O

[Mornings Son]

The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction
between  the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are
attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood. By their very
seeking they lose it, for that is using the Buddha to seek for the
Buddha and using mind to grasp Mind. Even though they do their utmost
for a full aeon, they will not be able to attain it. They do not know
that, if they put a stop to conceptual thought and forget their anxiety,
the Buddha will appear before them, for this Mind is the Buddha and the
Buddha is all living beings.
from
the Chün Chou record of the zen master Huang Po

[Naturyl]

Yep. Zen is not about thinking. You can't think or conceptualize your way to Zen. On the contrary, Zen is what happens when the mind stops clinging to everything else, because it discovers there IS nothing else.
This realization can't be put into words, it can only be pointed to. Huang Po has some good pointers.

[Gonzo]

I beg to differ. Zen is all about thinking. "We are what we think. Everything we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world."

[Naturyl]

Buddha supposedly said that, but it doesn't reflect the Zen tradition. Zen is very much about getting beyond thought to a direct experience of reality. But different things work for different people, and whatever works for you is your best path. It's not very Zen-like to argue over these things.

[Gonzo]

Naturyl wrote:Buddha supposedly said that, but it doesn't reflect the Zen tradition. Zen is very much about getting beyond thought to a direct experience of reality. But different things work for different people, and whatever works for you is your best path. It's not very Zen-like to argue over these things.
Heh...well, there is a Zen story regarding argument, described as two monks locking lips with one another and covering each other with slobber.  And then of course, "The more talking and  thinking the farther from the truth."
In my opinion, thinking IS experience, however, I give "thinking" a rather broad definition.

[Guest]