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alien wrote:I'm not trying to be difficult - just pointing out
that Toltec advocates the eventual loss of ALL belief systems,
including its own. So when you make arguments that APPEAR to be based
on your personal beliefs, I think you're going to find some challenges
from others who may not just blindly agree.
Question....
EVERYTHING!
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PS
I'd pay a million bucks....
to a teacher, or nagual who could promise me....FREEDOM!!
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Enchantra wrote:
alien wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult - just pointing out that Toltec advocates the eventual loss of ALL belief systems, including its own. So when you make arguments that APPEAR to be based on your personal beliefs, I think you're going to find some challenges from others who may not just blindly agree.
Question....
EVERYTHING!
Absolutely! It wasn't until someone really pounded that into my head that I *saw* the value of it. Prior to that, I believed that what I believed was Truth, when the reality was that it was only belief. When we start asking ourselves WHY we believe certain things... that's when we really start to see the schism between who we ARE and who we THINK we are.
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alien wrote:
Question....
EVERYTHING!
Absolutely! It wasn't until someone really pounded that into my head that I *saw* the value of it. Prior to that, I believed that what I believed was Truth, when the reality was that it was only belief. When we start asking ourselves WHY we believe certain things... that's when we really start to see the schism between who we ARE and who we THINK we are.
I guess I've been lucky in that regard, I'm very analytical and so always want to understand and see for myself. Constantly asking "Why?" and "How?"
Usually drives people around me a little crazy and up till now I thought it was an irritating trait to possess, however, I now see the value in this way of being.
Actually, I think I read this is something new from don Miguel maybe, is this the Fifth Agreement? I think so.
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All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.All beings/things are equal, but not all are magical in how they perceive the world available to them. Only those touched by the nagual know magic because they perceive it. Nagual referred to here as not being a person, but 'the nagual'. These magical beings can band together as warrior parties with the purpose of journeying through infinity. Power decides the formation of the party and each warrior belongs to/forms only one party, though parties and members of different lineages can converse and benefit from those exchanges. For a magical being to see that open path available to them, first they must drop the rationale that makes the world appear so concrete and 'negotiable', is if the mind can make things any way it wants them to be. In truth there is no negotiating, either you follow power or are left behind with ordinary men (those not accessing the nagual). Once one sees this is the only option, they see also that the only source that can guide them from then on is the one that has lead them to this very realization of perception to begin with. And at this time they realize...it was always Spirit, it was never them. There is no them that is magical, Spirit delivered the knock and to answer it they must surrender the ego (mind) to continue this magical journey.
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Because, once they have banded together, the warrior party functions as a unit with Intent as their guide. This is not the same as the teacher-student relationships set up in social contexts i.e. piano teacher and piano student, two separate units.
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Nu Lang wrote:but not all are magical
Really?
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One thing certain, it can't be bought nor sold, not even for a billion bucks.
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Zero wrote:One thing certain, it can't be bought nor sold, not even for a billion bucks.
A billion trucks?
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Yeah, not even a billion trucks.
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Zero wrote:Yeah, not even a billion trucks.
Dang! That sucks....
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Nu Lang:
Jessica, about the tonal and nagual. Tonal is form.
Earlier post:
Nu Lang: The nagual can only be witnessed
yet its nothing.
Jessica: As can also be said about the tonal.
You are reiterating your earlier position which is to separate the tonal and the nagual unnecessarily. It's all energy---and when we differentiate that energy between awareness and attention and intent and form and nothing we think it helps us to grasp those abstract concepts better when, in actuality, we only limit ourselves.
The attention placed
upon the tonal can be the one-size fits all mentality, which is the FI,
false mind.
What does this sentence mean? Because you've decided that the tonal and the nagual are different, you must then force other concepts to follow suit--to support your initial proposition. But if that initial proposition is limited, the supporting evidence also becomes limited. The attention placed upon the tonal can be the one-size fits all mentality--but, you exclude what else it can be. The attention placed upon the tonal can also be what leads us directly to the nagual.
I've gone to a cave on the side of an ocean cliffside for nearly 10 years now. The cave, as you can imagine, is form. Over the years, the cave has taught me many, many sorcery concepts. For a portion of those years, I continued to make a distinction between the tonal and the nagual---the cave was a substitute until a "real" nagual appeared, the cave's teachings could only be accessed if I was physically seated in it, the cave was, in essence, my "higher self". All of these were ways for me to make the cave exclusively the realm of the tonal---after all, it is a physical object. I was limiting what I could perceive because I had expectations that distinguished the tonal from the nagual.
When one uses this attention to perceive the world, the
nagaul is what's missing. Thats why we have average men and warriors.
Average men cannot access the nagaul, warriors can.
Average men access the nagual all of the time---they see beauty, they love others, they pursue "spiritual" pursuits. What they are less inclined to do is to pursue it in its entirety--as we, warriors/sorcerers/seers/naguals, claim to do. Part of what CC did--maybe it was the 'tonal of his times', to use a phrase from his writings---was to make sorcery exclusive, so exclusive that the "average" man didn't stand a chance. Limiting.
The nagual I agree
with you is witnessed here, but the nagual is not the tonal, the nagual
is nothing. It changes the perception of the tonal into a magical world.
What does "the nagual is nothing" mean? Can you provide me with an example of the nagual is nothing from your experience? The reason I ask is because sometimes I do the same thing that you may be doing here: using syntax philosophically or theoretically, without having hands on experience. And----I don't necessarily think that experience is the sina quo non of sorcery---but, it sure gets one further than the idealistic use of syntax.
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The nagual can never be defined. It can be witnessed but once one talks about it they are defining it, and that definition will never encompass what the nagual is. We know it directly in perception, everyone can access it directly. It is not the tonal but is witnessed through the tonal the same way death is known through life. The tonal can also be experienced without nagual perception, which is the false mind.
For Enchantra, about magical beings, it means not everyone is a magical being because not everyone is a sorcerer. The world through the eyes of a sorcerer is magcial, yes, everything they witness...including others, is magical, yes, but not all beings will become sorcerers.
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Nu Lang wrote:
For Enchantra, about magical beings, it means not everyone is a magical being because not everyone is a sorcerer. The world through the eyes of a sorcerer is magcial, yes, everything they witness...including others, is magical, yes, but not all beings will become sorcerers.
I see, I didn't get that you were equating magical beings with sorcerers. Synonymous?
And I do agree that not all beings will become Sorcerers, because I think a Sorcerer is born, no?
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Nu Lang wrote:
All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.All beings/things are equal, but not all are magical in how they perceive the world available to them.
You just contradicted yourself. If all beings are equal, then all beings are magical. All I'm trying to do here is bring to your attention that you are creating a false reality rooted in a false belief which seems to be telling you that naguals are somehow "better" than anyone else. I know you will say that isn't what you believe - and I believe you when you say that - but if I just take you at your "words" here, you are projecting something that may be quite different than what you actually Intend.
Only those touched by the nagual know magic because they perceive it. Nagual referred to here as not being a person, but 'the nagual'. These magical beings can band together as warrior parties with the purpose of journeying through infinity. Power decides the formation of the party and each warrior belongs to/forms only one party, though parties and members of different lineages can converse and benefit from those exchanges.
Absolutely no offense intended here, but this sounds like a role-playing game and not the actuality of warrior parties. Remember, DJM told Carlos many times that the old lineage was finished. Just as the old seers were finished. I don't think "warrior parties" nowadays bear much resemblance to what was described in CC's books. And, for that matter, why would one need a "party" to journey through infinity? If one achieves the totality of oneself - conjoins with one's double and becomes what I call a "singularity of consciousness" - one is essentially whole throughout time/space and beyond. We could assume from that point that the Whole Being could interact with whoever/whatever it might chooe. Now, I realize we're discussing CC's ideas here, but my point is simply this: don't get so married to someone else's "idea" that you lose sight of your own power and possibility. CC is dead. Sad, but true. We are on our own. Each of us. Yes, we can help one another. But a warrior party? Seems unlikely on the internet.
For a magical being to see that open path available to them, first they must drop the rationale that makes the world appear so concrete and 'negotiable', is if the mind can make things any way it wants them to be. In truth there is no negotiating, either you follow power or are left behind with ordinary men (those not accessing the nagual). Once one sees this is the only option, they see also that the only source that can guide them from then on is the one that has lead them to this very realization of perception to begin with. And at this time they realize...it was always Spirit, it was never them. There is no them that is magical, Spirit delivered the knock and to answer it they must surrender the ego (mind) to continue this magical journey.
This implies that Spirit singled them out and didn't single others out. Therefore, it further implies that all beings are not equal.
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Because, once they have banded together, the warrior party functions as a unit with Intent as their guide. This is not the same as the teacher-student relationships set up in social contexts i.e. piano teacher and piano student, two separate units.
I can see that having other warriors around can be inspirational and motivational, but it is still a solitary journey when all is said and done. We are all "separate units" even when working together. The reason I feel it is crucial to acknowledge this is that for as long as anyone believes they are part of a "group", there can be a tendency to kick back and let "the group" do most of the work... at which point the person gets to the end of the road only to discover that "The Work" was not something that could be done for them, even by the best warrior party in the universe. In all honesty, I've come to believe (and it's only a belief) over the years, that CC's descriuption of the warrior party was probably one of the LEAST believable and least "likely" scenarios in all of his works. It seems more like symbolism than reality - an exporation of the different aspects of the self, a metaphor for finding our own strengths. Are we scouts? Dreamers? Stalkers? Couriers?
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the moment one forms a "committee" one can essentially count on getting nothing done. LOL. I also think that's why CC so often wrote about the fights and disagreements within the warrior party. Put that many people together in ANY circumstance, and they will turn to a roomful of tomcats in battle. Just human nature. And I think that's why one of the major conclusions DJM often stressed was that it really IS a solitary journey.
Just my opinion.
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I'd like to make a comment here, since we're approaching the nonsense of being born something special and unique, ala Harry Potter or Neo.
First, we're all potential Buddhas, all capable of achieving the totality of self, that being a unique being in the universe, and as stated elsewhere, capable of marvelous things. One of the steps along the way would seem to be to experience being a sorcerer, another perhaps being a seer, and if you're truly unlucky, being a Nagual.
This brings to mind the four enemies don Juan mentioned: fear, power, clarity, and old age. Quite obviously, indulging in being a sorcerer/seer/Nagual equates to the second.
In my opinion, roughly coinciding with Buddhist notions, we are here to experience being here, and we do so many times until we finally get off the wheel of death and rebirth. That would support another notion, that of being able to classify soul levels dependant upon how many times a being has experienced being human, going from infant soul to old soul. In my opinion, the business of spritual evolution really only begins to become relevant when a being reaches the level of "mature soul", at which time, all the primary philosophical questions come into consideration.
The point is, no one is born anything other than another life, another learning, another opportunity to learn and to experience.
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People like Gonzo expect a free ride from the Spirit. Unfortunately, there are no free rides from The Spirit. If I receive good and wonderful knowledge from some shaman I would do all I could to pay for what I received, in one way or another. People like Gonzo don't give anything thus proving they do not deserve to benefit from the great teachings they have received.
It is fair to stated that not charging is the BIG TEST for those who receive great knowledge. If people act like Gonzo and give nothing the Spirit turns against them and they will end up alcoholic cigarette smoking loser clowns just like Gonzo. It's much better to charge than to leave it to the Spirit and end up like the loser Gonzo.
Yes, charging for the knowledge received is an act of mercy
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alien wrote:Nu Lang wrote:
All beings are magical beings. All beings are equal.All beings/things are equal, but not all are magical in how they perceive the world available to them.
You just contradicted yourself. If all beings are equal, then all beings are magical. All I'm trying to do here is bring to your attention that you are creating a false reality rooted in a false belief which seems to be telling you that naguals are somehow "better" than anyone else. I know you will say that isn't what you believe - and I believe you when you say that - but if I just take you at your "words" here, you are projecting something that may be quite different than what you actually Intend.
*Alien--I really have no idea where you think I suggested naguals are better. In fact I have been saying all along that naguals (many of the ones I've encountered), like to charge people for their services and its this that I say is their perceiving they are better and thus can put a price on what they provide. I have been saying that naguals need warriors in equal measure and therefore should be humble and not charge for what they do. This is my opinion and I only wish to express it for those it resonates with and if one does not agree and wants to pay a nagual, that is their business and I'm only putting my view out there for others it will apply to.
When I say not all beings are magical, it just refers to that not all will seek sorcery, the magical worlds. I've already clarified this previously here.
Only those touched by the nagual know magic because they perceive it. Nagual referred to here as not being a person, but 'the nagual'. These magical beings can band together as warrior parties with the purpose of journeying through infinity. Power decides the formation of the party and each warrior belongs to/forms only one party, though parties and members of different lineages can converse and benefit from those exchanges.
Absolutely no offense intended here, but this sounds like a role-playing game and not the actuality of warrior parties. Remember, DJM told Carlos many times that the old lineage was finished. Just as the old seers were finished. I don't think "warrior parties" nowadays bear much resemblance to what was described in CC's books. And, for that matter, why would one need a "party" to journey through infinity? If one achieves the totality of oneself - conjoins with one's double and becomes what I call a "singularity of consciousness" - one is essentially whole throughout time/space and beyond. We could assume from that point that the Whole Being could interact with whoever/whatever it might chooe. Now, I realize we're discussing CC's ideas here, but my point is simply this: don't get so married to someone else's "idea" that you lose sight of your own power and possibility. CC is dead. Sad, but true. We are on our own. Each of us. Yes, we can help one another. But a warrior party? Seems unlikely on the internet.
*Alien--we are our own people, you and I and we could not disagree more on this issue. But since we see it so differently I don't see a reason to comment much further on it except to say what my destiny is is perhaps not yours, I don't know, but I'm not going to try and change your mind about it. I believe warrior parties are not only possible, but necessary, because infinity is cold and lonely in my experience. So if I didn't have a warrior party to go forward with, I'd rather not stay just among my the tonal acquaintances, that would be hell for me...I love the people in my life, but to not be able to talk and experience the Toltec path with them (they are energetically not capable of it), and to not have warriors to do this with either, I would not want to live, and I certainly would not want an afterlife without warriors, I would choose oblivion over journeying out there alone.
For a magical being to see that open path available to them, first they must drop the rationale that makes the world appear so concrete and 'negotiable', is if the mind can make things any way it wants them to be. In truth there is no negotiating, either you follow power or are left behind with ordinary men (those not accessing the nagual). Once one sees this is the only option, they see also that the only source that can guide them from then on is the one that has lead them to this very realization of perception to begin with. And at this time they realize...it was always Spirit, it was never them. There is no them that is magical, Spirit delivered the knock and to answer it they must surrender the ego (mind) to continue this magical journey.
This implies that Spirit singled them out and didn't single others out. Therefore, it further implies that all beings are not equal.
*Things are not as they seem. A warrior needs only link to Spirit, not try to figure out a world that doesn't 'make sense' anyway. When I look at a trash collector on the street here, his job is to pick up trash, and they wear these bright orange jumpsuits so you always spot them a mile away.Well, sometimes they will smile at me and I think to myself, that may not even be a person, that could be an ally. We just don't know what anyone 'is" and even if people are 'real' or if even we are 'real'. Things just are not as concrete as they appear. Everything is One, of this I agree, but within our experience of this life, there will be paths and directions perceived and we have to choose how to apply our attention and energy. I decided a while back to let go of the logic that makes conclusions such as you are doing...such as thinking I'm saying Spirit is singling people out and not others. To me that's not even a consideration. I look at everyone/thing as a mystery...some may not even be 'humans' for example.
When I say not everyone is a magical being, I only mean that sorcerers really only have other sorcerers as companions they can count on here, they are the only ones who speak our language, and yes we also encounter spirits and allies out there. There are also those we encounter that will tax our energy by pulling us into FI attention,concrete ap positions if we allow them to. These are the non magical beings. They test us too. I do not know what their destinies upon their death are going to be, I just know that as they present to me, they are not sorcerers.
These are assessments sorcerers make but they are by no means final, they are merely pragmatic, workable observations clearing the way for energy conservation...a great resource to a sorcerer. The assessment I make abotu magical vs non magical beings informs me on how to apply my energy. One example is I will not try to convert people to the Toltec path, I will let Spirit point things out rather then assume anything about anyone. Once Spirit has indicated something to me, I proceed accordingly.
As I see it, the difference only applies to Toltec understanding and specifically forming a warrior party.
Why? That makes no sense. *shrugs* And while we're at it, how many warrior parties have you formed?
Because, once they have banded together, the warrior party functions as a unit with Intent as their guide. This is not the same as the teacher-student relationships set up in social contexts i.e. piano teacher and piano student, two separate units.
I can see that having other warriors around can be inspirational and motivational, but it is still a solitary journey when all is said and done. We are all "separate units" even when working together. The reason I feel it is crucial to acknowledge this is that for as long as anyone believes they are part of a "group", there can be a tendency to kick back and let "the group" do most of the work... at which point the person gets to the end of the road only to discover that "The Work" was not something that could be done for them, even by the best warrior party in the universe. In all honesty, I've come to believe (and it's only a belief) over the years, that CC's descriuption of the warrior party was probably one of the LEAST believable and least "likely" scenarios in all of his works. It seems more like symbolism than reality - an exporation of the different aspects of the self, a metaphor for finding our own strengths. Are we scouts? Dreamers? Stalkers? Couriers?
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the moment one forms a "committee" one can essentially count on getting nothing done. LOL. I also think that's why CC so often wrote about the fights and disagreements within the warrior party. Put that many people together in ANY circumstance, and they will turn to a roomful of tomcats in battle. Just human nature. And I think that's why one of the major conclusions DJM often stressed was that it really IS a solitary journey.
Just my opinion.
*Alien-I don't think you would want to journey infinity alone. The mention of solitary journey by DJ refers to perception, its an individual affair. But to be physically alone, without others warriors to interact with, that would be excruciatingly unbearable. Once one is aware they are a warrior, they forever seek the company of fellow warriors, because its our only solace here.
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Enchantra wrote:Nu Lang wrote:
For Enchantra, about magical beings, it means not everyone is a magical being because not everyone is a sorcerer. The world through the eyes of a sorcerer is magcial, yes, everything they witness...including others, is magical, yes, but not all beings will become sorcerers.
I see, I didn't get that you were equating magical beings with sorcerers. Synonymous?
And I do agree that not all beings will become Sorcerers, because I think a Sorcerer is born, no?
Yes, I agree, for always I have known Spirit and Magic since the beginning of my recall as a child, as I'm sure was the case for you as well. I did things as a child not knowing how I did them, I had desires as a child some of the other kids never talked about such as to shapeshift. When I was 5 I tried to become a dog, not just pretend to be one, my intent was to really turn into one and then see my family freak out I had actually done it.
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The mention of solitary journey by DJ refers to perception, its an individual affair.For Alien...just so you know specifically what I meant here, the task of bringing the nagual into one's perception, thats the solitary part. We as warrior companions may often share the same/similar perception so I'm not saying perception is not also shared. I'm saying the work of converting perception to the nagual is solitary in effort...even though we so often get help/boosts, the act of intending it into being is up to us individually.
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Nu Lang wrote:
The mention of solitary journey by DJ refers to perception, its an individual affair.For Alien...just so you know specifically what I meant here, the task of bringing the nagual into one's perception, thats the solitary part. We as warrior companions may often share the same/similar perception so I'm not saying perception is not also shared. I'm saying the work of converting perception to the nagual is solitary in effort...even though we so often get help/boosts, the act of intending it into being is up to us individually.
Clearly, you've set up your own belief system, and I'm not going to attempt to dissuade you from it. I just think you may be very surprised about infinity and the solitary journey, but... hey... not important that we agree. I just find some of the things you are saying to be completely unfouded - which was really my only point. I'm not asking you to justify your beliefs - clearly you are good at that - I'm just asking you to ask yourself WHY you believe the things you do. No need to respond to me or here on the forum. It's just a question for your own consideration. The only reason I think this may be worth pursuing is because we had a similar impasse with regard to a discussion on the foreign installation. Like Enchantra said - question EVERYTHING. Question WHY you believe as you do... and I think you'll find that you're dealing with belief and not with knowledge.
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I can respond here Alien. To answer about solitary journey...ask yourself...when have you ever been truly alone? All your life as you know it there were others on your journey with you, why do you think after death it would/should be any different? What is your view of the afterlife? A place where you are SURE there no others warriors around?
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Jessica:
What does "the nagual is nothing"
mean? Can you provide me with an example of the nagual is nothing from
your experience? The reason I ask is because sometimes I do the same
thing that you may be doing here: using syntax philosophically or
theoretically, without having hands on experience. And----I don't
necessarily think that experience is the sina quo non of sorcery---but,
it sure gets one further than the idealistic use of syntax.
Nu Lang,
I'm not sure you responded to the above or not. It's not necessary that you do in any case, however, as I've continued to read through the thread a saying came back to me that a teacher/nagual said to me:
Argue for your limitations, and they're yours.
I spent some time in the car today listening to the audio book, A History of God, by Karen Armstrong. As I was listening I was struck by her changing descriptions/definitions for God and how those descriptions/definitions changed ideologically, philosophically, historically and spiritually over the entire history of mankind. What particularly struck me was how often I could exchange the word "God" for "Nagual" and the sentence still make sense, all the way through to the argument for "God is nothing"! And the synchronicity of this thread and listening to the ideologies of "God" had the hallmark of sorceric timing. The defense of definitions begins to feel very dogmatic to me--- and that's when I bow out.
I also see that we (all of us responding to this thread) may be looking at the Nagual/Tonal from the developmental stage we're currently in. I argued your point of view with righteous indignation five years ago! And because I was sure I was accurate in my seeing, that's exactly what I saw--funny how that works. A sure case of clarity as the enemy.
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Nu Lang wrote:The nagual can never be defined. It can be witnessed but once one talks about it they are defining it, and that definition will never encompass what the nagual is. We know it directly in perception, everyone can access it directly. It is not the tonal but is witnessed through the tonal the same way death is known through life. The tonal can also be experienced without nagual perception, which is the false mind.
From post #37... was my answer to you.
A bit more...
We access the nagual by degrees. The more energy we redeploy by stalking ourselves, moving ap in dreaming, and recap, the more and more we see the nagual which is accessing silent knowledge. I've witnessed the nagual on a visual and audio level on most occasions. What I see and hear is not the nagual itself (because it cannot be measured or defined), but rather the nagual's impact upon the tonal...resulting in visions and messages that convey Intent.
The reason the nagual is nothing is because you cannot contain what it is. Some would say the nagual is then everything. While I understand that, I am pragmatic. I see that when one is primarily situated in the false mind perspective, they are far far from the nagual. Again some would say the false mind is part of the nagual if the nagual is everything. But chanting that mantra..."the nagual is everything" does not address the the problem. And the problem is that until one is completely free of the false mind's influence, the false mind will always cause a twisting of perception that will block to various degrees one's link to the nagual, so I see its best to seperate tonal and nagual, FI and seeing. This gives one the capacity to see what needs to be done (changed) clearly, to fight and act correctly to regain their link with intent, the nagual.
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Nu Lang wrote:I can respond here Alien. To answer about solitary journey...ask yourself...when have you ever been truly alone? All your life as you know it there were others on your journey with you, why do you think after death it would/should be any different? What is your view of the afterlife? A place where you are SURE there no others warriors around?
My posts in this thread seem to be disappearing, but I shall make on more attempt. For you Nu Lang, perhaps it is not the case, but I can understand what alien is saying about being alone.
We are born alone, we die alone. I've spent the majority of my life alone and while there may be a warrior that pops into it from time to time, I know this is my joureny and mine alone to make. So just because there are others with us, right now, does not mean that we are not still completely alone. I don't think there are words to adequately describe this to those who do not feel this way. Either you get the alone thing, or you don't. I know a couple of people who get this, not including alien, and for them, and for me, the realization brings a complete and utter sadness, yet at the same time, it also brings a freedom!
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