How we got here

[Bob May]

I don't have much time as I have to get ready for work soon.
But a few months ago while having a conversation on a bible website about Creationism vs Evolution what I believe is the key to the entire argument hit me. Not that the argument will ever cease, mind you. Both sides have "dug in" and whgen that happens all reasoned thinking tends to go out the window.
Having looked into the bible and Qabala the Creation story shows a pattern. We were "called forth, created, formed and made." I don't have time to look up the verse right now. Either Isaiah or Psalms, I think. But the point is that going back to Genesis these "layers" of mankind coming into being where and what we are today, is illustrated step by step.
But as I said on this other forum, I saw no physical manifestation in the story until it states that we were "given coats of skins" Genesis 4, I think.
So, what if these "coats of skins" were already in the process of evolving and walking around eating and crapping when they were given to mankind? In other words our spirits and souls were thrown into the bodies of lower primates which were already living here on earth.
DNA would give no clue to this event. DNA could be traced back all the way to the beginning of those primates but only shows where the physical body had come from. It would not show where Mankind had come from.
When this thought first occured to me I began looking for evidence in the bible of instances in which a spirit came into a physical body. Biblical precedence in other words.
It is ALL ABOUT THAT SUBJECT!!! From the "sons of gods" which "beheld the daughters of men and took unto them wives.." to the places where demons were cast out of men by Jesus and his disciples. And even to the promises of Jesus that he and the Father and the Spirit would come and make their "abode in us." They (Spirit) would live inside our bodies.
And also, there was a precedent of a "group of spirits" (like Adam, which can also be read in Hebrew to mean Mankind as a race, not just one man.) There is the instance in which Jesus asked the demon's name before casting it out. The demon responded that it's name was Legion
because they were many. Jesus cast the group of demons into a herd of pigs and they immediately ran down a steep slope and into the sea.
In my mind this is an exact reinactment of the fall of mankind. A group of spirit beings ensouling a group of animal bodies enmasse.
Sometimes the deepest mysteries are hidden in plain sight.
For many years I looked for the making of man in the sense of fashioning us as it is said He formed or Created man.
No, He made the bodies first by evolution. Then in one instant threw us into those bodies when we were caste out of "The Garden"  which was a spiritual environment.
I have never heard or read about it put quite this way before. But all of the evidence seems to point this way.
I would love to hear some feedback.

[ninth octave]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. By the middle of the second verse of Genesis, the earth was made without form and was void. hmmm... This takes on another meaning later on in the book of Jeremiah 4:3-6 and explains. This is the first earth age, we are currently in the 2nd earth age. Before the foundations of the world, that Paul speaks of in Ephesians1 and in Romans 8. Peter speaks of this first earth age in 2Peter3: 3-7  This was a mystery that was taught to the apostles and possibly seen by Peter and Paul along with John according to the gnostic scriptures. I really understood the OT and NT better once I was able to understand where all those biblical verses were pointing to.


When I was in Catholic elementary school science class depicted the first cave man and woman in coats of animal skin much like the ones Adam and Eve were given by God in the garden for protection after their fall. According to the Kabbalah, it is believed that Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies as they could walk and talk with God in Paradise. The Kabbalah suggests that Adam and Eve were like God's spiritual experiment.  They were given skin to cover their flesh after they disobeyed God. This is how they understood themselves to be "naked." I understand the story of Adam and Eve to be the when spiritual DNA was breathed into Adam by God. This meaning his conscious was connected to his spirit and also his soul caused his free will  drove a wedge between the flesh and spirit.


By the time Genesis 6 occurs, the sons of God come down from their place of habitation and impregnate the daughters of Adam.
Thats when the story starts getting far fetched with the hybrids and Giants that were born from this union.  Maybe there is room in here for neanderthal meets godzilla. But the spiritual warfare  from the "fallen angels"and the wickedness of man  became evil and the earth needed to be destroyed by God. And this was the Great Flood. 


From this 2nd Earth age till now mankind has been in need of redemption. To be born from above really means to be born from the spirit and from the bag of waters from and not from the sons of god who impregnated woman back when. The Book of Enoch was well known by the Jew in the days of Jesus on the earth.  When Jesus speaks of your father was the devil in John 8, he is speaking of things that happened in the days of Noah. The early church fathers had hid that book with all its far-fetched scriptures. You can now read it online for free, thank God.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. By the middle of the second verse of Genesis, the earth was made without form and was void. hmmm... Being in flesh and blood bodies we are living in the forth (lowest) world in Kabbalistic terms. The world of matter.
Peeking outside this world is what Don Juan's stopping the world is all about. How do we do that?
Don Juan said that stopping the internal dialog is the most important thing he ever taught Carlos. When you do this world of matter begins to "talk to you" in the respect that  "..the world agreeing with us".. or .."reaffirmations from the world around us" as Don Juan described it.
Jesus said ""..if these should hold their peace", I tell you even the very rocks would cry out." I believe he was saying the same thing.
But back to my point. As you said God created heaven and earth yet there was still no form. He also made light even though there was no sun, moon, or stars yet. He also at one point says there was "not yet a man to till the ground." This was after He had already Created Adam (mankind)

The above illustration shows the four worlds that reflect both man and the universe.
You can follow these four worlds in Genesis in the same order that man came into existence.
In my opinion the first, highest world is not covered.
The bible starts at the beginning Creation. Prior to that there is no time or space, so it IS the beginning. God Created!!!  Formless and void.
Man was also first Created.
Then we start to get Forms, still not matter...
Man is Formed of the "dust of the ground."
Eve is formed from Adam he falls into a deep sleep. (It never says he wakes up does it?)
This is the separation of our soul and spirit.
Forth, and this is my point, We are given coats of skins and sent out of the garden.
This is when we entered the world of MATTER and this is our physical bodies. (Malkuth in the chart above.)
These bodies were already here. Whether cromagnum sp? or Lucy or whatever it does not matter.
Looking at Genesis in terms of Time can only get you so far. It is also helpful to me to see it in terms of layers density. Or maybe levels of manifestation would be better.
It is a very deep study and I didn't want to get tooo far into it but just the point that these bodies were prepared for us and waiting for us here where we would be needing them. In the world of matter.
The sons of God and the daughters of men and their offspring called the "Men of Renoun" and "Giants", may or may not be something entirely different. (I have read the book of Enoch)
But the "Creation Story" as it concerns Man does not touch on Matter as we know it until the expulsion from the Garden.
You could actually look at us as "foriegn installations" of primate bodies. That would have been what we call "The Fall."
I could be wrong on this but, like I said there seems to be a lot of evidence to support it. A whole race (Mankind) leaving their home and jumping into new homes.
Kind of like the "Sons of God". They needed bodies also to take wives of the daughters of men. Or are we the sons of god???

[ninth octave]

Are we or could we be the sons of God?  


This is the biggest mystery to man is he still is not certain were he sprang from at least anthropologically wise. I am interested when man got a soul and wanted to know good from evil..


I read some basic Kaballah but am more inclined to view the Gnostic version of the creation story. Origin of the World tells of what was happening before In the beginning God..and this most likely tells of the FI's that CC had encountered. 
It tells of the FIRST EARTH AGE - BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THIS WORLD were formed. This is the mystery found in the Kabbalah and what Jesus has taught to his disciples. The gnostic scriptures have certain disciples see or  had visions of this time before time.  
The first earth age all in it were in spiritual bodies. In Job 38 ...4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare , if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the the measures there of, if thou knowest? or or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Mankind was sleeping through this just as Adam went into deep sleep in the garden just as Peter, James and John fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane as Jesus prayed for the unity of humanity. 
I have learned that the Bible is not to be read in chronological order that God's time is not our time. I believe everything in bible is prophetic individually and collectively. I read the Word as in sinks deep into layers of  in my subconscious mind and slowly comes to the surface and is seen as a reality.
So are we sons of God? yes, at one point. I believe messengers or angels were sent out after the Fall. But I believe the message has always been to be" born from above" and not from the time when this world was under the influence of the FI's.  John 3:16 says it all.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:
Are we or could we be the sons of God?  





This is the biggest mystery to man is he still is not certain were he sprang from at least anthropologically wise. I am interested when man got a soul and wanted to know good from evil..
Do good get good do bad get bad. Cause and effect. It's the world we were cast into




I read some basic Kaballah but am more inclined to view the Gnostic version of the creation story. Origin of the World tells of what was happening before In the beginning God..and this most likely tells of the FI's that CC had encountered. 

It tells of the FIRST EARTH AGE - BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THIS WORLD were formed. This is the mystery found in the Kabbalah and what Jesus has taught to his disciples. The gnostic scriptures have certain disciples see or  had visions of this time before time.  
The Gospel of Truth by a guy named Valentinus is a very impressive book in the Nag Hammadi Scrolls. Speaks in these terms. Many years ago I had a vision that was described in this book and I've not seen a hint of it anywhere else. But, again, if the gnostics or I or anyone else had visions concerning these things, then they exist now. That is why I said sometimes it helps to look at the Creation story as levels of reality rather than a point in time. Both can be true.



The first earth age all in it were in spiritual bodies. In Job 38 ...4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare , if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the the measures there of, if thou knowest? or or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Mankind was sleeping through this just as Adam went into deep sleep in the garden just as Peter, James and John fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane as Jesus prayed for the unity of humanity. 

I have learned that the Bible is not to be read in chronological order that God's time is not our time. I believe everything in bible is prophetic individually and collectively. I read the Word as in sinks deep into layers of  in my subconscious mind and slowly comes to the surface and is seen as a reality.
If God put a sleep on Adam (Mankind) when He separated Eve (the Soul) from the spirit. It seems like the rest of the Scriptures are saying Wake Up! Which it never says happened to Adam in Genesis. It definitely speaks to us at a deeper level and the answers come later after an incubation period.
These are definitely individual experiences and us "waking up" to various stages or levels of reality. I believe even the book of Revelation is an individual experience.
Out of all the various schools of thought on that book, the one that makes the most sense and that lines up with what I believe, it is the vision of Margaret Macdonald. I think I have the name correct. She was a sixteen year old girl during 1800's in Scotland and had a vision. It is short, a few pages, but well worth reading and thinking about and meditating on.
 here is a link
http://www.apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html


So are we sons of God? yes, at one point. I believe messengers or angels were sent out after the Fall. But I believe the message has always been to be" born from above" and not from the time when this world was under the influence of the FI's.  John 3:16 says it all.




I agree, but I was specifally asking were we the "Sons of God" from Genesis 6. We are sons. There is also an order of angels by that same name in the Qabala etc. I meant that maybe the story of of the "Sons of God" beholding the daughters of men...etc. Could be a telling of our fall from a different perspective. Why we came into bodies in the first place. Just a thought I think on once in a while.

[ninth octave]

Sons of God

I have read it put this way by the book Chariots of God and also from Stichen's work on translating the Ananaki Sumerian tablets were there is furthering of the origin of mankind. From this take, I tend to believe  more in the demonstration of how the "Sons of God "had their purpose on earth.  If we were rescued by the "Sons of God" in order for our survival then so be it.  This reasoning pulls together the Genesis 6 chapter and also can explain the experiment that was planted in the daughters of Adam suggesting the time when neanderthal man was faltering in Europe and began to migrate to near Mesopotamia. At this point homo-sapiens came upwards from out of Africa to meet- most likely they did interbred with each other. Science is still in the process of working out the genome of neanderthal with recovering some of their DNA. The interesting thing is they say the gene for red hair evolves from the neanderthal. Only a small percent of people have this hair colour.  Also to note here "Adam" in Hebrew means ruddy complected. 


So if a soul was breathed into man at this point, the kind was placed into man meaning he started caring to be his brothers keeper, buried the dead, or showed language skills and a passion to communicate for their survival. Then so be it how ever mankind could lay down their cow bell... Our story still suggest a rescuing  or the need of Savior and man's  interdependence with one another in order for our survival.
This would make is all survivors of cause and effect and or survivors of Corpus Christi.

[Bob May]

I don't quite catch all of your resoning here, but it sounds like you are taking the stance that the sons of god were "extra terestrials".
I don't subscribe to that.
Some, like Van Danikan (sp) think that all unexplained phenomena are the result of beings from other planets. I don't know if they exist or not but I do know that angels and demons do.
I don't think there was any experiement except a "sexual" experiment as far as the sons of gods were concerned. They were angels of some sort that wanted to feel bodies so they "jumped in."
I do believe that mankind got "caught up" in this world of cause and effect and a "cause and effect way of thinking. Do good, get good,.. do bad get bad,"etc. That is the knowledge of the tree of good and evil and it is what we were told not to eat. In fact the fruit of it was what we were told not to eat and that "fruit" (or end result) is death.
We did "surely die" as God said we would.
Cain said something like "my sin is too great to be forgiven." That way of thinking is what keeps us caught in this mess, in my way of thinking.
And he was banished also.
Another meaning of Adam is Red Earth, which recalls Cain's sin against the spiritual side of him Abel. God said "Your brother's blood (spirit) cries out from the ground (matter)." Red earth, spirit caught up in matter. The entire bible is about that idea in one shape or another.
It is interesting that in recent years the advocates of extraterestrials being spoken about in the bible have begun to say they are "extra-dimensional travelers."
They have almost come full circle. They are now coming closer to what the bible is talking about. Why not just come to the conclusion that the bible was correct in portraying them as spiritual beings?
Why do they make use of historical,"eye witness accounts" of Spiritual events and beings in the bible as historical evidence for Physical events and beings?
If they accept one part of the story why not accept the other?
I think the answer is that physical events and beings, however foriegn to us, are less frightening than the spiritual side of things.
I would have to agree. For every true spiritual experience I've had, there have been weeks and sometimes months of dealing with demons.
"it's so easy to open the doors, but so hard to close them."
By the way, I read somewhere that either blue eyes or blond hair (I can't remember which) was a mutation. The blue eyes probably evolved as a defense mechanism to prevent snow blindness in Northern climates. Wolves and Huskies often have very light blue or grey eyes.
I've got two sisters and a brother with red hair. It supposedly came to Ireland with the Danes. Ireland was raided by Vikings a lot and it is where my name, May, came from.

[ninth octave]

What is the mark was that God placed on Cain after he murdered his brother?

Jesus  says  this in John 8:44 , before he was going to get stoned by the Jews..Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar, and the father of it.


"Red earth, spirit caught up in matter. The entire bible is about that idea in one shape or another."


A blood sacrifice of Abel's that was good and acceptable to God. Cain's offering was fruit tilled from the ground. 


The New Covenant reconciles the fruit of the vine; work of human hands to become the remembrance of the blood that Jesus sacrificed on the cross. I like to believe this considers a reconciliation with whatever the mark of Cain is.


The Book of Ezekiel is now explained by God's throne coming upon the earth. What words could Ezekiel use to describe something of uncommunicable language. This is explained quite well today as  Ezekiel having a close encounter of third kind. Of course Israel could not believe this prophet especially. But today because of mankind's exploration into outer-space and the vehicles he has designed it becomes a possibility that Ezekiel was doing his best to describe time traveling or extra-dimenstional travelers. Ezekiel understanding fits fine with the book of revelation.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:

What is the mark was that God placed on Cain after he murdered his brother?

Cain is the carnal side of mankind. The side that represents the Old Covenant which is based on the law mentality.
There was to be a future redemption symbolised by the TAV or "mark" placed on his forehead. Tav is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet and carries such meanings as signature, seal, covenant, guarantee, etc. It is a promise, basically. Specifically here to prevent Cain's death.
Originally the Tav was the shape of a Christian cross in ancient Hebrew, (another sign for salvation from death)later it took on todays shape which is basically two upright lines and a horizontal over top. In the passover story the Israelites were told to paint their "doorposts and lintels" (the shape of the Tav cross) with blood and the angel of death would "pass over" them and no one in their houses would be killed. All of the firstborn in Egypt were. Another example of the Tav cross and saving from death.



Jesus  says  this in John 8:44 , before he was going to get stoned by the Jews..Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The living by the "letter of the law" and strict Law-based belief systems always breeds intolerance and violence. Look at the Muslim extremists today or the Spanish Inquisition.




"Red earth, spirit caught up in matter. The entire bible is about that idea in one shape or another."




A blood sacrifice of Abel's that was good and acceptable to God. Cain's offering was fruit tilled from the ground. 
Abel's sacrifice was a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus the "lamb of God." That was acceptable in God's eyes. Pure Grace. Cain's was the work of his hands. Pure Law. Cause and effect, do good get good ...do evil get evil, .. a result of eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It wasn't acceptable. 
There are two Covenants in the bible. The first depended on us doing works. The second depended on one work which Jesus did on the cross. He Died!!! That fulfilled the Old Covenant Law. "It is finished." The work of our hands has nothing to do with salvation. Only belief in that one act of blood sacrifice.





The New Covenant reconciles the fruit of the vine; work of human hands to become the remembrance of the blood that Jesus sacrificed on the cross. I like to believe this considers a reconciliation with whatever the mark of Cain is.
I think the whole Cain and Able story is about the coming (from that point of time) sacrifice at the cross.




The Book of Ezekiel is now explained by God's throne coming upon the earth. What words could Ezekiel use to describe something of uncommunicable language. This is explained quite well today as  Ezekiel having a close encounter of third kind. Of course Israel could not believe this prophet especially. But today because of mankind's exploration into outer-space and the vehicles he has designed it becomes a possibility that Ezekiel was doing his best to describe time traveling or extra-dimenstional travelers. Ezekiel understanding fits fine with the book of revelation. 
I've heard these ideas, but the same can be said of spiritual things. People use the things other people can understand to relate an unexplainable event. But there are orders of angels that fit the descriptions given by Ezekiel. Thrones, Seraphim (Fiery Serpents), Wheels (Auphinim = wheels), etc.
And like I said the extra-dimentional traveler is fairly new terminology in the UFO field but is exactly what angels have alway been purported to do. They can manifest or unmanifest at will. They can manifest in human form or other forms instantly. Jesus manifested in physical form inside a locked room and ATE with the disciples. Even Don Juan and Genaro could not do that with their dreaming doubles.


Philip baptised the head eunic (sp?) of the queen of Ethiopia and was instantly transported to another place, bodily.
Spiritual experiences are difficult to describe. Jacob saw a ladder with angels ascending and descending upon it.
Joseph wore the coat of many colors.
It was the same experience except that Jacob only saw it, but Joseph wore it. That is because it was promised to his seed after him. The land that Jacob was promised was NOT a geographical place. It is an awareness that we bring with us no matter where we go in this world or the next. "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not."
That is the awareness and the land promised to his seed after him.
Don Juan describes the "Great Bands of Emanations."
I've had the experience and I would say that it is all describing the same experience.
I also believe it describes the experience of the disciples in the upper room at Pentecost.
It is a real spiritual experience that was later promised to Nathanael when Jesus first met him. "Hereafter you shall see angels ascending and descending upon the son of man."
The form these angel take are as "Flames of Fire" which is what the Psalms says angels are. Just as at Pentecost.


Here is a link to a song I just finished writing today about this very subject. It's called Nathanael's Song.
http://www.reverbnation.com/robertmay?p ... ate%3Dtrue


It's very rough, but you'll get the idea.
Anyway, my point is, the things promised to Jacob's seed after him were promised to all believers. The things that the Patriarchs experienced we can too. That is what the early Christians believed. Then their enemies began calling them "Gnostics." Meaning those who wanted spiritual experiences instead of being handed whatever line the "powers that be" wanted them to believe.
If I lived back in the old days I would have a contract out on me.
My teacher called himself a Christian Mystic so I guess that's a good word for what I am,..what I believe. If I was around in about 150 AD, I would have been called Gnostic too.
To start looking for aliens in the bible is to throw away our inheritance. Because spiritual experiences ARE our inheritance. Visions, Prophecy, Visitations, Dreams, and many more things are our inheritance. The thing is until you have an experience you may not even recognise it in the bible. After you have a certain experience you do recognise it.
Do aliens exist? I don't know and don't much care. But that would be a whole different book.
It is not what the bible is about.
Bob

[ninth octave]

Wow, you just made a stitch in nine with the teaching on the Hebrew symbol Tav. This gives great clarity in the tav where my questions were indirectly hovering around the truth of the mark of Cain. I just asked a pastor this question and he said he really didn't know. This is the Holy Spirit leading one into the truth if one keeps knocking. I have been looking for the wedding of the Gentile bride and the Jewish groom  to take place by seeking deeper into the It has been confirmed in my innermost spirit that the first miracle at Canaan involved the marriage of transformational relationship that will occur by the understanding of the scriptures of the OT intercoursing with the Torah along with the New Testament.It is in this kind of sharing of our faith that gathers insight into our roots. 
I am also fond the Gnostic scriptures and feel a kindred spirit while reading them. My innermost spirit soars to higher heights as I read them . I know I was more than likely a monk that hung out in the desert trying to copy the text for burial before they could be burned.I more than likely had your back Brother Bob May along with Brother Lex.
Spiritual experiences are our inheritance.
Yes this is true.The prophet Joel asserts this about sons and daughters and old men shall see prophesy in visions and in dreams and is presented again in the coming of the Holy Spirit.  Greater things have yet to come and greater things are still to be done in the city. I too have made the correlation of dreams and interpretation of dreams with Joseph and Daniel. I have had similar visions that are written of in the OT but could  readily realized these visions  only  after I read it through in the Bible. I don't believe in starting a new doctrine or theory after it such as the 16 year old lassie in the 1800's who surged a new word called the Rapture. Sometimes people need to experience spirituality via  a dream , vision or even hallucination in order to believe or understand and awaken their spirituality.

[Bob May]

ninth octave wrote:

Wow, you just made a stitch in nine with the teaching on the Hebrew symbol Tav. This gives great clarity in the tav where my questions were indirectly hovering around the truth of the mark of Cain. I just asked a pastor this question and he said he really didn't know. .... by the understanding of the scriptures of the OT intercoursing with the Torah along with the New Testament.It is in this kind of sharing of our faith that gathers insight into our roots. 
I'm glad you connected some dots with the mark. I think whole books could probably be written on it.
The New Testament is "inside of the Old" Jesus said the Law and Prophets prophecied of him. He also said that Moses wrote of him. It is amazing what you find hidden in the Law when you read it as a code to times in the future (Presesnt days).
We have to cultivate the habit of looking for the spiritual side of things.
I was just speaking to my wife and remembered something about the Jacob's ladder story.
He sees a ladder set up that reaches to heaven. Angels are ascending and descending upon it. Jesus, when he meets Nathanael, tells him you shall see angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. So he is pointing back to the Jacob's ladder story. If you go back to that story, the phrase "behold, a ladder set up.." in Hebrew adds up to 888. That is the sum of the name Jesus in the Greek language. So while Jesus is ointing back to that story, the story is pointing forward to him.

I am also fond the Gnostic scriptures and feel a kindred spirit while reading them. My innermost spirit soars to higher heights as I read them . I know I was more than likely a monk that hung out in the desert trying to copy the text for burial before they could be burned.I more than likely had your back Brother Bob May along with Brother Lex.
Brother Lex?, ...the name sounds familiar. Is he in this forum?
Spiritual experiences are our inheritance.
Yes this is true.The prophet Joel asserts this about sons and daughters and old men shall see prophesy in visions and in dreams and is presented again in the coming of the Holy Spirit.  Greater things have yet to come and greater things are still to be done in the city. 
Yeah, Peter stands up and says "THIS is THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel.." Why churches teach that that was then and doesn't count for anything today is beyond me, Pentecost was the beginning of something, not the end of it.

I too have made the correlation of dreams and interpretation of dreams with Joseph and Daniel. I have had similar visions that are written of in the OT but could  readily realized these visions  only  after I read it through in the Bible.
I like to call it 20/20 hindsight. You can't really understand the bible until you begin to experience it. My teacher used to call it the "Mystic's Handbook."
I don't believe in starting a new doctrine or theory after it such as the 16 year old lassie in the 1800's who surged a new word called the Rapture. Sometimes people need to experience spirituality via  a dream , vision or even hallucination in order to believe or understand and awaken their spirituality.
I don't think Margaret MacDonald coined the wrong use of that word or as starting any doctrine. (she later became a cloistered nun) It means literally "taken up." It has nothing to do with bodies dissapearing. Paul was "taken up" to the third heaven. I've been "taken up" to places also. The value of her vision, which may not have been a vision at all but a higher awareness, was that she was seeing the world from a higher perspective. An expanded awareness of what is going on around us.
Unlike all of the other end times interpreters who are waiting for some future physical events, she saw that what they were waiting for was (and is) happening right in front of her eyes but that she had not seen it before.
This is what Thomas was told in the Gospel of Thomas.  The Kingdom of heaven is all around but men do not see it.  
If we are on the path, we will get spiritual glimses every now and again, though. If we hold to those experiences as precious to us we will recieve more. "To him that has shall more be given." That is "laying up treasure in heaven."
Those that don't pay attention to the spiritual side of life are the ones burying the talents and what they have will be taken away. 
I'm glad you accepted my post in the spirit that it was given.
Good talking to you.
Bob

[ninth octave]

Bob May
Nathaniel's Song does truly touched my heart . So simply sweet it gets me to believing all over again. 
ThankYou
Ninth Octave

[Bob May]

That's about the nicest compliment you could give me. I appreciate it. I'm glad the song had that effect on you.
That is the goal of songwriting, I think. To touch people in various ways, depending on the type of song. The listener should feel what the writer felt when writing it.
Like I said it is very rough and I will be re-recording it within the next few days. (Hopefully today.) I already have the guitar track re-done.
I'll let you know and post the link again.
Bob

[Bob May]

OK, I redid my song with some slight changes but better recording. I will put it up on the Tone forum.
Bob

[ninth octave]

I just completely read through Margaret MacDonald's premonition of the book of revelation. I can understand where certain Christian denominations have exploited her premonition. The negative being in how most churches are believing that The Church, is going to be out of here not to be on earth as the worst is happening in the world .
   I didn't understand it that way when reading MacDonald's vision. My inner spirit has always said it makes better sense to stay here especially when the going gets tough and stand with the Word of God. Knowledge of God's Word is what will make one plough through the tribulation and the enemy's deception. Christians  bear witness during tribulation - to others who are not believers. They are not to premeditate what they will say for it will be the Holy Spirit that will speak through them when placed in "the synagogue of satan".
Caught up or raptured up is when Christians have the breath of God surrounding them : meaning Christians are in spiritual bodies while still on earth. No jet packs for Christians hmmm
Mac Donald's visions was drastically misintepreted by Christian circles. This makes me wonder if the real deception lies within Christian's own deception of their fellow Christian's intepretation. hmmm

[Bob May]

No jet packs for Christians hmmm
Mac Donald's visions was drastically misintepreted by Christian circles. This makes me wonder if the real deception lies within Christian's own deception of their fellow Christian's intepretation. hmmm
You're starting to smell the coffee. Didn't Jesus say:


Mt 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.




Mt 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
It's is not that people are trying to decieve us purposefully. It is a case of "the blind leading the blind." They are teaching what they have been taught. Or as my teacher used to say, "they are teaching what they never knew."
Very few are having spiritual experiences or or having their spiritual sight opened concerning the things Jesus was talking about. He obviously saw the world differently than we do. The important thing about these last times is that we are now able to see things more in line with how
Jesus saw things if we let ourselves. He said "I am the way", didn't he? The things of God are available to us now. But along with that, we necessarily also will become aware of the things that have been keeping us from seeing and experiencing the things of God. It just works that way. That is why the book of Revelation seems so negative. But the real name of that book is "The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ."
I think, if you asked John whether or not that Revelation (the opening of his eyes) was worth all of the **** that he also had to see, he would have said Definitely!!!
Like I said hers (Margaret MacDonald's) is the only interpretation that I've seen that makes any sense. She saw the end times happening all around her. It was not a vision per se. Her spiritual eyes were just opening up. She was waking up.
And yet, in the Late, Great Planet Earth, (a best seller written by Hal Lindsey back in the 70's) among all of the other schools of thought on the end times, hers was just presented as an "aside." An afterthought and a heresy. There is nothing wrong with heresy if the heresy is truth and the churches are wrong.
I am not saying she is some great spiritual guide that we should follow or anything like that. I am just saying she saw something that the majority of men and even bible scholars missed.
Even the apostles said we are in the end times.
We still are.
Like Yoda said, "I will hold my own council" Our only chance in this deception is to believe the scripture.
We are in a different circumstance, a different world, since the Cross and we keep getting told that we are not. That is because the teachers and preachers don't realise what happened at the Cross, Resurrection and Pentecost.
Some of us are beginning to wake up from the sleep that God put on Adam (mankind) in the Garden when He took Eve out of the hole in his side (another reference to the Cross) or separated the soul from the spirit in Man. It never said that God ever woke Adam from that sleep.
That is what the New Covenant and New Testament is about and the end times are when it happens.
Since Pentecost it Has Been the end times. And some have been waking up during these last two thousand years.

[Guest]