Feminine appreciation

[delawaredan]

A song I heard today that I wanted to share....thankful for the feminine Nagual spirit....
http://www.youtube.com/v/suBcp6FJmRk&ve ... tube_gdata

[Senear]

Good song Dan. I go a cheesier way with expressing the same sentiments, but i have one that stands n for that as well, that feeling of appreciation.


I believe in woman, my oh my
I believe in lovin', my oh my
Don't a women need a man, try and catch one if you can
I believe in woman, my oh my
We all need someone to talk to my oh my
We all need someone to talk to my oh my
Ya need a shoulder to cry on, call me I'll be standing by
We all need someone to talk to my oh my
We all need a lot of lovin' my oh my
Yeah, a whole lot of lovin' my oh my
I can lend a helpin' hand if you ain't go nothing planned
We all need some lovin' my oh oh
So let's all swing together my oh my
We can all swing together my oh my
You've got troubles on your own, no need to face them all alone
We can all swing together my oh my
So let's all pull together my oh my
So let's all pull together my oh my
We can ride the stormy weather, if we all get out and try
So let's all pull together my oh my
So let's all pull together my oh myyyyyy....

[delawaredan]

Let's all pull together....I like that....cheesy or not.

[Juliomea Kaopolis]

My favorite song about women.

Juliomea

[delawaredan]

[shamanka]

nice pic above dan, although if i dressed like that, i'm sure i would be perceived as more 'intimidating' than ever...hehehe
an addition if i may....

[Littlepaw]

[Julio Juliopolis]

Bigotry - The belief that one group of people, on the merits of their birth alone, has entitlements from the outside group which in turn has obligations to the first. For example a racially bigotted person might believe that whites are entitled to own slaves, and blacks are obligated to perform as slaves for white people. Note that hatred is not a requirement for bigotry, merely indifference. People didn't make their slaves work because they hated them, they did it because they felt entitled to do so. When angered with a slave, a bigot needed to do something else in addition to making them perform as slaves in order to feel satisfied. Indifference is far more dangerous than hate. Hell hath no fury like someone who already feels entitled to mistreat you scorned.

Promoting bigotry - The promotion of bigotry can take many forms. However behind all of them is the idealization of and/or justification of the entitlements for entitled grou; or the dehumanization of and/or justification of obligations of the obligated one.

This thread - This thread promotes bigotry by idealizing women and treating them as all entitled to our appreciation, (while ignoring all men who in any way are deserving of such). Like most bigotry when examined from a logical point of view it is absolute nonsense, as appreciation should be given on the basis of people actually doing things for us and others; not by virtue of having performed the wonderous accomplishment of being born with a vagina. Of course pointing out specific things we should be thankful to people, (of any type), for doing is not the point of this thread. Closing our eyes, breathing deeply, imagining idealized women, and then pretending that is reality is the real point of it.

[Littlepaw]

Dude did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? I doubt you really know much about slaves, I have a few theories and I think I know more than you so there : ( lol

It is an interesting point you raise about bigotry of women, how many of us escape the views and opinions of the society that raised us? it is only when we even notice we have a problem that we can set it right, like people who do not even realize they have a drinking problem I believe we are probably all of us western men bigots.

If you can explain to me what a bigot actually is and what a man like this does to a women that is wrong I will be very grateful : )

I believe I admire Ani difranco for more than her vagina because I like her music very much! if this is my bigot side then I am very lost

much ado about nothing

[Julio Juliopolis]

You are indeed lost. So immersed in the popular bigotry that you failed to even consider the possiblity that anyone could criticize it. Yes, you are right that (pretty much) all us western men are bigots, and so are the women. You got it wrong which sex we're all bigotted against though.

[Littlepaw]

Like I said It is something I've thought about and I believe something like this should be challenged, my way is to challenge this behavior within myself but everybody always thinks of me as such a nice guy that it is hard for me to see when I may actually be acting like a bigot!

I suppose I do idealize Ani difranco, Is this wrong? I used to listen to her non stop and even learned to play guitar just like (if not a little better) than her (LOLLLLLLLLLL)

I sing her songs too but some of them sound strange since Ani's lyrics tend to often be quite obviously songs about being a female. I went through a real phase of listening to female artists like Tori Amos, Ani, Fiona apple, Bjork, Joni Mitchel, learning all the melody's and humming along.

I'll tell you that I posted this video because I just wanted to join in with the thread, I did think that Juliomea Kaopolis song choice was a little iffy but then I one try's to not point fingers.

[Julio Juliopolis]

"Like I said It is something I've thought about and I believe something like this should be challenged, my way is to challenge this behavior within myself but everybody always thinks of me as such a nice guy that it is hard for me to see when I may actually be acting like a bigot! "

You are making a mistake here by thinking that bigots aren't nice people. After all, people are so complex that one undesirable trait hardly removes them from the category of nice. Especially when that trait is something they likely don't realize they have and only got as a result of constant media brainwashing and the resultant peer pressure experienced. So please, don't take the criticism so personally. I'm not trying to say anyone is bad here. I don't have a negative image of you in my head. I'm actually giving you and others credit for not wanting to promote bigotry and trying to point out that the concept of this thread does so in order that you can perhaps be more aware of what you're doing.

99%+ of the population would fail to notice the bigotry in segregating men from anything, let alone a thread about appreciating people. And men are getting segregated from more and more. I always ask if there's a good reason to keep men, (or any other birth group) segregated from something when I see it happen. Is there a non-bigotted reason to keep men locked out from the group of people we're going to show appeciation towards? Is an act less appreciation worthy if the person performing it has a penis? Would the painting Dan posted be less appreciation worthy if the angles of the body in it had been made to look male instead of female?

[delawaredan]

Julio Juliopolis wrote:Bigotry - The belief that one group of people, on the merits of their birth alone, has entitlements from the outside group which in turn has obligations to the first. For example a racially bigotted person might believe that whites are entitled to own slaves, and blacks are obligated to perform as slaves for white people. Note that hatred is not a requirement for bigotry, merely indifference. People didn't make their slaves work because they hated them, they did it because they felt entitled to do so. When angered with a slave, a bigot needed to do something else in addition to making them perform as slaves in order to feel satisfied. Indifference is far more dangerous than hate. Hell hath no fury like someone who already feels entitled to mistreat you scorned.

Promoting bigotry - The promotion of bigotry can take many forms. However behind all of them is the idealization of and/or justification of the entitlements for entitled grou; or the dehumanization of and/or justification of obligations of the obligated one.

This thread - This thread promotes bigotry by idealizing women and treating them as all entitled to our appreciation, (while ignoring all men who in any way are deserving of such). Like most bigotry when examined from a logical point of view it is absolute nonsense, as appreciation should be given on the basis of people actually doing things for us and others; not by virtue of having performed the wonderous accomplishment of being born with a vagina. Of course pointing out specific things we should be thankful to people, (of any type), for doing is not the point of this thread. Closing our eyes, breathing deeply, imagining idealized women, and then pretending that is reality is the real point of it.Would it even things out to make a male appreciation thread?       This was not meant to cause anyone offense or to be indifferent.    I am sorry it bothered you, and your point of view is valid of course.

[delawaredan]

http://www.youtube.com/v/oHlhOgQ36m8&ve ... tube_gdata


http://www.youtube.com/v/LC4GufIBps8&ve ... tube_gdata

[Littlepaw]

oh la la and, cool! I will be listening more to Nicki Bluhm and the Gramblers.

[shamanka]

thank you to jj's mother, for carrying him around for 9 months, putting her life at risk for his, and bringing him into the world to learn and practice the art of life and, to experience, all the wondrous choice of concepts, that he could choose to carry on his journey. He really loves and appreciates you for being a woman.xx

[Julio Juliopolis]

delawaredan wrote: 
Julio Juliopolis wrote:Bigotry - The belief that one group of people, on the merits of their birth alone, has entitlements from the outside group which in turn has obligations to the first. For example a racially bigotted person might believe that whites are entitled to own slaves, and blacks are obligated to perform as slaves for white people. Note that hatred is not a requirement for bigotry, merely indifference. People didn't make their slaves work because they hated them, they did it because they felt entitled to do so. When angered with a slave, a bigot needed to do something else in addition to making them perform as slaves in order to feel satisfied. Indifference is far more dangerous than hate. Hell hath no fury like someone who already feels entitled to mistreat you scorned.


Promoting bigotry - The promotion of bigotry can take many forms. However behind all of them is the idealization of and/or justification of the entitlements for entitled grou; or the dehumanization of and/or justification of obligations of the obligated one.


This thread - This thread promotes bigotry by idealizing women and treating them as all entitled to our appreciation, (while ignoring all men who in any way are deserving of such). Like most bigotry when examined from a logical point of view it is absolute nonsense, as appreciation should be given on the basis of people actually doing things for us and others; not by virtue of having performed the wonderous accomplishment of being born with a vagina. Of course pointing out specific things we should be thankful to people, (of any type), for doing is not the point of this thread. Closing our eyes, breathing deeply, imagining idealized women, and then pretending that is reality is the real point of it.
Would it even things out to make a male appreciation thread?       This was not meant to cause anyone offense or to be indifferent.    I am sorry it bothered you, and your point of view is valid of course.   
  

I know you didn't mean to cause offense with this, but thank you for saying so anyway.
True, a male appreciation thread might help to even it out, and it would be a step up, but I'm hoping we can evolve a little further and to an enlightenment level beyond "seperate but equal"

I find that sometimes, when people cannot see bigotry because they've been so immersed in it their whole lives, it helps to imagine the scenario with a different target; either by reversing the genders or switching to racial groups. So imagine if you will.... that you had come into a forum like this one day and saw a thread like this, called "White Appreciation", written by a black person. Other black people joined in, posting images of somewhat evil-looking whites wearing crowns and songs with lyrics like "I believe in whites, I believe in whites, don't no white need a black, etc." Imagine these people were really serious about this, closing their eyes and sighing to themselves about how great white people are. They felt like heros, knights in shining armor for doing this, and anyone who would point out that they were in fact supporting bigotry against themselves must therefore be the evil dragon.

Or think about it with the gender switch. If women had made a thread like this called masculine appreciation, how long do you really think it would have been before the men here returned the favor? I highly doubt it would have taken more than a day. But to continue with the example, let's say they didn't do it. Weeks went by and the only man who replied simply joined in to show his appreciation for males as well. Keeping in mind that I'm asking you this not to judge your answer as right or wrong, how would you honestly feel about those men behaving that way? How about switching back to the racial example, how would you feel about the actions there had the only white person replying simply joined in with an example of a white person they appreciated?

The actions in each case are the exact same, yet we're trained to respond to them differently. Justice itself is supposed to be blind, it's supposed to judge actions purely on the merits of the actions themselves. If one looks at an action and cannot do that until they know what race everyone involved in the action is, that person has a racist view. The same thing applies if one needs to know what gender everyone involved in the action is, that person would have a sexist view. Our society is nearly universally composed of people with the latter view. People aren't judging actions so much as judging genders, and the gender that obviously gets judged harshly is the male one.

It isn't done out of hate. It's done because we are taught to believe in and enforce roles on each other. We are taught this so thoroughly we identify with the roles, we build our self-image around them. And part of men's role is an obligation to correct gender inequalities which favor men. When men fail in this role we think of them harshly; we would call men cads or jerks if they failed to reciprocate a "masculine appreciation" thread started by women, (especially considering how rarely women show appreciation for men as a group). Women's role does not include this obligation, and in fact has an opposite entitlement aspect.

Seeing people according to their roles blinds us so that we cannot see who they really are. I don't like the words masculine and feminine for this reason. The word feminine, which is things associated with women, is linked with beauty, being soft, sweet, loving, nurturing, etc. And every time we add a word to that list we are in part taking that trait away from men. A man who has those traits is a man. He's no less of a man because of them. Nor should women get creditted when it's a man doing something. If a man is a good father to his children, he's not "Mr. Mom", he's not "In touch with his feminine side", he's a man who is acting like a man and being a good dad like many men are. But if you don't see the sexism there, try switching over to racism again. Imagine defining these traits instead as white and black and telling blacks who act like good parents that they are "in touch with their inner white person". See any bigotry there?

The concept of how our beliefs in roles and traits associated with them is excellently demonstrated in the following video. It's title is poorly chosen and doesn't actually relate to information presented in it so I hope you'll all overlook the name of it. Ironically considering my complaints, but appropriate for the thread this video was created by a woman I appreciate greatly.

[Julio Juliopolis]

shamanka wrote:thank you to jj's mother, for carrying him around for 9 months, putting her life at risk for his, and bringing him into the world to learn and practice the art of life and, to experience, all the wondrous choice of concepts, that he could choose to carry on his journey. He really loves and appreciates you for being a woman.xx
Are you debating whether or not there is bigotry against men here or are you just providing an excuse for it if there is? To me it reads like the latter, as if you're saying some bigotry against men is justified because women give birth. You're wrong about that, but rest assured I am grateful to my mother for not interfering in the autonomous processes of her body after she got pregnant by murdering me. I'm also grateful for everyone else who hasn't murdered me.


[[ Editting notes: For some reason, the formatting got screwed up in the previous post and I can't find an easy way to fix it. I deleted the end where the error occurred and put it in this reply instead. Keeping them seperate might have been a better idea in the first place. ]]

[shamanka]

i dont know what you think about any of it..its not in my sphere..this was female appreciation thread. the concept of bigotry doesnt really belong here. i actually feel bigotry doesnt exist apart from in peoples minds...and i have as little to do with the minds of people as possible, especially those who insist something exists for everyone.

do your loaded posts make me feel as a woman, that i wish to now reciprocate with a male appreciation thread...well funny that, because i wrote a poem on the appreciation of men, before you posted your comments..have i posted it in tonal after reading your posts..err no..

have you ever had to kill one of your own babies? i guess not.

[Julio Juliopolis]

shamanka wrote:i dont know what you think about any of it..its not in my sphere..this was female appreciation thread. the concept of bigotry doesnt really belong here. i actually feel bigotry doesnt exist apart from in peoples minds...and i have as little to do with the minds of people as possible, especially those who insist something exists for everyone.

do your loaded posts make me feel as a woman, that i wish to now reciprocate with a male appreciation thread...well funny that, because i wrote a poem on the appreciation of men, before you posted your comments..have i posted it in tonal after reading your posts..err no..

have you ever had to kill one of your own babies? i guess not.
 

I appreciate you Shamanka for giving me a chance to demonstrate how powerfully switching the birth group of the people involved in an action alters our perception of the action. So I'll just quote you as if you'd been saying the exact same things about people based on race...
"I don't know what you think of any of it..it's not in my sphere..this was white people appreciation thread. the concept of bigotry really doesn't belong here."
It's hard to not laugh when reading that. It highlights the bigotry very well. Most of us can easily see that the entire concept of creating a white people appreciation thread is bigotted and that someone objecting to that bigotry in such a thread is justified. When we judge actions based on the quality of the actions themselves and not on what birth groups the people involved are we can see that this thread is no less bigotted than a white people appreciation thread.

"do your loaded posts make me feel as a white person, that i wish to now reciprocate with an other races appreciation thread...well funny that, because i wrote a poem on the appreciation of other races, before you posted your comments..have i posted it in tonal after reading your posts..err no.."
Heh, nice stalking there. Of course, it's a little easier not to be fooled when we switch it over to races again. First of all, we'd wonder what "loaded posts" really meant. It's ambiguous, and seems to be implying wrongdoing on the part of the person who made the so-called "loaded" posts. The follow-up with "make me feel as a white person, that I now wish to reciprocate with an other races appreciation thread", hints that the OP had somehow insulted white people. This is of course just a stalk on your part, trying to get others to have a gut reaction of anger towards me for allegedly having wronged women somehow in my posts. It will work a lot of the time on many people. With races however, we tend to be a little less gut-reactiony and more thinky. We typically would actually look for the implied insult to whites, and not blur the difference between objecting to bigotry against non-whites with being anti-white in our minds. Finally, after rousing this anger against me you then try to blame me for you not reciprocating. This is just a simple case of confusing cause and effect darling. My pointing out that the women hadn't reciprocated happened AFTER this thread had been around a month and women didn't reciprocate, it was not the CAUSE of it. Your "I was going to post it but because of him I'm not going to anymore!" sounds like grade school manipulation. When I was a child my little sister used to do something similar when we argued "I was going to make something for you but not now!" I think she was 12 when she finally realized she wasn't fooling me with it.

Not that I'm trying to suggest that women NEVER reciprocate this sort of thing, just that it's pretty rare. They, (for the most part), don't feel obligated to do so. They see "female only" or "for women" as progress and something they are entitled to. People don't like it when you object to what they believe are their entitlements.

[Littlepaw]

Julio I am afraid I do not see your logic with this,

'' whites wearing crowns and songs with lyrics like "I believe in whites, I believe in whites, don't no white need a black, etc." ''

White People do have pro white songs but they are white supremacists songs! why would a black person make a white appreciation thread and then post white supremacy videos?

[shamanka]

back to topic....
oh yeah christina.....id appreciate you...lolol

[Julio Juliopolis]

Littlepaw wrote:Julio I am afraid I do not see your logic with this,


'' whites wearing crowns and songs with lyrics like "I believe in whites, I believe in whites, don't no white need a black, etc." ''

White People do have pro white songs but they are white supremacists songs! why would a black person make a white appreciation thread and then post white supremacy videos?


 

Well, I'll try explaining the logic a bit more thoroughly then in the hopes that it will be more easily understood.

1. Actions should be judged solely on the merits of the actions themselves.
2. When evaluating an action involving person A and person B, we need not know anything about the birth groups of humans A or B in order to judge the action. It is no better or worse for human A to do X to human B than it is for human B to do that same X to human A. I suggest that anyone who does not accept this proposition is promoting elitism and bigotry.
3. Because the qualities of the action does not change based on the birth groups of those involved, we are able to switch the birth groups involved in an action to see if our judment changes. If our judgement does change, than in some way we must be letting our view of the birth groups cloud our judgement.
4. This is the reason for the tactic of switching the birth groups involved. I've been suggesting that this thread is promoting bigotry and trying to show this by pointing out the different perceptions we would have of it were the birth groups involved different. You're use of the term "white supremacist" shows that you do indeed see the bigotry if the same actions occured involving other birth groups.

To answer the last question "Why would a black person make a white appreciation thread and then post white supremacy videos?", I'll say I'd be quite surprised if that happened. The black people I've known have been able to recognize bigotry against them and do not support it. But if they didn't recognize it and did support it, it would be worthwhile to examine why. Men frequently fail to recognize bigotry against them and often support it when it occurs. I claim this is due to media brainwashing of both men and women to not see bigotry against men as bigotry, and to think of such things as positive. Since these beliefs are not only about our self image that was being pushed on us since we were in diapers but also continually foisted on us by the media and peer pressure from nearly everyone we meet we tend to fight dropping them or seeing without them. No matter how obvious the bigotry would be with any other group.

[edit: fixing a formatting error]

[Julio Juliopolis]

shamanka wrote:back to topic....
oh yeah christina.....id appreciate you...lolol
"Pay no attention to the man pointing out the bigotry of our white appreciation thread and let's get back to doing it more!"

[Littlepaw]

I have a question Julio

If we eradicated bigot ism from our selves would we still recognize it in others?