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Hi Dreamways,
"But with nagualism, you aren't really calling upon God at all."
Then your idea of Nagual is too small.
We live in a sea of awareness. Pure being that we can become "one with."
The unknown is hidden from us. We can experience it if we are fortunate or work at it but then, we find there is still an unknowable beyond that which we have
experienced.
This is why I copied and pasted what I did.
There is a pattern to the Unknown. Functions and operations. Modes of operations, functions and awarenesses.
In a nutshell, this is the Tree of Life. Beyond that Tree is the Unknowable, the Ain Soph Aur (limitless light.)
What I pasted was just a small excerp of a commentary on the first two Sephira only. The entire system called sorcery would not go beyond the 7th, and 9th
Sephirah on the Tree. We occupy the 10th or realm of physical matter.
Don Juan did not consider himself a sorcerer. I believe he went far beyond that. How far I don't know.
Carlos got caught up in that world. Don Juan warned him not to.
Introducing Carlos to the sorcerers world was meant to show him there was something beyond normal awareness.
What he was supposed to do from that starting point was to realize that the world of ordinary men and the world of sorcerers were equally illusory.
His advise was to Carlos was to "slip between the two" and become a "man of knowledge."
Both his life and writings lead me to believe he never accomplished or even understood that.
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"The energy necessary to move the assemblage points of sorcerers comes from the realm of inorganic beings. This is the truth and the legacy of the old
sorcerers to us."
"The inorganic beings have us pinned down to this day. This is the reason I don't like them. I resent having to dip into one source alone. Personally,
I refuse to do it. And I am trying to steer you away from it."
"The reason sorcerers have to take energy from the realm of inorganic beings is because there is no other viable energy for sorcerers."
"All the sorcerers of our line have to do this."
All of these statements are Carlos' relating Don Juan's advise to Carlos after he began dealing with inorganics against the recommendations of Don
Juan.
And more importantly, all of these statements are referring specifically to a SORCERER'S limitations. Don Juan said that he REFUSED to do that.
The answer is simple. Carlos should not have practiced sorcery in the first place. Or he could have used the practices to stop the world and after that he
could have stopped any time he chose to.
If his system of knowledge required him to need inorganics to supply him energy, all he had to do was change his system of knowledge.
I lived the first four books of Casaneda and followed Don Juan's teachings to their inevitable end. Especially the recommendations contained in Journey to
Ixtlan. I stopped the world even before his fifth book was published.
So, I know it works. And according to Don Juan's definition I am a sorcerer because of having experienced that. But I took to heart Don Juan's warning
of not becoming enmeshed in the "sorcerer's world." What do I need with more illusion?
I have had enough of that.
From there I looked into other things.
Grandspeculator is correct. There are deeper systems of knowledge and greater sources of power than what Carlos was caught up in.
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According to CC we are half organic half inorganic. Thanks to the conditions we are rised in, the inorganic part - the energy body is in a very bad almost
cripled state, because we never allowed to develop it into full potential. in fact, most people never heard of it. and we keep it that way until it evenualy
kills us. now that's the terror of the situation. Sorceres provided us with a solution, that is to visit the inorganic realm and take the energy from there
that is required for the inorganic part. they also warned us about potential dangers. you're half inorganic and right now some inorganic flyer is sucking
your energy away. What am I supposed to do according to those "deeper systems of knowledge" ?
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grandspeculator wrote:
Don Juan was rather uncomfortable with a lot of things of the nagual path yet he didn't knew any other path so he took it all the way.
Exactly. But what a strange scenario in the world of spiritual paths. Unique as far as I can tell. An apologetic master teaching his apprentice what he
isn't comfortable with, you don't run into that everyday.
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Bob May wrote:
"But with nagualism, you aren't really calling upon God at all."
Then your idea of Nagual is too small. We live in a sea of awareness. Pure being that we can become "one with."
I'm just making an observation that nagualism, as taught by Castaneda, is Godless.
Grandspeculator is correct. There are deeper systems of knowledge and greater sources of power than what Carlos was caught up in.
I feel that there is alot of "sensitve" information that Castaneda left out of his dialogs with Don Juan. Maybe it's my undoing,
but I want to examine the scene of the old sorcerers "crime" before I take sides on the issue.
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Bob May wrote:
I lived the first four books of Casaneda and followed Don Juan's teachings to their inevitable end.
Whereas, I'm trying to follow the rest of the books to their inevitable end.
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seeitall wrote:
Sorceres provided us with a solution, that is to visit the inorganic realm and take the energy from there that is required for the inorganic part.
It could very well be just as simple as that.
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Bob May wrote:
His advise was to Carlos was to "slip between the two" and become a "man of knowledge." Both his life and writings lead me to believe he
never accomplished or even understood that.
Like I've said before, since Carlos was the one writing about himself, and also playing the part of what he wrote about, I don't think that you can
really trust anything he wrote or did, good or bad, to be anything but his own propaganda. I mean, he is the last person on earth that I would take at face
value.
From what I've seen, he had a very specific agenda that only pertained to him. He warned everybody that he was unable to lead a sorcerer's party as a
nagual, but that was not to say that he didn't have a plan for himself.
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Bob May wrote:
His advise was to Carlos was to "slip between the two" and become a "man of knowledge."
Both his life and writings lead me to believe he never accomplished or even understood that.
Sorry for banging on this quote twice like this, but I think what you said is important. Yes, regardless of the smoke screen that Castaneda threw up, I
agree that he did not do what Don Juan would have hoped he would. Carlos pointed out during his lectures that he was not going to "burn with the fire
from within" like Don Juan had set up for him. I'm not saying that my seeing is the last word on anything, but all I know is that, when Carlos died,
I saw him merge with the death defier and take off without anyone else.
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"According to CC we are half organic half inorganic. Thanks to the conditions we are raised in, the inorganic part - the energy body is in a very bad
almost cripled state, because we never allowed to develop it into full potential."
Maybe you could get adopted by an australian aboriginal shaman. I bet they would do a better job of raising you. Ha Ha.
According to the Qabala we are a "microcosm". An exact replica of the universe or "macrocosm. All that it contains, we contain and can access
the various modes we wish to make use of.
"..the energy body is in a very bad almost cripled state, because we never allowed to develop it into full potential. in fact, most people never heard of
it. and we keep it that way until it evenualy kills us. now that's the terror of the situation."
"What am I supposed to do according to those "deeper systems of knowledge" ?"
The energy body is not unheard of in the Qabala, Budhism, Theosophy etc. If you go to the link above and read the chapters on Hod and Netzach you would at
least have a better more broad idea of the Realms of magic whether Western ceremonial type or the more Natural approach that is practiced by shaman around the
world.
All energy comes from one source and only changes as it comes down the Tree or into manifestation. Read what I pasted carefully. Then choose your Sphere of
operation.
You have chosen the sphere of Netzach without even knowing it just by practicing sorcery. If that is still your choice after learning a bit about that sphere
then you know where to go to get more energy.
If you do not want to "share" energy then you should do a "protection" of some kind before engaging in any magical or meditative practice.
I do the Qabala Cross. There are others depending upon your beliefs and sources of power.
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dreamways wrote:
Bob May wrote:
I lived the first four books of Casaneda and followed Don Juan's teachings to their inevitable end.
Whereas, I'm trying to follow the rest of the books to their inevitable end.
But which end?
Carlos failed to unmanifest.
If Don Juan did unmanifest bodily then someone left out something somewhere because the "source of power" or realm of operation needed for that act
was way beyond what Don Juan was teaching Carlos.
On the other hand you asked why a teacher would teach a student about sorcery when he did not agree with it.
I believe Carlos was up to his neck in **** and Don Juan needed to at least help him "tread water"even if he could not pull him out.
"I feel that there is alot of "sensitve" information that Castaneda left out of his dialogs with Don Juan. Maybe it's my undoing, but I want
to examine the scene of the old sorcerers "crime" before I take sides on the issue."
Going "slumming", Eh? Be sure of your protection beforehand would be my advice.
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Bob May wrote:
dreamways wrote:
Bob May wrote:
I lived the first four books of Casaneda and followed Don Juan's teachings to their inevitable end.
Whereas, I'm trying to follow the rest of the books to their inevitable end.
But which end?
The sorceric end that I can see, the one that I saw Castaneda do with his own energy. Until I can see the energy of a different way, I will just have to
go with the one that I know.
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A few years back I was obsessed with finding a scout (inorganic being) and voice my intent to visit there world.
I worked third shift at the time and while I was in bed I was cuddling with my yellow lab dog and he was starting to dream because because kept waking me up
because his body was jerking from his dreams and was interrupting my sleep but I managed to dream a dream that I knew that was what I was waiting for because
the I.B. in my dream was different with its energy configuration and I isolated it and got close to it and voiced my intent on visiting its world and instantly
I was sucked into a tunnel that spiraled and saw such different scenes that are really hard to describe and I went into other states of awareness that are hard
also to describe into detail because its hard to find words to describe the revealings of that world and when I woke up from the dream I was in a fetal
position with my dog as if we were one.
Days and weeks after that I had to resist the temptation to use the energy from the I.B. because I knew that I could use its energy for anything and I mean
anything because after visiting its world it was enticing me to go back and when I was confronted with conflict in normal waking world it was known or I had
the choice to have it take care of me and this what it wanted to do and felt that it wanted to cater to any of my needs but I did not give in because I knew
that if I did I would be a prisoner of that world and if a seer was to look at my luminous body the energetic appearance would be distorted because it would
reflect part of there energy configuration because your energy would merge with there's according to Don Juan and from my own seeing I can see what he was
talking about because I can see energy while I'm in heightened awareness.
I know by first hand experience the lure of exchanging energy with I.B.'s because they benefit just as much if not more than you from the energy merging.
My friend Brian that I wrote about was why I really chosen not to do such an act because I saw what it did to him.
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I feel that there is alot of "sensitve" information that Castaneda left out of his dialogs with Don Juan. Maybe it's my undoing, but I want to
examine the scene of the old sorcerers "crime" before I take sides on the issue.
The Sorcerers of antiquity "crime" wasn't their addiction to the inorganics realm. That was just a symptom of a greater sickness.
They were negative sorcerers or black magicians. They used their knowledge for manipulation and harming others. Remember the visit of Carlos to the "Death
Defiers" (the buried-alive sorcerers of antiquity)?? The nice old sorcerers tried to grab Carlos and kill him for his energy.
They were morbid and indulgent. They didn't want freedom, they wanted power over others. The inorganics provide it and they used it for their purposes.
Castaneda was somewhat like that and he almost pay the ultimate price of dealing with inorganics... being destroyed and trapped in that realm for good.
Don Juan and his party saved him from a fate worst than death: An "eternity" of entrapment... and, if what I read is true, the slow dissolution of
his causal body (involution).
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Forgive me also for beating a point to death,
"Whereas, I'm trying to follow the rest of the books to their inevitable end."
But which end?
I see it as a matter of following Carlos or Don Juan.
"The sorceric end that I can see, the one that I saw Castaneda do with his own energy. Until I can see the energy of a different way, I will just have to
go with the one that I know."
And yet, you got to the point of "seeing" what you have without the ability to see at all.
In other words, you took the teachings of Don Juan on faith. That brought you to the ability to "see".
I have done the same thing to whatever level I have experienced things.
But I do not have the same faith in the later books, (though there are some valuable truths contained there) due to the fact that Carlos got off the path. That
is by his own admission.
I used the teachings of Don Juan to get me to a point of opening doors to the unknown.
Don Juan died and I looked elsewhere for what I think he was about. I found and experienced more.
I think Carlos got caught in the first room beyond the doorway.
It's all very difficult to ascertain being that we have to take Carlos' word on everything.
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Bob May wrote:
It's all very difficult to ascertain being that we have to take Carlos' word on everything.
Yes, since Castaneda created both sides of the argument, and all the terminology, choosing either side only serves to make you dependent on his views.
Finding out the truth for yourself is not impossible.
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I feel fortunate to have the freedom to interpret the world of energy because when you shift your assemblage point outside of normal awareness you do not have
to read a book or have a teacher because you know where you are at and how to deal with the arena of energy and when I'm in this state I feel that I
don't have to have a teacher like what Bob May refers to because the way I look at it you should be the teacher of your self and when you reach a point of
your attention it is up to you on what you should do.
I will be alone or by myself and know what to do with my intent.
At this point I feel then you are a true warrior.
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ARNWAY wrote:
I'm in this state I feel that I don't have to have a teacher like what Bob May refers to because the way I look at it you should be the teacher of
your self and when you reach a point of your attention it is up to you on what you should do.
I'd have to agree with you Arnway, there is a point where, you "learn how to learn", you don't need a teacher anymore to show you how to
learn, and that pretty much goes for any endeavor. Understanding how to learn on your own is called power. Every single step along the path of life is
difficult but rewarding in its own way. Here's how I tend to outline it:
1. Apprentice-Fear, 2. Warrior-Clarity, 3. Sorcerer-Power, 4. Seer-Wisdom, 5. Shaman or Nagual-Transcendence.
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I don't agree that you don't need a teacher once you "learn how to learn". For sorcerers that might be... but for seekers of freedom of the
spirit that kind of pseudo-independence is a self-important trap. If you don't have the right knowledge and guidance you will loose precious time trying to
figure out the way for yourself.
Don't forget folks: The sorcerers of antiquity learned the ways after generations, hundreds, thousands of years of trial and error! We, at this point of
history, don't have the time nor the disposition (the Death Defier was right about that) to do that. Life is to short.
A true teacher/guru/benefactor can take you all the way to freedom. If you don't care about freedom and want to play nagual that's another history.
Can you imagine Carlos Castaneda trying to learn nagualism without the direct guidance of Don Juan?
It's up to power anyway. Very few will find a true teacher... fewer will follow it.
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Hi Dreamways and Aranno,
"Finding out the truth for yourself is not impossible."
"When a student is ready, a teacher will appear."
This is an old saying in Western Occult Tradition. I found this to be true and it was needed at that time in my life. I learned much from John Scudder, but
there came a time when after 14 years I left his influence for reasons that are too involved to go into in a short space. Suffice it to say there is a time
when birds leave their nests.
Two years later, he died. Despite a few disagreements on certain principles I will always be grateful to him for all that he did for me.
And I think there are very many young people who would have fared better back in the 70's if they had had a living breathing teacher after getting in
"over their heads" with Casaneda's/ Don Juan's teachings.
Carlos may well have been one.
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all
things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
This I have also found to be true , but it took me a while to come to that realization. But even the Annointing of Spirit can use people to bring knowledge.
Along with circumstance, affirmations, dreams, visions and words of wisdom from sages and holy men from the past. It is all part of the teaching and nothing
should be refused when it presents itself. We should Watch and Listen because we are surrounded by "teachers."
That is something a good teacher teaches.
"...And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the STONEs
WOULD immediately CRY OUT."
We are surrounded by the unknown, call it the Nagual or the living universe or divine guidance. We are constantly being "spoken to" if we only
listen.
With each new endeavor that I begin I immerse myself in the subject matter. It is how I "tune in" my radio, so to speak. That is my method and seems
to work for me. Answers come in accordance to what I set my attention on. It takes some time but always seems to work well.
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Juan Matus was my teacher and I learned the safe guards from him and until I find another Juan Matus then that is my fate.
I know it may sound odd but the best that I can describe my perception is when I reach states of heightened awareness I know what the playing field is and also
know what is at stake and the battle of impeccability to further attain this awareness and I think that this is what D.J. referred to silent knowledge.
I keep trying to emphasize the need to change your perception whether it be natural or with power plants and until you attain a shift in your awareness then
you will be stuck with your narrow view that you cling onto other wise you may be suffering from mental masturbation syndrome also known as MMS when trying to
follow the warrior path.
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ARNWAY approximately wrote:
Juan Matus was my teacher, and I learned safe guards from him; and, until I find another Juan Matus, then that is my fate, to not have another teacher.
I feel the same way about Castaneda.
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"Juan Matus was my teacher..."
He was mine too if you count him. My first.
Problem is he doesn't count in the way I was using the term. I could only read what he wrote. I could not draw on his experience with questions about what
happened in my last meditation etc.
"I feel the same way about Castaneda."
Same there. He could not answer direct questions.
"I know it may sound odd but the best that I can describe my perception is when I reach states of heightened awareness I know what the playing
field..."
Whereas I changed my "playing field." Dreaming was not an option not having a teacher that put any stock in that method.
"..to further attain this awareness and I think that this is what D.J. referred to silent knowledge..."
And what mine referred to as "Wisdom" or "Knowing without having known." Same principle, different playing field, different source of
power.
"I keep trying to emphasize the need to change your perception.."
I have, many times and still do. Like I said different playing field. Though with my boys to the age where they are taking care of themselves I am putting more
time into medtation and trying some dreaming again out of curiosity having not gone too far in that direction previously.
"..you will be stuck with your narrow view that you cling onto.."
I feel the same about your path, but it's yours, not mine.
"..you may be suffering from mental masturbation syndrome.."
I hear that can cause mental blindness.
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Bob May wrote:
"I feel the same way about Castaneda."
Same there. He could not answer direct questions.
His value was in his ability to channel the nagual. That's all that counts on this path.
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Don Juan had power spots to make the nagual connections. Most naguals within their cities with pavement and disconnected people all around them would barely
perform. The nagual is out there..in the quiet spots, where there are no cars, no smog, no evils of mankind, only by accessing the power spots can a nagual
achieve higher evolution...and after saying that..I know the spirit is everywhere but to achieve inner silence seek it within and without.
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