Exegesis

[Bob May]

watergaze wrote:
So this would be the sixth gate and the seventh is the other one that is mentioned in the quotes from CC and the one you mention your teacher showing you. I have not experienced this seventh one yet, or do not remember. Hm, I remember a strange feeling on the top of my head, but I cannot pinpoint it to a memory set in time and space.
I am no expert in the chakras, though I have opened most and experienced awakening of the senses that they seem to be aligned with.
My yeacher was adamant that the kundalini or baptism of fire came down from outside the body and turned and rose within the body.
it is not an energy coiled in the base of the spine, or rather THAT energy is awakened by the force that comes down from above.



Ps 24:7
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.




Ps 24:8
Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.


 

Ps 24:9
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.


 

Ps 24:10
Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
I do not work with chakras or meditate. When I was doing Tai Chi a few years ago my tai chi teacher, while checking our body posture during some stance where how we have our shoulders was important, commented that I have that chakra open. I understood the location he was referring to to be somewhere at the base of the neck (a spot there felt good in that position when I focused on it after, the chakra was supposedly flowing better through it in that position). So guess that was the throat chakra. It meant nothing to me in the sense that I did not know what it means . I just thought about this now when you mentioned the Kundalini, which I now understand as an energy that goes through all the centers.
I don't know whether the nape of the neck and the throat chakra are the same thing.
Bob wrote:
To sublimate the sex energy is part of Kundalini meditation. My teacher used to say it was very rare for a person to pull the energy above the neck. It seemed to be a dividing line of sorts.
So in order to pull the energy above means that the energy has to flow from down to up to open this other point and hear this sound that we heard? Do you think that since one heard the sound that it means that at least at that time all the chakras below were open? Would the base of the skull count as above the neck already or not yet. The specific spot I feel is to be just where the neck meets the skull, there is a sort of hollow in that region.
And that is where I felt and heard the pop. These things seem to follow the grey matter in the human body. The nape of the neck is all grey matter. So are many plexus in the body. Like trees or bushes made of gey matter, the largest is the solar plexus area.
One thing that has been of interest to me is how to transform sexual energy into some other energy. I therefore click on all sexual energy (and transforming sexual energy) posts but they are not focusing on what I am looking for. I do not looking for how to make my sexual experiences better or what to do while having sex, I am looking for changing arousal into another form of energy. I manage to do this sometimes by pulling the energy up, by intending it. But sometimes I am not able to do so. Could you please say more on the sublimating of sex energy? How do you do that and to what do you sublimate it? I have encountered one specific way that is possible, that is to relocate the energy to a specific place that needs healing. I remembered this once in dreaming when I felt arousal and managed to do so. I also tried spreading the energy into the whole body. These are just some spontaneous ways that have come up, I would appreciate if you could trow some of your wisdom into this..
My teacher was a very practical man. He taught body awareness and mind awareness as a foundation for meditation. Body awareness is the ability to be able to sit for long periods of time without moving and completely comfortably. It takes practice and discipline. Then Mind awareness, the ability to sit for long periods of time without any or just one thought going through your mind. You basically calm your thoughts and just observe as thoughts run through your mind. Eventually you lose a connection with them. just observe as if it is happening to someone else.
So if and when you get to that point you can begin to meditate.
The meditation used to sublimate the sexual energy is the "point meditation." Or the "thousand Petalled Rose" as it is known in Eastern Traditions. Place your awareness (as I described before) just above your head directly over the spinal column. Keep it there. That is it. Seems simple and it is
in what you do but it takes some discipline and practice.
If you feel any sexual stimuli just use you will as you mentioned or physically pull it up while keeping the awareness on that "point." 
The same meditation with the addition of reaching up from that point is used for Rising on the planes.
Like I said my teacher was a practical man, as am I. Though he was able to open chakras and circulate energy at will because he was a healer, he also taught what was most needed.
In the way of the mystic there are things that get "bypassed" because going up the "middle pillar" of the tree of life confers the knowledge of the Sephiroth on the two side pillars.
This is as opposed to the way of the occultist who tries to experience all of the paths and Sephiroth in order on the way up the tree of life. This way leads to imbalance and can lead to insanity and death.
I see the chakras the same way. If I open the top chakra the others will open as needed.
The main thing is that the gates open and the "Lord of Glory" comes in. I may miss some details, but they will be filled in later.
By the way, the sublimating of sexual energy does work. I notice very distinct benefits as long as I have been doing this meditation. You go through life more calmly and less ruled by emotions and lustful thoughts etc. And you begin to experience the world in other, deeper ways.
I hope this helps,

[Bob May]

Hi Wolf,
Your recent post is gone from the thread.
You mentioned having performed the sorcerer's blow on people in the past.
I was going to as you if you thought that that blow between the shoulder blades may have had the effect of shocking the nape of the neck when the student was ready.
It seems like it could have the same effect there as a whiplash does when rear ended by a car.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Hello Bright Flame. Let me say as always I appreciate your contributions to the forums and add much food for thought in the process. When I read your points of view it gives me another perception from entirely different spiritual side that rings truth with my own alot. The blow can be delivered in different ways and where it lands can be different depending on the effect one wants to happen. CC took the blows in the shoulder blades because that was the hole where is assemblage point could be affected on his luminous shell. A blow meant to shift people has to be given with seeing and intent by a sorcerer. Whiplash is a funny way to explain the reaction and makes me laugh but how it may appear to a observer as such. Moving on....the trains of thought here are two: will there be a mass shifting of the world's ap and is a warrior party necessary for the new seers to gain total freedom? I wrote back when, I differ from you in that I believe "god" is indifferent to mankind and is of the earth not infinity. That if earth ceased then there would be no more feeding of awareness to god/eagle. For to me the eagle in the vision is god and yes there is a way to speak with it but not with words or prayer but with silent knowledge.

[watergaze]

Bob wrote:I hope this helps
Hi Bob, thanks for your reply, sure it helps. You basically gave me a recipe of what you find to be helpful. And you told me to concentrate on that upper part of my head while pulling up the sexual energy, which I have not done before. So I will try this. I have not been meditating, but I know how to sit in one position for some time (not any position though and not sure how long, never tried measuring it). I can lie down and be still, if that can be done/if that still counts (does it?), it is more comfortable. I had times when I realized that I had been in the same position during the whole night..

The 1 thought/no thought thing I will have to try, I have not been specifically focusing on not thinking while sitting in one position, just during walking or just when doing whatever. What counts as one thought? For example 'life is beautiful' is one thought but it can lead to a lot of images and memories..
I have kept myself away from meditation because I had a sort of scary experience when I first tried it. I thought it better not to mess with stuff I do not understand . Maybe you can name for me what I experienced there.. To make a long story short it was like I forgot about myself, that I am me, I was in this vast realm where I just was and was not anyone really. I'd say it was a dark place (but not dark in terms of negative). I have not had any notion of being a being with an identity and as such I have not really had any conscious drive to come back to myself from that place. When I got back to my body/back to being myself I got frightened. I was not scared while in that place, but once I came back I was, because I realized I could have just stayed there and not even known that I am not being somewhere else. Not known about being the me /myself that I have a body/life/identity here. I think it was my tonal/ego that got scared, because it was like it was not really that needed, that it could just puff out of existence. My coming back seemed almost like good luck to me at that time.. I decided meditating was dangerous . This happened maybe 8 years ago. I have tried meditating a few times since (not more than 10), just in a kind of relaxing and quieting down way. I have actually forgotten this experience for some time.

Just today I have encountered the term thymic chakra and not knowing much about chakras I went to google it to find which one it is. From the name I would have guessed it is the throat chakra, but I did not find that the throat chakra's alternative name was thymic. So I googled thymic and found out:
It is a chakra "located between the Throat and Heart chakras. Like the Base of the Throat Chakra it is an important activator of higher consciousness. " (http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Thymic.htm)
So I guess what I meant before was the Base of the Throat chakra . Sure sounds like it: "Base of Throat chakra is located at the V-like notch at the base of the neck and top of the sternum (breastbone)" (http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Ba ... hroat.html)
So just thought I would clarify that, since it presented itself to me..
Bob wrote:You go through life more calmly and less ruled by emotions and lustful thoughts etc. And you begin to experience the world in other, deeper ways. I do not have problems with lustful thoughts but recently my body gets aroused for no good reason during an activity (that is not even remotely sexual) where I need to concentrate. So it is not like I see something/someone sexy or because I am close to someone or that I think of something like that, it just comes on its own, the body feels it and I do not have thoughts or images of sexual things while it is happening, unless I decide to act on it. It is somewhat of a nuisance..

I'd like to come back to what you said here:
Bob May wrote:This suspension of judgement is very important when speaking of stopping the internal dialog. Don Juan said it was more than just a curtailing of the words. When I have experienced this "suspension of judgement " many things that we take for granted have also become suspended because they depend on that "judgement" faculty. Depth perception, hearing and the ability to understand the spoken or written language are also suspended.
Immersed in a "flood" of messages (reaffirmations become constant) and too much information to take in. Surrounded by "animals," (people making animal noises and apearing as different types of creatures.)
...
But rather than a higher plane, I think it is more like seeing what is going on behind the scenes of this world. Maybe what don Juan called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point. I am currently thinking about language and working on writing a reply to the 'Ancient Tongues' thread and this reminded me of a part where my thoughts went while doing so.

So coming from what you just said here, would you say that if one suspends judgment then one cannot understand a language that one actually should? Cause this happened to me on more occasions - 2 that I specifically remember where no tiredness or intent to do so was involved. But I never looked at it as stopping the world. Though sure stopping of the usual AP world. In this sense it happened to me with my mother language and with a foreign language. The foreign language was the language generally spoken around me at that time, but I was was expecting to hear English.
After the initial flow of incomprehensible sound I intend to understand and I actually feel a switch/shift of sorts take place and then I understand again.

This is different than the state when we are tired and/or just stop listening to others. I actually waited to hear the sound/ waited for the person to start speaking and once he did I did not understand him . There were others talking around me just before this happened but I was not listening to them, so they were just sound in the background. The other instance was when I switched on the TV and heard gibberish for a few seconds until I switched myself to understand. In the TV case it was in my own country with my own language. I might be able to classify it as having suspended judgment / stopping the world because I might not have been expecting anything specific, whereas in the first example I must have expected a different language than what the person started to speak.

Would you say that the state when one is too tired to (or just decides one does not want to) listen and just lets language flow around without trying to make sense of it is close to stopping the world? One can just let the language flow in sound around them. Do not catch it with the intellect or whatever it is that puts words into meaning. Something similar, though different can be done with the sight, just de-focus, stop translating visual stuff into objects and things. I would call this not doing. But not doing is supposed to lead to the stopping of the world .

For me understanding language is a matter of AP. Each language has its specific AP. I will try to get into this in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread (sometime soon). So far I would say that the state of not understanding language is also a shift of AP, but to a different place, maybe it is what you say DJ called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point. Not sure how to imagine it, but understand the world lateral to mean sideways. I would say it is a shift to a position that is further from the usual.

[watergaze]

Bob wrote:I hope this helps
Hi Bob, thanks for your reply, sure it helps. You basically gave me a recipe of what you find to be helpful. And you told me to concentrate on that upper part of my head while pulling up the sexual energy, which I have not done before. So I will try this. I have not been meditating, but I know how to sit in one position for some time (not any position though and not sure how long, never tried measuring it). I can lie down and be still, if that can be done/if that still counts (does it?), it is more comfortable. I had times when I realized that I had been in the same position during the whole night..

The 1 thought/no thought thing I will have to try, I have not been specifically focusing on not thinking while sitting in one position, just during walking or just when doing whatever. What counts as one thought? For example 'life is beautiful' is one thought but it can lead to a lot of images and memories..
I have kept myself away from meditation because I had a sort of scary experience when I first tried it. I thought it better not to mess with stuff I do not understand . Maybe you can name for me what I experienced there.. To make a long story short it was like I forgot about myself, that I am me, I was in this vast realm where I just was and was not anyone really. I'd say it was a dark place (but not dark in terms of negative). I have not had any notion of being a being with an identity and as such I have not really had any conscious drive to come back to myself from that place. When I got back to my body/back to being myself I got frightened. I was not scared while in that place, but once I came back I was, because I realized I could have just stayed there and not even known that I am not being somewhere else. Not known about being the me /myself that I have a body/life/identity here. I think it was my tonal/ego that got scared, because it was like it was not really that needed, that it could just puff out of existence. My coming back seemed almost like good luck to me at that time.. I decided meditating was dangerous . This happened maybe 8 years ago. I have tried meditating a few times since (not more than 10), just in a kind of relaxing and quieting down way. I have actually forgotten this experience for some time.

Just today I have encountered the term thymic chakra and not knowing much about chakras I went to google it to find which one it is. From the name I would have guessed it is the throat chakra, but I did not find that the throat chakra's alternative name was thymic. So I googled thymic and found out:
It is a chakra "located between the Throat and Heart chakras. Like the Base of the Throat Chakra it is an important activator of higher consciousness. " (http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Thymic.htm)
So I guess what I meant before was the Base of the Throat chakra . Sure sounds like it: "Base of Throat chakra is located at the V-like notch at the base of the neck and top of the sternum (breastbone)" (http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Ba ... hroat.html)
So just thought I would clarify that, since it presented itself to me..
Bob wrote:You go through life more calmly and less ruled by emotions and lustful thoughts etc. And you begin to experience the world in other, deeper ways. I do not have problems with lustful thoughts but recently my body gets aroused for no good reason during an activity (that is not even remotely sexual) where I need to concentrate. So it is not like I see something/someone sexy or because I am close to someone or that I think of something like that, it just comes on its own, the body feels it and I do not have thoughts or images of sexual things while it is happening, unless I decide to act on it. It is somewhat of a nuisance..

I'd like to come back to what you said here:
Bob May wrote:This suspension of judgement is very important when speaking of stopping the internal dialog. Don Juan said it was more than just a curtailing of the words. When I have experienced this "suspension of judgement " many things that we take for granted have also become suspended because they depend on that "judgement" faculty. Depth perception, hearing and the ability to understand the spoken or written language are also suspended.
Immersed in a "flood" of messages (reaffirmations become constant) and too much information to take in. Surrounded by "animals," (people making animal noises and apearing as different types of creatures.)
...
But rather than a higher plane, I think it is more like seeing what is going on behind the scenes of this world. Maybe what don Juan called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point. I am currently thinking about language and working on writing a reply to the 'Ancient Tongues' thread and this reminded me of a part where my thoughts went while doing so.

So coming from what you just said here, would you say that if one suspends judgment then one cannot understand a language that one actually should? Cause this happened to me on more occasions - 2 that I specifically remember where no tiredness or intent to do so was involved. But I never looked at it as stopping the world. Though sure stopping of the usual AP world. In this sense it happened to me with my mother language and with a foreign language. The foreign language was the language generally spoken around me at that time, but I was was expecting to hear English.
After the initial flow of incomprehensible sound I intend to understand and I actually feel a switch/shift of sorts take place and then I understand again.

This is different than the state when we are tired and/or just stop listening to others. I actually waited to hear the sound/ waited for the person to start speaking and once he did I did not understand him . There were others talking around me just before this happened but I was not listening to them, so they were just sound in the background. The other instance was when I switched on the TV and heard gibberish for a few seconds until I switched myself to understand. In the TV case it was in my own country with my own language. I might be able to classify it as having suspended judgment / stopping the world because I might not have been expecting anything specific, whereas in the first example I must have expected a different language than what the person started to speak.

Would you say that the state when one is too tired to (or just decides one does not want to) listen and just lets language flow around without trying to make sense of it is close to stopping the world? One can just let the language flow in sound around them. Do not catch it with the intellect or whatever it is that puts words into meaning. Something similar, though different can be done with the sight, just de-focus, stop translating visual stuff into objects and things. I would call this not doing. But not doing is supposed to lead to the stopping of the world .

For me understanding language is a matter of AP. Each language has its specific AP. I will try to get into this in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread (sometime soon). So far I would say that the state of not understanding language is also a shift of AP, but to a different place, maybe it is what you say DJ called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point. Not sure how to imagine it, but understand the world lateral to mean sideways. I would say it is a shift to a position that is further from the usual.

[Bob May]

watergaze wrote:

Bob wrote:

I hope this helps
Hi Bob, thanks for your reply, sure it helps. You basically gave me a recipe of what you find to be helpful. And you told me to concentrate on that upper part of my head while pulling up the sexual energy, which I have not done before. So I will try this.
After some practice you can move your awareness or consciousness to various places in and around the body. This awareness as I understand it is Me. So, basically I am there. From "there" I can pull the energy up. Or circulate the energy around my body which I am not too good at. It is good to not open one chakra more than others. It is also good to open the higher ones, (heart, throat, brow and crown,)  rather than the lower (solar plexus area and sexual organ area.) I'm no expert and some of these lower ones are difficult to distinguish one from another. There are drawings and charts but some differences in location in them.
Form what I gather the goal is to have them all open but in balance. 

I have not been meditating, but I know how to sit in one position for some time (not any position though and not sure how long, never tried measuring it). I can lie down and be still, if that can be done/if that still counts (does it?), it is more comfortable. I had times when I realized that I had been in the same position during the whole night..
My teacher used to advise against meditating lying down because it could tend to cause insomnia when you actually lie down to sleep. As far as position goes you just find a comfortable sitting position with your spine straight. You can tend to fall over after a time if you are not balanced.
The 1 thought/no thought thing I will have to try, I have not been specifically focusing on not thinking while sitting in one position, just during walking or just when doing whatever. What counts as one thought? For example 'life is beautiful' is one thought but it can lead to a lot of images and memories..
No thoughts would be just being. One thought could be like putting your awareness on crown chakra or it could be just rolling ideas about a project through your mind. Ideas just pop in that solve problems you are working on.

I have kept myself away from meditation because I had a sort of scary experience when I first tried it. I thought it better not to mess with stuff I do not understand . Maybe you can name for me what I experienced there.. To make a long story short it was like I forgot about myself, that I am me, I was in this vast realm where I just was and was not anyone really. I'd say it was a dark place (but not dark in terms of negative). I have not had any notion of being a being with an identity and as such I have not really had any conscious drive to come back to myself from that place. When I got back to my body/back to being myself I got frightened. I was not scared while in that place, but once I came back I was, because I realized I could have just stayed there and not even known that I am not being somewhere else. Not known about being the me /myself that I have a body/life/identity here. I think it was my tonal/ego that got scared, because it was like it was not really that needed, that it could just puff out of existence. My coming back seemed almost like good luck to me at that time.. I decided meditating was dangerous . This happened maybe 8 years ago. I have tried meditating a few times since (not more than 10), just in a kind of relaxing and quieting down way. I have actually forgotten this experience for some time.
The subconscious mind will play tricks on you because it does not want to lose control that it has always had. When we feel fear and other emotions it is actually a feeling in the body we are feeling and relating it to a past fear. When doing body awareness if we are deep enough we do not feel the body and so we do not feel fear. Anyway, just observe. That is what I was told for so long. You will feel all kinds of wierd things like your legs in different positions than you remember them being when you sat down to meditate etc. Just observe, no judgement, no worries.
I was also taught to open and close each meditation with a "protection" of sorts. We used the "Qabala Cross." It helps you to initiate the meditation and then close yourself down. It also helps to acknowledge a higher being to protect you while you meditate.
You do this by putting together the index, second finger and thumb of your right hand together and saying, "For  Thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever and ever, Amen." As you say these words you touch in turn your forehead (Thine), Solar Plexus (Kingdom), Power (Right shoulder), Glory (left shoulder) Ever and ever (circle above your Breast twice) and Amen (touch your breastbone.)
Other schools of thought use other symbols but something should be performed to open and close to separate the two states of mind and ask protection when entering into a "magical operation." 

Just today I have encountered the term thymic chakra and not knowing much about chakras I went to google it to find which one it is. From the name I would have guessed it is the throat chakra, but I did not find that the throat chakra's alternative name was thymic. So I googled thymic and found out:
It is a chakra "located between the Throat and Heart chakras. Like the Base of the Throat Chakra it is an important activator of higher consciousness. " (http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Thymic.htm)
Connected to the Thyroid gland. Supposed to have to do with Clairaudio,.. Hearing abilities. 

So I guess what I meant before was the Base of the Throat chakra . Sure sounds like it: "Base of Throat chakra is located at the V-like notch at the base of the neck and top of the sternum (breastbone)" (http://www.kheper.net/top...ras/Base_of_Throat.html)
So just thought I would clarify that, since it presented itself to me..
Bob wrote:

You go through life more calmly and less ruled by emotions and lustful thoughts etc. And you begin to experience the world in other, deeper ways.I do not have problems with lustful thoughts but recently my body gets aroused for no good reason during an activity (that is not even remotely sexual) where I need to concentrate. So it is not like I see something/someone sexy or because I am close to someone or that I think of something like that, it just comes on its own, the body feels it and I do not have thoughts or images of sexual things while it is happening, unless I decide to act on it. It is somewhat of a nuisance..
I've had similar things. For me, I think that it was a case of the base chakra being too activated and not having pulled up the enegy sufficiently. It got to the point for a time when every time I even thought about the Crown chakra the lower one would kick into gear automatically.
I'd like to come back to what you said here:
Bob May wrote:

This suspension of judgement is very important when speaking of stopping the internal dialog. Don Juan said it was more than just a curtailing of the words. When I have experienced this "suspension of judgement " many things that we take for granted have also become suspended because they depend on that "judgement" faculty. Depth perception, hearing and the ability to understand the spoken or written language are also suspended.
Immersed in a "flood" of messages (reaffirmations become constant) and too much information to take in. Surrounded by "animals," (people making animal noises and apearing as different types of creatures.)
...
But rather than a higher plane, I think it is more like seeing what is going on behind the scenes of this world. Maybe what don Juan called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point.I am currently thinking about language and working on writing a reply to the 'Ancient Tongues' thread and this reminded me of a part where my thoughts went while doing so.
So coming from what you just said here, would you say that if one suspends judgment then one cannot understand a language that one actually should?
Yes. Reminds me of a flock of geese sometimes. They make a noise like human beings but there is no meaning there.

Cause this happened to me on more occasions - 2 that I specifically remember where no tiredness or intent to do so was involved. But I never looked at it as stopping the world. Though sure stopping of the usual AP world. In this sense it happened to me with my mother language and with a foreign language. The foreign language was the language generally spoken around me at that time, but I was was expecting to hear English.
After the initial flow of incomprehensible sound I intend to understand and I actually feel a switch/shift of sorts take place and then I understand again.
This is different than the state when we are tired and/or just stop listening to others. I actually waited to hear the sound/ waited for the person to start speaking and once he did I did not understand him . There were others talking around me just before this happened but I was not listening to them, so they were just sound in the background. The other instance was when I switched on the TV and heard gibberish for a few seconds until I switched myself to understand. In the TV case it was in my own country with my own language. I might be able to classify it as having suspended judgment / stopping the world because I might not have been expecting anything specific, whereas in the first example I must have expected a different language than what the person started to speak.
Don Juan told Carlos that stopping the world came a little at a time and then all at once. Carlos experienced many "little things" reaffirmations etc.
which don Juan referred to loosely as stopping the world but there comes a point in my experience when it all falls apart. A complete breakdown. Reaffirmations become constant and you find yourself living in two worlds at once. I don't recommend it,..especially if a person does not believe in a loving God of some sort.
All I am saying is that from my experience, the meaning of language falling away seems to be a signal of sorts that a person is crossing a specific barrier or veil.
The confusion of language at the tower of Babel was a significant place in human consciousness. As was the understanding of other tongues at Pentecost.

Would you say that the state when one is too tired to (or just decides one does not want to) listen and just lets language flow around without trying to make sense of it is close to stopping the world? One can just let the language flow in sound around them. Do not catch it with the intellect or whatever it is that puts words into meaning. Something similar, though different can be done with the sight, just de-focus, stop translating visual stuff into objects and things. I would call this not doing. But not doing is supposed to lead to the stopping of the world .
 
Yes, both gazing which puts one in that state of mind and sleep deprivation  were both practicede by don Juan. Fasting is another method.

For me understanding language is a matter of AP. Each language has its specific AP. I will try to get into this in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread (sometime soon). So far I would say that the state of not understanding language is also a shift of AP, but to a different place, maybe it is what you say DJ called a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point. Not sure how to imagine it, but understand the world lateral to mean sideways. I would say it is a shift to a position that is further from the usual.
I think much of what don Juan called AP shifts happens because of feeling. Some people dance, some sing to bring on another state of mind. Maybe you do it by swithching languages and feeling with them.
My teacher used to say, "To have an experience once it is just an experience. To have it twice, you have mastered it."
He also said to repeat an experience, you remember the feeling.
I may not be understanding exactly what don Juan meant by a lateral shift but it has come to mean to me that it is not a "higher plane" experience, but what lies just beyond our five senses. A frightening chaotic world (maybe the sorcerer's description). Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought.
From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from.
As a man of knowledge don Juan was trying to show that to Carlos not to trap him in that frightening place.
If you place the tree of life on the human body, as opposed to the universe as a whole, putting your consciousness on the higher centers/chakras (from the heart center upward) helps you to bypass the lower nature and experiences and experience something from beyond those lower realms.
To place your consciousness on the various centers, I believe, is similar to moving the AP Same results different schools of thought.

[watergaze]

Bob May wrote:After some practice you can move your awareness or consciousness to various places in and around the body. This awareness as I understand it is Me. So, basically I am there. From "there" I can pull the energy up. Or circulate the energy around my body which I am not too good at.So if I am Me consciousness at the top of my head I pull the sexual energy towards me (which is different than focusing on the place where the sexual energy is and try go up with it). Interesting is for me to note from where I have been moving the sexual energy, or up to where it was able to go..
Bob wrote:It is good to not open one chakra more than others. It is also good to open the higher ones, (heart, throat, brow and crown,) rather than the lower (solar plexus area and sexual organ area. I suppose I have had more the lower centers open (at least before if not now), I remember Taisha being told that she walks funny because of some open lower centers (those talked about in balancing the double).
Bob wrote:My teacher used to advise against meditating lying down because it could tend to cause insomnia when you actually lie down to sleep. As far as position goes you just find a comfortable sitting position with your spine straight. You can tend to fall over after a time if you are not balanced. Noted . I usually stop with the sitting if I start to lose control of my body (that is why I like lying down more, although there is the danger that one will fall asleep)... so guess this tells me I should just find a better position, sit against a wall or something..
Bob wrotecircle above your Breast twice) and Amen (touch your breastbone.)

the circle is clockwise or anticlockwise, or doesn't matter?
Bob wrote:Connected to the Thyroid gland. Supposed to have to do with Clairaudio,.. Hearing abilities.
Ok, so here you got me . I wrote something about my strange hearing when I was writing about the languages and hearing sound and AP positions and stopping of the world. But decided it is not needed and that I might post it in some thread that goes with that topic. The info I linked on that chakra does not mention hearing abilities.. ah well. I still have that part so I am just pasting it here:

I also sometimes get into a mode of dual/double hearing. This was quite a blast when it first happened to me. I hear the sound with both ears while being aware of the sound stream that goes into each ear. So there was a duality to the sound, most of the sounds we hear are put together in our brain, as it is with eyes (while each eye sees a bit different image). So in one ear the sound comes a bit earlier or whatever, therefore it has an effect as if there were two vocals very close to each other. I was listening to music at the time and doing my stuff on comp and something was new, I found out that there is as if a repeating of the vocal (kind of like echo but not, if one knows the double whistle then it is like that. one hears 2 tones but both, they are not exactly made into one even when they are the same tone). I had not realized there was this kind of back/repeated vocal there. So I was playing it over and listening very closely. It was very nice with those other vocals in it, and I was quite taken with the fact that I did not notice before, thought it must be because of the bad comp speaker quality. Then somebody came in my room and said something. And I said something. And I was hearing all double. And there I was like !!.
Got a bit freaked out, thought what if this never stops lol. It did, lasted maybe half an hour. It happens from time to time, had it a lot of times already. Often it comes with a slight form of heightened awareness. It is hard to focus on conversation with more people when it happens. But in a room where there are people on more sides I guess it has some practical use, though I could not get a good control of it as of yet (not only has one to hear stuff one also has to sort it), cause usually I am doing other stuff and when in conversation I have to concentrate on that. I also have a slightly different space perception when this happens (but it does not mean what it says, goes on a different level). I have learned that the ears are important for mapping space. The ear is what we can use in our travels to other realms. I have just encountered this info, so cannot even say it better for myself. Most people know that in terms of the other perceptions that the eyes do a lot of things, but truly, the ears are also quite interesting .

I guess it is the auditory version of when we start seeing some object double when we do stuff with the eyes.
Some time after it had happened to me I remembered that in CC before he jumped into the abyss DJ and DG were each talking into one of his ears and his hearing was split. Felt a bit better to know it does not have to mean something is wrong with my ears .

Like I said all sorts of weird stuff happens to people like us, and we just got to learn to take it at face value and learn to live with it. How do you function when you get into a different state for a couple of weeks? Must be pretty different world perception. I am still not medically sure if all is right with my ears, did not go see a doctor. But apart from those states my hearing is just as usual. Have had a bit higher sensitivity to pressure changes while flying though, but that only lately, not right after this happened for the first time, so might not be connected.

Apart from this stereo hearing I sometimes hear things (information) when I am in the in between state before waking up. Sometimes it is like what people think in connection to me, what they want to tell me. However, even if they might mean what they say at that moment, they could still not act on it. It depends on the character of the person I guess . Just like in the normal type of talk.. when someone can say they will do something and not do it in the end. I did not only hear these types of things, but I do not remember much, it is easy to forget in such a state, especially if one does not write it down immediately. And I also think it is best not to get fixated on such things..
Bob wrote:I've had similar things. For me, I think that it was a case of the base chakra being too activated and not having pulled up the enegy sufficiently. It got to the point for a time when every time I even thought about the Crown chakra the lower one would kick into gear automatically.
Interesting. So when this happened you just pulled it up and it was fine again? How does it happen that a chakra is too activated? (if you know..)
Bob wrote:All I am saying is that from my experience, the meaning of language falling away seems to be a signal of sorts that a person is crossing a specific barrier or veil.
The confusion of language at the tower of Babel was a significant place in human consciousness. As was the understanding of other tongues at Pentecost.
Interesting, again. I know the story of Babel, it is one of the most famous ones, so even I know it. Wasn't it presented as a bad thing in the Bible though? People building the tower to get to god, but the tower was blown down and they stopped understanding each other. With the interpretation put on it that it was a sort of punishment and preventing them to cooperate in such a way in the future.
The way you present it here it is truly organic with a state of consciousness and as such could be seen as a valid and good step on the stairway leading upwards where one wishes to climb. Then the element of punishment is off, but how about the striking down of the tower? how does that fit in? Is it like a sudden change in the perception of the person? That the world comes tumbling down kind of? Reference to stopping the world? Or what you say at the end of your post that a lateral shift is not a higher plane of experience? "Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought. From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from."
I do not know the Pentecost story of understanding other tongues, so I googled . It connects to what Kaomea was mentioning in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread. Sigh . So would you say that first comes the Babel experience and then the Pentecost one? Or it does not matter what order they come in? Is it just a collection of APs one should have? How do you look at these experiences?
What would be the Pentecost experience? I read on wiki that each man could understand the apostles in their own language. Well, I know about 'the language of the soul' and one could say that all understand it, if they listen.. because the soul of each person understands it.
Bob wrote:I think much of what don Juan called AP shifts happens because of feeling. Some people dance, some sing to bring on another state of mind. Maybe you do it by swithching languages and feeling with them. My teacher used to say, "To have an experience once it is just an experience. To have it twice, you have mastered it."
He also said to repeat an experience, you remember the feeling.
Yes, Feeling is crucial. I use feeling to get to the AP position. So one could say we have something like a feeling map. In dreaming if I have the feeling it serves me as a key to get to where I was. I actually use some scenes or even objects as keys, but it started off as pure feelings, the objects/scenes just help me keep/store them better. I can enter a dream I had a long time ago, if I have the key. This goes for waking life as well. I have to be quite careful because I can even bring back symptoms from an illness from my past if I go to the feeling that I had from it at that time (I move to the AP of the illness and I have the illness). So, if one has a key from real life to a past situation/memory it works the same. And vice versa, if one moves the AP to the place where one was before one remembers those memories. This I see often in dreams, I get somewhere and remember my other dreams. Or sometimes while recounting a dream I remember even parts of that dream or a connected dream that I had previously forgotten and have not noted in my dream journal.
The thing with people is that they only have a set of feelings that they use, therefore their feeling map is very rigid and limited. What people like us do is that we expand our feeling map by which I am basically saying we expand out range of AP positions.
Yes I can do it with language, but it is not my forte, so to speak. Although, it did help me have special experiences, hm. I know more languages and therefore I know that each have their own feeling, way of looking at the world and that even I am slightly different when in a different language mode/state. Here I am already crossing to what I was planning to say in the other thread. In my language we have a saying (translates a bit strangely but I will do it word for word anyway): "How many languages you know that many times you are a person." For sorcerers that would be translated into: From that many AP positions you can experience the world .

I do not know if twice is all it takes to master something though . Guess I am a bit lame . For example I have not mastered my double hearing and I have had it already many times.
Bob wrote:I may not be understanding exactly what don Juan meant by a lateral shift but it has come to mean to me that it is not a "higher plane" experience, but what lies just beyond our five senses. A frightening chaotic world (maybe the sorcerer's description). Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought.
From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from.
So you would say that this stopping of language is just so that we realize that it is possible to experience the world in a different way? Do we have to stop the world just to realize that we do not belong into this world or the stopped world? This is a somewhat confusing thought if I write it.. Because where then do we belong.. How do we find this in between of things to pass through? It is like one feels something there, the edges..

[Bob May]

watergaze wrote:

Bob May wrote:

After some practice you can move your awareness or consciousness to various places in and around the body. This awareness as I understand it is Me. So, basically I am there. From "there" I can pull the energy up. Or circulate the energy around my body which I am not too good at.So if I am Me consciousness at the top of my head I pull the sexual energy towards me (which is different than focusing on the place where the sexual energy is and try go up with it). Interesting is for me to note from where I have been moving the sexual energy, or up to where it was able to go..
Yes, you are there and from there you can pull up and then stay there watching/feeling the energy rise. Or you can be there and reach up and pull down power or reach up and rise by desire/devotion.
To put you consciousness on the lower centers just activates them rather than sublimating anything. What motivates you and what do you want to experience of this life? Most people do their thinking and sensing the world from somewhere below the solar plexus. 
Bob wrote:

It is good to not open one chakra more than others. It is also good to open the higher ones, (heart, throat, brow and crown,) rather than the lower (solar plexus area and sexual organ area.I suppose I have had more the lower centers open (at least before if not now), I remember Taisha being told that she walks funny because of some open lower centers (those talked about in balancing the double).
That is normal. A totally "Natural" man is more concerned with lower things. It is not until we begin to look for something "else" do we begin to dewvelop in other areas. Man was created to be more than natural.
Bob wrote:

My teacher used to advise against meditating lying down because it could tend to cause insomnia when you actually lie down to sleep. As far as position goes you just find a comfortable sitting position with your spine straight. You can tend to fall over after a time if you are not balanced.Noted . I usually stop with the sitting if I start to lose control of my body (that is why I like lying down more, although there is the danger that one will fall asleep)... so guess this tells me I should just find a better position, sit against a wall or something..
A chair that helps keep you sitting upright rather than slouching helps.
Bob wrote:

(circle above your Breast twice) and Amen (touch your breastbone.)

the circle is clockwise or anticlockwise, or doesn't matter?
Making the circle over toward the left (with your right hand) and under toward the right.
Bob wrote:

Connected to the Thyroid gland. Supposed to have to do with Clairaudio,.. Hearing abilities.
Ok, so here you got me . I wrote something about my strange hearing when I was writing about the languages and hearing sound and AP positions and stopping of the world. But decided it is not needed and that I might post it in some thread that goes with that topic. The info I linked on that chakra does not mention hearing abilities.. ah well. I still have that part so I am just pasting it here:
I also sometimes get into a mode of dual/double hearing. This was quite a blast when it first happened to me. I hear the sound with both ears while being aware of the sound stream that goes into each ear. So there was a duality to the sound, most of the sounds we hear are put together in our brain, as it is with eyes (while each eye sees a bit different image). So in one ear the sound comes a bit earlier or whatever, therefore it has an effect as if there were two vocals very close to each other. I was listening to music at the time and doing my stuff on comp and something was new, I found out that there is as if a repeating of the vocal (kind of like echo but not, if one knows the double whistle then it is like that. one hears 2 tones but both, they are not exactly made into one even when they are the same tone). I had not realized there was this kind of back/repeated vocal there. So I was playing it over and listening very closely. It was very nice with those other vocals in it, and I was quite taken with the fact that I did not notice before, thought it must be because of the bad comp speaker quality. Then somebody came in my room and said something. And I said something. And I was hearing all double. And there I was like !!.
Got a bit freaked out, thought what if this never stops lol. It did, lasted maybe half an hour. It happens from time to time, had it a lot of times already. Often it comes with a slight form of heightened awareness. It is hard to focus on conversation with more people when it happens. But in a room where there are people on more sides I guess it has some practical use, though I could not get a good control of it as of yet (not only has one to hear stuff one also has to sort it), cause usually I am doing other stuff and when in conversation I have to concentrate on that. I also have a slightly different space perception when this happens (but it does not mean what it says, goes on a different level). I have learned that the ears are important for mapping space. The ear is what we can use in our travels to other realms. I have just encountered this info, so cannot even say it better for myself. Most people know that in terms of the other perceptions that the eyes do a lot of things, but truly, the ears are also quite interesting .
I guess it is the auditory version of when we start seeing some object double when we do stuff with the eyes.
Some time after it had happened to me I remembered that in CC before he jumped into the abyss DJ and DG were each talking into one of his ears and his hearing was split. Felt a bit better to know it does not have to mean something is wrong with my ears .
I don't know whether the throat chakra or not. Just something I've read. I have had experiences with hearing but I've not noticed a connection there. I haven't felt that chakra much. The heart/breast I've felt and the Crown and third eye a lot. But that is the meditations that I am doing.
A lot of research into a new generation of headphones is now underway. The new generation with deal a lot more with the time lag that happens when one ear hears the sound slightly before the other and of slightly different environment. That is stereo and also stereo vision.
Our minds/brains actually are making up a third version that does not come in through our eyes or ears. It filters and interprets and creates moment by moment the world we are surrounded by. 
Like I said all sorts of weird stuff happens to people like us, and we just got to learn to take it at face value and learn to live with it. How do you function when you get into a different state for a couple of weeks? Must be pretty different world perception. I am still not medically sure if all is right with my ears, did not go see a doctor. But apart from those states my hearing is just as usual. Have had a bit higher sensitivity to pressure changes while flying though, but that only lately, not right after this happened for the first time, so might not be connected.
Could be something medical or just increased sensitivity and your noticing and observing the world differently. Paying more attention.
Apart from this stereo hearing I sometimes hear things (information) when I am in the in between state before waking up. Sometimes it is like what people think in connection to me, what they want to tell me. However, even if they might mean what they say at that moment, they could still not act on it. It depends on the character of the person I guess . Just like in the normal type of talk.. when someone can say they will do something and not do it in the end. I did not only hear these types of things, but I do not remember much, it is easy to forget in such a state, especially if one does not write it down immediately. And I also think it is best not to get fixated on such things..
I go through times where I hear a very soft voice as I am waking. I think it sounds like me. It is very quiet and soothing and tells me things. Explains things I am working on that I did not know. I don't always remember what it is teaching me but when I can I sit at the kitchen table for about a half hour having a cigarette and coffee and just let the ideas it brought interconnect with what I have already learned.
It is an entirely different way of thinking which takes no effort at all. Just listening. 
Bob wrote:

I've had similar things. For me, I think that it was a case of the base chakra being too activated and not having pulled up the enegy sufficiently. It got to the point for a time when every time I even thought about the Crown chakra the lower one would kick into gear automatically.
Interesting. So when this happened you just pulled it up and it was fine again? How does it happen that a chakra is too activated? (if you know..)
If I am walking around sexually aroused for no reason whatsoever it is too activated. lol. Same with if I am angry. Once it was very difficult to stop. It took some time.
But normally it helps to feel the heart chakra and inhale deeply while trying to pull up to crown. The heart or breast almost acts as a kind of fuel it seems to accomplish this. So does inhaling deeply.
Bob wrote:

All I am saying is that from my experience, the meaning of language falling away seems to be a signal of sorts that a person is crossing a specific barrier or veil.
The confusion of language at the tower of Babel was a significant place in human consciousness. As was the understanding of other tongues at Pentecost.
Interesting, again. I know the story of Babel, it is one of the most famous ones, so even I know it. Wasn't it presented as a bad thing in the Bible though? People building the tower to get to god, but the tower was blown down and they stopped understanding each other. With the interpretation put on it that it was a sort of punishment and preventing them to cooperate in such a way in the future.
The way you present it here it is truly organic with a state of consciousness and as such could be seen as a valid and good step on the stairway leading upwards where one wishes to climb. Then the element of punishment is off, but how about the striking down of the tower? how does that fit in? Is it like a sudden change in the perception of the person?
It relates to probably the greatest revelation in scriptures as far as I am concerned. We are either under the law or under grace. One (under the law) is accomplished by our own efforts. The work of our hands, the sweat of our brows etc. It is all through the bible. It will only get us so far.
The other, (grace,) is a gift and things come effortlessly as I described above concerning the voice. To acknowledge an intelligent Creator above all who is in control and has our best interests at heart.
To go from one mentality, the law mentality to the grace mentality is the toppling of the tower. The confusion of languages is that people who cannot accept the grace idea cannot understand what you are saying even if you explain it to them.



The Lighning Struck Tower sits on the path that crosses the Middle Pillar. It is a veil that needs to be gone through. It is a complete change in the structure or pattern of how we think. The idea of everything takes effort and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction must give way to the realization that everything is a gift.


 
The bolt from God that destroys our old structures and ideas is a gift. Not a punishment. It is enlightenment. It could apply loosely to stopping the world I suppose but it is a higher experience because it opens the way to higher planes of knowing.
The triangle of Hod Netsach and Yesod is the "Magical Triangle" and would have to do with The way of the occultist and natural magic etc. Above that would be the way of the mystical.

That the world comes tumbling down kind of? Reference to stopping the world? Or what you say at the end of your post that a lateral shift is not a higher plane of experience? "Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought. From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from."
I do not know the Pentecost story of understanding other tongues, so I googled . It connects to what Kaomea was mentioning in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread. Sigh . So would you say that first comes the Babel experience and then the Pentecost one? Or it does not matter what order they come in? Is it just a collection of APs one should have? How do you look at these experiences?
What would be the Pentecost experience? I read on wiki that each man could understand the apostles in their own language. Well, I know about 'the language of the soul' and one could say that all understand it, if they listen.. because the soul of each person understands it.
Bob wrote:

I think much of what don Juan called AP shifts happens because of feeling. Some people dance, some sing to bring on another state of mind. Maybe you do it by swithching languages and feeling with them. My teacher used to say, "To have an experience once it is just an experience. To have it twice, you have mastered it."
He also said to repeat an experience, you remember the feeling.
Yes, Feeling is crucial. I use feeling to get to the AP position. So one could say we have something like a feeling map. In dreaming if I have the feeling it serves me as a key to get to where I was. I actually use some scenes or even objects as keys, but it started off as pure feelings, the objects/scenes just help me keep/store them better. I can enter a dream I had a long time ago, if I have the key. This goes for waking life as well. I have to be quite careful because I can even bring back symptoms from an illness from my past if I go to the feeling that I had from it at that time (I move to the AP of the illness and I have the illness). So, if one has a key from real life to a past situation/memory it works the same. And vice versa, if one moves the AP to the place where one was before one remembers those memories. This I see often in dreams, I get somewhere and remember my other dreams. Or sometimes while recounting a dream I remember even parts of that dream or a connected dream that I had previously forgotten and have not noted in my dream journal.
The thing with people is that they only have a set of feelings that they use, therefore their feeling map is very rigid and limited. What people like us do is that we expand our feeling map by which I am basically saying we expand out range of AP positions.
Yes I can do it with language, but it is not my forte, so to speak. Although, it did help me have special experiences, hm. I know more languages and therefore I know that each have their own feeling, way of looking at the world and that even I am slightly different when in a different language mode/state. Here I am already crossing to what I was planning to say in the other thread. In my language we have a saying (translates a bit strangely but I will do it word for word anyway): "How many languages you know that many times you are a person." For sorcerers that would be translated into: From that many AP positions you can experience the world .
I do not know if twice is all it takes to master something though . Guess I am a bit lame . For example I have not mastered my double hearing and I have had it already many times.
Bob wrote:

I may not be understanding exactly what don Juan meant by a lateral shift but it has come to mean to me that it is not a "higher plane" experience, but what lies just beyond our five senses. A frightening chaotic world (maybe the sorcerer's description). Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought.
From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from.
So you would say that this stopping of language is just so that we realize that it is possible to experience the world in a different way? Do we have to stop the world just to realize that we do not belong into this world or the stopped world? This is a somewhat confusing thought if I write it.. Because where then do we belong.. How do we find this in between of things to pass through? It is like one feels something there, the edges..

[watergaze]

My whole reply when it was almost done got erased when my computer froze, sigh. Strangely enough the latter part turned up in the composing part of the reply message box when the page showed up on refresh, so at least I do not have to rewrite the whole of it . I might go into the sexual stuff sometime later, somewhere else. I had a look at the chakras and what they do, just in a sort of shorter recap, how it is when they are open, overactive/underactive, malfunctioning and blocked. I know I have problems with sacral and ‘door of life’ kidney center chakra. But generally I would not say my sexual center chakras are or were overactive, more likely blocked or malfunctioning or influenced by some other center that is currently having trouble. Plus I also see from what emotions this usually comes (which connects to Kidney center). I said the arousal is not connected to anything sexual, but it is always connected to something specific in my life. It seems to me I do not know how to deal with it, lead it out of the system properly and it goes into sexual arousal. I do not know what to do with it… (maybe you can give me some pointers later). First I will try the meditation tips that you gave me . I already did a shorter meditation yesterday in the woods.. stopped before losing control of my body because I was sitting above ground on a fallen tree .
It seems to me though that it really is a problem of the Kidney center.. I should search around for some ways to help it be more balanced..
Bob wrote:I suppose I have had more the lower centers open (at least before if not now), I remember Taisha being told that she walks funny because of some open lower centers (those talked about in balancing the double). That is normal. A totally "Natural" man is more concerned with lower things. It is not until we begin to look for something "else" do we begin to dewvelop in other areas. Man was created to be more than natural.
…
Most people do their thinking and sensing the world from somewhere below the solar plexus.
I meant the centers Taisha talks about:
“Taisha” wrote:“The first gate is in the sole of the foot, at the base of the big toe…
The second gate is the area that includes the calves (lytka) and the inner part of the knee..
The third is at the sexual organs and tailbone....
The fourth and the most important is in the area of the kidneys….
You have had the gates in your feet and calves partially open all your life.
"Another consequence of those lower centers being open is that you have trouble walking."
"Wait just a moment," I said, "there's nothing wrong with the way I walk. I practice martial arts. Clara told me that I move smoothly and gracefully."
At that he burst out laughing. "You can practice whatever you please," he retorted, "you still drag your feet when you walk. You have an old man's shuffle."”I understand there is a chakra in the soles of the feat that connects us to the Earth. I do not know what these two chakras/centers in the legs do, but I can say I have been walking strange .
Bob wrote:Interesting. So when this happened you just pulled it up and it was fine again? How does it happen that a chakra is too activated? (if you know..) If I am walking around sexually aroused for no reason whatsoever it is too activated. lol. Same with if I am angry. Once it was very difficult to stop. It took some time.
But normally it helps to feel the heart chakra and inhale deeply while trying to pull up to crown. The heart or breast almost acts as a kind of fuel it seems to accomplish this. So does inhaling deeply. Heh, you reply how you know it is too activated, but how does it become so? The technique you gave is for taking care of sexual energy that is where/when it should not be. Do you also have a way to strengthen certain centers? Do you just focus on that center and put consciousness there? What can one do? (if it is specific then I am most interested in the two mentioned centers. The Sacral: http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Sacral.htm and around the Kidneys http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/Door_of_Life.htm - “the Qabalistic correspondence here would be the lower part of the Sefirah Hod ”). If one has consciousness on the tip of the head is it good also for all the centers? If one lets the sexual energy pass through the body upward it might be good for the rest of the chakras that it passes through, hm?
Bob wrote:A lot of research into a new generation of headphones is now underway. The new generation with deal a lot more with the time lag that happens when one ear hears the sound slightly before the other and of slightly different environment. That is stereo and also stereo vision.
Our minds/brains actually are making up a third version that does not come in through our eyes or ears. It filters and interprets and creates moment by moment the world we are surrounded by. Exactly, that is why I was talking about it in connection to stopping of the world, it is a stopping of the usual interpretation/blending of our senses that we are doing without even being aware, it is automatic.
The new generation of headphones you say... So those would be like if I put them on during my double hearing then it would be perfect, because it counts with these delays of one ear over the other?
Bob wrote:I go through times where I hear a very soft voice as I am waking. I think it sounds like me. It is very quiet and soothing and tells me things. Explains things I am working on that I did not know. I don't always remember what it is teaching me but when I can I sit at the kitchen table for about a half hour having a cigarette and coffee and just let the ideas it brought interconnect with what I have already learned.
It is an entirely different way of thinking which takes no effort at all. Just listening.Sounds practical and magical . My version is as if connecting to the soul/heart of the others (the sad thing is they do not always do what their hearts/souls tell them). I still have to find/hear/listen to the self I guess... I did hear some things of interest to me as well, but it was a male voice that is not a voice from another person I know. I did not hear myself.. I was thinking it could have been the dream emissary as CC talks about that… Plus one of my allies told me it was an inorganic (it basically showed me a big statue and told me that is also its form. Later I found Castaneda and read about the energetic forms of inorganics, one of which was like the statue… I went and asked this ally if he was inorganic and it said yes. I do not really know what to make of that). But since your voice is you and not the dream emissary, then mine does not have to be either . This was before I started hearing the voices of others I know in such a way as if they were telling me something connected to them (but also somehow connected to me, for example if I was wondering about something etc).
Bob wrote:It relates to probably the greatest revelation in scriptures as far as I am concerned. We are either under the law or under grace. One (under the law) is accomplished by our own efforts. The work of our hands, the sweat of our brows etc. It is all through the bible. It will only get us so far.
The other, (grace,) is a gift and things come effortlessly as I described above concerning the voice. To acknowledge an intelligent Creator above all who is in control and has our best interests at heart.
To go from one mentality, the law mentality to the grace mentality is the toppling of the tower. The confusion of languages is that people who cannot accept the grace idea cannot understand what you are saying even if you explain it to them.Yes, it is the balance of giving vs. receiving. We need to be able to receive gifts that are given - grace. Some people are so goal oriented they do not have this option in their lives so to speak. Therefore they do not see/believe these gifts can be given, thus they block them… I am surely not as open as I could be, but I am getting there..

This I understand (well not the middle pillar stuff specifically, but the general idea that is behind it):
Bob wrote:The Lighning Struck Tower sits on the path that crosses the Middle Pillar. It is a veil that needs to be gone through. It is a complete change in the structure or pattern of how we think. The idea of everything takes effort and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction must give way to the realization that everything is a gift.

The Lighning Struck Tower sits on the path that crosses the Middle Pillar. It is a veil that needs to be gone through. It is a complete change in the structure or pattern of how we think. The idea of everything takes effort and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction must give way to the realization that everything is a gift.

The bolt from God that destroys our old structures and ideas is a gift. Not a punishment. It is enlightenment. It could apply loosely to stopping the world I suppose but it is a higher experience because it opens the way to higher planes of knowing.
The triangle of Hod Netsach and Yesod is the "Magical Triangle" and would have to do with The way of the occultist and natural magic etc. Above that would be the way of the mystical.To make better sense of what you said I went to the 'Being open to power' thread, where you explained a bit of the tree. I thought the middle pillar is what goes through Malkuth, Yesod, Tiphareth, Daath and Kether. The tarot card of the tower of Bable on the Path between Yesod and Hod. But now I realized you write a path that crosses the middle pillar .Well it goes to Yesod, so I did not really understand it as crossing. Crossing the Middle Pillar would have been for me for example the Netzach-Hod path. Well, glad it makes sense anyhow . As such this tower of Babel experience is important for sorcerers as well. I remember you said that a sorcerer lives within those first four 'bubbles' (but appreciate you giving the edit on it as well, it is hard to understand/keep in memory so much new information)
So a mystic then has to go through/experience all the paths apart from the 4 that are going from Hod-Geburath-Binah and Netzach-Chesed-Chokmah?
Hm you say in the other thread:
Bob wrote:The man of knowledge or mystic tries to live in Tipareth which has access through the paths (awarenesses) to the entire tree.But doesn’t the whole tree have access to the entire tree through other paths? I do see how being in the middle looks most practical though, in terms of accessibility and balance .

So basically you know (Quabala shows/tells) what ‘veils’ need to be gone through on every path connecting the various ‘bubbles’? Sounds like a very good thing to be aware of… There are 22 cards. Does each card symbolize a ‘veil’ one has to go through, like the tower of Babel card?

[ninth octave]

Then the Lord God made every tree grow "that is pleasant to the sight and good for food." And among these trees he ALSO planted the Tree of Life AND the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. According to the Kabbalah , the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is in the MIDDLE COLUMN of the TREE OF LIFE. Therefore the TWO TREES ARE ONE IN REALITY.
Jesus is  there in the very center 6  TIPHARETH  BEAUTY Jesus is the Tree of Life that all will try to seek and find at  the end of their path. "Blessed are those whom know the end from the beginning."'

[Bob May]

Bob May wrote:
watergaze wrote:

Then somebody came in my room and said something. And I said something. And I was hearing all double. And there I was like !!.
Got a bit freaked out, thought what if this never stops lol. It did, lasted maybe half an hour. It happens from time to time, had it a lot of times already. Often it comes with a slight form of heightened awareness. It is hard to focus on conversation with more people when it happens. But in a room where there are people on more sides I guess it has some practical use, though I could not get a good control of it as of yet (not only has one to hear stuff one also has to sort it), cause usually I am doing other stuff and when in conversation I have to concentrate on that. I also have a slightly different space perception when this happens (but it does not mean what it says, goes on a different level). I have learned that the ears are important for mapping space. The ear is what we can use in our travels to other realms. I have just encountered this info, so cannot even say it better for myself. Most people know that in terms of the other perceptions that the eyes do a lot of things, but truly, the ears are also quite interesting .
I guess it is the auditory version of when we start seeing some object double when we do stuff with the eyes.
Some time after it had happened to me I remembered that in CC before he jumped into the abyss DJ and DG were each talking into one of his ears and his hearing was split. Felt a bit better to know it does not have to mean something is wrong with my ears .

I don't like going to parties, social events etc., since that time period. If I have to attend a wedding or something like that where there are large groups of people, I tend to concentrate on one person and one conversation. Otherwise it can become very disconcerting. 

Apart from this stereo hearing I sometimes hear things (information) when I am in the in between state before waking up. Sometimes it is like what people think in connection to me, what they want to tell me. However, even if they might mean what they say at that moment, they could still not act on it. It depends on the character of the person I guess . Just like in the normal type of talk.. when someone can say they will do something and not do it in the end. I did not only hear these types of things, but I do not remember much, it is easy to forget in such a state, especially if one does not write it down immediately. And I also think it is best not to get fixated on such things..
I think it is best not to get too fixated on anything. There are far too many various phenomena involved in these various awakenings. whether the result of chakras opening or just becoming more aware of people and their motives which seem to be laid bare to our eyes at times.
Some experiences are very difficult to remember. It is almost as if the mode of thought doesn't mesh with normal waking consciousness.


All I am saying is that from my experience, the meaning of language falling away seems to be a signal of sorts that a person is crossing a specific barrier or veil.
The confusion of language at the tower of Babel was a significant place in human consciousness. As was the understanding of other tongues at Pentecost.
Interesting, again. I know the story of Babel, it is one of the most famous ones, so even I know it. Wasn't it presented as a bad thing in the Bible though? People building the tower to get to god, but the tower was blown down and they stopped understanding each other. With the interpretation put on it that it was a sort of punishment and preventing them to cooperate in such a way in the future.
The way you present it here it is truly organic with a state of consciousness and as such could be seen as a valid and good step on the stairway leading upwards where one wishes to climb. Then the element of punishment is off, but how about the striking down of the tower? how does that fit in? Is it like a sudden change in the perception of the person?
It relates to probably the greatest revelation in scriptures as far as I am concerned. We are either under the law or under grace. One (under the law) is accomplished by our own efforts. The work of our hands, the sweat of our brows etc. It is all through the bible. It will only get us so far.
The other, (grace,) is a gift and things come effortlessly as I described above concerning the voice. To acknowledge an intelligent Creator above all who is in control and has our best interests at heart.
To go from one mentality, the law mentality to the grace mentality is the toppling of the tower. The confusion of languages is that people who cannot accept the grace idea cannot understand what you are saying even if you explain it to them.



The bolt from God that destroys our old structures and ideas is a gift. Not a punishment. It is enlightenment. It could apply loosely to stopping the world I suppose but it is a higher experience because it opens the way to higher planes of knowing.
The triangle of Hod Netsach and Yesod is the "Magical Triangle" and would have to do with The way of the occultist and natural magic etc. Above that would be the way of the mystical.

That the world comes tumbling down kind of? Reference to stopping the world? Or what you say at the end of your post that a lateral shift is not a higher plane of experience? "Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought. From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from."
I do not know the Pentecost story of understanding other tongues, so I googled . It connects to what Kaomea was mentioning in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread. Sigh . So would you say that first comes the Babel experience and then the Pentecost one? Or it does not matter what order they come in? Is it just a collection of APs one should have? How do you look at these experiences?
What would be the Pentecost experience? I read on wiki that each man could understand the apostles in their own language. Well, I know about 'the language of the soul' and one could say that all understand it, if they listen.. because the soul of each person understands it.
You have it right there in that you said everyone understood what the Apostles said in their own tongue. That was the miracle. If you go to Pentacostal churches they make a show of speaking in other tongues. But the real miracle was one of an opening of awareness. The understanding of other tongues.
I had an experience once in which I woke up dreaming. The dream kept going even though I was awake and walking around. I was in such an alternate and alien state of mind that it is difficult to describe. But what happened was that there were letters written in white light floating in the air above me. They were of a different language and I would guess they were ancient Hebrew. But here is the weird part. The letters were alive and conscious. They were living beings. 
They arranged themselves into verses from the bible and I instantly understood them with a clarity that I had never before or since known. They were verses that I had known previously but had never understood. All I could think was, "Why hadn't I understood this before? It is plain as day and it says exactly what it means.
As soon as It would dawn on me the letters would laugh at me and rearrange themselves again. I would then forget the previous verse and be overwhelmed by the realisation of the next verse. Then it would happen again. This went on over and over again for about 10 to 20 minutes. I had sat on the floor with my back against the wall, completely stunned and staring at the laughing dancing letters.
When it was over, I could not retain any of the specific verses. Just the sense of Clarity that had come.
I do not speak any language but English. I know a few words in Hebrew and the letters. That is all.
So you would say that this stopping of language is just so that we realize that it is possible to experience the world in a different way?
Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog was the most important thing he had taught Carlos and that all of the other things, (Not doing, erasing personal history etc., etc.) and that these things were just meant to accelerate that stopping of the internal dialog.
The bible says, "Be still and know that I am God."
Jesus said, "..


Lu 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
So, yes we do stop speaking inside ourselves to experience the world in other than "normal" ways.
Do we have to stop the world just to realize that we do not belong into this world or the stopped world? This is a somewhat confusing thought if I write it.. Because where then do we belong.. How do we find this in between of things to pass through? It is like one feels something there, the edges..
Again, We all tend to build towers of sorts. We work our way to heaven (or believe we do.) Moses brought the Law.
Jesus came to show us that it is available now. "The kingdom of God is at hand." 
He came bringing Grace and Truth. Grace means a gift and it also means Influence or influx from God.
Jesus said that all he did and said was from the Father. That is all of his knowledge and power.
He also said that he came from the Father and was returning to him.
He also said to follow him.
The in between is the awareness of Grace and Truth. That is the path of the mystic. That is the middle pillar of the tree of life which is called the pillar of Grace. The two side pillars are called Mildness and Severity.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/pdf/mystical_qabala.pdf
Above is a link to the Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune. It is the best book that I have found on the subject. I don't go too deeply into the subject but only use it as an overall pattern. The basics. There are many books out there and it can be confusing. I've read many but this one is very basic and yet very deep.
My teacher was a retired aeronautical engineer and he used the analogy that the bible was the mystic's hand book, (like an engineer's handbook) and the Qabalah was his slide rule.
You asked, "Do we have to stop the world in order to experience another world?"
My answer is, "If we experience another world, we have stopped the world."
But I don't believe it has to be the confusing and frightening experience that I went though. I knew nothing about a loving God when it first happened to me.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:
Then the Lord God made every tree grow "that is pleasant to the sight and good for food." And among these trees he ALSO planted the Tree of Life AND the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. According to the Kabbalah , the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is in the MIDDLE COLUMN of the TREE OF LIFE. Therefore the TWO TREES ARE ONE IN REALITY.
Jesus is  there in the very center 6  TIPHARETH  BEAUTY Jesus is the Tree of Life that all will try to seek and find at  the end of their path. "Blessed are those whom know the end from the beginning."' 
Hi Ninth,
Is that quote from the Gospel of Thomas?
I would look at that the other way around. The middle pillar of Grace would be closer to the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the garden.
Actually it is probably both depending on how you use it or look at it.
Grace vs. Law again. For every Sephirah except the first two there are vises and virtues. Good and Evil.
But both trees are in the "midst of the garden. So, yes it could be that the two trees are one and the same.


Ge 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


 

Ge 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
  
The river that flows out of the dress of the High Priestess begins in the ocean behind her. Her feet are on the moon which is Yesod and she sits between the two side pillars of the Tree of life. She being the middle pillar. The veils behind her has the image of the Tree of Life printed upon it and symbolises the veil into the Holy of Holies that was torn from top to bottom (meaning God did it rather than man.) when Jesus died on the cross.
You can see evidence of that river in the other Tarot Cards as streams and pools of water etc., coming down the Tree. But the Middle Pillar is connected to the Source. The "Holiest place of all."
The reason I say that it is how you use this knowledge is because Jesus came to show us a way to think and interrelate with the world around us that puts us on this middle pillar. The pillar of Grace.
Before he came the general idea of God was a wrathful Deity that you had better obey and that was to be feared.
But Jesus demonstrated that God loves those who he created and provides for them and wishes to communicate with them.
Jesus, when on this earth as a human being functioned from Tiphareth (the Christ center). He had direct access to all of the knowledge of the Father. And all of the powers and knowledge of the entire tree.
That is what he was teaching us. How to function from there.
When we get an awareness of what Grace is we begin to function more and more from that awareness. And begin to realize the Tree of Life.
When we function from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Do good Get good do evil get evil we are constantly condemned because we cannot live up to God's standard of perfection.
"Consider the ravens who neither sow nor reap yet God provides for them." This is completely opposite Moses' Law of, "..as you sow, so shall you reap."
Two realities. Two trees. One leads to life, the other to death.

[Bob May]

watergaze wrote:

To make better sense of what you said I went to the 'Being open to power' thread, where you explained a bit of the tree. I thought the middle pillar is what goes through Malkuth, Yesod, Tiphareth, Daath and Kether. The tarot card of the tower of Bable on the Path between Yesod and Hod. But now I realized you write a path that crosses the middle pillar .Well it goes to Yesod, so I did not really understand it as crossing. Crossing the Middle Pillar would have been for me for example the Netzach-Hod path. Well, glad it makes sense anyhow .
It is hard to show because the cards are too big to fit on the tree. But the tower card does go from Netzach to Hod.
I have not seen it written anywhere but it is my opinion that these three paths that cross the middle pillar are blocks or veils of sorts. That is my opinion. That does not mean they are bad things. Each path symbolises a subjective awareness. We can have these awarenesses whether we know anything about the Qabalah or not. The Paths are more subjective and the Sephiroth are more objective. Paths are an opening of our awarenesses and Sephiroth are opening us to Power.
The tower seems to fit perfectly with the awareness of Grace which, if you do not get an understanding of, will stop your progression. It colors the entire bible, and our awareness of the nature of God. This is why I said that a cross path (or horizontal path crossing the Middle Pillar) can actually act as a veil also even though it is an actual subjective awareness. Like I said just my opinion based upon my own experience.
As such this tower of Babel experience is important for sorcerers as well. I remember you said that a sorcerer lives within those first four 'bubbles' (but appreciate you giving the edit on it as well, it is hard to understand/keep in memory so much new information)
So a mystic then has to go through/experience all the paths apart from the 4 that are going from Hod-Geburath-Binah and Netzach-Chesed-Chokmah?
Hm you say in the other thread:
An occultist or magician by certain ceremonies (if the ceremonies even work) tries to go to every path and Sephirah in order going up the tree. That is why your hear of 33rd degree Masons and such things.
A Mystic is constantly keeping his mind on the goal of the Source. The Creator. In traveling this "Middle Pillar" he gains the knowledge of the side pillars and Paths and Sephiroth. It's automatic. 
Bob wrote:

The man of knowledge or mystic tries to live in Tipareth which has access through the paths (awarenesses) to the entire tree.But doesn’t the whole tree have access to the entire tree through other paths? I do see how being in the middle looks most practical though, in terms of accessibility and balance .
No, we all live in the Tree and have the tree in us as we are all created in God's image. Does your plumber have access to the entire tree? Maybe he does. I don't know the guy. My point is most people spend their entire lives aware of only the physical  world of Malkuth and the psychological word of Yesod. Sorcerers and magicians etc., are dealing with second attention. There is the realm of the triangle of Netzach, Hod and Yesod.
Don Juan did not want Carlos to get stuck there. He wanted him to find the way through to Man of Knowledge.
Jesus was teaching how to live in Tiphareth. If those two are not exactly the same, they do sound quite similar.
So basically you know (Quabala shows/tells) what ‘veils’ need to be gone through on every path connecting the various ‘bubbles’? Sounds like a very good thing to be aware of… There are 22 cards. Does each card symbolize a ‘veil’ one has to go through, like the tower of Babel card?
There are 22 letters in the Hebrew Alphabet. They are Principles of Creation. There are 22 Major Arcana Tarot Cards. They also represent these Principles. There is an ancient fable in the Hebrew that speaks of the letters all lining up to see which one would be the first in the bible.
I related the experience I had where the letters were living beings that came to me and opened my awareness to some things I had never known.
One of which was that they were living beings.
Like I said we can have these experiences without any knowledge of the Qabalah. But the Qabalah has been buit upon over the centuries by those who have experienced some things and related those things to the bible.
The tradition says that the Qabalah was first taught to Man by angels. After having the experience that I related above I can see that could very well be true.
My teacher used to say it is like a wiring diagram. It shows relationships. If you take a wiring diagram of your TV set and compare it to the inside of the back of your TV, it doesn't look anything like it. But the lines symbolizing the wiring tell which components are connected to which other components.
So, in the same way, the Tree of Life Glyph shows how these Principles of creation both within us (our bodies and consciousness and even relationships with others) and the world around us interelate to each other.
It is how things work.

[ninth octave]

Bob May wrote:
ninth octave wrote:

Then the Lord God made every tree grow "that is pleasant to the sight and good for food." And among these trees he ALSO planted the Tree of Life AND the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. According to the Kabbalah , the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is in the MIDDLE COLUMN of the TREE OF LIFE. Therefore the TWO TREES ARE ONE IN REALITY.
Jesus is  there in the very center 6  TIPHARETH  BEAUTY Jesus is the Tree of Life that all will try to seek and find at  the end of their path. "Blessed are those whom know the end from the beginning."' 
Hi Ninth,
Is that quote from the Gospel of Thomas?
Yes something like it. Meaning going back to the origin -the beginning to know God

Gospel of Thomas 18: "The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be,"Jesus said, 'Have you discovered , then the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he will take this place in the beginning, he will know the end and will not experience death."
I would look at that the other way around. The middle pillar of Grace would be closer to the Tree of Life which is in the midst will take t of the garden.
Actually it is probably both depending on how you use it or look at it.
Grace vs. Law again. For every Sephirah except the first two there are vises and virtues. Good and Evil.
It was a great revelation to know these two trees grew out of each other. The tree was both Good and Evil but inside the midst of it appeared another tree in the  middle coloumm.  Castaneda knew there was an eagle that sat atop the tree. I will find the book and page where he acknowledges this. Jesus is the Eagle beckoning us to climb the Tree of Life by returning to the origin- the Garden, aka. Paradise to live in communion once again like Adam and Eve had done so before their fall.
But both trees are in the "midst of the garden. So, yes it could be that the two trees are one and the same.


Ge 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


 

Ge 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
  
The river that flows out of the dress of the High Priestess begins in the ocean behind her. Her feet are on the moon which is Yesod and she sits between the two side pillars of the Tree of life. She being the middle pillar. The veils behind her has the image of the Tree of Life printed upon it and symbolises the veil into the Holy of Holies that was torn from top to bottom (meaning God did it rather than man.) when Jesus died on the cross.
You can see evidence of that river in the other Tarot Cards as streams and pools of water etc., coming down the Tree. But the Middle Pillar is connected to the Source. The "Holiest place of all."
The reason I say that it is how you use this knowledge is because Jesus came to show us a way to think and interrelate with the world around us that puts us on this middle pillar. The pillar of Grace.
Before he came the general idea of God was a wrathful Deity that you had better obey and that was to be feared.
But Jesus demonstrated that God loves those who he created and provides for them and wishes to communicate with them.
Jesus, when on this earth as a human being functioned from Tiphareth (the Christ center). He had direct access to all of the knowledge of the Father. And all of the powers and knowledge of the entire tree.
That is what he was teaching us. How to function from there.
When we get an awareness of what Grace is we begin to function more and more from that awareness. And begin to realize the Tree of Life.
When we function from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Do good Get good do evil get evil we are constantly condemned because we cannot live up to God's standard of perfection.
"Consider the ravens who neither sow nor reap yet God provides for them." This is completely opposite Moses' Law of, "..as you sow, so shall you reap."
Two realities. Two trees. One leads to life, the other to death.      Feminine -Passive    //  Equilibrium     //  Male -Active 
         Left Pillar                 Middle Pillar         Right Pillar   
        Judgement                  Mildness                Mercy  

Jesus was teaching and showing his fellow Jews that the keys to the kingdom that begins from within the person as this path will lead to The Tree of Life. Jesus is the middle pillar way as everyone that was still operating inside the law of Moses( judgement side of the  left pillar )  . The Spirit fulfilled  the improbability of obediance to the law of Moses, by bestowing grace and mercy and justice upon the Jew and Gentile. By polarizing both the left pillar ( judgement ) and right pillar( mercy) the equalizer of  Mildness is found inside the Middle Pillar way. Jesus is the Tree of Life when one is seeking the path of the middle way.

[ninth octave]

Don Juan had said that when their seeing became still more sophisticated and effective, they realized that  will  was the force that kept the Eagles's emanation separated and even not only responsible for our awareness, but also for everything in the universe. They decided then that  intent  was a more appropriate name for it than  will.  In the long run, however, the name proved  disadvantageous, because it does not describe its overwhelming importance nor the living connection it has with everything in the universe.
Don Juan had asserted that over great collective flaw its that we live our lives completely disregarding that connection.  The busyness of our lives, our relentless interests, concerns, hopes frustrations, and fears take precedence, and on a day-to-day basis we are unaware of being linked to everything else.
Don Juan had stated his belief that the Christian idea of being out from the Garden of Eden sounded to him like an  allegory for losing our  silent knowledge, knowledge of intent.  Sorcery, then was a going back to the beginning, a return to paradise.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:

Jesus was teaching and showing his fellow Jews that the keys to the kingdom that begins from within the person as this path will lead to The Tree of Life. Jesus is the middle pillar way as everyone that was still operating inside the law of Moses( judgement side of the  left pillar )  . The Spirit fulfilled  the improbability of obediance to the law of Moses, by bestowing grace and mercy and justice upon the Jew and Gentile. By polarizing both the left pillar ( judgement ) and right pillar( mercy) the equalizer of  Mildness is found inside the Middle Pillar way. Jesus is the Tree of Life when one is seeking the path of the middle way.

 


Joh 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.




Joh 1:50
Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.


 

Joh 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:

Don Juan had said that when their seeing became still more sophisticated and effective, they realized that  will  was the force that kept the Eagles's emanation separated and even not only responsible for our awareness, but also for everything in the universe. They decided then that  intent  was a more appropriate name for it than  will.  In the long run, however, the name proved  disadvantageous, because it does not describe its overwhelming importance nor the living connection it has with everything in the universe.
Don Juan had asserted that over great collective flaw its that we live our lives completely disregarding that connection.  The busyness of our lives, our relentless interests, concerns, hopes frustrations, and fears take precedence, and on a day-to-day basis we are unaware of being linked to everything else.
Don Juan had stated his belief that the Christian idea of being out from the Garden of Eden sounded to him like an  allegory for losing our  silent knowledge, knowledge of intent.  Sorcery, then was a going back to the beginning, a return to paradise.  
"Think of the great bands as being like trees. All of them bear fruit; they produce containers filled with emanations; yet only eight of those trees bear edible fruit, that is, bubbles of awareness. Seven have sour fruit, but edible nonetheless, and one has the most juicy, luscious fruit there is."
He laughed and said that in his analogy he had taken the point of view of the Eagle, for whom the most delectable morsels are the organic bubbles of awareness.
"what makes those eight bands produce awareness?" I asked    
"The Eagle bestows awareness through it's emanations," he replied.
His answer made me argue with him. I told him to say that the eagle bestows awareness through it's emanations is like what a religious man would say about God, that God bestows life through love. It does not mean anything.
 "The two statements are not made from the same point of view," he patiently said, "And yet I think they mean the same thing. 
The difference is that seers see how the Eagle bestows awareness through it's emanations and the religious men don't see how God bestows His life through his love." 
Don Juan is stating that a religious man does not see as a seer does. This is a blanket statement. I would agree because a Mystic or Christian seer is not religious in the normal use of the word.
But I see parallels with the Coat of many colors and Jacob's Ladder with his description here of the three Great Bands of Emanations. Also with the promise of that vision to Nathanael stated in the post before this one. The description holds true right down to the color pink running through the middle of this phenomena.
And pink and amber are the colors of the Sphere of Tipareth depending on which world is experienced. Pink and amber are the colors described by don Juan.
The angels ascending and descending in the form of the letter Yod as "cloven tongues of fire." I saw all of the colors of the rainbow but down the middle the hues stayed in the range of colors of pink though many varying shades of it.
This connects it also with the Pentecost experience.
So I see Jacob, Joseph, Jesus, Nathanael, don Juan, the 120 disciples at Pentecost and myself as witnesses to the same or very similar Spiritual experience.

[ninth octave]

Bob May wrote:
Bob May wrote:

watergaze wrote:

Then somebody came in my room and said something. And I said something. And I was hearing all double. And there I was like !!.
Got a bit freaked out, thought what if this never stops lol. It did, lasted maybe half an hour. It happens from time to time, had it a lot of times already. Often it comes with a slight form of heightened awareness. It is hard to focus on conversation with more people when it happens. But in a room where there are people on more sides I guess it has some practical use, though I could not get a good control of it as of yet (not only has one to hear stuff one also has to sort it), cause usually I am doing other stuff and when in conversation I have to concentrate on that. I also have a slightly different space perception when this happens (but it does not mean what it says, goes on a different level). I have learned that the ears are important for mapping space. The ear is what we can use in our travels to other realms. I have just encountered this info, so cannot even say it better for myself. Most people know that in terms of the other perceptions that the eyes do a lot of things, but truly, the ears are also quite interesting .
I guess it is the auditory version of when we start seeing some object double when we do stuff with the eyes.
Some time after it had happened to me I remembered that in CC before he jumped into the abyss DJ and DG were each talking into one of his ears and his hearing was split. Felt a bit better to know it does not have to mean something is wrong with my ears .

I don't like going to parties, social events etc., since that time period. If I have to attend a wedding or something like that where there are large groups of people, I tend to concentrate on one person and one conversation. Otherwise it can become very disconcerting. 

Apart from this stereo hearing I sometimes hear things (information) when I am in the in between state before waking up. Sometimes it is like what people think in connection to me, what they want to tell me. However, even if they might mean what they say at that moment, they could still not act on it. It depends on the character of the person I guess . Just like in the normal type of talk.. when someone can say they will do something and not do it in the end. I did not only hear these types of things, but I do not remember much, it is easy to forget in such a state, especially if one does not write it down immediately. And I also think it is best not to get fixated on such things..
I think it is best not to get too fixated on anything. There are far too many various phenomena involved in these various awakenings. whether the result of chakras opening or just becoming more aware of people and their motives which seem to be laid bare to our eyes at times.
Some experiences are very difficult to remember. It is almost as if the mode of thought doesn't mesh with normal waking consciousness.
Interesting, again. I know the story of Babel, it is one of the most famous ones, so even I know it. Wasn't it presented as a bad thing in the Bible though? People building the tower to get to god, but the tower was blown down and they stopped understanding each other. With the interpretation put on it that it was a sort of punishment and preventing them to cooperate in such a way in the future.
The way you present it here it is truly organic with a state of consciousness and as such could be seen as a valid and good step on the stairway leading upwards where one wishes to climb. Then the element of punishment is off, but how about the striking down of the tower? how does that fit in? Is it like a sudden change in the perception of the person?
It relates to probably the greatest revelation in scriptures as far as I am concerned. We are either under the law or under grace. One (under the law) is accomplished by our own efforts. The work of our hands, the sweat of our brows etc. It is all through the bible. It will only get us so far.
The other, (grace,) is a gift and things come effortlessly as I described above concerning the voice. To acknowledge an intelligent Creator above all who is in control and has our best interests at heart.
To go from one mentality, the law mentality to the grace mentality is the toppling of the tower. The confusion of languages is that people who cannot accept the grace idea cannot understand what you are saying even if you explain it to them.



The bolt from God that destroys our old structures and ideas is a gift. Not a punishment. It is enlightenment. It could apply loosely to stopping the world I suppose but it is a higher experience because it opens the way to higher planes of knowing.
The triangle of Hod Netsach and Yesod is the "Magical Triangle" and would have to do with The way of the occultist and natural magic etc. Above that would be the way of the mystical.

That the world comes tumbling down kind of? Reference to stopping the world? Or what you say at the end of your post that a lateral shift is not a higher plane of experience? "Not a goal in itself except to show us that there is more to existence than we first thought. From there we can compare and know that neither the world of sorcerers or ordinary men is where we belong or where we came from."
I do not know the Pentecost story of understanding other tongues, so I googled . It connects to what Kaomea was mentioning in the 'Ancient Tongues' thread. Sigh . So would you say that first comes the Babel experience and then the Pentecost one? Or it does not matter what order they come in? Is it just a collection of APs one should have? How do you look at these experiences?
What would be the Pentecost experience? I read on wiki that each man could understand the apostles in their own language. Well, I know about 'the language of the soul' and one could say that all understand it, if they listen.. because the soul of each person understands it.
You have it right there in that you said everyone understood what the Apostles said in their own tongue. That was the miracle. If you go to Pentacostal churches they make a show of speaking in other tongues. But the real miracle was one of an opening of awareness. The understanding of other tongues.
I had an experience once in which I woke up dreaming. The dream kept going even though I was awake and walking around. I was in such an alternate and alien state of mind that it is difficult to describe. But what happened was that there were letters written in white light floating in the air above me. They were of a different language and I would guess they were ancient Hebrew. But here is the weird part. The letters were alive and conscious. They were living beings. 
They arranged themselves into verses from the bible and I instantly understood them with a clarity that I had never before or since known. They were verses that I had known previously but had never understood. All I could think was, "Why hadn't I understood this before? It is plain as day and it says exactly what it means.
As soon as It would dawn on me the letters would laugh at me and rearrange themselves again. I would then forget the previous verse and be overwhelmed by the realisation of the next verse. Then it would happen again. This went on over and over again for about 10 to 20 minutes. I had sat on the floor with my back against the wall, completely stunned and staring at the laughing dancing letters.
When it was over, I could not retain any of the specific verses. Just the sense of Clarity that had come.
I do not speak any language but English. I know a few words in Hebrew and the letters. That is all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey Bob,

Your waking dream about those Hebrew letters of light is awesome. Espescially more awesome when I also had this similiar experience in a prayer request for the peace and harmony and prosperity of Israel and Palestine.  About three years ago I had a visual of these "letters of light"  peeling off and lifting from the pages of the New Testament. They were written in the familiar native tongue of both Palestinine and Jew. These letters were  floating in the wind ( by the power of the Holy Spirit) and  accumelating in both Palestinian and Jewish  peoples backyards. It was such an awesome sight that they  were urgent  to gather and collect them each  from everyone's own  backyard. Especially in the Gaza Strip were they all  met up to piece their letters of light together .. They were truly moved  and  began to truly understand  the meaning of the God spell . Everyone partiscipated and found  that each individual letter of light began to form whole words and  then sentences that made them  made them want to understand and have compassion on each other. This is my contiuuing prayer for Israel and Palestine.
  So you would say that this stopping of language is just so that we realize that it is possible to experience the world in a different way?
Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog was the most important thing he had taught Carlos and that all of the other things, (Not doing, erasing personal history etc., etc.) and that these things were just meant to accelerate that stopping of the internal dialog.
The bible says, "Be still and know that I am God."
Jesus said, "..


Lu 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
So, yes we do stop speaking inside ourselves to experience the world in other than "normal" ways.
Do we have to stop the world just to realize that we do not belong into this world or the stopped world? This is a somewhat confusing thought if I write it.. Because where then do we belong.. How do we find this in between of things to pass through? It is like one feels something there, the edges..
Again, We all tend to build towers of sorts. We work our way to heaven (or believe we do.) Moses brought the Law.
Jesus came to show us that it is available now. "The kingdom of God is at hand." 
He came bringing Grace and Truth. Grace means a gift and it also means Influence or influx from God.
Jesus said that all he did and said was from the Father. That is all of his knowledge and power.
He also said that he came from the Father and was returning to him.
He also said to follow him.
The in between is the awareness of Grace and Truth. That is the path of the mystic. That is the middle pillar of the tree of life which is called the pillar of Grace. The two side pillars are called Mildness and Severity.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/pdf/mystical_qabala.pdf
Above is a link to the Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune. It is the best book that I have found on the subject. I don't go too deeply into the subject but only use it as an overall pattern. The basics. There are many books out there and it can be confusing. I've read many but this one is very basic and yet very deep.
My teacher was a retired aeronautical engineer and he used the analogy that the bible was the mystic's hand book, (like an engineer's handbook) and the Qabalah was his slide rule.
You asked, "Do we have to stop the world in order to experience another world?"
My answer is, "If we experience another world, we have stopped the world."
But I don't believe it has to be the confusing and frightening experience that I went though. I knew nothing about a loving God when it first happened to me.

[Bob May]

Those whose name he knew first were called last, so that the one who has knowledge is he whose name the Father has pronounced. For he whose name has not been spoken is ignorant. Indeed, how shall one hear if his name has not been uttered? For he who remains ignorant until the end is a creature of forgetfulness and will perish with it. If this is not so, why have these wretches no name, why do they have no sound? Hence, if one has knowledge, he is from above. If he is called, he hears, he replies, and he turns toward him who called him and he ascends to him and he knows what he is called. Since he has knowledge, he does the will of him who called him. He desires to please him and he finds rest. He receives a certain name. He who thus is going to have knowledge knows whence he came and whither he is going. He knows it as a person who, having become intoxicated, has turned from his drunkenness and having come to himself, has restored what is his own.

He has turned many from error. He went before them to their own places, from which they departed when they erred because of the depth of him who surrounds every place, whereas there is nothing which surrounds him. It was a great wonder that they were in the Father without knowing him and that they were able to leave on their own, since they were not able to contain him and know him in whom they were, for indeed his will had not come forth from him. For he revealed it as a knowledge with which all its emanations agree, namely, the knowledge of the living book which he revealed to the Aeons at last as his letters, displaying to them that these are not merely vowels nor consonants, so that one may read them and think of something void of meaning; on the contrary, they are letters which convey the truth. They are pronounced only when they are known. Each letter is a perfect truth like a perfect book, for they are letters written by the hand of the unity, since the Father wrote them for the Aeons, so that they by means of his letters might come to know the Father.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/got.html
Later in this book it is written that if you can read the book, you are written in the book. And if you are written in the book, you can read it. It is called the living book and I believe it refers to both the bible and this world we live in. Or, rather, it can be read by observing this world we live in if we observe it in the correct way.
Scripture confirming life and life confirming scripture.



1jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


 

1jo 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The Spirit inside of us, The "washing of the water of the word", and the blood that cries out from the ground. (The world we are living in.)
These three agree in one.

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