you could experience the "fleeting" world of sorcery. A change of speed.
I was wondering what DJ meant by that speeding up, thanks for clarifying that.
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