Secrecy and silence

[Guest]

What I can see seems different than what I read about other people seeing.
I can see a person within their perceptions.
I explain it like this; We all live in the center of a world that is our perceptions. That is, the world surounds us as though it were superimposed on a concave sphere with us at the center.
From the vantage point of another person, the sphere is convex around the individual. That's what I seem to see.
What I seem to see is the world that the person carries around with them, not as they see it, but as a sphere around them.
There is no overall color I can detect, but by focusing on a detail on the surface of the sphere, I can see the color and shape of a jigsaw piece that comprises that part of their world.
I can also change the focus of my perceptions and see layers descending into the center.
Egg shaped is roughly correct in my perceptions, but not larger on the bottom. Maybe "oval" would be better.

[Bob May]

Hi Lightly,
From what I understand of aura is that it is an energy that surrounds the body and can be seen to change as the emotions/ thoughts change.
As I said before in scripture we were given "coats of skins", plural.
So, what is commonly believed about auras is that they must be "interpreted" by color and flaws and disconnected energy. It is a very changeable field of color or energy.
This does not fit with Don Juan's description of "direct knowing". I submit the idea that though auras are beyond most people's ability to percieve, they are not to the depth of layer that Don Juan is describing.
I have seen snatches of aura many times, but never clear as it is sometimes described in books. But, it seems to entail a familiarity with the meanings of the colors to sort out what you are seeing.
I have also experienced the direct knowing and vision of the fibers of light that Don Juan describes. It was, in my opinion a much deeper and more pure knowledge than what could be possible with anything that needed any interpretation at all.
But, I am of the opinion that direct knowledge or "Seeing" does not have to come on a person in that exact way that Don Juan describes. I have experienced direct knowledge at times that did not cocern people. In such a case, there would be no eggs or ovals at all. Direct knowing are the key words there and it speaks of something that can be experienced but not neccessarily explained and not necessarily experienced in exactly the same way by everyone.
I think it might be a matter of a very specific position of the assemblage point which was striven for in Don Juan's school of thought.
There are other schools of thought that may be striving for other specific outcomes, but the same basic experiences. We tend to work towards things that the founders of our chosen "schools of thought" have experienced and described. Yet we, if we have had any of these experiences, know that these experiences cannot be put into words without in some way diminishing them.
This is why I said that "direct knowledge" are the key words.
It's kind of like pornography, it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
By the way, here is a link to the book I mentioned before. The paintings may or may not be accurate, but the principles of different layers of or depths of seeing the human being would hold true.
www.anandgholap.net/Man_V...S_VEHICLES

[Guest]

Hello again, Bob.
Do you see something between my description and the classic understanding of auras that rule each other out?
I don't know why they couldn't both be true.
Perhaps "the energy" surrounding a person expresses itself as the concave world a person finds themselves within, or perhaps the concave world appears to be "energy", an ambiguous word, at best.
Perhaps, given the uncertainty of comparisn and description, it is possible that no one is in error.

[Bob May]

"Do you see something between my description and the classic understanding of auras that rule each other out?"
No, in fact Don Juan states that the world reflects back to us what we expect to see. He calls it our bubble of perception. And so does Jesus for that matter; "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."
My point was that there is more to us than the physical body and the aura. There seems to be a number of bodies and that according to one sytem of knowledge the description of what they call the "Causal" body seems to fit more closely with Don Juan's description of the luminus body than with the aura. This also went back to a coversation I had yesterday with another member of the forum.
I am not disagreeing with you, just exploring things you bring to mind. One thought leads to another and sometimes I just go with it.
Bob

[Guest]

I didn't sense a disagreement Bob.
Have you considered building your own model of what a man is, based on your own observations?
I imagine you would have some very interesting ideas.
There's also the idea that you might crystalize your own thinking, only to find parallels and analogs with the classic descriptions.
I'd think the trickiest part might be to actually start from scratch.

[Bob May]

"There's also the idea that you might crystalize your own thinking,.."
I try not to.
I have noticed and written on parallels in the Bible, Qabala and Don Juan's system because i've experienced a few things because of following these systems, and noticed quite a few similarities in these teachings. So, I've written on them here. But, try speaking on these things in a Christian church and you are asking for trouble. As far as seeing the egg/oval I have only experienced it a handful of times. I know there is validity to it but could not hope to describe it accurately. Seeing is not my gift. Neither is dreaming.
"I imagine you would have some very interesting ideas.
There's also the idea that you might crystalize your own thinking, only to find parallels and analogs with the classic descriptions."
It seems to me that the way it works, with me anyway, is that you make yourself open to spirit, you have an experience, and then only later do you recognise a description of a similar experience. This seems especially so with the Bible and Qabala.
It goes back to the secrecy thing and reasons for it. These books tell you how to live so that you will believe in something not readily available to normal waking consciousness. Then they teach you how to think so as not to block yourself. The description are given couched in symbols to both awaken and exercise another part of your mind and to not be so obvious that you make it up and kid yourself into thinking you have had this experience when in fact you have merely talked yourself into believing you have.
The coat of many colors is a good example. Before I had this experience, I would never had guessed that it was a description of a spiritual experience. After having had the experience there was no way that I could deny that it was a description of the experience that I had.
"...only to find parallels and analogs with the classic descriptions."
Classical descriptions, and maybe I'm not understanding it as you mean it, are largely based on paintings done hundreds of years after the fact by people who could not see or by movies made in Hollywood, also by people who could not see.
I will give you an analogy.
In a psychic developement class that I attended we would use the excercise of "gazing" at the flame of a candle in a dimly lit room. Some people in the class could see the aura right off. Some, it took some practice before they could see it. Some never did see it. All who saw the "aura" around the flame saw it as a perfectly round globe shape. Some saw colors, some did not.
Some months after beginning that class, I saw a still life painting of a candle on a table in a dimly lit room. The "aura" around the flame on the candle was multi- colored like a dim rainbow, and perfectly round.
I also saw a very similar painting by another artist who had the same style of still life. The only difference between the two paintings was that the first painting had a perfectly round globe-shaped aura around the flame. But the second had a flame-shaped aura around the flame.
My conclusion is that the second artist could not see the aura around the flame, but only painted what he thought it should look like or what he had inaccurately remembered seeing in another painting.
We get the same thing going on with paintings from the renaissance period and, of course, Hollywood.
Those people did not experience what they depicted.
They read that cloven tongues of flame fell on the disciples at Pentacost. They assumed that meant that one flame with three points upon it hovered over each head, so that is what they painted. Same thing happened with the halo/aura thing on statues. It looks as if someone nailed a fancy dinner plate to the back of someones head.
Small things maybe, but you would be amazed how those type of things warp the expectations of people.
If the artists and movie makers had had any real experiences they would have created much more interesting paintings and movies.
I'm not complaining though. When you experience something described in Scripture and it matches that description, and yet at the same time, does not in anyway match what your preconceived notions were based on these paintings and movies, it is just one more affirmation that what you are seeing or experiencing is true. You could not possibly have imagined it.
"It has not entered into the mind and hearts of man what God has in store for his children."
I think that says it all.
Bob

[Guest]

Interesting stuff, Bob.
The cult of candidates I've mentioned, values certain physical abilities some people have, and some people don't.
For instance, the type of "seeing" we teach to ourselves, can only be accomplished by someone who sneezes in sunlight.
If you don't sneeze in sunlight, you can't do it.
All Candidates have the ability to induce goose bumps on their flesh voluntarily. If you can't shrug up the electric feeling of "goose flesh", you can't be a Candidate.
I can imagine the confusion that would ensue if folks without these abilities tried to interpret the details of our gang.
Just like the kid in school who was double jointed. He could do things with his fingers no one else could do, but he was mostly chosen last when we chose teams for baseball.
The Candidates strongly suggest that these abilities are arbitrary, and not a result of spiritual development or evolution.
When I induce the electric feeling of tingly goosebumps in myself, I understand the metaphor of "stepping into an invisible stream".
I can also see how that description might be confusing to someone who needs expansive themes or inspirational music in order to feel "goose bumps".
There are some indication historically that the halo of Christian iconography is a carry over of the symbolic "solar disk" of pagan symbolism.
If you have no idea of otherwise, that can seem like a very naturalistic explanation for the common image of "the halo" we see in European paintings and statuary.
However, even if the halo can be traced historically through different cultures, it doesn't mean that it isn't actually available to some people as a perception.
It's thought that Money and Degas.. two painters known for their odd (and very beautiful) renderings, had eye diseases.
Perhaps they weren't being creative at all. Perhaps they were just rendering what they saw.
I know a fellow who joined the candidates about the same time I did, who can draw people and things with photorealism. He's very talented that way.
His renderings of the doings of Candidates make perfect sense to me, but I think they would be confusing to others.
I would think, that creating one's own map of what a human being is, might have value primarily for the act of "starting from scratch".
I believe that dropping all one's preconceptions and expectations about what a man is, could be, within itself, a productive and worthwhile exercise.
What you came up with as conclusions, might be as arbitrary and personal as anything anyone has found.
I also took interest in your lack of dreaming ability.
I'd like to post a technique the candidates use, that might be interesting to you.
I know we have a forum specifically for dreaming here, but I want to post this technique in this forum in the context of our discussion.
I'll have it soon.

[Guest]

Just btw, this is not an exhaustive rendering of the teachings of Candidates about dreaming. It's just one tool in the shed, so to speak.
Some people, particuarly those who have a certain schedule for a prolonged period of time, find that they don't need an alarm clock to wake themselves up on time to get to work.
They may habitually go to sleep and wake up at the same time every day.
Some people can adjust their internal clock with a little practice, and find that they can purposefully awaken themselves an hour earlier if they need to be at work early.
They find that they can "set themselves" with an act of will, and get up early if their schedule requires it.
To begin dreaming, a Candidate begins by trying to wake himself up at a prechosen hour, usually after four to six hours of sleep.
After some initial failures, most people can purposefully wake themselves up at say, four in the morning, and be within a few minutes of the clock.
That is the first gate of dreaming for a Candidate.
When a man has successfully made himself wake up within five or ten minutes of the preselected time, he has a small victory.
He has consciously commanded his dreaming self with his waking self. We say he's established a bridge of communication between waking and dreaming.
The next thing to do is to get out of bed and move around just a little. Most people find that having a light snack at this point is helpful.
Then you go back to bed for what's know as "the second sleep" or "the sorcerer's sleep".
Unanimously, people find their dreams to be more vivid and memorable. The sleep is lighter, the dreams are more vivid.
It is exponentially easier to find one's hands while asleep under these conditions. The candidates share the feature of "finding one's hands" with Nagualists.
No doubt, the writings of Castaneda have played a very influential role in our processes.
At any rate, a Candidate "sets himself" to dream using the same internal process he used to set himself to wake.
It's a very good well grounded technique that takes smaller steps at a time, than the techniques Carlos gave.
We also counsel people to cloak their dreaming in secrecy, but that's a different post.

[Bob May]

"I also took interest in your lack of dreaming ability.
I'd like to post a technique the candidates use, that might be interesting to you."
I think it seems to be a lack of remembering more than anything. I know I've had a few very interesting things happen, but the meories fade almost instantly upon awakening.
"I know we have a forum specifically for dreaming here, but I want to post this technique in this forum in the context of our discussion."
Your method looks interesting. I do tend to remember dreams more clearly after interupted sleep. I will give that a try.
Bob

[Bob Carr]

I don't know about Will in this case, but I do know about 'Biological Clocks'. Animal studies.
I have been fortunate to explore my own, and , even got some genealogical info that reaffirmed my experience in relation to optimal times of the day.
Needless to say, I ain't a farm boy; more a night owl.
I do understand that shift in habit and perception might change that, but I have not been there.
Bob CHawkeye and Crow

[Bob May]

Hi Lightly,
"Perhaps "the energy" surrounding a person expresses itself as the concave world a person finds themselves within, or perhaps the concave world appears to be "energy", an ambiguous word, at best.
Perhaps, given the uncertainty of comparisn and description, it is possible that no one is in error."
I see your point here, Kind of like "..seeing through a glass, but darkly.." as Paul describes our perceptual abilities or limits. But I see your suggestion as us carrying our particular "glass", so to speak around with us. This would color our world according to our level of perceptual abilities, personalities and attitudes etc.
I don't see that as being incompatable with any schools of thought that I know of. Just another facet to add to speculation. Each person's point of view different, yet able to agree upon certain things.
Here is a link to some painting of auras from C.W. Leadbeater. They are from a book of his "Man Visible and Invisible" from about 1902.
Also a Kirlian photo of myself and my wife immediately prior to and after our wedding ceremony. As far as I know it is the only experiment like this that has been done.
www.esnips.com/web/Auras
BobBob

[Vrill]

Quote:How can stopping the world help us in daily life?
This is a wonderful question!
"Stopping the World" is an experience that perhaps we recognize after the fact, as Bob so aptly put, through recognition of parable and analogy.
If our motivation and intention is right, then we naturally want to help other people. We may want to do this but we may not have the means or know how. We don't feel true compassion for anyone as we are too absorbed in our own problems.
When we start out in life, unless we are incredibly fortunate, we identify with our problems and sufferings and blame others for our situation.
One of the least understood parables of Jesus was ...
Quote:How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the mote out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? ... first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
In other words, work on yourself ...
Most of us, quite frankly don't live in Reality. We live in a Matrix-like fabrication of reality that we take as reality. And we are too proud to question it.
We might want to wake up, but we haven't a clue. Our attempts at meditation are a sham as we haven't the first idea of what to do.
If however through some miracle of unimaginable conditions, the impossible occurs and we have a glimpse of Objective Reality we can then we can begin to "know", that is experientially cognize the truth as it happens from moment to moment.
So... personally, prior to my own experience, I had no clue.
Now, as is often the case, I still have no clue. It's just that now I ... I know, that I don't know.
If you know you don't know, you know. You know?
It's a paradox, that's why I make a joke of it.
Really the path starts with a glimpse of Truth. Stopping the World is the point where one's identification shifts. For a moment at least, we no longer believe we are who we think we were. But a moment is all it takes!
The first step is to admit you don't have any idea, to open up and question.
But I have a notion, Truth is out there looking for you as well.

[Bob May]

Hi Vrill,
"So... personally, prior to my own experience, I had no clue.
Now, as is often the case, I still have no clue. It's just that now I ... I know, that I don't know.
If you know you don't know, you know. You know?
It's a paradox,.."
And the more we realize this, the more we realize how ignorant we are. Because we begin to understand that the the Unknown is a much larger "place" than we could ever have imagined.
"But I have a notion, Truth is out there looking for you as well."
I have come to the conclusion that we were given even the Desire to seek. Why do we care? How many people who we meet on the street or are aquainted with compared to how many don't seem to give these things a second thought.
Why are we so fortunate (or unfortunate depending on your perspective) as to make this "seeking" such an important aspect of our lives?
Bob

[Vrill]

Quote:Why are we so fortunate (or unfortunate depending on your perspective) as to make this "seeking" such an important aspect of our lives?
Hi Bob!
Tibetans Lamas put a very big emphasis on us valuing the fortunate circumstances that we find ourselves in if we have discovered even a very small glimmering of Truth, or if be by either karmic connection or circumstance come in contact with great teachers and teachings.
So I count myself as very wealthy in that regard, and I can't say it was other than a kind of Synchronicity or Luck.
In my twenties, in one weekend, I met Carlos and then the 16th Karmapa, all while hitchiking to see friends. It was totally unplanned. For a long time I lost contact all with Tibetans, but now I have a study group in my own backyard!
I had always wanted to study Tibetan Mahamudra teachings, which is one of the Crown Jewel practices and was held very closely for a long time. Hooking up with this group was also meant to happen I think. Then again I feel a sense of urgency here. I'm not getting any younger.
But ...
The secret is very simple. ...

We always, always, always, get what we need.
But some part of us has to be awake in Reality to see what we need. And what we want and what we need are very different things.
If a person is either a sheep or a machine, they won't see it, or value it and they will be the grist for the millwheels of Karma. The Wise try to prevent that, and are given assistance as we as well. Gurdjieff called this "the Terror of the Situation". In other words our predicament as humans is much worse than we can possibly imagine. It is so bad in fact that we just self-medicate, or go to sleep.
So we have 2 actions going on. 2 movements.
The movement of the Karmic Wheel and the movement of the Dharmic Wheel. The grasping, winding movement of Karma, the unwinding letting go of Dharma.
If we somehow align ourselves with the Dharma, then we are given "help".
I say "help" in quotation marks because sometimes "help" might be a slap in the face, it may not look like of feel like help.
But if we affirm "this is what I need" then we can use it to our advantage.
I firmly believe that if we are aiding the Dharma or truly doing God's work, then we will be aided.
Quote:And the more we realize this, the more we realize how ignorant we are. Because we begin to understand that the the Unknown is a much larger "place" than we could ever have imagined.
Zen Master Seung Sahn was a proponent of "Don't Know Mind". It's very big in the Korean Zen community. I got to have a workshop with him once at the Lama Foundation in Taos, btw.
Thomas A Kempis descibed it as the Cloud of Unknowing. Others call it the Dark Night of the Soul.
Practicing "Don't Know Mind" is something we can do. It opens us to "what is".
The action of "what is" or Great Reality upon our feeble brains is a kind of shock.
If this action is repeated enough then we can create the conditions for growing our soul. In other words, self initiation of the Alchemical process.
"Not Knowing" is the key.
Ignorant people don't get it, they don't care.
Quote:"They don't know. They don't wanna know."
And they should care as they pay the price every day for their heedlessness.
Being selfish and ego-centric will cost you ... everything.

[Bob May]

"So we have 2 actions going on. 2 movements.
The movement of the Karmic Wheel and the movement of the Dharmic Wheel. The grasping, winding movement of Karma, the unwinding letting go of Dharma."
Sounds a lot like Law and Grace.
"We always, always, always, get what we need."
And that sounds like an awareness of Grace.

[Vrill]

I think they are the same thing, Law and Grace, I am not really that familiar with it as applied to Mysticism.
The movement of Desire, that produces negative Karma can be observed within ourselves. It's something we can study.
Buddhist's describe it as a kind of clinging. But since we can watch it in ourselves we can develop our own familiarity with the movement. The movement of clinging, grasping, desire and also aversion. Sometimes it feels like fishhooks in your gut, pulling. It's a very palpable sensation.

[Bob May]

"The movement of Desire, that produces negative Karma can be observed within ourselves. It's something we can study.
But since we can watch it in ourselves we can develop our own familiarity with the movement. The movement of clinging, grasping, desire and also aversion. Sometimes it feels like fishhooks in your gut, pulling. It's a very palpable sensation."
The seat of the subconscious mind is in the solar plexus. Just as the seat of the conscious mind is in the brain. It is the largest conglomeration of nerve cells (gray matter) in the body. Fear and embarrassment, anger and things from our past that "bother" us can be felt there instantly when brought to mind. It is symbolised by the Pharoah in Egypt in the O.T. "Let my people ("children of Israel" or spiritual thoughts) go", is the beginning of extracating ourselves from the bondage of the lower emotions.
Meditations involving "Body awareness" and "Mind awareness" help us to separate ourselves from these emotions. There are of course equivalent exercises in other schools of thought. But this was the method I was taught.

[avadhut1008]

Silence and secrecy in occult affairs has reasons acording to different scenarios:
In a cult of half-baked, pompous occultists the silence and secrecy obbeys a self-defense mechanism (aboid persecution and the eye of the public in the cult affairs). Also, the silence and secrecy give the cultist an air of mistery that atracts gullible and/or greedy seekers to be exploited by the cult leadership (including money, sex and free labour).
The half-baked leadership will have some knowledge and shallow experience in a number of spiritual traditions and will justify their "rare" (unethical) actions by saying that they are "crazy wisdom actions" to teach or "test" the naive seeker.
No need to give examples... they are abundant.
------
In the case of real individuals it's very different. A true perfected or advanced individual will have spiritual power (unlike the half-baked, that may have little or none), a rather discrete teaching place (or none) and will not accept disciples that are spiritually inmature. He will be mostly evasive and test in many ways the potential would-be disciple until sincere aspiration is demostrated. After that he will initiate, empower and guide his disciple in a deep and secret spiritual practice.
Secrecy and silence are, in this case, to aboid the interference of the spiritual mission of the teacher and to protect the spiritual development of his disciples. If a teacher has to deal with inmature persons all the time he can't help those who will actually take his teaching to the full extent to become teachers themselves.
True teachers are very rare indeed.

[Bob May]

Hi Avadhut,
And welcome by the way.
I would agree with what you've said and would add a few other reasons for secrecy.
There is a principle in the occult that I once read in a book by Dion Fortune. She said "that is a key that I will not give you. If you could use it you could find it yourself."
Sometimes a teacher will not spell things out to a student in too much detail. The student is supposed to find a way to use the principles taught to him and use them in his or her own ways.
Another instance or instances can be details left out by the teacher regarding the description of specific spiritual experiences. These details will be recognised by the student and related back to the teacher. This safeguards against halucination by a student wanting to experience what he has heard and only imagining it.
The "keys" are always left out so that this cannot happen.Bob

[avadhut1008]

Hi Bob:
Glad to be here. It's a nice place to distract and learn a little while I work some karma out.
I would add something more:
True teachers with spiritual power don't need to do extensive talks and explanations. They radiate an spiritual light and power that will pervade those who are open to it, giving them a boost-of-spiritual-power and the answers they want. They tend to commune on a higher sphere.
For example, once I meet in a chat room (highly unusual!) a very developed individual... I think he said he was a Quaballah master... I don't remember... he was trained in some middle east tradition.
The thing is that just reading him gave me an enormous boost-of-power. As I read the reactions of the people in the chat room it was clear to me that I was the only one getting it. Some people asked questions and he said that if they silenced their minds they would get the answers in their causal bodies.
Don Juan caused a similar effect in Castaneda and explained that "For some people just the presence of an impeccable warrior is enough to move the AP"
Excuse my english, it's not my mother tongue.

[Bob May]

"For example, once I meet in a chat room (highly unusual!) a very developed individual... I think he said he was a Quaballah master... I don't remember... he was trained in some middle east tradition."
My path was one of the qabala as was my teacher's. He also went through a spontaneous awakening of the kundalini. There were times when people could not be in the same room with him because of the "bath" of K energy. So, I know by experience of the effects a person can feel in the presence of a man who is able to touch power at will.
But still there are "keys" left out. Details not put into print or given by the teacher to the student. Instead, during an experience, a student recognises these keys and relates them to the teacher thus confirming to both teacher and student the veracity of that experience.
We used to have weekend long meditations once a month or so and I've seen this technique used many times in many ways.
Any two people having had the same spiritual experience, will recognise another's description of that experience by the way they describe it.
My teacher and Gopi Krishna having both gone through the same experience of spontaneous awakening of Kundalini are a good example. Gopi tried to find a "holy man" in India to help him survive his ordeal, but they could not help him not having went through this themselves. In fact, one got so sick he could not stay in the same room with Gopi.
Bob

[avadhut1008]

Incidentally this "charlatan_self" (that was his yahoo! alias) told us all about his rather disturbing awakening and ascension of his kundalini shakti.
He was going insane... but after that, he could reach his causal body in a second.
About the keys... is the work of the student to learn. Masters won't do but the necesary.Excuse my english, it's not my mother tongue.

[watergaze]

(Unregistered) Quote:



Consider for a moment, a man who goes to a psychiatric counselor for help with raging emotional upset within him.


The counselor's strategy is to get the man to talk about his problems. If the man can address his emotional upset, the psychic pressure of his upset will
lessen.


Should he deny, or otherwise be able to suppress his emotions, the psychic pressure from those feelings will increase.



Bob May wrote:

I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with
secrecy.



It is said of trauma that when you start to see a story in there that is the beginning of the cure. If one is too deep in trauma one cant make sense of things,
one cant even talk about them well. Things are mixed and make no sense.


Also dont forget that tales have power. You can create and recreate yourself many times in tales just by telling them. This could also be true for the psych.
patient.




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Quote:

Consider also for a moment, the Christian injunction to do charitible work in secrecy. If a man speaks about his charity out in the open, the psychic
pressure of this virtue will lessen. Should he suppress his charity, it will grow within him. A man will grow more charitable

Yep, sure. Here it is like a safety net for the weak and easily puffed up people. But actually even those that are silent may take comfort in the
fact that had other people known that they would think good of them. If one has this bent in his/her personality, there is no escape from it. Not with hiding
it or by trying to avoid it. The best way is to confront it. Realize it is taking place and do away with it. No games…


A truly good and strong person wouldnt care if he/she is praised or not, it makes no difference to him/her and so would not take special measures to hide it or
to show it.


Of course it might be troublesome for the person so he/she might prefer to be rather out of public view, nothing wrong with that, but taking super great
precautions so that it is a secret, that signals something hidden somewhere…


(I also agree with what Bob May wrote in response to this)




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Quote:

In all cultures where it has existed, the entire range of human activity we think of as "magic" has been held as secret. The techniques and
practices of the witch grow within "the power of silence". Talking too much can "empty your bag" so to speak.

Sure, speaking too soon can "empty your bag". But it doesn't mean you have to be silent your whole life. Why magic has been a secret
is also so that no power is lost, so that only the select know the secrets. Its like this in every trade.




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Quote:

Many commenters on magic have indicated a real paranoia of what others might do or think if they knew the secrets of a magical organization.




I propose here, that the real benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open. That which is kept within us unexpressed grows.

The benefit of secrecy is that magic will not exist in the open? Look where that has got us. I think what CC did with making the secrets public
helped a lot of people all over the world. Had secrets not been revealed many of us would not be where we are today.


Bob May says to this:

Bob May wrote:

Again, I've never thought of it quite like that in regards to secrecy and magic, but it certainly is true with negative emotions, like holding grudges
and forced abstinance from sexual activity. Catholic priest are a good example.

It is true in the negative things, but if we share positive things with positive people they grow. The problem is sharing positive things with not
positive people, that is where the trouble comes from for most people.




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That to which we give naming, shrinks away.

That to witch we give name is born for us... (it does not mean it cannot grow)


Often we can grasp a thing thanks to its name. The importance of the name (even in the bible) is important in many occult practices. Knowing something by its
name gives us a certain power. We can call upon beings that we know by name. Often beings have many names. This may not only put emphasis on their different
qualities, it also shows how people in a specific age/era saw these beings and how the perception of these beings changed. It also makes us aware of the
complexity of these beings.


Sometimes we can better store an experience if we name it. This name would then mirror our experience at that perticular time (we can always rename things
later, after we learn more).



Bob May wrote:

To name is to put borders around something, to define it. What if our definition is only partial? We block ourselves from further learning.

Precisely this is not what should be happening… naming a thing in itself does not block ourselves, we block ourselves. If we dont give names to
things it does not mean we do not block ourselves (but it may even result in the thing eluding us, because we have no way to grasp it).





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The act of naming things makes things shrink. To know the name of something, to use it in an act of naming, is to diminish it.




This odd convolution is tricky to deal with at first, but it's not a difficult idea. The dynamic is all around us constantly. As the human mind goes
through life naming everything, as we do, it all diminishes.

This is because people are stupid and think that they can label things into cute little folders and after they do so they do not observe them
anymore. A warrior takes nothing for granted, right..?





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The "quiet mind" technique of stopping the internal dialogue that Carlos wrote about will diminish the naming of the world, giving one an amplified
sense of being.

The "quiet mind" indeed stops the internal dialogue but that does not mean no names are created. It may mean, however, that it
diminishes, though id say if i see something special i am more prone to name it when my mind is quieted (dont know what degree of silence you are talking
about, and there is no way to know i guess), because i realize the speciallity of the things in a stronger way. So you may see a branch hanging from a tree in
normal talking awareness and you just pass it by, seeing it - a branch hanging from a tree. Then you can pass by it in a silent mode and realize how wonderous
and alive it is and then a name for it pops into your head and that is what it is for you from then on, you realize there are many of these types of hanging
branches in the forest. This name is connected from then on to that specific experience and that specific phenomena at that time at that place (not to say you
may not find it then elsewhere and at other times). Now, do you diminish the thing? Dont you rather enlarge it (considered how you looked at it before)? (Also
consider if it is not an enlarging of the self - connected to what is said below)





Quote:

As one names the world around them, it is the self that diminishes. The convolutions never end. The power of silence, or secrecy, as it's sometimes been
called, flips everything.




That's the secret of naming.

I see how one can make the statement of diminishing the thing and diminishing oneself. But we are not diminishing ourselves because at that point
we name what we perceive and in that name is our whole perception. So we cannot diminish ourselves, true we may diminish the thing with our ignorance but had
we not names it the thing would not be more whole to us anyway. So, it does not mean you are diminishing the subject for yourself, because that is how you
perceive it at that moment, BUT this is how one grows. You find something and discover a certain aspect of it, you name this thing with the aid of this aspect,
or the name in your mind gets connected to that aspect. Now you learn further, and learn other aspects of the thing and so you rename the subject that is
named. This is how it should work. As you strive for a better and better understanding, as you get slowly to the wholeness of the thing, your naming also
mirrors this evolution. Its not a bad thing to name something even when one has not grasped the wholeness of the thing one names. Thanks to the names one gets
in connection with it and has a remembrance of the subject.




You know beings have many names, it does not mean that one name diminishes them, it is more like it focuses on a certain aspect of them. Thanks to the many
names one realizes the complexity of the being.


(But you also don't necessarily need to give a new name after you've moved up a level in perceiving the named thing, you just need to reattach the
things you've learned to the old name. Sure for someone else it might seem as the same thing, but for you.. ah, you know better what you all have in
there.. this is why words are so tricky, and communication as well)




Children, that is another topic. Had they not learned to "shrink" things by the society what would they be like? How would they perceive the wordl?
How would they be able to grasp it? Since things happen as they happen, children naturaly learn as they learn, from the other people around them, we may assume
that that is how it naturally is. That they need to get this grasp, even if it "shrink" the world.




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Now there needs to be an exception, or I couldn't tell anyone such things. In a while I'll post about how the exceptions have to happen in order not
to drain off the magic.

Hm?




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We all have secrets. They can work for us or against us, by amplyfying the the secret, generally, if we are unpracticed or unfamiliar with it, having the
opposite effect of what we might desire.




Perhaps you've told everyone at your workplace that you're five years younger than you actually are. Your secret becomes "how old you are".
That secret will speed your aging process. Fortunately you probably didn't have to adamantly insist on your lie, and the effect will be slight.




On the other hand, if you told everyone you were five years older than you actually were, your secret becomes "how young you are", and just like in
the experiment above, your youngness increases.


Denial makes things larger.

Im not sure about this, but if it is like that then id say it is because of your obsession. But surely it depends on the point of view, from where
you look. As in the opposite case you describe.


Anyway, then youd cross off the positive efects of autohypnosis? That when you say to yourself out loud even that you feel good that you actually start to feel
bad? Or rather I guess you mean that when you start saying to other people that you feel good that you start feeling bad . Well, does not work like that for
me thank god. When i feel bad it makes me better when i say so, and when i feel good it makes me better when i say so, or at least does not change my good
feeling (but i dont feel the need to go and tell everybody). This is how things should be in my humble oppinion .





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Inversion..




Secrecy is one example of the desires of people working against them.




It is said that should a man wish to understand himself, he has to forget about himself, and seek to understand the world around him.




That being said, should a man wish to understand the world around him, he must forget about the world around him, and look within himself for answers.

In other words… forget about his obsession




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Quote:

Secrecy can be for the safety of those who would apply certain teachings without proper supervision. The dangers of doing certain sorcery applications
improperly are very dangerous!

You hear this very often, a lot of people harbor this idea… However I think it is more dangerous to withhold knowledge than to let it circulate…
If one has a proper account of how to do it, one would not do it improperly. Of course I believe that if you do not have energy required to do something you
just cant do it, no matter what somebody tells you or what you read (I find truth in what DJ said: "if we don't have enough personal power, the most
magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.").


Its because knowledge is made secret that false gurus can strive and people do things that lead them eventually to problems.





Quote:

I can understand secrecy having a dangerous edge. There are sayings like "you are only as sick as your secrets" and obsession naturally occurs with
secrecy.

Yep. Id say that obsession may result in secrecy and that secrecy may result in obsession. Of course it can also be said that not being able to
shut up about something is an obsession. As with all thing even with silence and talking the best is to have an equilibrium. A lot of secret societies thought
themselves privileged etc, its not a good way of losing self-importance in those cases. It depends on the bent of ones personality, if one is becoming puffed
up by silence then he/she should talk, if one is puffed up by speaking then he/she should be silent.




Of course Im not saying one should talk about everything, im just challenging the rigid ideas about silence and its great effects. It sure makes no sense to go
on talking about magical things to everyone around you and be a magnet for their attention, remarks of various sorts, etc, that might be quite an energy drain.


But just how much have all the people in power controlled the masses by their power to control information. By putting some things under secrecy the world
changes. The Vatican has a secret library with all sorts of books that only the privileged can access, with texts surely believed to be destroyed long ago on
various topics… Secrets, secrets. They surely have reasons for keeping them secret.




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Quote:

I know another application of secrecy. It's an imaginary apple. If you try to imagine an apple sitting on your desk, it can be very difficult to hold the
picture of that apple consistently, but if you use a little trick, you can make it a lot easier.




Just make the apple a secret. Lie about it to someone. Ideally, they will argue with you about it, and make it more solid.




You will see that the mental imsge of the apple will be easier to hold in your mind afterwards.


Lie about it? Im not sure if you mean say to somebody there is no apple, or say that there is an apple . Anyhow, id say that bringing the apple
into conversation is what makes it more real, whether you say this or that it helps you focus your attention on the apple.




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So basically what the Unregistered people here argue is that when you don't tell something it is more real than if you say so. Well, we all know the silent
feeling (joy, fear, falling in love, almost any kind of feeling) of something which changes after we tell it to someone. Id generally say that it is
recommended to have a period of silence after certain experiences in order to take them in. After one has done so, one can talk about it, the taking in can be
invariably long.


A nice DJ quote: "It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do, everything we are, rests on
our personal power.




I very much agree with what Vrill says here:



Vrill wrote:

Regarding, secrets. I have had many aperceptions that occur on a non-verbal level. Knowledge comes in many ways and speaking of it is impossible.




The saying "Those who know ... don't tell" is translated incorrectly.




Those who know, can't tell. They want to desperately, but they can't because there are no words for what they know!!!




But actually that's not even entirely true.




There are those with great skill, and they know and can tell and lead others to the truth.

Bob May replies to this:

Bob May wrote:

That is very true. Spiritual things cannot be put into words. Or even if they are, they are interpreted in terms of hard cold matter, so the words lose their
meaning somewhere between the one relating the experience and the listener's understanding.

Id say this connects to what ive said about words and communication above




And I agree with what was said by avadhut and Bob May about teachers and not saying more than is necessary, and with the discreteness.

[watergaze]

Bob May I have a question, you say:



Bob May wrote:

By it's very nature, you must stop the world in order to see.

Stopping the world is an experience that one cant miss, right? Because by my experience I have no idea then where I have stopped the world (since
you say one cant see without it). I had the little stoppings that I did, but not one breakthrough event of stopping the world, that id recognize as such.


Or do you just mean to say that while seeing the world is stopped?(this would make sense, otherwise one could not stop the normal awareness interpretation) So
it is like one of those little stoppings. Hm?




And can you explain what does the snapping noise at the end of ones head mean? What does it do? CC often describes this, but he does not have such a change in
the world after it as you wrote about. (Im asking because I also experienced this noise, while relaxed, unmoving, lying in bed and seeing a vision world).

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