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Time or no time...that is the question
#1
Well, its very obvious we believe in time...how could we not...being born here and subject to such things and seconds, minutes, hours, days weeks and months and years. Sheesh, how to escape to the place of no time? Is no time right here and now just as IS time?
Prophetic dreams...I've always had them, and they fascinate me in that they suggest the dream realm is perhaps 'creating' this realm in some way. What do you think?  What are your views on time, what does it mean to you? Why is getting to 'no time' important? Is time a double edged sword that on one hand allows us to stabilize here but on the other hand can imprison us here?
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#2
Well, its very obvious we believe in time...how could we notI don't think I do.  Here's why:
Haven't you ever been in a place where 'time' seemed to speed up, or slow down -- or stand still?   What if there were no clocks to measure?  What about if you go on a journey or soul retrieval, where you travel back to a specific 'time' and place.  If I can go 'back' to something that happened then and witness it right now and change things or do things or watch myself back then ... how can time be real?  How?
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#3
yesyes, I agree. I meant that we are 'conditioned' to believe in time...



And it seems that its our attention that perhaps hold this waking ap realm in place to such a degree? Maybe, perhaps...and also it may be an unknown that can't be known...but there are clues that when we lose our belief in time, things start to happen... thats sorcery.
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#4
Enchantra wrote:
Well, its very obvious we believe in time...how could we notI don't think I do.  Here's why:
Haven't you ever been in a place where 'time' seemed to speed up, or slow down -- or stand still?   What if there were no clocks to measure?  What about if you go on a journey or soul retrieval, where you travel back to a specific 'time' and place.  If I can go 'back' to something that happened then and witness it right now and change things or do things or watch myself back then ... how can time be real?  How?

I think you do. Here's why:
If you experienced time slowing down or speeding up or standing still and took note of it, it was because it did not seem to "fit" what you know about time.
Or if you went "back" in time you are admitting that it is linear but that somehow you experienced something "outside of" this realm where time follows certain laws.
If there were no clocks we could still use sundials or hour glasses etc. The rate of flow is the same. Clocks are a fairly recent invention. We use clocks called chronometers to navigate ships at sea. If the flow of time was not real and constant (or if the clock was not precise) we would get lost going from Europe to America.
On the other hand you are correct in that time is a very illusive thing. I am 57 years old and for the life of me I can't tell you how I got here so fast.
I think when we experience paradoxes concerning time we are dealing with other planes of existence. In the earth plane of matter it appears to be universal. But then so does matter itself and many wise men have called that illusion too.
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#5
Hi Enchantra and Nu Lang,
Just pulling your leg a bit Enchantra. My point is that we all believe in time or we couldn't function.
But we have also heard and experienced things that lead us to believe that the elements of this world are not quite what they seem.
Time is one of those things.
According to the Qabala there are four worlds. Atziloth (Divine World), Briah (Creative World), Yetzirah (Formative World), and Assiah (World of Making). These would be ever denser manifestations of the One who is without beginning or end. God, in a word.
As above, so below. Human beings are also fashoned according to this same pattern.


Isa 43:7
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
I have noticed that the first lines in the book of Genesis seem to begin with the "Creation" or "Creative World." Or the "Second World" of the Qabalah. Also at "the Beginning."


Ge 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.




Ge 1:2
And the earth was without form, ...
If it is "Beginning" then we are speaking of time. The "Beginning" of anything speaks of the concept of Time. Beyond that our minds cannot go. Beyond that there is only God, that/He which has no beginning or end. The Unkowable.
The "Big Bang" theory also has many correlations with the first few lines of Genesis. Most noticeably, to me, is that our minds cannot go past a certain point. I believe that point is the same for both religion and science. Science needs something to study and we are in the realm of No-Thing here. Religion needs something to describe and we have reached the point where that is not possible.
As abstract as it is, the "Beginning" is a "step down" into manifestation from the Indescribeable and Incomprehensible.
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#6
Bob May wrote:I think you do. Here's why:
LOL!  Luckily what you think that I think doesn't change what I know.
Bob May wrote:
My point is that we all believe in time or we couldn't function.I function quite fine. 
Maybe what you meant to say is that we act as if we believe time!  Could it be our controlled folly?
Nu Lang wrote: when we lose our
belief in time, things start to happen... thats sorcery.Yes
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#7
Hi Nu Lang and Enchantra,
I just woke up with another view of time. I've never really looked at it quite like this.
Back to the idea of Allegory.
Time is an allegory. This does not mean that it is not real being that all things here below are allegories that tell us of things above.
Just as there is a point, let's call it the beginning of Time, where our minds cannot go, reason and logic fail. As they are both dependant upon cause and effect. Reason and logic must necessarily use things to compare to other things.
So just as we cannot define a world without Time
So also there is a point we cannot define God. The "Causeless Cause."
Just as we can see the effects of Time; erosion, age, growth, movement of planets, Sun and Moon, etc. We can measure these effects of Time but not really understand what Time is.
So also we can see the "effects of God", or His Creations. We can hold them in our hand, eat them stare at them measure them but not know what they are really, without explaining them in terms of other smaller creations, ie. atoms, molecules, sub atomic particles etc. Science can only explain things in terms of other things.
Now we have discussed the phenomena of Time not acting in "normal" ways in dreams and seeing future or past events, etc. Time as everything else acts differently on different planes. But appropriate to those planes. When we experience those things for the first time they seem very strange indeed. Being somewhere else in an instant. Knowing something you were not taught, etc.
But the same thing applies to Science in the last 50 years with the discovery of sub-atomic particles.
They are bordering on Mind now and it is effecting their experiements. Things are not behaving according to Newton's Laws anymore.
And though our minds cannot define or explain either Timelessness or God, I believe we can experience both.
Because not only is the difference between Time and Timelessness an allegory to teach us about our Source.
Timelessness is one of His/It's attributes. An unexplainable one.


Joh 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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#8
Well we can measure time, even very precisely, and use these measurements in scientific exploration or just simply measure our day etc. The idea of time has become ubiquitous especially in this modern age, its with us all the time lol.
Concerning the first truth about awareness time would be one of those objects that DJ was referring to. If that can be accepted then its reality along with all other objects is questionable. ie; does time exist in and of itself  or is it only noticeable in relation to other manifestation?
Enchantra doubts time’s independent existence because of the variable she experiences lead her to believe it is more a subjective thing.
Bob emphasizes time's existence because without it he could not safely cross the road, he needs it to judge distances and speeds etc.
Nu lang seems more concerned with the “conditioning” that time exacts upon us all and hold out the possibility that this grip of time can be broken and that is when the fun starts.
Well all of these perspectives are not untrue.
I know for myself there came a time (lol) when I had to question time. There is no doubt that time is an essential building block of how we assemble our perceivable worlds. It is such building blocks that need to be examined if we wish to unravel the appearance of objects.
It became very simple for me. No matter how refined our measurements of time are, ie; 24 hours in a day, 60 mins in an hour, 60 seconds in minute, and on and on.....at some point we have to accede that we are not capable of demonstrating that time ever began!
Now let that sink in for a minute (lol).
Now for the clever ones who may wish to isolate an event of any kind (a moment if you will) who might point to an event and say that it began precisely here or then, like say the sound of two hands clapping. Would say the moment the two hands touched with sufficient force a sound was produced and it happened at exactly midnight. It did not happen at 1 sec past midnight or 1 sec before but exactly midnight. Such a calculation is only possible theoretically. We cannot find the beginning of midnight or the end of the unit of time preceding midnight.
We can also apply this same insight to those those building blocks of perceived reality space and matter. The appearance of objects and the matter of which they are made is compounded and can be reduced to finer and finer particles until one eventually reaches space. So not only can we not isolate the beginning of an event in time we cannot in this case of two hands clapping, we cannot isolate the “edge” of either hand as we imagine them to touch!
So not only can we not find the beginning of time or any event that appears to be in time we cannot find the beginning of a single substance of anything. Also if something never began it cannot end. Only things that have a beginning are capable of ending.
Now I used the world simple earlier. I believe theses insights to be simple. However their implications are not they are complex. Most of us will not accede to time having no beginning and so we isolate ourselves from the delicious implications of the insight. Those that are able to to just stop at time having no beginning and cultivate the space of  that insight without rushing to build on what are only assumptions we commonly hold about time will see the universe transform right before their eyes.
"Seeing is to lay bare the core of everything, to witness the unknown and to glimpse into the unknowable. As such, it does not bring one solace. Seers ordinarily go to pieces on finding out that existence is incomprehensibly complex and that normal awareness maligns it with limitations.” DJ, FFW
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#9
Funny how in dreaming feet never touch . I suppose dreams are a carrier of this secret knowledge as it eventually will explain how hard matter never really touches anything but is always floating inside a vacuum of space in its atomic being  according to the laws of quantum physics.  My ass right now is not really quantumly sitting at this chair nor are my fingers typing.
lol. only in nagual time.
The tonal time says.Time is money. Time is energy. Time heals a wound. Time to get it right. Time is aging.
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#10
I meant to add...Funny how in dreaming feet never touch the ground.
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#11
Bob May wrote:Things are not behaving according to Newton's Laws anymore.
Possibly because Newton's law was never actually a 'law' -- it's just a theory. I suppose it all depends on hard hard we try to fit something into a box.
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#12
"Nu lang seems more concerned with the “conditioning” that time exacts upon us all and hold out the possibility that this grip of time can be broken and that is when the fun starts."



Yes...and I agree with Enchantra and Bob though they differ in what they highlight, I see they both understand the same thing...and you and Ninth too, all of us in this thread understand about time and eternity which is outside of time. That means we are all sorcerers Only sorcerers could grasp this. Granted our views each will fill in the missing puzzle pieces for each other...such as I like how Bob pointed out that other realms operate on a different time rather then 'no time'. The no time is ever present allowing for such adaptability...like our discussion so long ago on how emptiness allows for eternal adaptation of form.



The way I see it, we take what we understand about time and run with it...so you are very correct in your assessment of my view on time's relevance.



When I first joined Ravensfield...our first group dreaming together was Lone Wolf discussing about time...I did not recall what was said, but thats the funny thing about dreaming...there's transmission of knowledge even when you cannot consciously remember it.



This is why some are weary of dreaming...because of all the things that can be done in dreaming unknown to the dreamer...but I say, its already being done to the sleepers so its better to improve dreaming rather than run away from whats happening no matter what. And by this I am not referring to what naguals do in dreaming, but all those other people out there...some into dark sorcery. Its easy for them to manipulate the realms when they have a certain degree of ability to navigate time dimensions.



But I think our guides (or Spirit) help us when we are not able to so there is a sort of protection from dark sorcery until we get stronger.
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#13
I wish to complain that Enchanta's pic is a bit norty and I cannot concentrate on a quick reply
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#14
Enchantra wrote:

Bob May wrote:
Things are not behaving according to Newton's Laws anymore.
Possibly because Newton's law was never actually a 'law' -- it's just a theory. I suppose it all depends on hard hard we try to fit something into a box. 

Lex wrote:
"Bob emphasizes time's existence because without it he could not safely cross the road, he needs it to judge distances and speeds etc."
Don't misunderstand my intent.
I was playing devil's advocate to Enchantra's comment that she did not believe in time. I was pointing out that we cannot function on this plane without a belief in it. Her statement is unbelievable.
And Newton's Laws are both measureable and repeatable. Not theory.
They just don't apply outside of the box.
That is part of the sobriety in my opinion. Putting things in their proper perspective. And then moving outside of the box.
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#15
chlorella wrote:
I wish to complain that Enchanta's pic is a bit norty and I cannot concentrate on a quick replyWhat's Norty?
I like Enchantress 1 better.
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#16
I think both you and Enchantra agree on the issue of time though...in a roundabout way...she called it practicing 'controlled folly', you call it more like a necessity of functioning in various planes in an organized manner, but see there is a 'beyond' that governs things.
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#17
Norty? Concentration is not needed for a quick reply but is needed for indepth reply. I see no fault in Enchantra's icon.
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#18
hehe think he was joking with his complaint sex sells! (question is what is she selling and why?)
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#19
chlorella wrote:I wish to complain that Enchanta's pic is a bit norty and I cannot concentrate on a quick reply
LOL  Try closing your eyes!
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#20
Turin Otzaki wrote:hehe think he was joking with his complaint sex sells! (question is what is she selling and why?)
Not selling anything, it aint a naked pic of myself!  Just a cool pic of a Sorceress I found on the net.  But yes, I agree chlorella was just playin wif me.
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#21
Bob May wrote:
Don't misunderstand my intent.
I was playing devil's advocate to Enchantra's comment that she did not believe in time. I was pointing out that we cannot function on this plane without a belief in it. Her statement is unbelievable.
And Newton's Laws are both measureable and repeatable. Not theory.
They just don't apply outside of the box.
That is part of the sobriety in my opinion. Putting things in their proper perspective. And then moving outside of the box.
In your opinion....
If you do not believe, then I am not here to convince you.  Time is irrelevant in Sorcery.
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#22
Found something cool:
No one keeps track of time better than Ferenc Krausz. In his lab at
the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics in Garching, Germany, he has
clocked the shortest time intervals
ever observed. Krausz uses ultraviolet laser pulses to track the
absurdly brief quantum leaps of electrons within atoms. The events he
probes last for about 100 attoseconds, or 100 quintillionths of a
second. For a little perspective, 100 attoseconds is to one second as a
second is to 300 million years.

But even Krausz works far from the frontier of time. There is a temporal realm called the Planck scale,
where even attoseconds drag by like eons. It marks the edge of known
physics, a region where distances and intervals are so short that the
very concepts of time and space start to break down. Planck time—the
smallest unit of time that has any physical meaning—is 10-43 second, less than a trillionth of a trillionth of an attosecond. Beyond that? Tempus incognito. At least for now.

Efforts to understand time below the Planck scale have led to an
exceedingly strange juncture in physics. The problem, in brief, is that
time may not exist at the most fundamental level of physical reality. If
so, then what is time? And why is it so obviously and tyrannically
omnipresent in our own experience? “The meaning of time has become
terribly problematic in contemporary physics,” says Simon Saunders, a
philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford. “The situation is so
uncomfortable that by far the best thing to do is declare oneself an
agnostic.”
The trouble with time started a century ago, when Einstein’s special and general theories of relativity demolished the idea of time as a universal constant.
One consequence is that the past, present, and future are not
absolutes. Einstein’s theories also opened a rift in physics because the
rules of general relativity (which describe gravity and the large-scale
structure of the cosmos) seem incompatible with those of quantum
physics (which govern the realm of the tiny). Some four decades ago, the
renowned physicist John Wheeler, then at Princeton, and the late Bryce
DeWitt, then at the University of North Carolina, developed an
extraordinary equation that provides a possible framework for unifying
relativity and quantum mechanics. But the Wheeler-­DeWitt equation has always been controversial, in part because it adds yet another, even more baffling twist to our understanding of time.


“One finds that time just disappears from the Wheeler-DeWitt
equation,” says Carlo Rovelli, a physicist at the University of the
Mediterranean in Marseille, France. “It is an issue that many theorists
have puzzled about. It may be that the best way to think about quantum
reality is to give up the notion of time—that the fundamental
description of the universe must be timeless.”


No one has yet succeeded in using the Wheeler-DeWitt equation to
integrate quantum theory with general relativity. Nevertheless, a
sizable minority of physicists, Rovelli included, believe that any
successful merger of the two great masterpieces of 20th-century physics
will inevitably describe a universe in which, ultimately, there is no
time.


The possibility that time may not exist is known among physicists as
the “problem of time.” It may be the biggest, but it is far from the
only temporal conundrum. Vying for second place is this strange fact:
The laws of physics don’t explain why time always points to the future.
All the laws—whether Newton’s, Einstein’s, or the quirky quantum
rules—would work equally well if time ran backward. As far as we can
tell, though, time is a one-way process; it never reverses, even though
no laws restrict it.

“It’s quite mysterious why we have such an obvious arrow of time,”
says Seth Lloyd, a quantum mechanical engineer at MIT. (When I ask him
what time it is, he answers, “Beats me. Are we done?”) “The usual
explanation of this is that in order to specify what happens to a
system, you not only have to specify the physical laws, but you have to
specify some initial or final condition.”

The mother of all initial conditions, Lloyd says, was the Big Bang.
Physicists believe that the universe started as a very simple, extremely
compact ball of energy. Although the laws of physics themselves don’t
provide for an arrow of time, the ongoing expansion of the universe
does. As the universe expands, it becomes ever more complex and
disorderly. The growing disorder—physicists call it an increase in
entropy—is driven by the expansion of the universe, which may be the
origin of what we think of as the ceaseless forward march of time.
Time, in this view, is not something that exists apart from the
universe. There is no clock ticking outside the cosmos. Most of us tend
to think of time the way Newton did: “Absolute, true and mathematical
time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably, without regard
to anything external.” But as Einstein proved, time is part of the
fabric of the universe. Contrary to what Newton believed, our ordinary
clocks don’t measure something that’s independent of the universe. In
fact, says Lloyd, clocks don’t really measure time at all.

“I recently went to the National Institute of Standards and
Technology in Boulder,” says Lloyd. (NIST is the government lab that
houses the atomic clock
that standardizes time for the nation.) “I said something like, ‘Your
clocks measure time very accurately.’ They told me, ‘Our clocks do not
measure time.’ I thought, Wow, that’s very humble of these guys. But
they said, ‘No, time is defined to be what our clocks measure.’ Which is
true. They define the time standards for the globe: Time is defined by
the number of clicks of their clocks.”

Rovelli, the advocate of a timeless universe, says the NIST
timekeepers have it right. Moreover, their point of view is consistent
with the Wheeler-DeWitt equation. “We never really see time,” he says.
“We see only clocks. If you say this object moves, what you really mean
is that this object is here when the hand of your clock is here, and so
on. We say we measure time with clocks, but we see only the hands of the
clocks, not time itself. And the hands of a clock are a physical
variable like any other. So in a sense we cheat because what we really
observe are physical variables as a function of other physical
variables, but we represent that as if everything is evolving in time.
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time
Stated better than I ever could!
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#23
please excuse my previous foolishness ;-)

good to see you again Enchantra !



this thread is very interesting...thanks...it brings to me ruminations and feeling of what 'memory' is...it's function, purpose...what it is...
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#24
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Norty? Concentration is not needed for a quick reply but is needed for indepth reply. I see no fault in Enchantra's icon.Turin Otzaki wrote:hehe think he was joking with his complaint sex sells! (question is what is she selling and why?)
Enchantra wrote:chlorella wrote:I wish to complain that Enchanta's pic is a bit norty and I cannot concentrate on a quick reply
LOL  Try closing your eyes! Enchantra wrote:Turin Otzaki wrote:hehe think he was joking with his complaint sex sells! (question is what is she selling and why?)
Not
selling anything, it aint a naked pic of myself!  Just a cool pic of a
Sorceress I found on the net.  But yes, I agree chlorella was just
playin wif me.  Actually, I sensed in the very beginning Chlor was just causing a diversion and distraction. His post seemed immature and serving no valuable purpose. I often joke, but in this case here I felt it was to get everyone off topic...just being honest.
Yes, sex can be a draw of attention to futility, the fi can be the influence. Sex can also be great and magical without the fi. Making a comment such as Chlor made is an indication of fi, sorry chlor. But seems you  'were had'.
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#25
chlorella wrote:please excuse my previous foolishness ;-)

good to see you again Enchantra !



this thread is very interesting...thanks...it brings to me ruminations and feeling of what 'memory' is...it's function, purpose...what it is...Yes, I certainly excuse it...just so you know...my above post was made before I saw your most recent response...I'll leave it as food for thought. But yes, Chlor, always we just move forward, no guilting, just awareness.
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