Trust

[Death Defier]

People trust in their personal beliefs, friends, family, lovers, gossip, thoughts, emotions, feelings, mental and/or physical prowess, talents, knowledge, etc.
Seers trust in their ability to see energy beyond personal interpretations.
Who is on solid ground?

[docta lee]

True but maybe it is a syntax trap with words being the trap



I believe that it is for sure a personal interpretation but to use the energy body as a perceiver is how i would say it



Even that is still personal interpretation



Am I wrong?

[Death Defier]

docta lee wrote:Am I wrong?In order to see one has to stop the world. Without that there is no seeing in the nagual sense.

Aditional comment:
The sad reality of the human predicament is that everybody sees, but they put their interpretations between their seeing and themselves.
The fundamental difference between a witch/sorcerer and a seer is that the later shuts down both the normal world and the magical world of sorcerers, both perceptions being within the mold of man.
Someone that is just starting to see will first see a magical world. To give one example, Hindu devotees see Power and relate to it as a feminine deity (Kali).
While there is such a thing as the Divine Feminine, it's a distortion to see it as a culturally bound deity. The greatness of seeing lies in seeing things as they are.

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[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:
In me i trust for i am the only thing i have and ever will. In my inner self that never fails and i can fight the foreign instillation in my mind. In me who makes a choice whatever that is for a choice is many times difference between life and death. I am myself and no anyone else who am i to trust if not me and me alone?
DD stop confusing people with your intricate syntaxes. Not all are familiar with the sorceres world as you are. See you can communicate at least no? Try to be more on average human's mind i could hardly understand carlos's last books for the same reason.

Fair concern. It's simpler than it sounds. The double dreams the SELF IMAGE, the thing that people tends to trust on. Trusting your self-image is always a trip to disappointment, sooner or later. The "me" is very shallow and has no permanent setting, changing according to circumstances.
You don't trust in your self-image much but in your connection with Intent thru your Double, but your case is different than others here.
Seeing is the very first thing that one should learn because we can't seek Power blindly. Those pursuits never end well. It's like children wanting to play with guns.
The reason I mention this is because I didn't have this wise advice when my search started. I got it much later from a much wiser being than I.
If you want Power, learn to see power first.

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[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:
Well when i first met some posters in the forum one being you was hard for me to follow but i got used to it. Double is not self image or self reflection me me who always thinks and says things to one. Me as the thing whatever inside that reacts once my thoughts stop, it happens randomly it did even before i read Castaneda, yet much more frequent since. I don't want power DD i really don't this is not why i got into nagualism it is what i am inside. I see quite fine by now, just well it is tricky to much seeing and well clarity gets you the best it's to stop it by starting the internal dialogue and be " human" for a while this is what i learned to much seeing is not that good either. 
It's a tricky affair indeed. What I was saying is that by seeing you can have some real insight to rely on for our daily endevours, whatever they may be.
I know you don't want power, but others here are quite ambitious and lazy at the same time.
As for me, I want freedom in the broadest sense of the word.

[Gonzo]

Death Defier wrote:
As for me, I want freedom in the broadest sense of the word.

Freedom from what?

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[Death Defier]

Gonzo wrote:

Death Defier wrote:
As for me, I want freedom in the broadest sense of the word.


Freedom from what?

If you ignore/disregard that you are slave of outside forces, how can I explain you further? To anything I would say, I would add "freedom from deluded dull normals". At any rate you don't want answers but attention, another symptom of your sick state of being.
If you think I have to convince you about something, you are mistaken.
You should get that checked before it's too late.

[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:


Yes DD i understand you at lest i try to understand all here even thou some may be as you posted. Freedom from all that bounds one, freedom from humans strings may luck be on your side fellow warrior. 

Thanks

[Gonzo]

Death Defier wrote:Gonzo wrote:

Death Defier wrote:
As for me, I want freedom in the broadest sense of the word.


Freedom from what?

If you ignore/disregard that you are slave of outside forces, how can I explain you further? To anything I would say, I would add "freedom from deluded dull normals". At any rate you don't want answers but attention, another symptom of your sick state of being.
If you think I have to convince you about something, you are mistaken.
You should get that checked before it's too late.
    
Here's the thing, all of your ad hominem arguments aside:  many folk on the path to enlightenment say their goal is freedom.  They often like to cite the "Plato's Cave" analogy as a means of implying there are those who have exited the cave into the bright sunshine of reality, as opposed to being enthralled with the dim reflections on the wall of the cave.
I merely asked what you wanted freedom from, which implies, an acquisition of freedom TO.  My thought is all the notions of being trapped, of being fooled by Consensus Reality, of being a dupe, are delusions.  We are already free, to do whatever we want to do.  If you believe others, be they within this realm or without, actually care to hold you back, that is your problem to deal with.

[Death Defier]

Gonzo wrote:

My thought is all the notions of being trapped, of being fooled by Consensus Reality, of being a dupe, are delusions.  We are already free, to do whatever we want to do.

I rest my case. Trust your thoughts instead of your seeing. It's hard being responsible when you are not in control of your thoughts.
Good luck with that.

[Gonzo]

Death Defier wrote:Gonzo wrote:

My thought is all the notions of being trapped, of being fooled by Consensus Reality, of being a dupe, are delusions.  We are already free, to do whatever we want to do.

I rest my case. Trust your thoughts instead of your seeing. It's hard being responsible when you are not in control of your thoughts.
Good luck with that.

So, you still can't say exactly what you want to have freedom from?  Or if we may go further, what is it you see, that I do not?  And do you mean to imply you are in control of your thoughts?
Inquiring minds want to know...

[Death Defier]

Gonzo wrote:

Death Defier wrote:

Gonzo wrote:

My thought is all the notions of being trapped, of being fooled by Consensus Reality, of being a dupe, are delusions.  We are already free, to do whatever we want to do.

I rest my case. Trust your thoughts instead of your seeing. It's hard being responsible when you are not in control of your thoughts.
Good luck with that.


So, you still can't say exactly what you want to have freedom from?  Or if we may go further, what is it you see, that I do not?  And do you mean to imply you are in control of your thoughts?
Inquiring minds want to know...

See? This is how bad you want understanding. Since you have no way of knowing out of your lazy attitude, you become a cynic and enjoy spitting the rest of the world, like a betrayed woman. Since you are not happy, you don't want anybody else to be happy.
No wonder you see love as an indulgence. I can explain a lot of things, but the problem is you can't understand them. Your so-called mind is the problem, not my statements.
It doesn't matter really. You'll find yourself out of spit sooner or later.

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[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:
Dd love is part of all if love would not exist none of us would be here, the spirit or the eagle loves it's emanations in whatever form they are. Not loving them wold colapse everything and the universe would not be anything but an endless black hole. The warriors way brings joy and love in so many different ways to whomever follows it with the best in them. Indulgence ... well indulgence is to think such, no hope no love no friendship no joy well quite an arid one way to go, very bitter way sure nothing in it but sadness and indulging in giving up the main thing that makes humans humans and everything else what it is.
Without love there is no game in the realm of the Spirit. Only the truly loving "get it".
Hence the imposibility of Gonzo getting it (at least in this life time).

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[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:
Well DD, he will get it someday, hopefully but that requires an open mind and opened heart to receive such knowledge. Without love there is only bitterness and overconfidence deny what makes a human a human simply denies one's purpose. Like in that final " Star wars" series you know, all good and balanced jedi that love universally with no heart that ultimately face destruction of their kind. To deny love it is to deny hate also yet we have both in us that's why we are called humans the secret is to balance them all accept them all for all are. That is what Don Juan taught Carlos there is no ultimate good there is no ultimate evil but there is always love in form of friendship and others.
Well... I told him just a moment ago in the chat room "You have a chance to have a chance... perhaps."
He ain't interested, but who knows...

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[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:
Well DD try not to turn into a non warrior by commenting on fellow warriors here. He and others will do as their intent is and well their path, if the warrior's way may be good for me and others may not suit many so each one with their own path.
His tonal wants one thing, his nagual another. It's not gratuitous bashing. I would love it if he gets it.

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[Death Defier]

PerSyd wrote:


You are a little mean now, his tonal and nagual do not always have perfect consensus so what? It happens DD especially if they just begun really understanding the sorcerers world. Were you always this clear, did you always see and knew you see? Anyway it's not our business here, he will get it if it is meant to get it, niether you or me can do something about it, but forget and accept the will of the Spirit. There are many more in this forum , why don't you post some of the things you know and others don't may help someone. I am sure your seeing brought you lots of knowledge so share, i would like to hear about that then this lil gossip.

Well... perhaps the most important and more underrated piece of knowledge I know is that freedom is the dissolution of self-importance and becoming one with Power/Spirit/God.
It's a struggle that lasts many, many life times... but the only one I know worthwhile.

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[Gonzo]

It seems to me if a person has conquered self-importance, then as don Juan said somewhere, he no longer has any points to defend. I am always assured of a defense when I challenge DD.



As to comments concerning "Freedom" as a goal, in my opinion it has always sounded lofty and noble, but vaporous, since no one seems able to truly say, "Freedom from what?". The Freedom they are talking about, imo, is freedom from being stuck in human form, and that freedom will come soon enough.



Also in my opinion, the only reason we are here in human form is to experience it and to learn how to, as don Juan said, achieve the totality of ourselves. That process is accomplished solely in the Tonal. All of our lessons are in the tonal...all our problems are in the tonal...all our perceptions are in the tonal. I'm not denying the nagual, but again, as don Juan said, access to the nagual is only possible when those pesky elements of the tonal are properly dealt with. Again, another definition might well be that the elements of the tonal have been properly dealt with and one is free then to enjoy the nagual.