How to become a New Seer.

[ninth octave]

Thanks Bob May for sharing your ineffable 
spiritual experience and how the these spiritual stones will be markers on our personal journey. I heard this sermon over the radio on Joshua 4:4-8 a few days ago and thought of you  and what you are meaning and how this can apply for the new seer 
as their levels of awareness become deepened. We are reminded to remember and keep our own personal Gilgal.
 you
Joshua 4:4-8
        "On the tenth day of the first month the people went up from the Jordan and camped at Gilgal on the eastern border of Jericho. And Joshuah set up at Gilgal the twelve stones they had taken out of the Jordan. He said to the Israelites, "In the future when your descendants ask their fathers, "What do these stones mean? tell them, Israel crossed the Jordan on dry ground.'For the LORD your God dried up the Jordan before you until  had crossed over. The LORD your God did to the Jordan just what he had done to the Red Sea when we had crossed over. He did this so that all peoples of the earth might know the LORD your God and so that you might always know that the hand of the LORD is powerful and so that you fear the LORD your God.

[Bob May]

Hey Ninth,
Good example of setting up a marker. Crossing the Jordan into the Promised Land is definitely one that would fit as something intended for all. And so to mark it is to point to it's importance.
You can also look at these markers as markers in our memories.
My teacher used to say that if you want to repeat an experience, you remember the feeling associated with it. Though something as important as this, you would never forget. And maybe that is the idea of stones. They last longer than anything in this earth plane.
About 2 1/2 years ago I was working as a security officer at the flood site in Cedar Rapids Iowa. The entire downtown area was abandoned and without electricity and I was there for a full month from 6 pm to 6 am all by myself. I had a lot of time to ponder things. Staying alert and lack of sleep kind of altered my awareness of my surroundings.
It occured to me that, in a way, I "owned" everything I was surrounded by. In a way that the actual owners did not, I was making use of their land and buildings.
I would guess that the Promised Land is something like that. No matter where we are, a "spiritual appreciation" of our surroundings is our inheritance. People can put up fences and write deeds and stake claims, but if they are not "seeing", they are not in the promised land.
And now after thousands of years the same two groups are fighting and killling each other over their "inheritance", not knowing that that "inheritance" was actually spiritual in nature, not the physical land they have been warring over. Those who see through the veils of this world are the inheritors.
I have only had glimses here an there but enough to know that that is what it is. Again the importance of a map. You know when you are approaching something even if you cannot imagine what that something is.

[Jessicar.parallelperception]

Bob,
I enjoy reading about your path of sorcery through Biblical text.  I put the Bible aside years ago after a childhood and young adulthood raised in the church.  In recent years, I've been able to look at Biblical stories and parables in a different light and your elucidation of them has assisted me in being able to view them in a healthier and more open manner than the POV I was raised with.
Studying Biblical texts, viewing them as allegory, delving into the parables, and making the stories and dialogue come alive have not been the tools I've used on my journey----I've chosen other tools---but, your ability to expand upon them and make them alive in the context of sorcery is refreshing.
They are truly yours to divine, detail, and deliver.  When I read what you share, I'm not drawn to use of the same tool, although I've observed your passion for their elucidation and the carefulness and respect that you give as you share your perspective.   It's like viewing a craftsman who knows his craft intimately and exercises it tenderly.

[Guest]

i think i've gone off-course here, but anyway ~

it seems to me that at the very outset of their quests, the old seers and new seers are different in that the old seers were seeking to use what they found to elevate their status as human beings - that is to say they followed their own intents. the new seers are seeking to use what they find to illuminate their totality - which is to say that they align themselves with the intent of the nagual. i believe that the old seers were enticed to become obsessed with power, and because of it, they only understood hierarchy and thus made themselves students and followers of the death defiers and the inorganic beings. the new seers are aligned with freedom and freedom only - although they may associate with these beings they offer themselves to the nagual. the only way i see to become a new seer is to reduce the amount of energy you give to your tonal and the tonal at large - to undo your self.  for people who like the cc books, i think it's pretty obvious that the books give us two examples to follow, don juan who represents freedom, the new seers, and the nagual.... and carlos who represents entanglement, the tonal, and the old seers. don juan is available in dreaming to those who seek freedom.

[scout1]

the only actual relevance is: ACT, EVOLVE To free oneself from the Adversary (Predator). Thats the real issue for 99,998 % of visitors and members of this site. The real issue, any other discourse is completely missing the focal point.



and it doesnt matter if i am, christian, buddhist, apprentice, anybody.



Majority of people reading this forum are completely missing that..



THATS THE ONLY REAL ISSUE: ANY OTHER ATTITUDE IS COMPLETELY MISLEADING



You better feel the awe.



To realize and declare the war is NOW or NEVER.



Any other attitude of concentration, action, of practise, of discipline, is completely meaningless





This forum is full of **** in this regard, FI writing here.

[scout1]

I SEE NO OTHER POINT, ANY OTHER ATTITUDE IS ****



Sorcerers say, and believe me, not out of cynicism, that every ideal we deal with in terms of spiritual traditions, religions, etc, is a device concocted by the flyers to keep us in a lull. Imagine our disquietude upon examining, weighing and pondering this proposition.







http://www.oldnagualnet.c...INTERVIEWS/KINDRED1.HTML





Question:

Don Juan Matus describes the world as being predatory in nature, which is at variance to perhaps all other mystical, shamanic and esoteric traditions. Can you comment on this?



Answer:

In the tradition of the sorcerers to which don Juan belongs, it is maintained that the universe is predatorial in nature. For sorcerers, this is not a matter of speculation or of metaphorical predilection - they know for a fact that it is predatorial. Throughout the ages they have described the condition of man, which is about the bleakest description we know. As time goes by, this description gains more and more ground. Sorcerers say that just as we keep chickens, or gallinas in Spanish, in a coop, or a gallinero, some entities that come from a universe of awareness keep us in human coops. Sorcerers make a joke and say that those entities, which they call flyers, or voladores, keep us human beings, or seres humanos, cooped up in humaneros.



The flyers of the sorcerers' tradition are black shadows that we sometimes detect and explain away as floaters in the retina. Sorcerers know for a fact, by means of their capacity to see energy directly, that those shadows are predatorial and that they keep us alive in order to devour our awareness. Sorcerers say that our awareness is like a sheen around our total field of energy that looks to them like a luminous ball. To them, this sheen of awareness is like a plastic cover that would make the luminous ball shine even more if it were not for the fact that it has been eaten away down to the level of our heels.



Here is where the sorcerers description gets very disturbing to us; sorcerers say that the only sheen of awareness left in us by our eaters is the awareness of self-reflection. Therefore, all we are left with is the concern with me, myself and I. In our personal lives we have corroborated that the only force left in the immediate world around us is the force of self-importance, which comes disguised in the form of humility, compassion, altruism, kindness, you name it.



This sorcerer's description is of course our ultimate nemesis; we don't want to believe that we are being raised for food. In this sense, naturally, the sorcerers' tradition is at total variance with any other kind of spiritual tradition. Sorcerers say, and believe me, not out of cynicism, that every ideal we deal with in terms of spiritual traditions, religions, etc, is a device concocted by the flyers to keep us in a lull. Imagine our disquietude upon examining, weighing and pondering this proposition.



Question:

What is the 'jump for freedom' and what is 'death' to those people who have not made this 'jump'?



Answer:

We understand that the jump to freedom is equivalent to evolving in a premeditated way. For sorcerers, the natural reason for our lives, aside from being eaten by the flyers, is to fend off our attackers in order to allow our awareness to grow to its full capacity. To complete this task is an evolutionary step which sorcerers call the jump to freedom. We haven't reached that state so we truly don't know what it means.



Your question of what death is to people who have not made this jump can be answered by sorcerers very simply by telling you that people who do not allow the regrowth of awareness die by being eaten by the flyers.

[scout1]

THERE IS TECHNICALLY NO OTHER WAY TO BECOME NEW SEER



THIS THE ONLY MECHANISM !!! ( as it is described thru seeing)



TO FREEDOM, LIBERATION



(To get to the profanated "Enlightment")



The ways do not differ its the return to the SILENT KNOWLEDGE.. in every tradition: THRU WORK, CONCENTRATION.



AFTER THAT You get on the actual course.





WAKE UP !!!!

[Nu Lang]

mothsdream wrote:i think i've gone off-course here, but anyway ~

it seems to me that at the very outset of their quests, the old seers and new seers are different in that the old seers were seeking to use what they found to elevate their status as human beings - that is to say they followed their own intents. the new seers are seeking to use what they find to illuminate their totality - which is to say that they align themselves with the intent of the nagual. i believe that the old seers were enticed to become obsessed with power, and because of it, they only understood hierarchy and thus made themselves students and followers of the death defiers and the inorganic beings. the new seers are aligned with freedom and freedom only - although they may associate with these beings they offer themselves to the nagual. the only way i see to become a new seer is to reduce the amount of energy you give to your tonal and the tonal at large - to undo your self.  for people who like the cc books, i think it's pretty obvious that the books give us two examples to follow, don juan who represents freedom, the new seers, and the nagual.... and carlos who represents entanglement, the tonal, and the old seers. don juan is available in dreaming to those who seek freedom.I agree with you Moth. In the case of Carlos, I think he purposely made himself in the position of the tonal seeker, to represent that as a link for us to identify with him and then cross over via Don Juan's level of attention that contrasted it. Good cop bad cop if you will. We naturally gravitated towards DJ as a result of Carlos's antics and how inferior they presented themselves. In terms of power, the old seers are inferior. If Carlos just told us abotu it in words, it would not mean much, but if he BECAME that, there is more to that that sinks into our attention forever permeating our awareness as we progress and see that contrast for ourselves.
The foreign installation dominated the old seers, and everyone born is subjected to the flyer as well...that means us...so we need to see whats in our mind in order to evict it, evict the old seers ways. Carlos showed us. It never appeared to me he expected people to emulate him, but rather DJ. Thats very telling that he knew what he was doing all along. If he really wanted tonal power, he would have disguised himself to appear flawless. What I feel he did was give an honest account of a man who sought to become a new seer (him), and the honesty was a warriors gesture of transparency about what was inside him that he did not want to pay allegiance to. If he had doubts, he worte abotu it, if he had anger, he wrote about it, if he had fear he wrote about it...he held nothing back. Facing ourselves in this way IS what is required.

[Bob May]

Jessicar wrote:
Bob,
I enjoy reading about your path of sorcery through Biblical text.  I put the Bible aside years ago after a childhood and young adulthood raised in the church.  In recent years, I've been able to look at Biblical stories and parables in a different light and your elucidation of them has assisted me in being able to view them in a healthier and more open manner than the POV I was raised with.
Studying Biblical texts, viewing them as allegory, delving into the parables, and making the stories and dialogue come alive have not been the tools I've used on my journey----I've chosen other tools---but, your ability to expand upon them and make them alive in the context of sorcery is refreshing.
They are truly yours to divine, detail, and deliver.  When I read what you share, I'm not drawn to use of the same tool, although I've observed your passion for their elucidation and the carefulness and respect that you give as you share your perspective.   It's like viewing a craftsman who knows his craft intimately and exercises it tenderly.  

Hi Jess,
I appreciate your kind words. Too many of us were raised with a letter of the law mentality. It's not really the teacher's fault but a case of the blind leading the blind. They are teaching what they were taught and fell into the same system. Teaching Old Covenant law and calling it Christianity. It has always been that way. I was fortunate as a young man to find a teacher who looked more deeply into scriptures.
According to Hebrew scholars it was written on four levels of interpretation;
Literal, Implied, Allegorical and Mystical.
In my opinion, it must be read with the attitude of "I don't understand it", what does this mean? Because unlike the Hebrew scholars, I believe there are even more levels to it and we can never get to the bottom of it.
The bible is really a book about awareness and needs to be read that way. It is a treasure that was hidden right in front of us, growing up. Most of us had a copy laying around somewhere unread.
I don't throw out knowledge from other sources, but the bible is "home base" for me.
It is good to keep an open mind.

[scout1]

I see the Recapitulation as the process.





---





I see the "flyer" as a loss of time, loss of life dimension, love, power. A loss of time. An obstacle to full life development.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

SCOUT1 Writes:



"The only actual relevance is: ACT, EVOLVE To free oneself from the Adversary (Predator). Thats the real issue for 99,998 % of visitors and members of this site. The real issue, any other discourse is completely missing the focal point.



and it doesnt matter if i am, christian, buddhist, apprentice, anybody.



Majority of people reading this forum are completely missing that..



THATS THE ONLY REAL ISSUE: ANY OTHER ATTITUDE IS COMPLETELY MISLEADING



You better feel the awe.



To realize and declare the war is NOW or NEVER.



Any other attitude of concentration, action, of practise, of discipline, is completely meaningless"





I have to agree for any warrior to advance and become a New Seer they must defeat the foreign installation and achieve inner silence.

[ninth octave]

Bob May wrote:
Hey Ninth,
Good example of setting up a marker. Crossing the Jordan into the Promised Land is definitely one that would fit as something intended for all. And so to mark it is to point to it's importance.
You can also look at these markers as markers in our memories.
My teacher used to say that if you want to repeat an experience, you remember the feeling associated with it. Though something as important as this, you would never forget. And maybe that is the idea of stones. They last longer than anything in this earth plane.
About 2 1/2 years ago I was working as a security officer at the flood site in Cedar Rapids Iowa. The entire downtown area was abandoned and without electricity and I was there for a full month from 6 pm to 6 am all by myself. I had a lot of time to ponder things. Staying alert and lack of sleep kind of altered my awareness of my surroundings.
It occured to me that, in a way, I "owned" everything I was surrounded by. In a way that the actual owners did not, I was making use of their land and buildings.
I would guess that the Promised Land is something like that. No matter where we are, a "spiritual appreciation" of our surroundings is our inheritance. People can put up fences and write deeds and stake claims, but if they are not "seeing", they are not in the promised land.
And now after thousands of years the same two groups are fighting and killling each other over their "inheritance", not knowing that that "inheritance" was actually spiritual in nature, not the physical land they have been warring over. Those who see through the veils of this world are the inheritors.
I have only had glimses here an there but enough to know that that is what it is. Again the importance of a map. You know when you are approaching something even if you cannot imagine what that something is.     Hi Bob May, 
      I would also like to express my appreciation for all these great postings that are combined with biblical spiritual wisdom and fine-tuned warrior knowledge.It seems like you are an ol' soul bro as you'll affirm on confirm a shared finding.
      Ninth

[sharon]

Why is too spiritual? Either it is or isn't true, lone wolf says he has been there it is what I imagined

[Guest]

[Eilias123]

What I mean to say with dreaming. I don't limit it to foreign installation and myself. I have come up with my own model for dreaming, in order to do this I had to completely abandon what I had read in TAOD. But even some things in TAOD confirm some of my findings.



My dreams revolve a lot around shared dreams. How is this possible? Two or more dreamers remembering the same dream events? In Castaneda terms it's simply a few dreamers all put their AP in the same dreaming position. In castaneda terms it's simply that!



BUT!!!



In order to have shared dreams, at least one of the dreamers has to use their dream body to travel. To say that you have to create a dream body in order to do that is ridiculous. I have logged shared dreams of people who know nothing of Nagualism.



Theory:



Your inner world: This is simply the space you dream in when you don't travel out of body. This is the dream bubble that LW speaks of. you can mold it into anything that you wish to. Other dreamers, IOBs, and other entities can inhabit this bubble with you, and they can even "live" there if they wish to.

some of shared dreaming involves you inviting others into your own inner world bubble, or vice versa, you can travel to theirs. If you dream you are in your house, school or job, or combination of all these things, it's probably your inner world.



The Dream plane: You can construct outside of your inner world more dream bubbles that can serve as public dreaming places. Many places on our physical earth have a twin plane in a dream bubble. These are constructed by the "hive mind" dreams of everyone and everything that dreams on this planet. So in essence you can go to, stonehenge, pyramids in egypt, Atlantis and the moon. and these are REAL and TANGIBLE dreaming places! And people use their dream body to travel to these locations more often they are even aware of. The trick is stalking your dream self to realize this!



Beyond what I call the Dream Plane, exist other real and tangible places accessible from dreaming, or using you dream body. These are Alternate Dimensions. Everything you've read in fantasy novels, seen in a cartoon, or any alternate choice you would have made in life exists as another dimension or a parallel universe accessible through dreams.



Your deep dream self: What Lonewolf says is true: there is still your "double" which lives out a whole other life in dreams. We often forget our deep dream self or it's doings, but it is you, even though it's a part of yourself you might not ever see or acknowledge. It's extremely difficult to remember your deep dream self. This self has lived a completely different life than you since you were born. I think what Lonewolf talks about projecting you double in our physical reality is real. A shamanic death makes this possible, But truly stalking your double is a difficult feat. as it's knowings and doing are so beyond what we are trained to think of ourselves as, that the conscious mind simply can not handle this reality, unless you get rid of energetic garbage that is blocking you.



IOBs: I do think that the beings that Castaneda wrote about are real. However, the "dream plane," is not limited to you and these beings. When you have a more broad minded view of the dreaming reality like I do, that includes interdimensional beings, spirits of the dead, dream guides, other guides from the endless earth, it opens a more wide use to "dreaming". In my opinion while IOBs may not tell you lies, they DO simply refrain from telling you the truth and stalk you in such a way that you might never ask them about this. Remember they are fishermen and you are the fish! Given their way, they will convince you that everything in a dream is then and nothing can be done in dreams without their help. This is a load of BS.



A rule for dreaming: Everything in the dream requires your attention to exist.



In essence if all you think is that there is in dreaming is IOBs, that's all you will dream about. If you think all dreams are just inside your head, then that's all you will remember dreaming about. Whatever "rules," that you give more attention to about dreams the more your dreams will seem that way. So be careful what "rules" you have for dreams. If they do not fit your heart, simply discard those rules and make new ones better suited for your aim.



As for life and Death: We are life force force, pure energy that is neither created nor destroyed. Our physical bodies have amnesia of the true nature of our soul: that we exist in some form of sentience forever. I don't ignore the counts of past and future lives. In death our soul sheds our physical and astral bodies and is directed to the Endless earth. Where souls are learned and guided toward their next lives, and then they are sent back to earth or somewhere else.



I believe what Naguals like don Juan have done is perfected their dream bodies to exist permanently, so that they may exist elsewhere in pure awareness of who and what they are, There is no amnesia! and that They bypass the In between lifetime soul school altogether. That is a feat. But it's not my goal to do that. I do question the soul school however... As it is a system of slavery... being sent to earth again and again, forgetting who you are... going towards someone else's agenda.



Just my crazy ideas anyway.

[Turin Otzaki]

Very interesting Eilias, I really like how you dont follow CC's words like they are a bible.



if you feel like it, Id be interested to know how your experience with Dreaming has effected your everyday life? and what it has given you in general.

[Nu Lang]

"In essence if all you think is that there is in dreaming is IOBs, that's all you will dream about. If you think all dreams are just inside your head, then that's all you will remember dreaming about. Whatever "rules," that you give more attention to about dreams the more your dreams will seem that way. So be careful what "rules" you have for dreams. If they do not fit your heart, simply discard those rules and make new ones better suited for your aim."



I disagree, I have been reached to in dreaming regardless of my awareness level not being on par with the one who located me to aid me. I could not have fathomed such a beings but there they were. Power seeks us and then we respond. So much analysis Eilias, really it all boils down to power. An external factor. I think that makes people uneasy...the feeling that somethign out there is seeking them its like saying its out of their control. That's where we have to just decide that power already chose us long ago. All of us here have drempt with power, otherwise we would not be here at such a site. What we need to do is tune into our link. Stop thinking/analyzing so much.

[Guest]

Nu Lang wrote: Power seeks us and then we respond. that power already chose us long ago. All of us here have drempt with power, otherwise we would not be here at such a site. What we need to do is tune into our link.
NICE!

[Bob May]

Nu Lang wrote:
"In essence if all you think is that there is in dreaming is IOBs, that's all you will dream about. If you think all dreams are just inside your head, then that's all you will remember dreaming about. Whatever "rules," that you give more attention to about dreams the more your dreams will seem that way. So be careful what "rules" you have for dreams. If they do not fit your heart, simply discard those rules and make new ones better suited for your aim."
I disagree, I have been reached to in dreaming regardless of my awareness level not being on par with the one who located me to aid me. I could not have fathomed such a beings but there they were. Power seeks us and then we respond. So much analysis Eilias, really it all boils down to power. An external factor. I think that makes people uneasy...the feeling that somethign out there is seeking them its like saying its out of their control. That's where we have to just decide that power already chose us long ago. All of us here have drempt with power, otherwise we would not be here at such a site. What we need to do is tune into our link. Stop thinking/analyzing so much.
I've been reading the Nag Hammadi Scrolls the last few days. It is a collection of writings of "Gnostics." They were a group of 1st and 2nd Century Christians who believed that Knowledge (Gnosis) came from real live spiritual experience. And they had been practicing their faith in that way.
Along comes a guy named Ireneus and decides that all Christians should believe the same things in the same ways and called the Gnostics "Heretics." That was they were not playing the game according to the rules that he layed down as the foundations for his ideas about what a Christian should believe. So he basically built a fence around his ideas and left the Gnostics outside of that fence.
He was working from a "stacked deck." Obviously if he said those who believed in personal experience were wrong, then that pretty much meant that he had had no personal experiences.
We need rules or borders of some sort just to define things. But we can go too far with them also, especially when it comes to spirtual things. How do we know how the Spirit will decide to manifest to us next? We do not.
Rules have their place, but it is kind of like the "Pirate Code."  It's more like guidelines than laws.

[ninth octave]

Last time I looked at some thing, some one-  no one could be so certain to know exactly what it was I was really seeing or hearing or believing for that matter. Old / new dreamers, old/new seers,  or an old /new testament mindset has always been about the inward journey and spiritual evolution  of man's perception.  It is a great wonder that two minds could even  fully see things exactly the same as a third mind could.  I am not your mind or thoughts, your seeing, your dreaming ,your visions or voice. There is freedom in this and also a real accountability for knowing it this way. It is a pure miracle when two or more are in perfect agreement and see it through the eons.

[dreamways]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:One starts with reading and exploring the world's knowledge. The ancient beliefs and texts. Learning about the mysteries of life. Relating to the living beings in your world. Trees, animals, insects, fish, how they relate to the world and to us. Learning to silence your mind so you can listen.

 Dreaming is key. You create a dreaming body and practice lucid moments in dreaming. Advancing this is to leave the body and be aware of the "complete" double you do this with. Once you have passed certain "gates" in dreaming the awake world becomes more fluid and your perception begins to change, waver.


 You will begin to change and realize what extent your control of your human mind is really yours. If you become a warrior you will seek to battle your inner "demon or foreign installation". Once you win this battle you will have to reconstruct your inner dialogue because it is how you have learned to function all those years. You will realize nothing matters. Death of the human body is final. You may seek escape from death. This will take learning to shift your awareness. 

A New Seer embraces the dreaming challenge. Learns to control the internal dialogue. Forms intent and becomes a fluid warrior/person. The expression "man of knowledge" applies to the new seers as it means they know the world for what it is and how it relates to the universe.
The new seers now must use this transformation and create the new path with heart for that is what the old seers lacked...heart.


Comments and questions are appreciated!

What are your intentions as far as being a teacher go? Who is your personal guide, if you have one, and what or who is it that you are trying to connect your students with, beyond any ideas, if there is anything? Do you see yourself as part of a lineage? If so, what lineage?

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Dreamways asks: What are your intentions as far as being a teacher go? Who is your personal guide, if you have one, and what or who is it that you are trying to connect your students with, beyond any ideas, if there is anything? Do you see yourself as part of a lineage? If so, what lineage?



I am a guide as far communicating with those who are in the study of Naguals and on the path of warrior. My personal guide is my ally and of course the nagual spirit. As I have no students, I am defining my experience, inner knowledge and sharing it with those whose beliefs are similar to mine. I do know I am of the wolf lineage and that lineage is as old as dirt. To my personal knowledge there are several lineages involving sorcery in this world.

[Guest]

Eilias123 wrote:

A rule for dreaming: Everything in the dream requires your attention to exist.


WTF?!?!?

[dreamways]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:My personal guide is my ally
You mean an inorganic being?

[dreamways]

or do you mean that you see the wolf of the wolf lineage itself and that is your ally, not an inorganic being. it is just that Castaneda referred to inorganic beings as "allies," so i'm not sure what you meant.