Nagual Church

[Turin Otzaki]

"the tyranny of the charismatic"



great line and great post Seren, good to see you back! we missed ya

[alien]

Maybe we need to evolve beyond the words.  Not that I'm in favor of organized anything, which is always and only a consensus, but on the other hand I can see where a learning center for nagualism could be of benefit to a lot of people, but probably only if they were already fairly educated in the Toltec principles prior to joining any such organisation.
How would the idea differ if it were presented as a toltec-based learning center instead of a church of nagualism?  Obviously Carlos didn't (couldn't) present everything there is to know even in the scope of all his books. And when all is said and done Carlos's journey was Carlos's journey - no other warrior can achieve freedom simply by following what Carlos did, but only by adapting the principles of nagualism to their own individual lives. Face it, what would YOU have to gain by going out in the desert and sewing shut the eyelids of a couple of lizards? If Carlos did it for his own reasons based on the presumably impeccable instructions of his mentor, that's one thing.  If you do it, it's only a ritualistic following of someone else's path, devoid of any real significance.
One of the primary goals of nagualism is to teach the warrior to think and act for himself, based on his own knowledge and not on what he has read in a book.  It's about learning to work with the principles and the concepts rather than blindly following ritual (and religion is nothing but ritual, adherence to dogma and belief, having nothing to do with experiential knowledge).
What am I saying about a potential church of nagualism?  Just this: if it were constructed as a learning center to advance the principles of nagualism, it could be a profoundly beneficial thing.  If it were only a place to talk about the teachings of Carlos Castaneda, then it will inevitably become just another hokey religion attached to some books (like most other religions). 
The art of zen isn't following zen, but living zen.  The art of nagualism isn't following Castaneda, but taking the knowledge he left behind one step further, in our own lives.

[serendipity]

Good post, alien,

so, if someone were to start such a learning centre, how would it avoid all the usual pitfalls of human behaviour?



The only advantages I can think of, in calling it a church, would be, grudging acceptance by mainstream society, (in the manner of "The Spiritualist Church", who only sing a few hymns to maintain the facade,), and, that it would allow the use of entheogens to be labelled as a sacrament, and hence, permitted.



If I were involved in any naming, I would prefer to call such a learning centre, something along the lines of,......"Centre for the Exploration of Awareness."

It is,nt snappy, but it is, to the point, and does,nt give the impression that it is only for those who are into "nagualism".



Where would the "priests" for such a church, come from? Central American populations who still practice various aspects of nagaulism?

How would the surviving NA practitioners view the "aliens" starting such a church? ( bearing in mind that, many surviving forms of nagualism are unlike DJ's path, and more like religions, themselves,).

[Spud]

Formation of a church would mean by default a hierarchy which means someone has to be better or more holy than everyone else. The one thing i have learned from the wise ones around here is that the sorcerers of true power are humble in nature. I dont see anyone including me qualified enough to be considered more holy than the rest.... however i think dream weaver is looking to establsh a means of communicating some fundamental guidelines that people newly awakened sorely need. By establishing the name church will get mainstram acceptance and may gain a larger following.



I feel this could be achieved, but i would be amenable to a collective dreaming, a group where we influence events, or help those that need it by working as collective or cooperative. ( i know i am still hanging onto my neo pagan beliefs a little here) For example i see much injustice and evil in this world that would benefit from the attntion of aware people.



This reactions of people to this thread are fascinating, and attractive to someone new to this area of exploration like me, but thinking about it i am not sure the church would benefit from the strgths of the nagual way.



What could prob me more productive would be to find regional coordinators to organise meets #(moots to be wiccanish) where like minded people could camp out, exchange idea, learn from each other and find inspiration. By establishing common goals and apsirations, then the links can be forged, strgthened and differences can be acknowledged, enjoyed and worked with.

[alien]

serendipity wrote:
Good post, alien,
so, if someone were to start such a learning centre, how would it avoid all the usual pitfalls of human behaviour?
The only advantages I can think of, in calling it a church, would be, grudging acceptance by mainstream society, (in the manner of "The Spiritualist Church", who only sing a few hymns to maintain the facade,), and, that it would allow the use of entheogens to be labelled as a sacrament, and hence, permitted.
If I were involved in any naming, I would prefer to call such a learning centre, something along the lines of,......"Centre for the Exploration of Awareness."
It is,nt snappy, but it is, to the point, and does,nt give the impression that it is only for those who are into "nagualism".
Where would the "priests" for such a church, come from? Central American populations who still practice various aspects of nagaulism?
How would the surviving NA practitioners view the "aliens" starting such a church? ( bearing in mind that, many surviving forms of nagualism are unlike DJ's path, and more like religions, themselves,).
I don't think it's possible to avoid the usual pitfalls of human behaviour, but a learning center rooted in nagualism would hopefully teach folk that very thing. So there would be the typical **** one encounters in any structural organisation (church, school, work place, service organisation) but the overall goal would (hopefully) be to expand one's awareness to such an extent that one would be aware of those very pitfalls and avoid them - in other words, Stalking 101. If people were serious about their reasons for joining such an organisation, they would obviously be aware of their own **** and leave it at the door, so to speak.  That's in an ideal world, of course, but in general I think people are capable of releasing their petty human dramas for the sake of pursuing a path toward freedom - the question is whether they will, or whether egos and false pride (byproducts of the foreign installation) will keep them at the lowest level of their humanform behaviours.  Personally?  I think that path will almost always be individual and solo for obvious reasons.  After all, the only person we really get along with is usually our Self.  Haha.
You asked where the 'priests' would come from? Right here.  All around us.  Within us. Its not a matter of anybody being more holy than anybody else, but it might be a matter of some people having more knowledge/experience in certain areas. For whatever reason, 'teacher' has become a dirty word in a lot of nagualist circles and that's unfortunate because no man is an island and there's no shame in admitting to yourself that somebody else might know more than you do in certain areas. There are people here who are better dreamers than me, but I have to decide whether I want to learn from them or let my ego/pride dismiss them because they might threaten me.  By the same token, there are things I can offer about stalking, for example, but people have to decide if they want to learn or if their ego/pride won't allow it because it threatens what they think they already know.  That's what self-stalking is all about - getting past the mental blocks (belief systems & programs, if you perfer) that trap us in our own stagnation out of fear/ego/pride.
And I do agree with you that many forms of nagualism as it's practiced today are nothing more than religions, or even anti-religions (which is just another religion when you think about it).  As to how others might view starting such a center/church, nagualism doesn't belong to any group or single culture.  At its core, it's not a series of beliefs, but a series of practices that can be proven and experienced by anyone with sufficient diligence.  That's why I think a learning center could be of great value, but like anything else people would get out of it what they bring into it - which is why most religions are primarily comprised of followers instead of do-ers.  The principles of nagualism are universal, at least that's how I've come to see it.

[rasselon]

So, what would a nagual church whose intention is to reach the average person have to tell them?

[alien]

rasselon wrote:
So, what would a nagual church whose intention is to reach the average person have to tell them?Not that I'm advocating a church but yours is an interesting question. I'm not sure a nagualism organisation (whether it's a church or school or learning center) would be able to target 'the average person', at least not here in the West where too many people already think they know everything. Haha.  But assuming it could be targeted toward folks who already have an interest in spiritual evolution and personal development, what the organisation might have to give them would be techniques for dreaming or stalking, making them aware of what the foreign installation really is, increasing their awareness, teaching how to see, how to be outside the box, stopping the internal dialog, activating the double, all the traditional aspects of sorcery.
It wouldn't be up to the organisation to define a goal, although anybody who would choose to pursue the teachings would probably have their own agenda and goals already in place.  It would have to be about enhancing individuals rather than churning out believers or followers, but that's probably why it works better on paper than in reality.  While we can learn from books or organisations, the reality of spiritual evolution is entirely individual and best facilitated in a one-on-one interaction between student/teacher. Or if folks don't like those labels, apply your own.  Not all teachers are don Juan. Not all students are Carlos. But somewhere in that kind of paradigm, a lot of learning becomes possible for both parties.

[alien]

Can't find an edit button but wanted to add one thing.  When I said the reality of spiritual evolution is best facilitated in a one-on-one interaction between student/teacher, I would add that often the best teacher we have is our own higher self (or double, or the self outside the box), but that can be tricky at first because there can be a tendency for the ego to mistake the internal dialog for the higher self.  So I'm all for self-facilitated evolution but will also concede that in the early phases of the journey a mentor of some type may be desirable as a tool for learning to distinguish between the voice of the double and the voice of the foreign installation masquerading as the higher self.

[Turin Otzaki]

Great stuff Alien, and I agree with all your points above, and thats a great point re the ego and higher self....it is hard to distinguish the two, and the ego will hijack anything it can that puffs itself up. The art of telling the difference!!! I often use the body sensations as a guide to find out what is coming from where.



I tend to keep my own counsel and at the same time am always on the look out for others who can stalk me (both fiercely and lovingly hehe) and be reference points for me....in case I trick myself. There is a limit to self stalking.

[alien]

Turin Otzaki wrote:
Great stuff Alien, and I agree with all your points above, and thats a great point re the ego and higher self....it is hard to distinguish the two, and the ego will hijack anything it can that puffs itself up. The art of telling the difference!!! I often use the body sensations as a guide to find out what is coming from where.
I tend to keep my own counsel and at the same time am always on the look out for others who can stalk me (both fiercely and lovingly hehe) and be reference points for me....in case I trick myself. There is a limit to self stalking.Hi, Turin.  Nice t' meet ya!  Just wanted to say that I also use body sensations to tell the difference between the ego or the false installation, and the voice of the higher self.  Generally, if I "hear" something, it's probably the FI or the ego.  If something comes to me as a fully-fleshed concept, it's usually from the Other.  Silent knowing really does seem to involve conceptual perception whereas the FI tries to talk us into stuff.  Hahha.

[Turin Otzaki]

yes alien!!! too right. I often wonder if those body sensations relate to the centres/chakras, what do you think? I dont know that much about them, but I have some sensations of them, feel how they are effected by music, nature, discordancy, crappy emotions, vibrations...... I have thought that these centres are like the inner moderators or hidden controls of the ship we are flying (or something)
I gotto go out for a bit right now, but will be on chat later if you feel like dropping in - would be great to chat about it some more...

[alien]

Turin Otzaki wrote:
yes alien!!! too right. I often wonder if those body sensations relate to the centres/chakras, what do you think? I dont know that much about them, but I have some sensations of them, feel how they are effected by music, nature, discordancy, crappy emotions, vibrations...... I have thought that these centres are like the inner moderators or hidden controls of the ship we are flying (or something)
I gotto go out for a bit right now, but will be on chat later if you feel like dropping in - would be great to chat about it some more...

I don't know a lot about chakras, but I do think our body-sensations can act like built-in bullshit detectors.  Hahha.  I'm lucky in that I *see* the FI for what it is, but that doesn't stop it from trying to edge its way back in from time to time. Usually happens in the form of doubting something I know to be true (from a sorceric or shamanic perspective), but the voice of of the FI will try to stir up doubt.  If I'm not paying close attention, there's always a chance it can get a hook back in, because that's what the FI does.  When I am paying attention, there is a feeling associated with it that has the same effect as making your lip curl - like when an animal shows you his fangs.  I've learned to pay attention to that body sensation, as it's a sure-fire validation that the FI is lurking.
Thanks for the invite to chat. If I'm around later, I might drop in.  If not, I'll catch you later!

[Guest]