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After having won many archery contests, the town champion went to the Zen master.
- I am the best of all – he said. – I didn’t study religion, never
sought help from the monks, and succeeded in becoming the finest archer
in the whole region. I heard that, for a time, you were the best archer
in the region, and ask you: was it necessary to become a monk in order
to learn to shoot?
- No – replied the Zen master.
But the champion was not satisfied: he took an arrow, placed it in
the bow, fired it and hit a cherry which was very far away. Smiling, as
if to say: “you might have saved your time, devoting yourself only to
technique.” And he said:
- I doubt whether you could do that.
Without looking in the least bit worried, the master went inside, fetched his bow, and began to walk towards a nearby mountain.
On the way, there was an abyss which could only be crossed by an old
bridge made of rotting rope, and which was almost collapsing.
The Zen master went to the middle of the bridge, took his bow and placed
an arrow in it, then aimed at a tree on the far side of the precipice,
and hit his target.
- Now it is your turn – he kindly told the young man, as he returned to firm ground.
Terrified as he gazed down at the abyss below his feet, the young man
went to the spot and fired, but his arrow veered wide of the mark.
- That is why the discipline of meditation was worthwhile – concluded the master, when the young man returned to him.
“You may have great skill with the instrument you choose for your
livelihood, but it us useless, if you cannot command the mind which uses
that instrument.”
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I can shoot all day in to the zero but what does this matter when I face death MS?
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If there is no more selfimportance, is there an 'I' to face death?
One of the ways the path of zen is formulated is
'To resolve the great matter of birth and death'
When you do so - you no long fear death, because you know there is no-death and no-birth.
This of course comes from a personal experience you must have yourself.
you have to died completely on the meditation cushion to go there, or shoot all day to zero till you die completely in it. This means that there is no body, no mind, no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch etc
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This means that there is no body, no mind, no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch etcBut of course you also mean there is a body, a mind, a color, a sound, a smell a taste and touch too right? To have simply nothing is nothing at all. So if there is all this still, within the awareness of being aware, there is an identity which is simply..individual awareness (minus self-importance).
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no NL
I mean no mind and no body. no individual, no identity too
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Nu Lang wrote: To have simply nothing is nothing at all.
who is left 'to have simply nothing'?
***
Now again I come to the limited of what words can express
yet in the Diamont sutra there is some clear and sharp descriptions of what you seems to be looking for.
So who is left to have simply nothing?
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I mean no mind and no body. no individual, no identity tooAre you talking about oblivion, no awareness? If you are not, if you are talking about still having awareness, then that's individuality.
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Mornings Son wrote:Nu Lang wrote: To have simply nothing is nothing at all.
who is left 'to have simply nothing'?
I'm saying that's not ever going to happen...that a 'who' will have nothing...starting to sound like Dr Seuss. Always for a who there will be something, otherwise, what the point? And not only that, but how would such who even know its exisitence if its nothing, absolutely nothing, has nothing, thinks nothing, sees nothing, feels nothing?
I think when Buddhist circles talk about this and insist upon this extreme state of being, they brush over the idea of what complete nothing would actaully be. Death. Death without the reflection of life to shine upon it is the unknowable. Some identity is needed to be aware, even if that identity is not very self-reflective. Ideally that's what we want anyway, a very minute amount of self-reflection so as to enjoy whats 'out there'.
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Nu Lang wrote:I mean no mind and no body. no individual, no identity tooAre you talking about oblivion, no awareness? If you are not, if you are talking about still having awareness, then that's individuality.If you say so..
what is the source of awareness?
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Nu Lang wrote:Mornings Son wrote:Nu Lang wrote: To have simply nothing is nothing at all.
who is left 'to have simply nothing'?
I'm saying that's not ever going to happen...that a 'who' will have nothing...starting to sound like Dr Seuss. Always for a who there will be something, otherwise, what the point? And not only that, but how would such who even know its exisitence if its nothing, absolutely nothing, has nothing, thinks nothing, sees nothing, feels nothing?
I think when Buddhist circles talk about this and insist upon this extreme state of being, they brush over the idea of what complete nothing would actaully be. Death. Death without the reflection of life to shine upon it is the unknowable. Some identity is needed to be aware, even if that identity is not very self-reflective. Ideally that's what we want anyway, a very minute amount of self-reflection so as to enjoy whats 'out there'.
How to name and describe what is outside concepts and seen by no-one?
Alas I lack skills to push this further.
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Mornings Son wrote:Nu Lang wrote:I mean no mind and no body. no individual, no identity tooAre you talking about oblivion, no awareness? If you are not, if you are talking about still having awareness, then that's individuality.If you say so..
what is the source of awareness?
The source must be aware of itself.
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Mornings Son wrote:How to name and describe what is outside concepts and seen by no-one?
Alas I lack skills to push this further.
Ok, well maybe you can answer this one then...
Whats the point of describing it at all? I ask legibility,its not sarcasm.
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Nu Lang wrote:Mornings Son wrote:Nu Lang wrote:Are you talking about oblivion, no awareness? If you are not, if you are talking about still having awareness, then that's individuality.If you say so..
what is the source of awareness?
The source must be aware of itself.
Yeah - I agree.
Mirrors reflecting in Mirrors
...
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Nu Lang wrote:Mornings Son wrote:How to name and describe what is outside concepts and seen by no-one?
Alas I lack skills to push this further.
Ok, well maybe you can answer this one then...
Whats the point of describing it at all? I ask legibility,its not sarcasm.
The point in sharing the Dharma is to offer guidance for people to actualize self-realization (Seeing One own True Original Nature) - yet all the words are like a ticket to the movies. When you have shown your ticket and entered the cinema - you don't need the ticket any more.
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Mornings Son wrote:The point in sharing the Dharma is to offer guidance for people to actualize self-realization
Ok, but perhaps you agree that inner silence is the direct route. Words really aren't needed at all. In fact its the loss of words thats needed.
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Nu Lang
Inner silence is important, but it needs to be sharp. So easy One get attached to phenomena.
Words are important too - as this makes the scaffold One needs for cutting the Buddha free.
But again One may all to easy get attached to the scaffold.
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I can shoot all day in to the zero but what does this matter when I face death MS?-LW
If there is no more selfimportance, is there an 'I' to face death?-MSOk, what I meant here (though I realize it wasn't clear) is inner silence is the direct route to loss of self importance. That one does not lose self importance until the reflective inner dialog is stopped.
Still there is an identity who faces death though.
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Hmmm I don't think it was really about inner silence that the story was teaching but rather focus.
The master only focused on hitting the target. The young man focused on the abyss which made him miss.
He was focusing on what he didn't want. Thats where his intentional energy was going. Where as the master only focused on what he wanted to achieve.
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Mornings Son wrote:Nu Lang wrote:The source must be aware of itself.
Yeah - I agree.
Mirrors reflecting in Mirrors
...
Ok, I like what you said here MS. But I say the reflection is not all that's happening, there is direction (intent) guiding what would otherwise be chaos (endless reflection). This intent could be described as 'identity' don't you agree? This intent makes order in the 'worlds' reflected so that we have Toltec path, Buddhist path, Sorcery path, ...there is no end to it's paths....it can be as mundane as the stuff in the social world order... it assembles paths. Its the identity, the awareness that perceives, but also the awareness beyond what is perceived...the underlying order that makes perception possible.
If there was not this direction, we would not be having this discussion,
as 'no one' would have made a computer, discovered electricity, built
homes and school to develop language used to communicate etc...all this
is done by a guiding force, rather then only reflections.
The moon reflects in the lake, but that reflection alone is inert, its us (beings of intent) who perceive that reflection and write poetry about it, studies its physical laws, use it in magic (unlock its intent...water.. light), etc that give it meaning it otherwise does not have.
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To align with Heaven and Earth, To align with Spirit, To live out spontaneously from the Buddha nature.
Yes there is some kind on Natural unfolding on Mind - an Intent in the mist of delusions.
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This Intent tells me that our journey therefore will always have some assembled "meaning" rather then diffuse.
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